Tier List Speculation

[Deleted member]

Oh hell naw. Double Team was too universal, you just threw it out. Are you offstage? It's in your best interest to Down B. Do you need to close some distance during a combo? Hmm I wonder what move will accomplish that... Want a move to relieve pressure? Dodge an attack? Thank god it doesn't smack people along the travel path lool

And I'd be willing to take those things into consideration if we didn't have other ridiculous moves grandfathered into this game already.

Anyway, I still think Lucario's good.

 

[DMG]

Very few moves were at that level of "just use it". Not as bad as Sonic spin perhaps, but you could use the same move in 3-5 situations optimally and without a ton of thought. Boost recovery, dodge an attack, keep the combo going if they fly too far away, using it as an approach or as a counter to certain approaches. That doesn't sound healthy for exploring the rest of his kit at all, combined with Dash Attack and Side B? Almost made you forget that you had tilts.

 

[Spiffykins]

And I'd be willing to take those things into consideration if we didn't have other ridiculous moves grandfathered into this game already.

Anyway, I still think Lucario's good.

I'm willing to take those things into consideration anyway, I just don't think he needed to be neutered. He'll be licking those stitches for a long time.

 

[DrinkingFood]

oh IKE that imagery

 

[Kink-Link5]

Spoiler

-Lucario is now able to on-hit cancel during hitlag, which also effectively reduces the startup of the move by 1, and is able to OHC using the C-Stick during hitlag
-Lucario's Jab 2 and Forward Smash are slightly more advantaged on block
-Lucario's Jab 3, Forward Tilt, and Up Tilt are more advantaged on block
-Lucario's Jab 1 & 2 inner hits link better into the next Jab
-Lucario's Jab 2 hits and can transition into Jab 3 slightly faster to match the animation
-Lucario's Jab 3 hits and ends earlier in the animation, reaches crouching and landing opponents better, and base knockback and angle lowered slightly
-Lucario's Forward Tilt hitbox comes out sooner, his arm during the swing is intangible, and IASA is much earlier
-Lucario's Up Tilt hitbox ends slightly sooner, damage increased slightly, and IASA is much earlier
-Lucario's Down Tilt startup greatly reduced, damage decreased slightly, and IASA is earlier
-Lucario's Down Tilt foot aura hitbox does more damage and meteors against grounded foes
-Lucario's Up Smash charges up properly, scaling damage and knockback accordingly when charged
-Lucario's Up Smash animation cleaned up, has an aura trail added to the fist, and he steps into the move instead of back giving it much more range
-Lucario's Up Smash links better, is able to cancel into landing while moving downwards, and knockback growth on the final hit decreased slightly
-Lucario's Down Smash startup greatly reduced, knockback growth decreased slightly, and inside hitbox on his front side is clankable like the other three hitboxes
-Lucario's Neutral Air damage and knockback are increased
-Lucario's Forward Air autocancels sooner, strong hit has slightly reduced base knockback, increased growth, and lasts slightly longer
-Lucario's Forward Air foot aura hitbox on strong hit does increased damage, base knockback, and has a more vertical trajectory
-Lucario's Back Air strong hit does slightly more damage, has less base knockback and growth, and lasts slightly longer
-Lucario's Back Air hand aura hitbox on strong hit does more damage, base knockback, and has a more horizontal trajectory
-Lucario's Up Air autocancels sooner, IASA is much earlier
-Lucario's Up Air foot aura hitbox does slightly more damage, base knockback, growth, and sends more vertically
-Lucario's Dash Grab and Turn Grab have a third grab box added
-Lucario's Up Throw release point adjusted to be more in front and look less awkward, and knockback growth increased significantly
-Lucario's Down Throw speed is weight dependent and has significantly less startup to be harder to DI
-Lucario's Quick Cliff Attack does not whiff when they are standing very close to the edge
-Lucario's Side B grab duration is slightly longer
-Lucario's Side B attack hitboxes adjusted in damage and knockback, with the closest being the strongest
-Lucario's Up B hitboxes adjusted so that the final hit will actually come out before the animation ends, and has a hitbox when grabbing the edge
-Lucario's Up B uses weight dependent set knockback on multihits and super cancel instead of base knockback and no growth, and the multihits are not as SDIable
-Lucario's Up B and Down B have priority over Side B for OHCs when inputting diagonally
-Lucario's Down B is reversible and preserves horizontal momentum on startup
-Lucario's Down B is intangible when he begins to move instead of partially into the dash
-Lucario's Down B movement during dash increased and smoothed out to provide more momentum when canceled at any length, goes a slightly longer distance overall, and in the air transitions into fall better

All those nerfs.

