Tier List Speculation

[shairn]

Which is worse: Bowser, ICs or Olimar?

 

[Deleted member]

ICs are technically bugged... So they don't count

Olimar and Bowser should form a very complicated love interest.

Oh and btw bowser doesn't need buffs, bowser needs a re-design. They made bowser by saying "Hey, lets slap armor onto this character with a **** neutral game and call it a day"

 

[shairn]

I think armor on some moves makes sense or plays very well into his moveset like dash attack, nair, downB.
I'd love something to be done about flame breath.

 

[CORY]

Give him grab immunity on startup of a few moves and ???

 

[shairn]

Bowser can only be grabbed by his tail

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Bowser's design is actually v interesting and I kinda like the archetype of fat slow fighter with hella armor that he occupies

 

[Frost | Odds]

Despite having put (far) more work into bowser at this point than literally anyone, I'd still probably be ok with a redesign. As long as I could help with it.

With the addition of sort-of mobility tools and a dash attack that goes through most stuff, he can actually beat most or all characters now- but the amount of MUs that are just completely and totally stacked for the other guy is just nuts. I very rarely play Ganon (and never spend time in the lab with him), but my Ganon is literally at least as good as my Bowser in terms of effectiveness.

 

[Soft Serve]

Bowser's archetype doesn't fit well into a game about mobility, at least not in its current design

Like good slow characters in a mobile game normally some tools to limit the opponents mobility, so like snake (Or squigly from skullgrils)

Not saying bowser doesn't work, but it works kinda poorly imo, and its hard to balance without throwing blatantly silly things onto him to make him okay.

 

[steelguttey]

why does everyone think me and robo are the same person

im like 2 years old and hes at an age where his parents tell him not to talk to strangers online

brb mom is calling me

 

[GP&B]

I always remember robo because he has that silly mario picture

 

[Frost | Odds]

[I should disclaimer at this point that I'm still relatively happy where Bowser's at -- he's easily the best designed character that he's been up til now, I just feel that there's room for improvement]

His total lack of defense against grabs is still the main thing (in conjunction with, as you said, his total lack of means to limit mobility - the combination means he basically auto-loses to DD), which seems pretty silly on a character who's ostensibly all about tankiness/defense. I thought it was pretty weird that Ganon got a shiny new Fox-level spotdodge (despite already being almost strictly superior to Bowser in every way) while Bowser is stuck with still having the worst in the game/an effectively useless one; though it's understandable that the idea of overbuffing Bowser is pretty terrifying.

Just curious, is there any reason that invincibility (as opposed to intangibility) might be disadvantageous - like against multi-hit attacks or something?

ASSUMING that projectiles are still out as an option (which I still kinda don't buy - why not just re-import him as a new Lucario [or Mario?] clone? Would that work?), would it be possible to make his spotdodge invincible (or even just super-armored with a grab-immune property if that exists) as a tradeoff for making it faster/less horrible at dodging grabs?

I'm still full of ideas for how to play with Bowser's design, but I know I'm kind of a broken record at this point, and nobody really wants to hear it. ;(

 

[DrinkingFood]

Oh gee ROB tink is a 65-35 MU? Somebody tell ROB, he doesn't realize his loses to small fast characters

Also mobile SBs ate my ****ing post from earlier but I meant to say I can confirm ROB beats fox on FD. Lack of platforms are super important for that matchup for ROB for two reasons- first they make his punish game super braindead and gauranteed. Chain grab 0-105 to upsmash/DACUS if they don't DI offstage (the CG ends at 55 on PS2 platforms and about 70 on DL/SV platforms to put it in perspective. Really the CG does not seem humanly possible below ~20 if they mix up their DI. But you can have other options too, like uthrowing where if they DI away they end up near the edge for an easy tech chase, or dthrow into dsmash to also set up for a tech chase. And setting up a tech chase is good since ROB's dsmash can cover 3/4 options against fox: tech in place, missed tech, and tech in. And near an edge you can cover 4/4 if spaced right. Also nair with bad DI can lead into a grab or tech chase with good DI. So anyways you get him to like 20-25, start the dthrow CG, and keep going until usmash/DACUS kills at 105 or until they DI the dthrow offstage at which point you fair them to death.
Second reason, without platforms Fox's mobility and ability to avoid projectiles decreases significantly, while ROB's mobility doesn't suffer too much and actually improves his ability to get out his top quickly (full hop gyro shot into gyro grab or AGT, aka a gyro jump, doesn't work well with a platform in the way) and his ability to cover down from high with a nair.
Same applies for GHZ although to a lesser extent because the platform still does interfere sometimes. But the small stage sise limiting Fox's movement helps make up for it.

