Burnsy
Smash Lord
You'll get no sympathy from me
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
Bryonato
Green Hat
Certainly within reason.
Am I alone in thinking Peach is really not that good in Project M?
Look, it's basically Melee Peach + glide tossing. That's fantastic and everything. Except, Melee Peach did not have great matchups on the top cast, and now they've buffed the rest of the cast.
Seriously, try playing a *good* Project M Link player with Peach. It's absurd how bad the matchup is. You can't do *anything*. Peach already had a poor matchup with Link in Melee. With his buffs, he mops her up.
Same thing everywhere...Peach stays the same against good characters (i.e. "okay"), but the bad characters she used to trounce are all buffed.
She's not horrible, but I don't see her as remotely good. Middle of the pack, maybe lower middle.
Look, it's basically Melee Peach + glide tossing. That's fantastic and everything. Except, Melee Peach did not have great matchups on the top cast, and now they've buffed the rest of the cast.
Seriously, try playing a *good* Project M Link player with Peach. It's absurd how bad the matchup is. You can't do *anything*. Peach already had a poor matchup with Link in Melee. With his buffs, he mops her up.
Same thing everywhere...Peach stays the same against good characters (i.e. "okay"), but the bad characters she used to trounce are all buffed.
She's not horrible, but I don't see her as remotely good. Middle of the pack, maybe lower middle.
This isn't trying to make the game in to Melee. Diddy is an extremely interesting character and there is a lot of technique to bananas. It's particularly interesting with the ability to combine glide tossing and wavedashing in Project M, and picking up bananas with wavedashing. Very technical. I love P:M Diddy and would stop playing him without the naners.
Actually, this is my #1 complaint about Project M. They try too hard to give the "new" characters uniqueness, and this makes characters take much more thought to figure out.
There's a certain consistency to Melee and Brawl characters; their melee attacks (aerials, tilts, smashes) are generally pretty linear and you just have to figure out how to space their hitboxes. You can go against a character you haven't fought before and figure out the basics really fast, and get surprised just by ATs.
In Project M, you have to figure out very complex matchup intricacies to even fight characters. Playing against Ivysaur, Charizard, Diddy, particularly Lucario, etc will get you completely wrecked unless you've got extensive practice.
NeonApophis
Smash Apprentice
Peach has fine matchups against everyone but Puff in Melee. Fox and Falcon have an advantage as well, but that's very manageable as long as the Peach has a good punish game (which is necessary to actually be good with Peach). She also definitely does not have a bad matchup against Link in Melee. I'm not sure you fully appreciate how good Peach was in melee if you think she loses to Link. She has amazing aerials which can be float cancelled to eliminate all landing lag and frame trap shielding opponents, a strong grab game including chain throws on fast fallers, a super powerful dsmash that destroys shields and does tons of damage if you CC or end up underneath it, basically unlimited horizontal recovery and resistance to being gimped, a really good combo game, and she's good for human players since all of this stuff is not that hard to do consistently.
Things that make her better in PM:
(Aerial) glide tossing adds mobility
Improved up tilt
Improved side b
I'm pretty sure her up b goes farther
PM's shield mechanics make her pressure even stronger since you can't light shield to get pushed away, meaning that FC aerial to dsmash is even better at eating shields
Since so many characters have improved aerial mobility/recovery and therefore better gimping abilities, her recovery gives her an additional advantage over the more gimpable fast fallers.
Peach is definitely still really good in PM.
\Apples
Smash Journeyman
Not if you've got a wall.
ZSS related question: is she the only character who can cancel a move of hers (Down+B) with a footstool? It even has a special footstool flip animation and it interrupts anything and everything if it connects (which apparently, footstools should never do that. So, if they shouldn't, why does hers? It's totally ridiculous and it just makes her so over-the-top hard to punish.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
It's not a footstool. It's the worst meteor in the game technically.
Also it might be the only recovery move in the game without a hitbox. My only gripe with the flipstool is that you can hold the B button to activate just in case you get close enough to someone.
Also it might be the only recovery move in the game without a hitbox. My only gripe with the flipstool is that you can hold the B button to activate just in case you get close enough to someone.
