Tier List Speculation

[DrinkingFood]

Yoshi's fair isn't even comparable to fox's upair
but it is a very good move, safe on shield, beats CC by virtue of being a meteor, leads to a punish on hit at all percents, and on yoshi specifically as a character it's hard to punish on whiff unless you're fast with a good tool for whiff punishing (usually a good grab) because DJC means he doesn't have to spend much time in the air before he starts the fair and means he can shift momentum completely right before it starts.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Yoshi's fair isn't even comparable to fox's upair
but it is a very good move, safe on shield, beats CC by virtue of being a meteor, leads to a punish on hit at all percents, and on yoshi specifically as a character it's hard to punish on whiff unless you're fast with a good tool for whiff punishing (usually a good grab) because DJC means he doesn't have to spend much time in the air before he starts the fair and means he can shift momentum completely right before it starts.

But is it TOO good? I honestly think compared to other tools i dont think its too good, maybe average when we really break it down. But once again my main probably skews the perception because i feel like its easy to punish.

 

[didds]

Yoshi fair's biggest problem is that he doesn't have much else that forces you to respect it. For all of yoshis versatile burst movement, there is still a zone in front of him that he cants really threaten well.

Neutral b is great as far as where it covers and that its a grab but doesn't really lead to much.

Dtilt has range but again doesn't lead to much and commits yoshi to covering the ground.

Dash attack covers a good zone and is quick to throw out, but loses to cc until whatever percent and is very punishable if read or just shielded.

3.5 was different when he had some gross marth/Lucas hybrid dd grab game to also work with but grab isn't as reliable now that a random jump can negate it. Man his old grab game was stupid.

Good for punishes and I like that moves like fair exist. The startup isn't super crazy but it definitely helps keep yoshi from getting even more ridiculous punishes then he already gets. Some times he just can't reach with fair.

And I know that yoshi can use his djc nair and the like for quick, relatively safe pressure, but I also think it's sometimes understated how much of a risk he has to put himself in for this.

He's literally the only character that sacrifices his entire recovery for the sake of his neutral game, gives him cool things to do but still, it limits what he can do since a smart yoshi will refrain from certain approaches until he can guarantee a hit on shield or something

 

[Player -0]

He's literally the only character that sacrifices his entire recovery for the sake of his neutral game, gives him cool things to do but still, it limits what he can do since a smart yoshi will refrain from certain approaches until he can guarantee a hit on shield or something

Uhh, Ness? (Lucas has usable disjointed)

 

[didds]

Uhh, Ness? (Lucas has usable disjointed)

Those guys can at least up b, I know ness is kind of a sitting duck with his but they at least have an option. Egg roll pretty much needs a dj to have any sort of mixup at all

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Uhh, Ness? (Lucas has usable disjointed)

"His entire recovery"

Anyways i heard that marth is a bad match up for bowser. I dont really agree that its bad outside of when bowser gets grabbed or forward smashed. I would give marth the MU but only by like 45-55... Not a terribly skewed match up because bowser has tools to edge guard and fire can space marth out fairly well along with Ftilt, Dtilt, ect.

 

[CELTiiC]

Trust me you dont want falcon interacting with you. The nair cross ups are really hard to punish because falcons air speed and momentum has him out of your range before you are even out of hit stun unless they screw up. The only option you have is up b out of shield which a good falcon would punish with something that ends in a knee. And i agree that there are way worse match ups (Which is scary) but falcon is still a 70-30 or 80-20

Have you ever tried grabbing the ledge after you Up B OOS or after you Up B in general? It helps eliminate the end lag tremendously, in fact I find it essentially in match-ups like that. Plus Bowser's ledge options under 100 aren't terrible, so getting back on stage safely isn't always a problem. It would definitely help you from getting knee'd.

"His entire recovery"

Anyways i heard that marth is a bad match up for bowser. I dont really agree that its bad outside of when bowser gets grabbed or forward smashed. I would give marth the MU but only by like 45-55... Not a terribly skewed match up because bowser has tools to edge guard and fire can space marth out fairly well along with Ftilt, Dtilt, ect.

I don't think Marth is a great match-up for Bowser. Marth's spike is super devastating and his edge guards on Bowser are pretty bread and butter. Also Bowser has a terrible time getting out of juggles, and Marth can easily put you in a position to be juggled. I feel I'm not playing the match-up right, but outside of Marth-ritis keeping us alive longer for some of our stocks I don't feel it's a 55-45 at worst. I'd say more along the lines of 60-40 definitely.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Have you ever tried grabbing the ledge after you Up B OOS or after you Up B in general? It helps eliminate the end lag tremendously, in fact I find it essentially in match-ups like that. Plus Bowser's ledge options under 100 aren't terrible, so getting back on stage safely isn't always a problem. It would definitely help you from getting knee'd.



