Tier List Speculation

[PlateProp]

> Not a Bowser main
> Talking about "horrible" matchups

holy hell I am so triggered right now. Check your privilege white boi


it really is quite bad though

Shut up odds

Squirtle has a bad matchu against Ganon AND BOWSER

GANON AND BOWSER

 

[steelguttey]

i remember when olimar had good matchups against half of the cast :^(

 

[Juushichi]

Top tier:
High tier:
Upper mid tier:
Lower mid tier:
Low/Bottom tier:
steelguttey and robosteven aren't the same person tier?!?:

IMO:
Characters that should go down: Sheik (one group), Diddy (one group), Zelda (one group), Game and Watch (one group)
Characters that should go up: Ike (one group), Peach (one or two groups), DDD (one group), Snake (at LEAST two groups), MK (one group), Jigglypuff (one group), Ivysaur (one group), Pikachu/Link/DK (one group)
Characters that should be removed: Sheilda
-----

Top: Fox, Falco, Lucario, Wolf, Roy
High: Samus, TL, ROB, Sheik, Yoshi, Ike, Snake, Peach, Falcon
U. Mid: Diddy, Mario, ZSS, Mewtwo, Marth, Wario, Sonic, DDD, MK, Lucas, Luigi
L. Mid: GnW, Charizard, Ness, Ganondorf, Kirby, Link, Pikachu, Pit, Jigglypuff, DK, Ivysaur, Zelda
Low: Squirtle, Bowser
Need Fixed: Ice Climbers, Olimar

I think Squirtle and Bowser (and Squirtle is probably better than I think) are a few degrees of separation from being so ****ing obnoxious AND really good. Olimar... well. Ice Climbers when fixed might be between L. Mid and U. Mid. Not sure. Fumbles has shown me some really cool **** and I continue to be impressed by the character when they do things that look like they work or should work. Hylian is also really really good.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Shut up odds

Squirtle has a bad matchu against Ganon AND BOWSER

GANON AND BOWSER

have you tried the purple button?

...Why is everyone puttting Mario so low all of a sudden? He was top tier in 3.02 and was barely changed- he also benefits from the new, gimpable meta in a similar fashion to Jigglypuff, M2, Kruby, et al.

 

[Juushichi]

I am still a little hesitant to put him lower than high, even though I did in the post. His recovery is still really good even though it's not pants on head dumb. He's still annoying to engage with and his projectile is still good.

He has stubby limbs and a smaller grab compared to other characters and that's like... his main detractor.

 

[PlateProp]

have you tried the purple button?

...Why is everyone puttting Mario so low all of a sudden? He was top tier in 3.02 and was barely changed- he also benefits from the new, gimpable meta in a similar fashion to Jigglypuff, M2, Kruby, et al.

It's bad odds.

 

[Soft Serve]

Thing is, I've never played Melee aside from 3 random casual matches where I didn't use Samus because her brand new missiles had no knockback and I thought that was bull**** of the highest caliber.

Samus stops and punishes approaches from spacies with a great CC game and WD back >punish baits. For example, she can CC fox's strong nair until like 80, then you get a dsmash/tilt >combo. If fox goes for a dair approach, she can always up OoS to punish it. Fox laser nerf also means she has more time to cut off spacie options and force them to try to fight out of a corner. She still struggles vs running shine approaches and just getting beat by Dash dancing, but it's better than it used to be. She does get gimped more easily though, tether changes hurt.

Really it comes down to the fact approaching samus is hard, killing her is hard (Sept shine spike) camping her is harder, and she kills spacies in 2 convertions

 

[TTTTTsd]

I am still a little hesitant to put him lower than high, even though I did in the post. His recovery is still really good even though it's not pants on head dumb. He's still annoying to engage with and his projectile is still good.

He has stubby limbs and a smaller grab compared to other characters and that's like... his main detractor.

Gonna bite the bullet and agree here as a Mario main. He lost a bit of options that made him Top (I.e. a REALLY annoying fireball that shut down a lot, amazing CG with D-Throw (still works for a bit but not as good), he had silly recovery mixups before, Dair was really good, etc.) but he's still Mario. He's just lost a lot of options that made him top, and I'm still debating whether he's high or upper mid but I'm leaning on the latter. Not like Upper Mid is a bad tier, though. The little things add up the most IMO.