Planet Piss
Smash Journeyman
I agree that the new Brawl characters are much more distinct than the melee veterans, but I can appreciate the clash of Nintendo's and the PMBR's game design. I think it gives players the ability to choose a very fleshed out, dry type of character like Shiek or Marth, or go full whack with Squirtle or Snake, all of whom can contend with one another. Lucario is actually pretty easy to figure out because defensive game against him is very basic. Hold away until you see a power move coming and then survival DI.
I also don't feel like suggesting that PM characters take longer to figure out is a valid complaint because MU inexperience is always technically the victim's fault. If I go to a Melee tourney and lose to a Pikachu because I don't know the MU, how is it any different than if I lose to a ROB in PM? Both characters have downfalls that are abusable, including the spacing of hitboxes. Plus, it's extremely easy to develop this kind of dichotomy between new and old characters because, well, some are new and some are old. Spacies would look weird as hell if they were invented recently by the PMBR. And Ice Climbers? Are you ****ing serious? I get how many Brawl characters have previously unheard-of techniques like Ike WDing out of his ->B, or Ivy's Synthesis, but these things still have counters. If you don't want to learn them then it's not your opponent's fault for picking a character you don't know how to fight.
Nguz95
Smash Lord
Lucas is da bes. He literally has options against everybody. He is an excellent example of a unique character that has been designed impeccably by the PMBR. His neutral b, PK offense up, is a really cool move that adds a tremendous amount of depth to his playstyle. Suddenly there are two types of Lucas: one with the charge, and one without. The Lucas without a charge can still body you, but the Lucas with a charge is a beast that's really difficult to take down. Couple that with a pseudo shine and a tether recovery and you get a character that epitomizes everything great about PM.
I feel this kind of unique design is good for smash, as it prevents the character landscape from being flat. While there are some problems with this (balance, MU experience, etc.) I feel that its rewards (deep gameplay, lots of niches for new players, a fresh outlook on Smash) are crucial to the game's growth and development. Characters like Lucas are what keeps PM in the public sphere and prevent it from being a sideshow to Melee.
I feel this kind of unique design is good for smash, as it prevents the character landscape from being flat. While there are some problems with this (balance, MU experience, etc.) I feel that its rewards (deep gameplay, lots of niches for new players, a fresh outlook on Smash) are crucial to the game's growth and development. Characters like Lucas are what keeps PM in the public sphere and prevent it from being a sideshow to Melee.
Planet Piss
Smash Journeyman
Get rid of his absurd dair and we'll call him good. That ridiculous move, on top of its tech-chasing capabilities, provides a risk-free way for him to poop on people offstage. All you have to do is plop it on their heads while they recover and after the first three hits get done forcing you below an area you can tech, you get meteor'd. I think the move would be less dumb if the first two hits were taken out, leaving only a single stun kick before the meteor.
I do absolutely love watching a good Lucas get off, though.
NeonApophis
Smash Apprentice
Lucas's dair can be escaped with good smash DI. Also, if they are recovering they are presumably off stage, so if they're getting hit straight down I'm not sure how they could able to tech anything, so the fact that you fall farther doesn't affect that. The only possible benefit of carrying them down is that it might let you knock them outside their recovery range more easily, but it's questionable whether this is as beneficial as having the strong hit come out immediately. I know Calabrel has written about why he thinks the 2.5 dair was better, and I think it's pretty close between the two. Out of all his moves, dair is definitely not the thing that makes Lucas broken. Lol.
Planet Piss
Smash Journeyman
I don't think Lucas is broken by any means. I just think the move has dumb mechanics.
You can DI meteors to the left or right so if you aren't on a stage with walls that go all the way down, Lucas' dair carries you below ledge-techable surfaces provided that you are recovering close to the stage. I like to up b close to the ledge against meteor-happy foes but it doesn't matter when they have a move that carries you down below the techable areas.
As far as smash DI goes, I haven't been able to successfully pull it off well because the dair stuns you in a way that is unlike, say, Fox's. You only get a bit of hitstun on each hit of Fox's dair so sdi works great if you buffer a roll or something, but Lucas's stuns you too long for that and automatically links into the other hits. It also pummels you into the ground from above, and then pops you up with the final hit. Lucas also has enough horizontal momentum to get the rest of the hits even if you sdi.
