~Tome of The Dragmire~ v1.5

[SN3S]

The Fair IS auto-lag cancellable. You just have to jump, dj-a really fast. I just hit y with the tip of my thumb and then flatten it onto the A button almost at the same time. It's kind of hard, but gets easier and easier as you try it out, and man is it scary looking ^_^. As far as uses, I can only see it being viable in teams, 1vs1 at low percents, or as a mindgame.

The Nair is auto lag cancellable just by full jumping, and then the bair/uair auto lag cancel regardless. On the subject of the bair, someone mentioned they couldn't hit short characters with it; you can, you just have to delay it almost as you would a ground-based uair in melee. It doesn't have any more sex-kick properties .

On the topic of Bunny Stomping/Thunder Storm, are you guys saying you can short hop dair and have it auto lag cancel?? I haven't been able to do that, but then again I didn't try because I could already full jump auto lag cancel it easily and that suited my purposes well enough.. but if I can short hop it..... Ganon is officially broken o.O.

Yeah, I short hop it with the analog stick and then throw the C-stick down. Works every time. Thanks for the tips on the other though, that'll help my ganon a lot.

 

[:034:]

Oh, almost forgot..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SK16zTBzIQQ

'Platform Cancelling' is basically jumping up to a moving platform or a platform on a moving stage, pressing down and immediatly using the C-Stick or tilt. I'll try it a bit, I don't see how it could be useful for Ganondorf seeing he has some pretty bad start up (save for upsmash which is pretty good).. But, hey, I'll try it and see if it works (unless somebody else wants to try it before me).

AND.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7Q2gfVEf0k

In your dash, smash or tilt down on the C-Stick, then amazingly quickly press Up+Z and you will do a sliding upsmash, going as far maybe half of Final Destination. Seeing Ganon's Upsmash with some pretty good front range already, this should be pretty good when sliding. Don't think I'll get much of a slide, but I'll try. If anybody could do it and then put it in a vid, that'd be cool.

 

[SN3S]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7Q2gfVEf0k

In your dash, smash or tilt down on the C-Stick, then amazingly quickly press Up+Z and you will do a sliding upsmash, going as far maybe half of Final Destination. Seeing Ganon's Upsmash with some pretty good front range already, this should be pretty good when sliding. Don't think I'll get much of a slide, but I'll try. If anybody could do it and then put it in a vid, that'd be cool.

Holy crap... If you can go that far with Ganondorf... it'd be awesome if you can time it right. Instant Dthrow Followup?

 

[:034:]

Holy crap... If you can go that far with Ganondorf... it'd be awesome if you can time it right. Instant Dthrow Followup?

Well, I tried it, and it's not working. Heh. It's actually really easy to go far with Link, so I got the timing down first with Ganondorf, and you only go a bit further than Hyphen Smashing from your initial dash. Not really worth the trouble, since it's really hard to do with Ganondorf for some reason.

Have yet to try the platform cancel thing though.

 

[SN3S]

Well, I tried it, and it's not working. Heh. It's actually really easy to go far with Link, so I got the timing down first with Ganondorf, and you only go a bit further than Hyphen Smashing from your initial dash. Not really worth the trouble, since it's really hard to do with Ganondorf for some reason.

Have yet to try the platform cancel thing though.

Yeah, sadly it can work for Ganondorf, but he barely moves forward at all. It's better to just hyphen smash in his case.

It's ironic, because it's like this for all the other characters I play as, except falco.

 

[Cdbobo]

So I tried it and sure enough, yup you can short hop the Dair. Woot . People always assume they can punish you after you tried to kill them at 40%, but nope... jab to the face ^_^. Once I get Bunny stomping and the lagless fair down I'll really start busting heads... and that sliding Upsmash I'll have to try when I'm off work.

 

[Ganny]

Short hopping dairs are really fun to use against slow characters like Ike. I bet if you dodged Ike's attack you can respond with it and eventually kill him with it. Classic.

 

[Pururun]

I figured out something the other day. Ganon can stop pit's arrows with his jab. Just push A with the right timing, and that fist will crush those so-called blessed arrows It might get a bit tricky to time after a while, especially if the opponent catches on, but it'll give you another option for some approach/defense against that wily angel...

You can do this with all characters and most attacks.
I think it works best with Ganondorf's shoulder charge or grounded wizard's foot since you stay in the attack animation long enough for you to negate the projectile.
These attacks won't block Samus' fully charged shot or the space animal lasers though.

Gah.. Just tried it in training mode, the wizard's foot only blocks it for half of the duration after the purple cloud appears, the other half he's vulnerable to projectiles.

 

[thedarkhand]

I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet, and I've checked it out a couple times, because of the way ganon holds his hand on the back air he loses that useful hitbox below him. I think the hit box is somewhere between the knees and the toes, but definitely not below him.