 

[DMG]

Ike used to be a boss

But then he became a lot more sensible

 

[DrinkingFood]

naw ike was just a noob sweeper
and everyone was a noob to that matchup early in 2.1
in fact you can even see his decrease in tourney success happening over the course of 2.1 if you go back tp that tournament results thread and look at all the more recent tournies

 

[DMG]

Cool, a character that can win tournaments? Seems downright jolly to me compared to other characters.

 

[Juushichi]

Oh, speaking of good characters and tier lists I recently made a post in the Link boards that might be interesting to kinda look at when making a tier list for this game:

That's pretty good advice.

If you can play a character you enjoy and also can win with it, great... however recognize that if you want to be successful, you will probably have to do what works. In Melee, that was playing at least a solidly good character. In P:M, it very well might be picking up a secondary for your character's bad matchups.

Honestly, I think that this is where this game is going to go for quite a few characters. You'll have characters you can absolutely solo throughout an entire tournament (ex. AE 2012 Fei Long/Cammy/Akuma, etc), or you'll have characters that can reasonably solo through a tournament barring you avoid a certain MU (ex. AE 2012 Zangeif) and then below that, you'll have characters that might have a shot... but it might just be better to have a secondary (ex. AE 2012 Juri).

Link might be one of those characters that can reasonably solo through a tournament barring certain MUs (could imagine Sheik one such character for him). Of course dedicated players will try to plow through those MU's anyway.

Then you have characters with viability below someone like AE Juri (like Hawk, Dan, etc etc) which might be a character like GnW (in people's minds).

 

[JCaesar]

DMG that's probably the best list I've seen in this thread (not that I totally agree with it. I think ROB and Link are too low and Lucas is way too high)

 

[DMG]

Well it's a fairly broad list that isn't strictly ordered, but thank you.

Also I had a really good post for DrinkingFood, but apparently it didn't copy when I tried saving it before refreshing the page to relogin. God it was good, that's all I can say. My soul weeps with a pain greater than he feels over the Ike nerfs

 

[Kink-Link5]

They're tweaks, DMG.

Like that tweak that makes his neutral B smaller and with weaker armor.

 

[DMG]

Ok ya got me

Tweaks + Nerfs + Blue flames

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Link is higher tier than t.link in this one. Must be his speed and power buffs along with that horizantal up-b recovery.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Link's F-tilt is frustrating to deal with. So arc

So speed

So sword

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Bacon is unreliable (although definitely usable in PM) and doesn't really change the predictable aspect of G^W approaching/how safe he is on shields. Due to some of his startup requirements, it can be hard to close the gap and then wait/reaction throw out the option. You can't get close and then Marth Swat/Sheik Aerial/pick the mixup of sex kick vs Fair or some other aerial (you can get close and Fair, which is not bad but it's super pooper predictable and hard to be safe on shield if you hit shield with it during the wrong part of your jump height or hit with the weak hitbox). In fact, his best mixup in that regard might as well be an empty SH straight into a standard ground option like Dtilt. I do that occasionally and it's surprisingly pretty ok. Most people don't expect G^W to get to the ground that quick and get the Dtilt out that quick.

How is it unreliable? He can get 4 bacons out before you can even jump over him or run right to him, and you can use from a good distance, create a wall of bacon, then slowly approach, I don't get what's unreliable in that.

If I shield the bacon, I usually end up eating 3 down-tilts without being able to get out of my shield, it pushes me back enough where I can't counter either, and a lot of G&W's moves stay out so long, he just makes a constant wall of pain

I don't know why you would approach with an attack with G&W without creating his stupid walls first, but if you do, his F-air has good range, and if I get hit by that bacon wall, it's guaranteed like 2 or 3 hits, during that time G&W just walks in an does a tilt or smash which is usually enough to kill

I'm really not understanding how that bacon is unreliable, or how G&W is bad

 

[Scythe]

http://www.twitch.tv/kirkiusprime

stream has started for our tourney, friendlies right now with Metroid!

 

[Kink-Link5]

How is it unreliable? He can get 4 bacons out before you can even jump over him or run right to him, and you can use from a good distance, create a wall of bacon, then slowly approach, I don't get what's unreliable in that.