The best thing I found against his dair is to cc tech the last hit, but he can still run after you and do another one usually on reaction. The mechanics of the move kind obfuscate the timing for the tech too, and because of the 3 prior hitboxes, ccing seems a bit... weird.
Like I said before, if the first two hits were gone, the move would still function in the same way and have the same combo potential for Lucas, but it would do less damage and be less ridiculous offstage. Snake has the same dair and I've seen good Snakes abuse the hell out of it plenty of times.
You can DI meteors to the left or right so if you aren't on a stage with walls that go all the way down, Lucas' dair carries you below ledge-techable surfaces provided that you are recovering close to the stage. I like to up b close to the ledge against meteor-happy foes but it doesn't matter when they have a move that carries you down below the techable areas.
As far as smash DI goes, I haven't been able to successfully pull it off well because the dair stuns you in a way that is unlike, say, Fox's. You only get a bit of hitstun on each hit of Fox's dair so sdi works great if you buffer a roll or something, but Lucas's stuns you too long for that and automatically links into the other hits. It also pummels you into the ground from above, and then pops you up with the final hit. Lucas also has enough horizontal momentum to get the rest of the hits even if you sdi.
The best thing I found against his dair is to cc tech the last hit, but he can still run after you and do another one usually on reaction. The mechanics of the move kind obfuscate the timing for the tech too, and because of the 3 prior hitboxes, ccing seems a bit... weird.
Like I said before, if the first two hits were gone, the move would still function in the same way and have the same combo potential for Lucas, but it would do less damage and be less ridiculous offstage. Snake has the same dair and I've seen good Snakes abuse the hell out of it plenty of times.
D
Deleted member
Guest
you're actually crazy. link can't do **** to a good peach that just floats and waits.
\Apples
Smash Journeyman
It's the invincibility that really frustrates me. She can use it to escape combos and also to push through with strong reaction time, then passing over her opponent, can just get off scot-free by flipstooling. Several times, I've seen her ledgehop right through Pikachu's Dsmash with invincibility and then flipstool to interrupt the Dsmash and then play off the tech chase.
The meteor is still a big deal though because even though you can meteor cancel it easily:
1. it can interrupt aerials and recovery moves while getting her closer to the ledge
2. her up+b gets her onto the ledge ridiculously fast, before most characters can get anywhere near the ledge, then proceed to easily edgeguard because she's actually really good at it.
Okay, so I could whine all day about ZSS, I suppose. She just worries me sometimes with the absurdities I've seen her string together and the situations she can put her opponents in. It's very frustrating.
Yeah, I actually think Link has a pretty hard match-up against peach in PM because he has so much trouble comboing her compared to other characters and she punishes him really hard when she gets a hit.
[Collapse=2.6b tier list]S tier:
1. Fox
2. Metaknight
3. Wolf
4. Falco
5. Sheik
6. Peach
A tier:
7. Ivysaur
8. Wario
9. Pit
10. Toon Link
B tier:
11. Lucas
12. Lucario
13. Mario
14. Snake
15. Link
16. Marth
C tier:
17. Donkey Kong
18. Mr. Game and Watch
19. Ike
20. ROB
21. Zero Suit Samus
22. Charizard
D tier:
23. Sonic
24. Diddy Kong
25. Captain Falcon
26. King Dedede
27. Bowser
28. Pikachu
E tier:
29. Zelda
30. Ness
31. Jigglypuff
32. Squirtle
33. Luigi
34. Ganondorf[/collapse]
1. Fox
2. Metaknight
3. Wolf
4. Falco
5. Sheik
6. Peach
A tier:
7. Ivysaur
8. Wario
9. Pit
10. Toon Link
B tier:
11. Lucas
12. Lucario
13. Mario
14. Snake
15. Link
16. Marth
C tier:
17. Donkey Kong
18. Mr. Game and Watch
19. Ike
20. ROB
21. Zero Suit Samus
22. Charizard
D tier:
23. Sonic
24. Diddy Kong
25. Captain Falcon
26. King Dedede
27. Bowser
28. Pikachu
E tier:
29. Zelda
30. Ness
31. Jigglypuff
32. Squirtle
33. Luigi
34. Ganondorf[/collapse]
Sarix
Smash Ace
I find the best way to manage Peach is to just straight up outzone her. And I don't mean classic keepaway zoning, I mean the more modern maximize your opportunities and minimize the opponent's opportunities in neutral zoning. She only has turnips to rely on while Link has 2 more projectiles and disjointed normals to outrange her with. Taking Peach with head on rushdown I think is just bad idea since her defensive game is very strong and like you said she punishes hard.
