Tier List Speculation

[Oracle]

Lol at people still putting ike in top tier

 

[bubbaking]

Double post, but no one's posted anything since 12 hours ago.

Listen, bubbaking. I sometimes like what you have to say. I agree with your tier list for the most part and especially compared to most. But if you can't find me any videos of Squirtle doing the theories that you're saying, especially against good players, then I'm just going to be a stubborn Taurus like I am and not listen. Pretty much every other character except maybe Diddy has a spearhead or two.

Lolz, I'm a Taurus too! Well actually, I'm born directly between Taurus and Aries so that might explain my 'war-like' argumentative tendencies.

Use Marth's Neut-B on a shielding opponent.....that is a HUGE buff lol.

Wait, unless Marth's SB is safe on shield, I don't see what's preventing anyone from WD OoS > grabbing that crap. It's a nice mix-up, but I wouldn't call it a "HUGE buff". I think a nicer buff is how his DB seems to combo a lot more nicely now than it did in Melee.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6Eb85dKRP4
Here is a squirtle thats pretty good (even though he kind of gets scraped)

His Squirt is nice, but I'm wondering why he isn't abusing his bair's tail invincibility more. Like when he first tried to gimp PKT2 with Bubble and failed, getting hit, I wonder if he would have been successful had he just baired him out of it. In addition, he misses like, all of his usmash punishes on Ness' high PKT2 recoveries and he DIs bthrow badly. Also, does he know that WG can take out the PKT? It's little things like these that can make a huge difference in a MU. Still, his Squirt looks pretty smooth. Now I'm wondering if Withdraw and SS can go through Ness' PK Fire and fair.

Or make him good by giving hm a roulette for his 9-hammer........actually no, plz no.

This is an interesting idea. I wonder if the PMBR has actually tried this out. I mean, they gave this to Peach (when it probably wasn't even that important for her). Why not G&W? Perhaps some controllable insane power is what he needs.

Yea, my friend plays G&W ALL the time, I think people seriously underestimate him, ******* bacon, his moves stay out long, they're powerful and some have good range, this is just my observation, don't take it too seriously but it comes from playing against G&W constantly

Actually, his moves staying out long is part of the reason I think G&W is mediocre. It means that he can't safely throw out moves because his opponent can easily just weave around them and punish his lag. It also means that these moves are very unsafe on block. I mean, they're good for covering 'wake-up options' out of hitstun, but they hurt his neutral game. Thank goodness for Bacon, though.

I'm of the opinion that if anyone puts serious time into Lucario and figures out some crazy combos, he could be top tier. I never really see anyone play him though. He's got potential

This is exactly what most people were saying about 2.1 Lucario, early meta.

I feel like 2.1 Lucario was pretty high up in the right hands. Not so sure about 2.5 Lucario though. The change to his down-B feel like what I imagine changes to spacies would be if they got rid of their 1 frame shine.

My sentiments exactly. I also think the change to his sideB feels like what I imagine changes to Falco would feel like if they removed/changed his lasers, maybe got rid of the land cancel on them or something.

No

The first part is right. The green flash comes at the first "charge" of Luigi side B. When it will come is random. Once you see the flash, you can either let go immediately to use Misfire on the spot, or charge side B for any length of time afterwards to store it (also if you get hit or die after you see the green flash, you will keep that misfire charge).

Also, I believe once Luigi gets his first misfire, he's guaranteed to get his next one after exactly six missiles. Along those lines, he's also guaranteed to get his first misfire within his first six tries, I think.

Also, bucket braking only worked because of how brawl handled hitstun and character momentum. Hitstun is back to melee, so it already won't work, and that isn't going to change. I believe there's been some changes to how the game handled momentum too (that being that character launch speed and the character's movement speeds are completely separate, iirc) that wouldn't allow it to happen. It's not removed from GaW because someone wanted GaW to be bad (although that would be a stupid way to make him better) but because the current game mechanics won't allow it.

Well, I actually think bucket still stopped all momentum no matter what in Melee, so even with all this momentum stuff you're talking about, bucket breaking still would have worked if not for the removal of hitstun cancelling.

(though i'm having trouble getting used to pit's up B... why was his recovery nerfed?)

Brawl Up-B wouldn't have fit into a Melee environment. It was too good as a recovery move and slowed gameplay down. On the bright side, he still has a great recovery and is hard to gimp.

Still though, Pit's recovery WAS nerfed in the transition from 2.1 to 2.5. The loss of a glide is a pretty big thing, and the loss of the ability to attempt to glide (and go into that 'launch' animation) to gain momentum when out of glides is pretty big too.

 

[Archangel]

Ike is like...Falcon tier sort of..kinda? idk?

and Lucario....idk still has combos but..I think everyone who played him well quit for a reason.