If I shield the bacon, I usually end up eating 3 down-tilts without being able to get out of my shield, it pushes me back enough where I can't counter either, and a lot of G&W's moves stay out so long, he just makes a constant wall of pain

I don't know why you would approach with an attack with G&W without creating his stupid walls first, but if you do, his F-air has good range, and if I get hit by that bacon wall, it's guaranteed like 2 or 3 hits, during that time G&W just walks in an does a tilt or smash which is usually enough to kill

I'm really not understanding how that bacon is unreliable, or how G&W is bad

Can't jump in the time it takes Game and Watch to jump and use a move, land, jump, then use the move again?

Getting shield pressured by triple D-tilt?

 

[DMG]

If I shield the bacon, I usually end up eating 3 down-tilts without being able to get out of my shield, it pushes me back enough where I can't counter either, and a lot of G&W's moves stay out so long, he just makes a constant wall of pain

I don't know why you would approach with an attack with G&W without creating his stupid walls first, but if you do, his F-air has good range, and if I get hit by that bacon wall, it's guaranteed like 2 or 3 hits, during that time G&W just walks in an does a tilt or smash which is usually enough to kill

I'm really not understanding how that bacon is unreliable, or how G&W is bad

The Lime parts I wanna address. Shielding Bacon is not one of the go to options for most characters, and it's hard to force people to shield it when it's a slow traveling (for the most part) projectile that arcs like a basketball shot downwards. In fact the biggest worry is from characters going under Bacon and punishing you: the buff that cancels lag from airborne bacon is good but it doesn't allow you to maintain a consistent wall that's also low enough, in part due to the usual arcs of Bacon and because you're hopping in the air to use it which adds a bit of height. What it does allow you to do, is to do those 1-2 shots as a utility approach/defense and then allow you to try to go in. If you're consistently going in after a full pound of bacon is flung in, and the poor guy is shielding it all because he's allergic to pork, then I dunno what to say I really don't.


Unless the arcs have been smoothed out and made less random, it's somewhat unreliable because you don't know if you will get a high shot that's super close to the body or a lower shot that branches out more. Which is bad if you are aiming for a precise wall that's sometimes required given how characters can move in Melee.


As for the second part, that's absolutely right. G^W has a pretty decent moveset for walling. Long reach, lasting moves, good move out of CC. He's got the kit to do so, and it's recommended in a lot of MU's to not even bother approaching but to become the punishing Wall of 2D Spirit. That's the point though: being annoying with Dtilt Chair Fair and lasting moves defensively doesn't mean his approaching is all that great. If you are behind and need to catch up, I don't think Captain Falcon really cares how much you fling Bacon. I don't think many of the better characters in the game care that you're gonna approach them with Fair Nair Dtilt or Grab (OR Bacon outta nowhere). Plenty of characters aren't scared of crap from G^W approaching, and he's above average when it comes to being predictable and punishable (besides better spaced moves like Dtilt max range). Now, the difference between G^W having to approach a Fox, and being able to CC most attacks into Dtilt into a **** combo on Fox, it's kinda clear where the character is gonna lean.

 

[bubbaking]

People quit lucario because the main reason they played him in the first place was because he was cheesy and simple, which is no longer the case

IMO, Lucario was only "cheesy and simple" if you weren't trying to actually be good with him. Once you tried to actually be a great Lucario, between ASCs and other types of cancels and button coordinations, he could be surprisingly technical and complex.

That's kind of insulting to Lucario players.
Honestly, I think the only thing "cheesy and simple" about 2.1 Lucario was his Dash Attack. I would have liked to have seen him with his current dash attack but without the changes (or at least less severe changes) to Force Palm and Double Team.

This.

I used Lucario because there were so many creative ways you could link moves together. AKA he was fun as hell and still kind of is now.

And this.

Oh hell naw. Double Team was too universal, you just threw it out. Are you offstage? It's in your best interest to Down B. Do you need to close some distance during a combo? Hmm I wonder what move will accomplish that... Want a move to relieve pressure? Dodge an attack? Thank god it doesn't smack people along the travel path lool

And Shines.

I agree with DK being higher. His grabs comboing into kill moves is pretty solid

DK's grab game is quite spectacular but just "comboing into kill moves" is nothing special.

What the heck does he mean by roulette hammer? Also, he really needs controllable power. He needs the buff.