I still think it's in Peach's favor though because when she gets in Link is basically helpless since his weight class just lets her go to town.
powerfox112
Smash Cadet
Any reason why Ness and Zelda are in E tier?
Tlock
Smash Apprentice
Just my quick two cents.
I can see Zelda being that low. No one knows the matchup yet, at all, so a good Zelda player can go pretty far in a tournament off of matchup inexperience. Once she is figured out I don't think she will be any higher than D.
But once again, even a D character is still viable in tournament IMO.
Jigglypuff being that low doesn't necessarily mean that the tier list is that much closer together (I know I don't feel that it is). I'm pretty sure Jigglypuff struggles these days simply because her strategy and spacing options don't work nearly as well on what is probably now a majority of the cast, which just makes her noticeably worse on average than she was in Melee.
Remember guys, tier lists by nature are bell curves. Even if you try to combat this by segmenting the list and associating levels of "goodness" by these separations, they still won't be enough unless you literally define the separations themselves.
There will always be tops and bottoms.
There will always be tops and bottoms.
Just because I think the other characters I listed above them are better. Tournament results so far have shown that both of them can do well, so I don't think they are terrible characters.
I can definitely see your points regarding Falcon and Zard, I had Zard several spots lower for a while and I can still see him being there. I can also see Falcon being in C tier, it just gets difficult to tell at that point.
I think it's important to note that I tried to place characters on their own merits without much of an emphasis on tournament results (hence why Bowser and Zelda are as low as they are), Metaknight's traits are absolutely insane across the whole board and his neutral game is ridiculously good. He has a sword that's comparable in size to Ragnell, a small hurtbox, ridiculously good frame data (in both start-up and end lag), multiple jumps, fantastic ground based mobility, probably the best option in the game for landing on the stage safely and a decent grab game to boot. This is also why I have Toon Link in A tier, I think I have a good idea of how strong he is considering I'm responsible for at least half of his top 3 placements, and he's basically a jack of all trades character except that he excels in a bunch of areas. He's not really weak in any aspect and he's really strong in multiple areas, characters like that can never really be "bad" IMO.
Regarding Marth: I think Marth's traits are extremely strong still but somewhat mitigated in PM. He excels in Melee because he trumps nearly every character in neutral (seriously, I can count how many characters are strong against his dd+dtilt use on one hand) and also wins every single air to air transition when the opponent is above you or off stage simply because no one in Melee has options when Marth intelligently places his sword between them and the stage. In PM, characters in general have stronger movement and considerably improved options against DDing so it's easier to deal with his neutral game, and some characters are also better at dealing with threats below them which mitigates his juggling/edge guarding to some degree. Most importantly, the stages in PM are considerably larger on the whole which goes a long way in stopping his monopoly on stage control, it's like having to deal with a bunch of DL64/KJ sized stages with Marth in Melee and I feel it places him solidly in mid tier as a result.
As for Bowser, my tournament experience vs him is limited but I think what Gimpyfish says about Bowser makes a lot of sense. I feel that this character at top level gets considerably worse considering his poor approach game in general, armour only goes so far if you can't even initiate interactions in a favourable manner. I'm willing to concede that my opinion of Bowser could easily change, but as of now I don't think he is relatively that good of a character.
Yeah, this is why I have Puff so low, not just because the balance in PM is overall better. Puff does well in Melee I think because she's very anti-Meta, it just so happens that her strong polarising traits are effective in that game. She has decent match-ups vs the fast fallers that dominate most characters in the game and also is really strong vs Sheik/Peach. In PM I think she's received a bunch of soft/hard counters like Ivysaur, MK, Snake, Bowser, Ike and Toon Link that really puts a dent in her viability.
\Apples
Smash Journeyman
Only thing that jumps out at me on this like is Toon Link at #10, I mess with the guy but I'm pretty unexposed to what he's actually capable of. Where might I find some Tink video evidence? I'd put ZSS, Diddy and Squirtle higher and Bowser in E. But otherwise, it's the most agreeable tier list I've seen posted here in a while.