 

[bubbaking]

I'm still maining him. I still like his core design, even though I disagree with his changes. GHNeko, where are those vids......? (T_T)

 

[pokemongeof]

This is totally unfair and rigged! HOW IS LUIGI THE 2ND TO WORST!!!!!! ALWAYS THE HORRIBLE TIERS!!!!!


LUIGI FOR GOD TIER, OR AT LEAST A DECENTLY GOOD TIER!!!!

 

[Strong Badam]

DK's amazing in this game, no idea what game you guys are playing.

 

[Oracle]

People quit lucario because the main reason they played him in the first place was because he was cheesy and simple, which is no longer the case

 

[Deleted member]

Still though, Pit's recovery WAS nerfed in the transition from 2.1 to 2.5. The loss of a glide is a pretty big thing, and the loss of the ability to attempt to glide (and go into that 'launch' animation) to gain momentum when out of glides is pretty big too.

I think it was warranted. His recovery was a bit too much before. There's more of a risk to going offstage. Overall, I feel that Pit is a more complete, balanced character. He lost the ridiculous recovery but gained the ability to actually KO while still maintaining a good recovery.

People quit lucario because the main reason they played him in the first place was because he was cheesy and simple, which is no longer the case

That's kind of insulting to Lucario players.
Honestly, I think the only thing "cheesy and simple" about 2.1 Lucario was his Dash Attack. I would have liked to have seen him with his current dash attack but without the changes (or at least less severe changes) to Force Palm and Double Team.

 

[DMG]

Oh hell naw. Double Team was too universal, you just threw it out. Are you offstage? It's in your best interest to Down B. Do you need to close some distance during a combo? Hmm I wonder what move will accomplish that... Want a move to relieve pressure? Dodge an attack? Thank god it doesn't smack people along the travel path lool

 

[KayB]

People quit lucario because the main reason they played him in the first place was because he was cheesy and simple, which is no longer the case

I used Lucario because there were so many creative ways you could link moves together. AKA he was fun as hell and still kind of is now.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I like newcario, to be frank. Reversible down B makes his neutral game much more dynamic.

 

[DMG]

Give Lucario an incentive to use more than Dash Attack, Side B, and Down B, and I'm sold

 

[kibago]

I agree with DK being higher. His grabs comboing into kill moves is pretty solid, and his dash attack -> off ledges leads to cool edge guards. Again, I think all things PM will change with more experience/innovation.
I disagree with Lucario players quitting because he wasn't simple. If people didn't want simple characters they wouldn't play Fox/Falco who require crazy tech skill

 

[KayB]

This is an interesting idea. I wonder if the PMBR has actually tried this out. I mean, they gave this to Peach (when it probably wasn't even that important for her). Why not G&W? Perhaps some controllable insane power is what he needs.

What the heck does he mean by roulette hammer? Also, he really needs controllable power. He needs the buff.

Actually, his moves staying out long is part of the reason I think G&W is mediocre. It means that he can't safely throw out moves because his opponent can easily just weave around them and punish his lag. It also means that these moves are very unsafe on block.

Well if you do them low to the ground and L-cancel properly, it's not as bad as it seems. He can also duck under most grabs (well, most JC'd ones anyway) and punish with d-tilt, so he's not completely devoid of options.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I just think Game and Watch is subpar because he has all the slow of Ike and a third of the range with none of the power.

 

[Silly Kyle]

Peach is a top five character <3

 

[JTsm]

Fox is deff #1, but Falco isn't #2/

 

[Spiffykins]

Give Lucario an incentive to use more than Dash Attack, Side B, and Down B, and I'm sold

He already has that. Side b is slower and harder to hit, down b has more startup, and missed dash attacks are more punishable. You ain't suggesting he get nerfed AGAIN, are you?

 

[Kink-Link5]

Because a better linking U-smash and the ability to reverse down B are such big nerfs.

 

[DMG]

I just think Game and Watch is subpar because he has all the slow of Ike and a third of the range with none of the power.

No. The power part is fine, but the mixup factor isn't there. G&W can't get close to people, and on the fly change what he's gonna do. He can't shield pressure like a god. He's a brick wall. (Not implying some of this for Ike, G&W has his own set of problems but I have to say I'm starting to like him more and don't consider him the worst anymore at all)

He already has that. Side b is slower and harder to hit, down b has more startup, and missed dash attacks are more punishable. You ain't suggesting he get nerfed AGAIN, are you?

No lol. I was talking from the perspective of 2.1 Lucario. That shifting away how centralized he was around those moves was good. People are debating the pros and cons of 2.5 Lucario, and I basically said as long as you shift less focus on those moves and flesh out the rest of the character it's good.

Because a better linking U-smash and the ability to reverse down B are such big nerfs.