The hammer he has now is a "roulette" because the numbers he gets are completely random. If his numbers had some kind of predictable cycle, it would probably make a world of improvement for G&W as opposed to Peach's not-so-important (in relation to the whole character) fsmash, which already got that change. The PMBR has already taken steps towards normalizing some of the major random aspects of Luigi, Peach, etc. Why is G&W being excluded from the bandwagon?

Well if you do them low to the ground and L-cancel properly, it's not as bad as it seems. He can also duck under most grabs (well, most JC'd ones anyway) and punish with d-tilt, so he's not completely devoid of options.

Whenever we talk about lag, we ALWAYS assume everything is L-cancelled that can be. With that out of the way, even when L-cancelled, G&W's fair is laggy. Dtilt is one of Game's better moves. That doesn't make him a better character, especially when it's one of the relatively few (key word: relatively) safe moves he has to use at neutral, and it can easily be SHFFL'd over.

Fox is deff #1, but Falco isn't #2/

In 2.1, I'd agree with you because I had Lucario up there, and I think a lot of people had Ike up there as well, but now that both have been 'nerftweaked', the road is clear for Falco to ascend back to his old spot. The four newcomers and buffs to existing chars didn't really make things any worse for him. How is Falco troubled by ZSS, Ivy, and Squirt? I can see Diddy giving him a lot of trouble, but that's it.

 

[GamerGuy09]

My face as a Luigi, ROB, Wario, and King Dedede Main.

Does Luigi suck that bad? Why?

 

[Kink-Link5]

Most people are putting Luigi in a third tier level along with a bunch of other characters that are "good overall." Do not be fooled by the way the average tier list tier splits work; they're based purely on what numeric places people put characters at and split at intervals of greatest difference. That is to say, if EVERYONE puts Fox Falco as 1 and 2, but then the number three spot is different for everyone, all the other characters will have an average score of more than 3, giving way to a "tier split" since the gap between Falco and whoeverthe**** is "large" numerically.

The average list says nothing about the merits of nearly any character on it simply due to how its tier splits are handled, R.O.B., Luigi, and especially Wario and DeDeDe are all good characters.

 

[bubbaking]

Running at people on the ground and pressing A got harder and is more poopie

Lolz, you know that's oversimplifying it. I liked my spacee-level shield pressure. Do people forget that the spacees can also shinegrab? All they really had to do was slow down Lucario's FP a smidgen, not a crapload.

Also, has anyone noticed that 2.5 Lucario's DT is actually slower? I've been extensively testing the move and it seems slower, both startup and AND cooldown-wise, despite being told that it was only supposed to trade startup for cooldown, thus preserving the total frames of the move's animation.

Uhh, bacon? Force shield then approach or force an aerial approach

Random bacon arcs are random. Yet another random aspect that only serves to hurt G&W overall. You can't reliably approach with something when you, yourself, don't know the path it will take before you throw it out.

It's nice up here at the top, isn't it?
[COLLAPSE="Picture"]

[/COLLAPSE]

Your sig, isn't that what Leffen himself is basically guilty of?

 

[ELI-mination]

Your sig, isn't that what Leffen himself is basically guilty of?

Yup, that's the irony. Lol

 

[Jackio]

I never said I've never done it myself, I clearly have

also that quote is horribly out of context and isnt even a full sentence


but alas, haters are indeed gonna hate, so **** you, you scrubby piece of ****



on topic: most melee characters (fox/falco/marth/puff/falcon) are really low tier in this game, no question about it. The only reason some of you randoms rate them high is because their metagame has had 11 years to develop, while most of the new characters with broken autocombos and godlike recovery have had under a days worth of development from a good player.


edit: Reflex's post from a few pages back is totally correct. That invitational proved very little in way of how good a character is (wario is not that good). Even though I placed very high with ZSS compared to what I should have (considering she was JUST released before the tournament and everyone above me played mains they've already played for a long time) that doesn't mean that shes any good (shes not).
Overall I really hated that a playtester was allowed to enter and won, but I take that over worst-,most degenerate-character-design-in-the-history-of-gaming-aka-Sonic winning. Kinda crazy that the playtesters did so bad overall except for Reflex, guess that shows you how full of **** the backroom is.