I don't think Marth is a great match-up for Bowser. Marth's spike is super devastating and his edge guards on Bowser are pretty bread and butter. Also Bowser has a terrible time getting out of juggles, and Marth can easily put you in a position to be juggled. I feel I'm not playing the match-up right, but outside of Marth-ritis keeping us alive longer for some of our stocks I don't feel it's a 55-45 at worst. I'd say more along the lines of 60-40 definitely.

Yea i totally forgot about the dair on the recovery. 40-60 sounds right then lol

 

[nimigoha]

Two tier lists posted in the Southern Ontario PM Facebook group, made by Hello and Rongushu respectively, two of the power ranked players.

Goes to show how much skew regions can have in their Tier lists. Fire is a DK main and is ranked 4. Hammertime is a GW main and ranked 5. Blitz is an Ike main and ranked 6. All three placings generally far above anything posted in this thread, imo pretty much because the region has characters who do very well.

I don't think they're good tier lists at all, I just wanted to give an example of how the players you play with more frequently can affect your judgment.

(Also the Ness placement on Hello's list... lol)

 

[MTL Kyle]

is gnw still cancer to u guys

He's cancer until the next PM major.

This thread in a nutshell lmaoo

I don't think they're good tier lists at all, I just wanted to give an example of how the players you play with more frequently can affect your judgment.

(Also the Ness placement on Hello's list... lol)

Note how Rongunshu, someone that started on PM and never touched Melee seriously thinks Fox is the best character, while Hello, an oldschool player that has tried out pretty much every Smash game already, puts him in A tier and definitely not as the best character.

I see a worrying trend

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

This thread in a nutshell lmaoo




Note how Rongunshu, someone that started on PM and never touched Melee seriously thinks Fox is the best character, while Hello, an oldschool player that has tried out pretty much every Smash game already, puts him in A tier and definitely not as the best character.

I see a worrying trend

Interesting point, but I think your credibility is weakened by the fact that both the tier list completely suck lol.

Also Kyle, I think you have some really good things to say and really wish you would be a little less of a **** and a little more happy to explain what you're trying to say and to back up your out of the blue statements of "fact". Also if you would bash people less and act more mature in general, people are going to take what you are saying more seriously.

 

[Ningildo]

Reminder that the same tier list with Fox in A has ****ing Bowser a tier below him and Ness in S.

Also both have Oli at bottom, so by default they suck 9.9

These tier lists would be better understood if we knew the reasoning behind the placements. If they posted something like that on FB, nimigoha , sharing it would be helpful.

 

[SunJester]

Fox in the current meta is the best character in the game.

However, I'm convinced with the changes made to Fox, and the diverse cast, that there are characters that counter Fox.

He might not remain the best character in the game as the meta develops. I think Fox is in a decent place (balance wise) right now.

 

[nimigoha]

Oh my god guys please please please can we not derail this into a Fox conversation.

Ningildo I'm in class right now, I'll see if I can find some justifications afterwards. They're all scattered in separate comments though.

Edit: so they each have like 5 character justifications in the posts. None about Fox or any high tiers really. Mentioned Sonic, Bowser, Kirby, and Rongunshu **** on Roy a bit, said his matchup spread was bad.

Rongunshu:

"Roy isn't great at all imo. He gets bodied by a lot of characters and he can't edgeguard with only kill power being better than Marth's kill power. Everything else is worse. So basically bad matchup spread"

"Also I think Kirby has a weak neutral and punish game especially because you can't camp the ledge like in 3.0 and kirby has been nerfed in 3.6, removing some of his tools further"

"Sonic has almost no exposure. Until proven otherwise, Sonic is there."

Hello:

"Sonic is pretty bad but II like watching sonic. Ike is good no matter what. Snake is between the two, but still better."

So as far as justifications go... That's it.

 

[Oracle]

so what i've gotten from the past few pages is that we're giving fox yoshis fair, is that about accurate

 

[SunJester]

I think a proper tier list is mostly predictive but understands that general trends of the success of certain characters are representative of the character's viability.

Essentially you have to pay attention to the metagame as a whole, and make predictions based on that.

If you don't, you get people who put Ness in S tier, lol.

 

[Ningildo]

Oh my god guys please please please can we not derail this into a Fox conversation.

Ningildo I'm in class right now, I'll see if I can find some justifications afterwards. They're all scattered in separate comments though.