YEAH BRO

Running at people on the ground and pressing A got harder and is more poopie

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

No. The power part is fine, but the mixup factor isn't there. G&W can't get close to people, and on the fly change what he's gonna do. He can't shield pressure like a god.

Uhh, bacon? Force shield then approach or force an aerial approach

 

[KayB]

G&W has redonkulous amounts of power its not even funny. He's pretty much riddled with KO moves.... which in the end is his downfall. It's true, he really needs more mix-up potential. If he had that (as well as increased weight) he would easily be mid-tier imo.

 

[DMG]

Bacon is unreliable (although definitely usable in PM) and doesn't really change the predictable aspect of G^W approaching/how safe he is on shields. Due to some of his startup requirements, it can be hard to close the gap and then wait/reaction throw out the option. You can't get close and then Marth Swat/Sheik Aerial/pick the mixup of sex kick vs Fair or some other aerial (you can get close and Fair, which is not bad but it's super pooper predictable and hard to be safe on shield if you hit shield with it during the wrong part of your jump height or hit with the weak hitbox). In fact, his best mixup in that regard might as well be an empty SH straight into a standard ground option like Dtilt. I do that occasionally and it's surprisingly pretty ok. Most people don't expect G^W to get to the ground that quick and get the Dtilt out that quick.

 

[PK Gaming]

yo DMG, do you mind posting your own variant of a tier list?

or at least, place the characters you're sure about in certain tiers :]

 

[DMG]

I can do one better. I can also list next to some of the characters why I'd place them there. Most of the list will not be ordered out of sheer laziness.

Top 8 Contenders (More than 8 characters listed, but characters that likely will fight or rotate for these spots in 2.5)

1. Fox (Fox is Gahliek)

2. Falco (Falco is Godlike Jr)

3-6. Jiggs (I think Jiggs might have suffered the most from the character buffs/new characters introduced)

Sheik (Even without the same devastating Dthrow, she is still highly efficient and IMO a staple top 8 no matter how you slice it.)

Marth (HE'S GOOD! Good MU's vs Brawl characters, arguably still does great vs the buffed Mario DK etc)

Peach (She also imo has a pretty good MU spread vs Brawl people and is doing fine)

// These 6 are basically a given in whatever order minus Fox and Falco being #1 and #2, don't listen to people who have Mario Bowser DK etc in top 5. Top 8 contenders continued here, but with characters who would not break top 5 imo //

7-9. Wolf (I used to not like Wolf, and I think his laser game is overrated, but his spacing and combo ability are not to be ignored)

Mario (Everyone has a Mario boner, but I'm wary of placing him super high because I think his approach game is more limited than people want to accept and that he gets too many free Dairs/grabs/etc landed because people rush at him instead of wait and space. People also clamouring over his grab game I guess failed to realize he had these tools in Melee, and that the only new thing is Fair kills out of it)

Sonic (Spin to Spin. Sethlon is in my region: I'd be scared to death if you combined Wizzrobe willingless to wait, with Sethlon's offensive power into 1 person with Sonic.)


Top 12 contenders (none of this ordered):

Ike (Even with the nerfs, Ike is still a solid character and not much has changed combo or range wise. He just isn't as excessive as before, and his flaws come into play much more often)

Pit (I dunno where to place Pit, I don't understand completely the implications of removing the second glide or how his combo game was changed/improved from 2.1 to 2.5 What I'm used to is a Pit that uses a LOT of Arrows, but who isn't as fluid or scary on offense so I'm probably really biased against him. With that said, I don't think his MU spread is all that great vs the better characters of the game and that's good enough for me)

Wario (Wario is a very solid character now after his buffs. He's a fairly unique character that will take a bit of experience playing against to get used to. Ask Reflex if you want, people aren't used to what the optimal DI options are vs Wario or what you can CC/shield/space away from effectively yet. He has solid tools, but a placement in top 8 would be a mirage and inflation of his actual potential)

Snake (Very impressive defensively. Another character I don't have a lot of EXP with or against, most people play him similar to Brawl Snake and the offensive side of the character hasn't been nearly explored as the OOS Upb usage looool)

Bowser (Bowser would be like god on Earth IF he didn't have to deal with grabs. Grabbing and Launching are Bowser's 2 main weaknesses and being a big, non fast falling character he has to deal with those 2 a lot. He can go toe to toe and compete with a lot of characters attack wise, but getting grabbed or juggled is literally the death of this character. On a lesser note, strong projectile or camping games tend to also give him a bit of a problem.)

Lucas (Captain Potential over here. Once someone plays fluidly with him and optimizes damage/combo strings, he will be pretty damn good.)