A real tournament with actual prize money that isn't run during the the main event (melee/brawl bracket) and with more than 16 players would show wayyy more on a characters viability. ZSS main weakness is for example that she gets 80-20 countered by a lot of random matchups, while she does well against some other really good characters, and in a small tournament you're unlikely to encounter those matchups.
I find this to be a general trend in P:M, there's so many broken and gimmicky characters with recoveries that are often unpunishable except against that one particular character. ZSS's and other tether characters recovery are overall insanely safe, but against Sonics spring they just die no matter how they try to recover (even at 0% lol). Other recoveries are insanely safe against fox/falco type edgeguards but get destroyed by puff/sheik type edgeguards.

Overall most new recoveries/new P:M characters are broken beyond belief right now compared to the old melee metagame. I really hate that the game is turning into brawl on the edgeguarding (every recovery is GODLIKE) and character have either no combos at all in a matchup OR they have extremely autopilot 0-120 autocombos/chaingrabs. Sadly the PMBR are just too divided and just keep buffing their own character to insane amounts, totally skewing the overall balance out of bounds.



-Leffen

 

[DMG]

And what characters fit that description, so much that the stalwarts of Melee as you listed are actually low tier? Are you here to shed news on why Ivysaur or Squirtle are better than Fox? Because I'd love to hear some of the explanations for this lol. I really hope it's involving Pikachu's QAC or some underlying mechanic that's known but not fully exploited, because otherwise I just don't see how some of the better characters in Melee are literally low tier. The characters who ate it the hardest? Falcon and Ganon (of the really strong Melee characters, unless you wanna expand the list down to Luigi/Pika) probably have the worst MU's vs the new characters. You can outright fill their spots with Ike Lucario Pit Sonic, let alone add bad MU's to their chart. Besides that, what Brawl characters are crapping on Spacies or knocking Marth down so low?


Sure, nobody has the Squirtle or Diddy or D3/Snake/Lucas metagame down. That's a fair point. But what in the world is going on, in which those characters you listed (I'll even give Falcon as a free one) are low tier? Like, that basically almost implies that the better characters in Melee not only get beat by the Brawl cast, but now they struggle with the lesser Melee characters as well.

 

[ELI-mination]

on topic: most melee characters (fox/falco/marth/puff/falcon) are really low tier in this game, no question about it. The only reason some of you randoms rate them high is because their metagame has had 11 years to develop, while most of the new characters with broken autocombos and godlike recovery have had under a days worth of development from a good player.

l3ff3n: worse players blame character mechanics tbh

edit: Reflex's post from a few pages back is totally correct. That invitational proved very little in way of how good a character is (wario is not that good). Even though I placed very high with ZSS compared to what I should have (considering she was JUST released before the tournament and everyone above me played mains they've already played for a long time) that doesn't mean that shes any good (shes not).
Overall I really hated that a playtester was allowed to enter and won, but I take that over worst-,most degenerate-character-design-in-the-history-of-gaming-aka-Sonic winning. Kinda crazy that the playtesters did so bad overall except for Reflex, guess that shows you how full of **** the backroom is.

l3ff3n: worse players blame character mechanics tbh

A real tournament with actual prize money that isn't run during the the main event (melee/brawl bracket) and with more than 16 players would show wayyy more on a characters viability. ZSS main weakness is for example that she gets 80-20 countered by a lot of random matchups, while she does well against some other really good characters, and in a small tournament you're unlikely to encounter those matchups.
I find this to be a general trend in P:M, there's so many broken and gimmicky characters with recoveries that are often unpunishable except against that one particular character. ZSS's and other tether characters recovery are overall insanely safe, but against Sonics spring they just die no matter how they try to recover (even at 0% lol). Other recoveries are insanely safe against fox/falco type edgeguards but get destroyed by puff/sheik type edgeguards.

l3ff3n: worse players blame character mechanics tbh

Overall most new recoveries/new P:M characters are broken beyond belief right now compared to the old melee metagame. I really hate that the game is turning into brawl on the edgeguarding (every recovery is GODLIKE) and character have either no combos at all in a matchup OR they have extremely autopilot 0-120 autocombos/chaingrabs. Sadly the PMBR are just too divided and just keep buffing their own character to insane amounts, totally skewing the overall balance out of bounds.

l3ff3n: worse players blame character mechanics tbh

 

[Kink-Link5]

I think leffen is johning more about matchup inexperience and not knowing how to DI out of long combos than character mechanics.