 

[<π]

forward B does instantly grab the ledge you just need to be lower than you think to do it. the ledge has to be level with your head it won't catch if your arms are level or above it.

 

[Stalfoe]

Didn't see this posted anywhere and I'm not going to bother looking because the server will probably decide to stop working for me (if this gets posted it was a miracle) but I'm pretty sure there are SAF on the flame choke.

 

[tehSANDMAN]

Yea, during the time when ganon holds the opponent up into the air there is SA...which doesn't help in 1v1 really , but it makes it seem like ganon is definitely more useful in teams.

 

[Stalfoe]

It's useful in 1v1. The frames start when you make contact with your opponent, so anything like a jab or a tilt (maybe stronger moves, haven't tested) will be overpowered and you will choke them. I don't think it works with swords though, I think you have to be touching a part of the enemy.

 

[Magus420]

It's useful in 1v1. The frames start when you make contact with your opponent, so anything like a jab or a tilt (maybe stronger moves, haven't tested) will be overpowered and you will choke them. I don't think it works with swords though, I think you have to be touching a part of the enemy.

That's not a good thing when that happens. Pretty sure that's just the grab from the over-B trading hits with the attack when it's right when it makes contact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeuXNw5P3G4

If that happened in Melee you would get the choke on them and not take ANY damage from the attack since grabs had full priority over attacks before.

 

[Stalfoe]

It's a good thing no matter how you put it. Even if it isn't SAF (pretty sure we can't test it), it works the same way so you can't be interrupted and go straight on with your attack.

 

[Magus420]

No. It's a bad thing no matter how you put it since it's just the result of grabs being nerfed in general. That aspect is not unique to his over-B. It's just the properties of every grab based move in Brawl.

Perhaps there IS actual super armor while he's already holding them so that it doesn't get interrupted if hit by someone else, which would be a good thing (though not incredibly useful).

Grabs now trading hits with attacks instead of having COMPLETE priority over them is definitely not a positive thing however. That's like saying it's better to take ~20% from a f-smash and land the over-B to get like 8-16% than it is to take NO damage at all and get the over-B since the attack doesn't even get to hit you.

 

[Stalfoe]

It's a good thing.

I didn't say anything about it compared to Melee, nor whether or not grab attack mechanics have been improved for brawl. I said it I was pretty sure it had SAF, which is GOOD because you can't be interrupted (or at least have less of a chance to be). It grabs through an enemy's attack, so in that it is useful in 1v1 (which is BETTER than getting flinched). There is no way to test if the actual grab is SAF because there is no animation if you don't connect with anything, and we already know it has SAF when doing the actual attack in a multiple brawl.

 

[Magus420]

Believe what you want, lol.

When it trades with an attack it isn't SAF and it is not good. Well... I suppose they COULD have made it so you randomly blow up and get instant KOed whenever your grab trades with an attack, so it's a GOOD thing it just trades hits instead =P

Also, you can test it with a 3rd person hitting him just as he connects it on another.

 

[Stalfoe]

Glad we could be mature about this.

 

[InvincibleAgent]

Anyone else think they should have cloned Ganondorf off of SAMUS, not Falcon? Then his B and >B would be accurate to what is in OoT. Obviously, there's no cannon, and the charging would be up, not to the side, and the >B projectile could be easily reflected, etc. I guess they were right to keep the Wizard's foot as vB, though. But WTF? Samus is a clear base for what is accurate Ganondorf.

 

[Kio Iranez]

Samus for Ganon...?

*shrug*

Ike should have never existed while Ganon took his place. >;3

 

[Dragmire]

a nice bit of info I found while ganon ****** all day that and I didn't see it on the first page

the Fair: it has a nice under reach that does still hit but I noticed with that under hit of the punch it seems like more knockback. just a notice could anyone see if this is true?

 

[Josiah]

a nice bit of info I found while ganon ****** all day that and I didn't see it on the first page

the Fair: it has a nice under reach that does still hit but I noticed with that under hit of the punch it seems like more knockback. just a notice could anyone see if this is true?

This guy found that out.

 

[Dragmire]

I suppose but it's still a technique I will need to use more often in battle

not really important but I posted before him

 

[DarkSpidey13]

anyone else noticed that Ganon invulnerable from projectiles during the Warlock Punch? i think the SAF start when he pulls his hand back.


also, i've found that short hopping the Flame Choke is super effective. you lose your super armor since he doesn't hold them over his head, but he does more damage. and during 1v1's, the super armor on that move doesn't matter anyway.

also, i highly recommend that anyone who hasn't perfected the lagless Thunder Drop do that...it'll bring your Ganon to a whole new level.

