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Tier List Speculation

D

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I remember M2K thinks that Sheik isn't amazing in PM. Can anyone refresh my memory on why he thinks that?

she can't edge snap in PM, and m2k thinks her grab game is worse (I think it's fine, for the record).

the real reason m2k thinks that sheik is worse is that she's relatively worse, because the other characters are much improved, which is a totally valid point. sheik isn't leaps and bounds better than the other characters like she is in melee. as such, m2k thinks she's just average ish, while i think she's narrowly better than the other characters. both are different interpretations of the same idea though.
 

Chzrm3

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I saw Eli play against M2K once as Diddy and he did alright considering it was M2K. That might've just been M2K not knowing the match-up too well, though - maybe in a few more matches he would've been getting 4 stocked.
 

Nguz95

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Alright since okami doesnt look like he wants to do it again, I want to make a final averaged list for 2.6 before 3.0 comes out. Ill say yall have a week (until next monday) to post your tier list, and ill average all the values together and make a mean ranking. If you already posted one then just quote it after this post so I dont have to go back searching
I updated my list. Check it out. Zhime moved Zelda up a lot, but I still don't think she is all that good. Metaknight moved up because he's good, and Mr. Game and Watch moved up too. There are a few other changes, but I won't go into too much detail unless you ask me about it.
S Tier
1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Wario
4. Wolf
5. Lucas
6. Mario
7. Sheik
8. Metaknight

A Tier
9. Ivysaur
10. Snake
11. Peach
12. Pit
13. Marth
14. Jigglypuff
15. Bowser
16. Zero Suit Samus
17. Donkey Kong
18. Ike
19. Zelda
20. Charizard

B Tier
21. Captain Falcon
22. Mr. Game and Watch
23. Diddy Kong
24. Lucario
25. Ness
26. Link
27. ROB
28. Toon Link
29. Sonic
30. Luigi
31. Pikachu

C Tier
32. Squirtle
33. Ganondorf
34. King Dedede
 

KayB

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she can't edge snap in PM, and m2k thinks her grab game is worse (I think it's fine, for the record).

the real reason m2k thinks that sheik is worse is that she's relatively worse, because the other characters are much improved, which is a totally valid point. sheik isn't leaps and bounds better than the other characters like she is in melee. as such, m2k thinks she's just average ish, while i think she's narrowly better than the other characters. both are different interpretations of the same idea though.
Her back throw was sort of nerf/buff situation. Its a buff for some, but it was definitely a nerf for M2K who heavily relied on grabs like f-throw and b-throw to throw characters off the stage for the edge guard.
The fact that a lot of the cast has very good recoveries also undermines M2K's sheik, so there are quite a few things that play in.



I've been screwing around with Diddy, and he's actually not as bad as I thought. The bananas are good pressure and creates a lot of openings, but the fact that he's slow to take it out and throws it behind him is a bit inconvenient. A large problem with his bananas is that opponents can easily wavedash into them to pick them up, which can essentially turn the tides against you. This is the big difference between Diddy's bananas to say Peach's turnips or LInks bombs.
His side-b is incredibly situational on stage and he usually has better options. As far as edge guarding with that move goes, I'll need to experiment more with it to see its potential.
Diddy's recovery is also a bit lackluster in some areas. While he has great horizontal distance, he has an incredibly poor vertical recovery on stages that don't have walls (like Dracula's Castle).

I don't exactly know the advantages/disadvantages between d-throw and b-throw. Is one more powerful than the other? Do you have to DI them differently? I know that d-throw is good against fast fallers at low percents as both a tech-chase and/or gimp tool, but that's about it. I could see his dair becoming a great move in the future as a combo starter should it have a larger hitbox, but for now, it's a bit mediocre.

I'm a bit torn about what particular niche Diddy Kong is better in, offense or defense. He can apply a lot of pressure through glide tossing, AGT, and overall stage control with his bananas. I can see him being able to rack up some insane damage really quickly with them. He also has an above-average ground speed and a decently sized grab range. On the flip side, his AGT and side-b gives him expanded aerial mobility. That combined with the fact that his aerials hits opponents far, his bananas for stage limitations, and peanuts for keep away make for a pretty strong defensive game.


This is just what I've gathered after playing Diddy for some time. I'm sure there are more advanced players out there with better knowledge of the character than I do, so feel free to correct/enlighten me.
 
D

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in my experience, an opponent off the edge vs sheik is still very much a dead opponent. i would argue that her edge guards are a function of experience much more so than ability, pretty much just the same as it is in melee.

her new grab game still sets up a dichotomy for reactive edge guards, but i've already covered that 35823530 times so that's enough of that pretty much. tl;dr it's fine.
 

Plum

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Sheik's Bthrow is still great when you're at the ledge.
If they DI it to avoid followups they basically put themselves in the same position as Melee Bthrow. If they DI to avoid being sent offstage at a vulnerable angle then you get a free followup.

I love Sheik in PM. I totally see where m2k is coming from as she loses her more free matchups with the Dthrow change, but she still pretty much beats any character she used to beat. Losing the chaingrab doesn't magically make those characters able to deal with everything else she has.
 

DMG

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Careful Plum, you say that now but when the new Yoshi comes out, he's gonna Grape Ape the crap out of Sheik
 

Nguz95

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What exactly can Brawl Ice Climbers do? I don't really know much about their desynchs and what they're capable of.
I honestly don't know either, but it seems that you can now have the ICs do completely different things from each other without doing weird setups. Also, it looks like their up and down aerials have been changed so they aren't just weak taps anymore. That could just be me though.
 