All of this hardly matters tho because fox should never not ban FD and GHZ, even if the opponent didn't play the first game as ROB or any character with a good chaingrab. And the same stupid general stagelist and striking system we've been using for PM because muh variety lets him get away with banning those AND have one left over.

 

[steelguttey]

in history of fighting games heavies are only good if they have ****ING STUPID HITBOXES. like umvc3 vergil ****.

bowser can really use that ****. maybe not take percent when using armor on some of his moves for projectiles?



another note, why is everyone putting squirtle so fking low. he has luigi's wavedash and captain falcon's jump he is the most mobile character in the game #notsayingimo

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Strange comparisons I'm seeing here. Heavies are somewhat faster these days in games (See Rufus, Bob, etc)

 

[steelguttey]

by heavies i mean thawk and haggar

like

"holy **** thats a huge ****ing hulking man coming towards me somebody help if he command grabs me im actually dead"

bowser should be that

 

[didds]

squirtle is secretly fine, but let's keep it a secret okay?
I wanna play low tier

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

bowser with across the screen command grab like big band pls

 

[PlateProp]

Bowser should be shrunk

Flame Breath becomes Fireball

**** idk, give him **** from the Mario & Luigi games. All of the mario characters should have **** from that tbh. SRSLY PMBR Y U NO THUNDERHAND LUIGI

 

[The_NZA]

Bowser's fine. He'll be that character in 10 years that everyone has as a tertiary to omgwtfbbq cp on Yoshi's story

 

[Rᴏb]

I was so disappointed when Bowser didn't get redesigned. If he continues to resemble his melee self he well never get out of low tier- it's impossible. Characters as bad as Olimar will always beat him. His design now is fine if he's supposed to be a joke character.

Just lift his design from SmUsh, keep the armor idea (it could be applied better) and keep his melee tech and he'll be infinitely better.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Bowser's fine. He'll be that character in 10 years that everyone has as a tertiary to omgwtfbbq cp on Yoshi's story

Being OP on 2 stages and relatively useless on the rest is not "fine".

 

[Ripple]

Speaking of that @ Ripple , are there any matchups for D3 where it would be worth pulling out the DK?

Ganon match up probably. I'm pretty bad at it as DDD

 

[Frost | Odds]

Ganon match up probably. I'm pretty bad at it as DDD

I'm still convinced that Ganon is wildly underrated. He also seems to completely crush other fatties, due to the fact that they can't dodge his ridiculous command grab, and tend to be really easy for him to cg and tech chase.

Also, seriously you guys, shff nair autocancels. Hell, I think shff uair and bair do the same. He has some of the best grab and tech chase followups in the game, every move is a kill move, and landing with him from the air is ridiculously safe.

Or maybe he just feels like cheating because I'm used to Bowser. Who knows :<

 

[Hylian]

IC's have 3 infinites and people consider them bottom 3 in the game?

;_;

;_;

 

[Ripple]

Well, when you can't infinite my fatty McFatty DDD then they'll stay bottom

 

[POOB]

Btw @ DrinkingFood sorry for calling you a random ROB lol I was just talkin **** I friggin love watching your ROB

 

[Chevy]

Bowser should be shrunk

Flame Breath becomes Fireball

**** idk, give him **** from the Mario & Luigi games. All of the mario characters should have **** from that tbh. SRSLY PMBR Y U NO THUNDERHAND LUIGI

You have no idea how bad I want Mario & Luigi as an Ice Climbers clone. It's too perfect.