 

[Dragmire]

2nd statement not true except for the damage part

super armor just has a shorter period of effect but just today mario(brother) vs ganon(me) I super s armor ganoncided I'll try to get a video soon.

 

[Magus420]

If it was 1vs1 you most likely just traded hits and wasn't SA. In real time it looks like SA since you take damage and you grab them like what would happen with SA, but it's not.

 

[Dragmire]

oh really well I guess he was right and I just got lucky then cool

 

[Sharky]

No mention of flame choke to jab? It works on characters that aren't low to the ground when lying down. (example: it'll work on wario, cause he's fat, but not squirtle, cause he's tiny)

 

[Josiah]

If you've got them at the edge with pretty high damage, flame choke to ftilt makes a nice finisher. Pretty much the same rules on who the ftilt will hit like that as with the jab though.

Dunno if someone's already said this, but I've found that with practice you can kinda sorta infinite edge hog with the forward-B, though I have no idea how vulnerable you are doing that, I haven't tried it outside of training mode yet. However, if the opponent's right by the edge, you might get lucky and be able to punish them with a Ganoncide.

 

[Dragmire]

the flame choke thing is indeed true unless someone jumps in front of you then a ganoncide occurs

not bad for that combo though but it's a rare occurance

 

[Josiah]

Well, in some situations, like if you're a lot more damaged than they are and want to even the field for example, that's one way to do it.

It's a real insult especially if they're at or near 0% when you get them with that.

EDIT: I did some more tinkering around with the Ganoncide as an anti-edgeguard, and I think in some situations it's a viable tactic. (Some situations being pretty much any situation where a Ganoncide might be considered in other circumstances besides this.) Basically, the opponent has to be at the very edge, or pretty close to it for it to work. You drop and immediately jump up and away from the edge, which theoretically will put you a safe distance away from most attacks, and forward-B. If done right you can get your hand as high as just above the level, though it doesn't necessarily have to be that high for it to work. If the opponent dodges in place or rolls it's ok, you'll just drop and grab the edge again. However, you might be setting yourself up for being edge hogged if you spam this; an opponent could get in there in between these without getting grabbed, but probably only if you're that predictable about it.

Obviously, use your best judgment on this. It might be harder to do this on some edges, against certain characters (like one with a sword), etc. I haven't been able to try this out against other players, but I'm optimistic about it. I have a replay somewhere of it working against a Game & Watch (his dsmash missed and he got grabbed). If it works in practice, it makes a nice "Haha, sucker!!" move.

 

[Tenki]

Any comments on Flame Choke-->D-tilt?

I saw a video of someone doing that combo, and it seems that it works on some characters, similar to the Flame Choke-->Jab, though I didn't pay attention to which chars it worked against.

 

[Dragmire]

doesn't work unless the person isn't responsive enough to evade but 90% of the time the opponent will evade it

 

[Pururun]

doesn't work unless the person isn't responsive enough to evade but 90% of the time the opponent will evade it

This isn't true at all.
Test this out. Have a friend come over and attempt to roll away. Right after the flame choke(Use wii remote and nunchuck for best results).

Tilt the control stick down very slightly while jamming on the A button(You can practice it by just flame choking thin air and try to go straight down to a d-tilt, if you mess up, the animation isn't smooth and you go into crouching frames for a while)

This is a guaranteed hit on the following: Mario, Kirby, Fox, Pikachu, Game and Watch, Luigi, Zelda, Sheik, Pit, Metaknight, Charizard, Ivysaur, Ike, Peach, Yoshi, Dedede, Ness, Sonic, ROB, T.Link, Jigglypuff, Lucas, ZSS, Olimar.

Just try it. If you can't d-tilt from standing position, just switch controllers.

 

[Magus420]

Is it not possible to attack during the beginning of the crouch animation or something?

 

[Pururun]

It's something like that, after you do an attack or something that delays your down tilt, you crouch then down tilt, instead of down tilting immediately. Just stand around Final Destination and use flame choke to crouching down tilt on nothing. You'll clearly see the crouching frames(you can even hear it), flame choke to crouching down tilt looks very rigid. That's the delay that causes the follow up to fail.

Now do the same thing only follow it with a standing down tilt, the transition is faster because he doesn't crouch, he goes straight into the attack.

 

[SCfury]

>B to A is the way to go on more bigger/mid sized characters, d-tilt misses a lot

 

[Pururun]

>B to A is the way to go on more bigger/mid sized characters, d-tilt misses a lot

I implore you, just try it the way I described just a few posts back. Hell, everyone try it. It seriously cuts down on the lag of the d-tilt.

 

[Dragmire]

holy **** it's true it really does work well i guess it's an awesome tactic for smaller foes great find pururun

random find: Usmash does 22% at tip of foot 19% at any other part.