Nazo
Smash Journeyman
Aero vs. DEHF in GF of Overflow
Set 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhjMSUZl6y0
Set 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSJoAWMnmRM
There's more on that channel, check it out
Aero has a few recent videos up, he's a solid player. I'll have some new videos recorded soon as well (likely this weekend or next weekend), considering that the only ones I have atm are of when I initially picked up TL and do not do a good job of showing his potential as a character.
Praxis: I don't think Peach is that good, but for different reasons. My concern is over how relatively immobile she is. With a new cast that flies, glides, runs, hops, dashes, and jank town USA approaches better than Melee, it's hard seeing her keep up. Shield pushback also works against her defensively when trying to punish OOS.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
ZSS is way more vulnerable in her downB than you give credit for Apples, and the flipstool box needs to literally go through you. If you are ever that close to your opponent and not recovering, dive kick is better 100% of the time.
~Frozen~
Smash Apprentice
Movin up in the world, awwwww yeah
I'm not totally sold on Wolf > Falco though. I'd like to hear your opinion on what puts him on top, Jolteon.
SixSaw
Smash Journeyman
Peach's dsmash is still as cheesy as ever though. I feel like she's right at home in PM's campier meta.
Note: I am only just starting Melee and not playing Peach. I have been told that Peach vs Link is one of Link's best matchups against the high tiers. I have not played this matchup in Melee.
I am playing Peach in P:M, and against a Link main it's brutal.
The zoning part. Link doesn't have to approach, at all. He can throw out his projectiles and zair and Peach doesn't have a decent approach. Her slow fall speed particularly lets him get things set up and zair is remarkably effective.
Yeah, Peach can do a lot once she gets Link in hitstun, but Link has a dramatic zoning advantage.
Calzum!
LC | Team Heir
I agree with this statement
Sarix
Smash Ace
I guess it just depends on the play style of the Link main then. What PM Links do you face and how do they play?
Oro?!
Smash Hero
You could likely clank with Rang by nairing on reaction and float cancelling. Since you played Brawl you could also instant toss bombs back at link or catch them and AGT.
imo mobility is really important in this game and Wolf's air mobility/jumpsquat along with his laser control is strong, makes it a lot easier to beat stuff like retreat wd oos as counter-options against lasers. Having better juggling tools vs mid-weights/floaties is cool, too, though it's not like Falco is lacking in combo options lmao.
I think that 2-4 on my list are really close though, I'd conceivably put them anywhere and be happy with the result. Falco is a really solid character.
lol
It's like Wolf has moved up a single spot on every Tier List posted since the dawn of 2.1.
#1 coming soon! WOOP!
There's no way a character like melee Young Link, when given SUPERE-SAYEYISAAAIN qualities and hyper-bolic time-chamber caliber buffs, is going to be bad.
Peach is too solid to be bad either. Akin to Wario/Ivy but more explosive and less camp-poke and/or free-combo, she's too hit-box amoeba-like to ever NOT be a threat.
At least there are other Hit-box Amoeba's in PM now.
Tlock, this statement
(above spacies? maybe in the future when the meta progresses, but not now.)Contradicts the concept of a Tier List. lol
It's like Wolf has moved up a single spot on every Tier List posted since the dawn of 2.1.
#1 coming soon! WOOP!
There's no way a character like melee Young Link, when given SUPERE-SAYEYISAAAIN qualities and hyper-bolic time-chamber caliber buffs, is going to be bad.
Peach is too solid to be bad either. Akin to Wario/Ivy but more explosive and less camp-poke and/or free-combo, she's too hit-box amoeba-like to ever NOT be a threat.
At least there are other Hit-box Amoeba's in PM now.
Tlock, this statement
(above spacies? maybe in the future when the meta progresses, but not now.)Contradicts the concept of a Tier List. lol
Bryonato
Green Hat
Curious to see these as I am definitely not on the TL hype train. I just don't see what makes him a top 10 (or even top 20) character.
Change my opinion?
Oracle
Smash Master
tl is top 10 because AUTOCOMBOOOZZZZ
I'll post them up when they're done, or if you're referring to Aero then you can scroll up to Nazo's post.
Professor Pro
Smash Legend
Snake lower than TL.
So I have a 100% win rate against you with a worse character....get better plz