 

[Turtal0s]

What are everyone's thoughts on Ivy? I want to use her but don't want to waste my time if she isn't all that viable.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Btw @ DrinkingFood sorry for calling you a random ROB lol I was just talkin **** I friggin love watching your ROB

The salt telling people they lost to a randy is funny. Like lunchables response was immediately "W-well, 35-65...!"

Spoiler

jk lunchies don't be mad pls

 

[_A1]

What are everyone's thoughts on Ivy? I want to use her but don't want to waste my time if she isn't all that viable.

You don't have to agree, but I'd play Ivy(assuming he is my favorite char) regardless of viability.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

every char is viable except for olimar

 

[CORY]

I'm still convinced that Ganon is wildly underrated. He also seems to completely crush other fatties, due to the fact that they can't dodge his ridiculous command grab, and tend to be really easy for him to cg and tech chase.

Also, seriously you guys, shff nair autocancels. Hell, I think shff uair and bair do the same. He has some of the best grab and tech chase followups in the game, every move is a kill move, and landing with him from the air is ridiculously safe.

Or maybe he just feels like cheating because I'm used to Bowser. Who knows :<

Sh bair and uair auto cancel, you can't ff them AFAIK. You can, however, Waveland them.

I still want to know who's bright idea it was to push Nair's active frames up to frame5. It didn't need that at all, with how good it was before, and ganon had a fast aerial option in uair.

 

[InfinityCollision]

IC's have 3 infinites and people consider them bottom 3 in the game?

;_;

;_;

Rolling with the assumption that PAL/bugfix will make the current release goal for a moment, how many of those will still be relevant 3 weeks from now? I know one's out, guessing footstool infinite will get patched, which just leaves the third infinite... which has variable timing and in some cases requires frame-perfect execution. Given the lack of PM ICs players and how few of those can currently execute said infinite with any consistency, I doubt it's on most people's radars.

Granted bugfix patch also brings good things for ICs, so that's nice.

 

[Hylian]

Rolling with the assumption that PAL/bugfix will make the current release goal for a moment, how many of those will still be relevant 3 weeks from now? I know one's out, guessing footstool infinite will get patched, which just leaves the third infinite... which has variable timing and in some cases requires frame-perfect execution. Given the lack of PM ICs players and how few of those can currently execute said infinite with any consistency, I doubt it's on most people's radars.

Granted bugfix patch also brings good things for ICs, so that's nice.

My comment was more of a subtle jab at people who freak out over how imbalanced IC's having infinites are, when they've always had them in PM, have 2 fairly easy ones to do in 3.5, and still no one places well or even plays them. Really though only one of the infinites is viable and we've already patched it internally. Not sure if the footstool one will be patch or not yet, I'm still testing it.

 

[Deleted member]

The salt telling people they lost to a randy is funny. Like lunchables response was immediately "W-well, 35-65...!"

Spoiler

jk lunchies don't be mad pls

It's actually a HORRIBLE matchup. Even Oracle agrees lmao

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

bowser with across the screen command grab like big band pls

Sorry, Ganon got it first.
Giant Step is still available though. Imagine if Bowser Bomb and D-Air had that earthquake instant knockdown to screw ground-based zoners.
Or he could get a Shine. Shines can always make something good.

On a more serious note, I've heard things like Samus actually being able to deal with Spacies. How?

 

[shairn]

The same way she does in Melee, but better?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Just curious why?

His neutral game is way better. Marth definitely profits from his sword tip in general, why Roy's tip hinders him from outzoning. He can still grab and try to get at closer range, but that's always risky if you don't have a combo breaker nair. I'd give the punish game to Roy though because he can start combos from way more moves than Marth.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

The same way she does in Melee, but better?

Thing is, I've never played Melee aside from 3 random casual matches where I didn't use Samus because her brand new missiles had no knockback and I thought that was bull**** of the highest caliber.

 

[Frost | Odds]

It's actually a HORRIBLE matchup. Even Oracle agrees lmao

> Not a Bowser main
> Talking about "horrible" matchups

holy hell I am so triggered right now. Check your privilege white boi


it really is quite bad though