Falcon (Everyone hates on Falcon, and while he isn't the same superstar as before, he's not sliding into 20th/super low placement imo. There are some unfavorable Brawl MU's, Sheik and Falco are still lame, and the Melee character buffs probably tighten up his advantages/get him closer to even in some MU's. With that said, if you compare his tools to other characters people clamour for these spots like say Ivysaur?, I think it's super obvious that Falcon is still better and frankly only suffers a few spots due to better characters being added or buffed a bit.)

Lucario (Lucario is still good, ask if he would rather be Ness or Lucario lol)

DK (THE HANDS! I swear to god this character grabs and smacks at ranges that are crazy. People putting DK anywhere under the top half mark of the tier list are absolutely crazy. He's predictable, but efficient and in some Tech Chase situations just as or nearly as scary as the Falcon/Sheik/Marth's of the game)


(This list is huge, because I feel there are a lot of "high tiers" in the game right now. Power or potential wise, a lot of these characters feel similar. However, I do feel there's a distinction between these characters and say ROB/TL/Luigi/etc. Only 2-4 characters past this point feel comparable, and the rest can use some love imo)


Solid Mid Tier/under those character:

D3
ZSS
Ganon
Pika
Link
Zard
TL
ROB
Luigi

(Don't have much to say about these characters, unordered and a few of them comparable to the character above. Like I don't think Ganon or D3 are that far off, but I wouldn't list them as staple contenders for those spots etc)



As far as "lower" characters, I dunno how I feel about G^W anymore but I do think that Ness is an obvious bot 5. People seem to hate Squirtle, but it doesn't "feel" right for him to be bot 5. Diddy I doubt anyone has a clue due to how different he will have to play and due to how different his actual movement is, ZSS ain't too bad, heck Ivy is the only new one I think is really lack luster.

ELI! Tell people about how gahlike DK is.

 

[Spiffykins]

I think Link deserves to be on the top 12 contender list. Good recovery, good SHFFL, good projectiles, good range, good OOS options, good combos, good kill power, etc. He's fairly straightforward, but he seems very versatile which makes me think he'd have a lot of favorable matchups.

 

[DMG]

He got noticeable nerfs/fixes in 2.5 though. The grab one in particular is huge, and the boomerang change also made one of his staple options a bit less strong for comboing (sends them more away, harder to combo with). 2.1 Link was pretty strong and I'd have him up there, but from what I'm seeing he's not the same CGing and Boomeranging beast as before.

To expand a bit on that, the grab changes means that he cannot grab airborne opponents nearly as effectively as he could before. He may retain a bit of CG potential, but the grab also fares worse against air approaches that he could prior pivot grab/grab them out of. I also think his Dthrow, along with other similar nasty Dthrows, got a knockback growth increase so that CGing in general with say Mario Link TL etc Dthrow isn't so nasty.

 

[Spiffykins]

I know his grab was changed, but from what I've seen he still has potent combos out of grabs so I'm not sure it's such a huge detriment. I'm tempted to see him as Marth 2.0 with a sex kick and projectiles, but I'm sure that's exactly what people thought early on in Melee so I could be just as wrong.

Still, any character with a proper moonwalk gets bumped up a few spots for me regardless of how good they are just because of the stylin'.

 

[DMG]

Watch Sonic moonwalk

 

[PK Gaming]

dope list

you went above and beyond what I asked for, you have my thanks.

i hope the tier list stays that way since my mains (pit, wario, fox) are well off. at the same time, i realize that p:m is constantly changing, so i shouldn't be too comfortable with the way things are set up.

 

[DMG]

Did you play Wario in 2.1? Because he's a ton better now lol, if you did you'd love everything they changed or buffed.

 

[PK Gaming]

Yeah. I actually haven't played 2.5 yet(though I plan to fix that, I just need to unpack my Wii).

I'm just watching videos / reading up on the changes. Can't wait to get my hands on the game, I heard 2.5 was significantly better than 2.1, and has a couple of easter eggs too.

 

[DMG]

2.5 is amazing, so much was improved. Can't even list it all.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

2.5 is amazing, so much was improved. Can't even list it all.

neither can the PMBR, apparently

 

[DMG]

They actually posted a change log of 2.1 to 2.5.

PMBR - 1000 points

 

[ELI-mination]

No don't rope me into a tier list discussion unless the discussion is "are spacies ********?" and my answer will be yes

 

[#HBC | Joker]

They actually posted a change log of 2.1 to 2.5.

PMBR - 1000 points

Oh snap! Get me, then.

 

[DMG]

No no, not a tier list discussion

A DK discussion

He's awesome Eli. He's Buttered Toast AND Biscuits

 

[ELI-mination]

It's nice up here at the top, isn't it?

 

[PK Gaming]

No no, not a tier list discussion

A DK discussion

He's awesome Eli. He's Buttered Toast AND Biscuits