Chars being more gimpable helps him though, especially with how his Bair works and of course, the cape.

Also people talking about a Bowser redesign and I would totally be cool with that. Make him a beautiful brawler like he is in M&L and we have a deal.

 

[NWRL]

I don't know why people place Ike so low when he's an absolute monster this patch. He eats spacies and his bad matchups from 3.5 have been nerfed (Lucas, Samus, ZSS)

 

[Boiko]

I don't know why people place Ike so low when he's an absolute monster this patch. He eats spacies and his bad matchups from 3.5 have been nerfed (Lucas, Samus, ZSS)

The Samus boards flipped out on me when I said I like the Ike MU as Samus. They say it's one of her worst. I still don't see it.

 

[Deleted member]

Top tier:
High tier:

i would move sonic up with yoshi and friends, and remove shielda entirely. but yeah this seems spot on basically.

 

[Deleted member]

Top Tier:

Upper Mid Tier:

Mid Tier:

Bottom Mid Tier:

Trash Tier:

Basically all you need to know, the other characters don't matter.

 

[Deleted member]

Trash Tier:

Basically all you need to know

i agree with this much of your post.

 

[Strong Badam]

I love seeing DK as low tier in all these lists. Makes me feel like I'm good or something

it was the opposite for me, for around 3 straight patches a lot of people put dk in top tier exclusively because of my tournament results. then i stopped using the character and he dropped multiple tiers on everyone's lists.

LOL

btw Lunchables' tier list is the closest tier list I've ever seen to my own opinion.

 

[Deleted member]

it was the opposite for me, for around 3 straight patches a lot of people put dk in top tier exclusively because of my tournament results. then i stopped using the character and he dropped multiple tiers on everyone's lists.

LOL

btw Lunchables' tier list is the closest tier list I've ever seen to my own opinion.

well arent you full of yourself.

(the irony here is strong)

starng bard you should stream some 1 player jank game or something

 

[Strong Badam]

if i can get everything on my to-do list done by 2:30ish i might continue to stream paper mario today. i'm just about to start chapter 5.

EDIT: OOPS THIS ISN'T THE SOCIAL THREAD

 

[TTTTTsd]

Paper Mario counts as a jank game. I remember putting up Cloud Nine and getting hit like 5 times in a row by the final boss (good RNG)

To the discussion at hand, I'm inclined to drop my agreement with Lunchables list too, and I think it's way too hard to order it right now still. 600+ pages and still no order seems weird but honestly that's a lot of logistics counting the larger stage list and more diverse MUs.

 

[Strong Badam]

the main reason we don't have a definitive tier list that most people agree with over 2 yrs after the thread was made is because of updates changing what that tier list should look like

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

the main reason we don't have a definitive tier list that most people agree with over 2 yrs after the thread was made is because of updates changing what that tier list should look like

It's nice to see how much tiers changed from 2 years ago.
BTW: Why doesn't anyone use this system anymore?

Discuss characters' potentials and how they stack up against the rest of the cast here.

Feel free to discuss why your tier list makes sense, and what people are likely missing in theirs.

This stuff below is out of date.

Spoiler

If we get some people putting out their tier lists, I'll average them (or someone else can) and I'll put them up on the OP.

Please keep in mind the tier list averages do not reflect an actual official tier list.

Hopefully I don't get shot for making this thread, lol.

-If you give me your own personal tier list, I will place it into my Excel Spreadsheet with your username and list of 33 characters in order. I'm going to ignore Top/High/etc. and just put it into numerical order.
-This means you do not have to edit your original tier list post. Just re-post it and I will know based on your username whether I am making a new column or just updating an old one.
-I am ignoring Shielda as a character despite her utility. No arguments on this. ^_^
-Putting SHeLL's idea into action. Poll will run for a bit as to what the top 8 characters are. ~Can't make polls

As of 1/24/13:

Average From 15 Tier Lists
Top
1. Fox

2. Falco

3. Sheik

4. Marth

5. Peach

6. Mario

High
7. Jigglypuff

8. Lucario

9. Ike

10. Diddy

11. Pit

12. Wolf

13. Falcon

Mid
14. Link

15. Snake

16. Ganondorf

17. Sonic

18. Pikachu

19. Lucas

20. Squirtle

Low
21. Zelda

22. DonkeyKong

23. Bowser

24. Zero SuitSamus

25. Wario

26. Ivysaur

27. Toon Link

Bottom
28. Charizard

29. DeDeDe

30. R.O.B.

31. Ness

32. Luigi

33. Game and Watch

Point totals:

Spoiler

Fox 21
Falco 32
Sheik 92
Marth 130
Peach 132
Mario 139
Puff 142
Lucario 169
Ike 200
Diddy 217
Pit 220
Wolf 269
Falcon 278
Link 298
Snake 298
Ganondorf 310
Sonic 329
Pikachu 345
Lucas 356
Squirtle 379
Zelda 380
DK 396
Bowser 398
ZSS 409
Wario 412
Ivysaur 418
TL 421
Zard 431
D3 460
ROB 472
Ness 485
Luigi 491
GnW 567

As of 1/3/13:

Spoiler

Credit to MCO for averaging.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

(the irony here is strong)

and bad

 

[steelguttey]

squirtle is high mid tier ez

 

[Soft Serve]

squirtle is high mid tier ez

but crouch canceling, and those tech rolls, my god those tech rolls

 

[didds]

but crouch canceling, and those tech rolls, my god those tech rolls

tech rolls will never be the ultimate killer though, play the neutral properly and it's a non issue. His vulnerability to cc is brought up a lot too, but he has anti crouch cancel tools from the ground and air, mainly his disgusting grab game and bubble.

Squirtles would probably get stuffed a lot less if they stopped shell shifting for one second and actually abused his absurd wavedashing and wavelanding ability.

It's bad odds.

can you elaborate, I don't necessarily disagree, but from my own personal experience it just doesn't seem to be the case. I'm not as familiar with bowser, but at least against Ganon, Squirtle just seems to spin all over him during the neutral game, and gimp ganon like its nothing. I can't imagine it as anything worse than even. Sure flame choke infinite, but like, unless he hard hard read you, squirtle has no business getting grabbed.

He just seems so underrated in general, like who is considered the best Squirtle main nowadays?

edit: i shoulda known better than to argue for squirtle...

 

[Chesstiger2612]

but crouch canceling, and those tech rolls, my god those tech rolls

I'd actually find it very hard to say which traction value is "the best", even for a certain character. In contrast to other variables in- or decreasing it can have both positive and negative effects. Back then when I was less experienced than now I only sow the positive sides about low traction values: long WD, good movement. But it also comes with a few problems: pushback can make shield punishs as well as crouch-cancelling less effective, plus a few minor things. And that is also the negative side about Squirtle's low traction value.
I think that one should always (automatically) account for both sides when an advantage/disadvantage is mentioned resulting from an extreme value of some variable.
Still think Squirtle is below his potential, but not only because of his "slippyness"

 

[hamyojo]

Squirtle has Fox like speed and mobility, and an amazing combo game to match. I don't think many who understand him disagree with that.
He has no range to start a combo. If the opponent is spacing fairs and stuff right with Ganon its crazy hard to punish that little bit of lag without putting Squirtman at risk.
Squirtle probably has the least range in the game, and with that has to take some of the most risks to punish in many MU's.
He doesn't have frame safe stuff like Fox or even safely spacable-on-shield things like, I don't know, almost every other character.

No ones good enough at punishing those tiny punish windows with Squirtle yet since it's so hard with no range. Not yet.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Squirtle has Fox like speed and mobility, and an amazing combo game to match. I don't think many who understand him disagree with that.
He has no range to start a combo. If the opponent is spacing fairs and stuff right with Ganon its crazy hard to punish that little bit of lag without putting Squirtman at risk.
Squirtle probably has the least range in the game, and with that has to take some of the most risks to punish in many MU's.
He doesn't have frame safe stuff like Fox or even safely spacable-on-shield things like, I don't know, almost every other character.

No ones good enough at punishing those tiny punish windows with Squirtle yet since it's so hard with no range. Not yet.

In what way does squritman have fox like speed?