KayB

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I honestly don't know either, but it seems that you can now have the ICs do completely different things from each other without doing weird setups. Also, it looks like their up and down aerials have been changed so they aren't just weak taps anymore. That could just be me though.
I think the desynchs in this game are taken from both Brawl and Melee, so they might still need to do weird set ups. Idk, I need more info. While Dair may have needed a bit more tweeking, there really was nothing wrong with Ice Climbers uair. I didn't see it get a buff (at least, from what I could see), and I don't see why they would need to.

EDIT: thinking about it, strengthening his dair would actually nerf the ICs since they use the dair a lot to continue chain grabs and stuff. The weak dair is necessary for that.
 

Nguz95

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That's true. It does seem that uair hits a lot harder on Lucario than it did in Melee. If it does then I'll be happy. It's already an amazing aerial.
 

KayB

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That's true. It does seem that uair hits a lot harder on Lucario than it did in Melee. If it does then I'll be happy. It's already an amazing aerial.
I dunno. More damage is welcome, but too much knockback isn't good imo. The Melee knockback of uair allows the ice climbers to string combos very nicely with each other.
 

Ariyo

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MK's traits are insane.
Even with all those things, somehow, he still seems kinda, well, fair. He has a nice combo weight and I feel you have to be really on point with his attacks. But it's not like I'm an MK main anyway. Plus, his metagame is still being developed. He might become OP in the future.
 

Burnsy

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Is it too early to talk about Yoshi's un-pokeable, jump-cancellable, and parrying-capable sheild and how ridiculously good it'll be?

Also, was his sheild pretty durable in terms of its health relative to others in Melee? I wonder if they would decrease his sheilds durability to compensate for something that could be so polarizing.
 

Ripple

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Yoshi couldn't parry in brawl. I also don't think they would allow that kind of OPness since SDR tested it and it was absurd.

in melee his shield only lasted 1 more frame than everyone elses
 

Ripple

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parrying used to work like so...

the first 6 frames of Yoshi's shield, he was completely invulnerable. meaning he could get hit but take no damage/hitlag/knockback (think star power or respawn )

during those frames were the only time he could jump OOS.

the idea was that you should throw yourself into an attack, shield it and force the opponent to take hitlag because they hit you. then you would punish with a DJC aerial.

but in brawl they removed that. and they even made yoshi able to be shield poked
 

Ripple

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I don't see how you are confused. I described melee parrying. (don't know 64's window)

brawl didn't have parrying, no jumping at all for yoshi. brawl yoshi could even be shield poked
 

TreK

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What exactly can Brawl Ice Climbers do?
I'm not too sure what you'd want me to tell you. What exactly are you interested in knowing ? How to desynch ? What they can do while they're desynched ? The basic mechanics behind it all ?
 

Nguz95

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I'm not too sure what you'd want me to tell you. What exactly are you interested in knowing ? How to desynch ? What they can do while they're desynched ? The basic mechanics behind it all ?
Tell us all of that stuff in the Ice Climbers Social thread. I'd certainly appreciate it.
 

TreK

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Talking about the 3.0 characters seemed to be the trend here, party pooper.
I'll gladly move my gracious bottom away from this place if you guys want to actually talk about tier lists.
 

GP&B

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Well, there's still questions over what "Desyncs from both iterations of ICs" means. I think the question here is what do desyncs in Brawl allow ICs to do?
 

BJN39

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up b into the stage and land on the stage just over the lip. sheik in pm either goes the full distance or grabs the edge, in melee she can do all 3.

Do you have any visuals/video clips of this? Because I'm having a little trouble picturing it. < , <
 

Burnsy

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Well, there's still questions over what "Desyncs from both iterations of ICs" means. I think the question here is what do desyncs in Brawl allow ICs to do?
It means that P:M's input methods to desync the ICs now include techniques present
in both Melee and Brawl. Due to changes between games, Brawl ICs had new input techniques for the same or different kinds of desyncs.

There were tons of ways to desync in Brawl already, even if they only added a portion of the Melee desync inputs, it still would be a considerable buff to their desync game.
 

Ripple

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up b into the stage and land on the stage just over the lip. sheik in pm either goes the full distance or grabs the edge, in melee she can do all 3.
That isn't an edge snap. Edge snapping is a brawl term used when people were on stage right next to the ledge and essentially did a quarter circle motion to run off stage, fast fall and then grab the ledge. It was called snapping because it was so fast. Characters could grab ledge in 4-7 frames from stage
 
D

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That isn't an edge snap. Edge snapping is a brawl term used when people were on stage right next to the ledge and essentially did a quarter circle motion to run off stage, fast fall and then grab the ledge. It was called snapping because it was so fast. Characters could grab ledge in 4-7 frames from stage

sheik's and zelda's edge snaps were around a longgg time before brawl came out.

any of m2k's recent sheik sets will probably have it in there a few times.
 

Nausicaa

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I like/am glad that Squirt, Dedede, and Ganon have been relatively consistently in the bottom 3 of posted lists since the multi-page discussions that I kept bringing up over and over again.

Those characters are cute.

Except Dedede, he's probably secretly Ivan Ooze.
 

Spiffykins

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I doubt Ganon is bottom tier.

However, I also do not understand why the PMBR refuses to change jump start.

Bowser can keep his 8 frames because he's Bowser, but Ganon, Link, and DDD taking 6 frames to get into the air is just wrong.

That 1 frame makes a difference guise, pls 5 frame jump start

Project SDR
 

Mr.Random

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Can we change the way we approach the tier list? How about this like the way Melee handles it? The S tier consists of characters who are generally always tournament viable and can consistently place high in significant tournaments. The A tier consists of semi-viable characters who can place high in very competent hands, but have significant disadvantages that keep them from consistently placing high in significant tournaments. The B tier consists of characters who may have situational use, but are generally not viable for tournament use and will probably never place high when used alone, even in minor tournaments. Lastly, the F tier consists of characters who are never viable in tournament play.
 
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