Except the recovery part. Glide recoveries are good, and longer than Peach's, but with similar openings. Other recoveries are notsogood.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Leffen, since you're a longstanding Melee player, I'm surprised that you're so adamant about the individual character mechanics being a terrible mishmash of playtesters going, "my character should be better," rather than considering that the metagame is very young, especially for characters with significant changes. Most of the characters you listed as being ridiculous or polarizing have seen large changes since 2.1, some to address particular concerns and some to balance the game in general. As young as the new metagame is, I think it's unfair to say that the tiers for anyone are very clear-cut.

I disagree with your idea that the Melee characters are anything worse than solid (though I am still of the mind that many of them are great). A lot of the issue is that most of the players making that argument are not making use of all the new tactics and simply try to play the pocket Fox or Falco they had in Melee. B-Reversing lasers? RAR'd B-Air for edgeguarding? Pivot grabbing in general? Making use of SDI to deal with a lot of the new combo stuff? All of these go a long way in giving space animals new tools and challenges, but you rarely see these options used, partly because people just want to play what they're already been playing, and they need to branch out.

I'm not saying that everything you're saying is obviously incorrect (only time will tell), but it seems unfairly dismissive to say that there are many terrible design choices, that all the Melee characters are comparatively bad, and that the PMBR just tries to pump up their personal favorites. I also wonder how you feel about Wario in that sentiment--SHeLL and I did our best to try and make a character who fit well and quite fairly in this metagame, and you said he wasn't especially good. Is it the exception that proves the rule to you, or did we just not try hard enough to break him? :/

 

[TheTTimeLives]

Well put Reflex. Always nice to see someone create a concise argument in the midst of being flamed.

Btw, congrats on Apex. Your Wario is gdlk.

 

[DMG]

You're just broken as a player Reflex, God OP designer

 

[Hashtag]

You Know what i got out of leffen's post?

"I hate the new characters and the game. If this was melee i could beat you all."

He calls people "randoms" because they arent known and what not. He quite honestly the most arrogant, bigheaded person I've seen in these forums. It's sad and laughable that he regards himself so highly that he downplays every other person unless they have proven to be better than him.

Why can't he be more respectable as a human being AND player?

Why is he complaining so much because he has to think a bit more about new matchups and characters just like everyone else?

Everything about this kid just infuriates me.

Also, in reference to bubbas note on down b for lucario beimg slower. It feels that way to me as well.

 

[GunBlaze]

[COLLAPSE=When did leffen become so]

[/COLLAPSE]

 

[Deleted member]

I stopped reading after "Fox/Falco are really low tier." Why, because now other characters can challenge them? And I don't get this sentiment being thrown around that recoveries are too good in this game. Why, because many characters now have an actual chance to make it back to the stage? Please. And let's not forget that two great characters from Melee - Fox and Peach - had pretty darn good recoveries.

I never insult somebody else's opinion...except when they're being an *** about it.

 

[OkamiBW]

Peach's recovery (Up-B) was tweaked to be better.

 

[outofphase]

seriously. if you believe fox and falco are low tier, you dont understand what made them top tier in melee. speed, power, flexible options, shine, solid/amazing projectile, good combos, reliable and fast kill moves, very decent recovery on fox's part plus a great grab game, good shield pressure, both pretty good at edgeguarding. more or less all of this is still true.

plus lol at diddy being low tier some pages back. diddy has a top tier projectile, not to mention he can hold one while setting another to cover massive amounts of space, or leave one on the ground and not limit his options while covering options. most brutal edgeguarder imo. hes got good mobility, powerful d/fsmash with pretty solid setups for them because of bananas. his side b is a good tech chasing tool and a solid mixup because of its flexible option. hes got quick ground attacks to keep people out of his face when his nana control gets broken through. oh and he has BY FAR the best recovery in the game. no lag if he only needs side b, covered too well by barrels on up b while offstage. plus stray barrels can ruin your punish giving him a free reset to neutral if you stay onstage. you hit him anywhere above the stage and he lives, anywhere below he lives unless hes far from the stage horizontally AND vertically. not to mention he can go deeper on gimps than sheik. thats so bottom tier haha

 

[OkamiBW]

You do realize leffen's one of the top Fox's in Melee, right?

 

[Mr.Pickle]

A lot of people tend to forget that because of his lovely personality.

 

[OkamiBW]

He's really nice in person. :/

Spoiler

#offtopic

 

[Deleted member]

You do realize leffen's one of the top Fox's in Melee, right?

And he's seriously calling Fox low tier in Project M? The only explanation I can think of is that he ingested some type of toxin.