 

[Deleted member]

speed IS range tho

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

honestly just from theorycrafting my ass off and remembering what the weegee/ganon mu is like in melee

it seems like squritle loses the matchup in an ideal world, but it's probably more even in real life

squirtle gets outranged hard and if he tries to actually approach, ganon can just wall him out with autocancel nair to stuff or l canceled fairs or cc everything squritle does and ganon needs like three hits to kill squirtle and he has infinites and garbage
but on the other hand squirtle is kinda a touch of death character and ganon is fat and gets pooped on.

like the key factor in this matchup is whether or not bubble outranges ganon's moves (which I just don't know the data for) or whether the ganon can react to bubble and punish it

 

[hamyojo]

He is snappy, and can get across the stage very quickly. Kinda Fox like. Idk. He's fast wave dashin' and air speed.
Umbreon, yes and no. If Marth is standing a character length away he can reach you with a tipper fair in like 10 frames. Jump>fair. Super quick and simple. For Fox you have a similar timing for jump>Nair. And both of those options are fairly safe.
Most PM characters can either do something like that, or some retreating alternative to do instead to stay safe. Squirtle can't move forward enough from standing to do any thing like that, and all his retreating moves would have too much lag.

 

[DrinkingFood]

You shouldn't be standing anyway considering you threaten more range from a DD particularly as squirtle
Or whatever you call that ****ing thing where you shellshift back into dash forward repeat

 

[hamyojo]

Squirtle's not bad he's just hard as balls. Also has Falcon-itis where everyone who plays him plays him for fun rather than to win.

 

[steelguttey]

squirtle has falcon's air speed and luigi's wave dash

that alone makes a character good

he also has really good throws (which he can get out of a shellshift) and a pretty good combo game.

his only real issues are range and killpower

edit: he also has ****ING ARMOR which is so dumb on a character that is that fast.

 

[didds]

wd dtilt and crawl tilt can both punish the small window, water gun can stuff marth and ganon fairs when used correctly. I can't think of a single situation where I'd feel panicked about having no options to deal with a wall. It's like he was made to not care about walls.

I definitely agree that no one is quite reaching that potential with him yet though.

I think overall the low traction is good for squirtle. He gets more benefits out of sliding out of pressure then the negatives of not being able to punish something on shield. Most of his conversions he can get straight out of neutral anyway.

I'm not saying he's godlike, but I am saying that I more realistically could see him as high tier than low tier. Speed is always something that can be worked with in this stupid game.

 

[Rᴏb]

Squirtle is so confusing. In theory, he sounds like he would be a pretty good character, but the amount of effort, techskill, and over all knowledge of the game required to reach is full potential doesn't seem realistic. His mobility is super interesting and as others have said, it enables him to have a lot of opportunities to punish, but his punishes are not only hard to pull off, they don't seem to lead into much.

I feel like Squirtle is a character with a lot of straight up broken things, but these things have little to no cohesion, which makes playing as Squirtle a hassle. On paper he's good, but that's it. I've been making a personal tier list for a while now, and I can't find a reason to not put him as the 3 worst character in the game, but maybe I'm ignorant.

 

[~Dad~]

I can't find a reason to not put him as the 3[rd] worst character in the game

This is what I like to see right here.

Squirtman is bad (and no good).

 

[Deleted member]

i would move sonic up with yoshi and friends, and remove shielda entirely. but yeah this seems spot on basically.

My problem with sonic is that he basically loses to any lingering hitbox. I'm not joking, its pretty bad.

Sonic is actually one of my many pockets that I play in friendlies, I love him and I think he's pretty good but that one thing alone REALLY bothers me.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

On paper he's good

Then put him higher. It's not Squirtle's fault the players are too bad.

 

[Boiko]

My problem with sonic is that he basically loses to any lingering hitbox. I'm not joking, its pretty bad.

Sonic is actually one of my many pockets that I play in friendlies, I love him and I think he's pretty good but that one thing alone REALLY bothers me.

What would you call Sonic/Samus MU?

 

[The_NZA]

Why dont you nerds stop listening to bad players talk about this video game and act like cool nerds and watch our bad players tonight play this video game.

errr

www.twitch.tv/gameunderground

Dont murder me.

 

[Narpas_sword]

What would you call Sonic/Samus MU?

Sonic vs Samus = Samus uses a lot more bombs.