Edit: so they each have like 5 character justifications in the posts. None about Fox or any high tiers really. Mentioned Sonic, Bowser, Kirby, and Rongunshu **** on Roy a bit, said his matchup spread was bad.

Rongunshu:

"Roy isn't great at all imo. He gets bodied by a lot of characters and he can't edgeguard with only kill power being better than Marth's kill power. Everything else is worse. So basically bad matchup spread"

"Also I think Kirby has a weak neutral and punish game especially because you can't camp the ledge like in 3.0 and kirby has been nerfed in 3.6, removing some of his tools further"

"Sonic has almost no exposure. Until proven otherwise, Sonic is there."

Hello:

"Sonic is pretty bad but II like watching sonic. Ike is good no matter what. Snake is between the two, but still better."

So as far as justifications go... That's it.

The vagueness is real.

e.g.:
What characters does Roy get bodied by?
What parts of Roy are worse then Marth and how does this affect his MUs?
Why does Kirby have a bad neutral/punish game?
What tools have been removed for Kirby?
Is there any reason other than lack of exposure for Sonic's low placement?

Hello's reasoning isn't even reasoning, it's him restating his opinion, so...

This actually explained very little, lol. Sounds like another case of "I get bodied by character xyz and instead of learning the MU, I'll claim the character is top tier, so my loss doesn't look as bad". It probably isn't, so here's hoping they can enlighten us as to their tier lists with something a little less vague.

Inb4 someone brings up that "I get bodied by character xyz and instead of learning the MU, I'll claim the character is top tier, so my loss doesn't look as bad" can also be used to explain away Fox at S.

 

[MLGF]

Two tier lists posted in the Southern Ontario PM Facebook group, made by Hello and Rongushu respectively, two of the power ranked players.

Goes to show how much skew regions can have in their Tier lists. Fire is a DK main and is ranked 4. Hammertime is a GW main and ranked 5. Blitz is an Ike main and ranked 6. All three placings generally far above anything posted in this thread, imo pretty much because the region has characters who do very well.

I don't think they're good tier lists at all, I just wanted to give an example of how the players you play with more frequently can affect your judgment.

(Also the Ness placement on Hello's list... lol)

Sounds about right, a lot of people in my state thinks all the top player's characters are top tier... even Charizard for some reason.

 

[nimigoha]

Sounds about right, a lot of people in my state thinks all the top player's characters are top tier... even Charizard for some reason.

Honestly it's really just a testament to the balance of the game. Where a player can be the best with pretty much whatever character they pick.

Like I still wouldn't say Ness is top tier or Pit is bottom tier but it's better than every PR being a bunch of Spacies.

 

[Life]

Why are people taking seriously a list that has Ness as the third-best character in the game?

Like, I'm in the Ness-is-bad camp, though I admit that "bad" in PM is more like "has a handful of really nasty matchups but is otherwise perfectly playable," so I understand that other people think he's alright. But better than characters that have actually won nationals? Really? -_-

I also think GnW is overrated (does Marth suddenly not pseudo-counter GnW anymore?) but given MrLz's success it's at least understandable. I had him as a top pick like a year ago when basically everyone else around him got nerfed, but the more I understand the game the less inclined I am to give him a spot in the top tier (unless you've got no S-tier and a semi-broad A-tier).

On the subject of Fox: he's still the best character in the game, or at least in the highest tier, but that has less to do with XYZ being broken and more to do with the fact that he has a set of tools which enable him to overcome any matchup. Compare with someone like Bowser, who is perfectly fine in many matchups but doesn't have the tools to deal with something like ICs.

Tiers in this game are basically "no awful matchups," "very few and/or rare awful matchups," and "sufficiently common debilitating matchups." And compared to the official games, tier lists in PM are not as good a predictor of a character getting hard countered in a specific matchup.

 

[MTL Kyle]

Also Kyle, I think you have some really good things to say and really wish you would be a little less of a **** and a little more happy to explain what you're trying to say and to back up your out of the blue statements of "fact". Also if you would bash people less and act more mature in general, people are going to take what you are saying more seriously.

Oh *****, please.

How the **** you can talk about maturity if you can't discuss with someone ignoring the bad bits. FFS.

Whatever I say is self explanatory, I'm not going over the same point over and over so you can go full reddit and choose the forum discussion option select (ad hominem, "a ha, I found a fallacy, I won the discussion" or "please, objectively, explain why girth is better than length when having intercouses").

If you wanna take whatever I say seriously, just do it and stop being such a princess about it. If you don't, it's fine, just refrain from replying me and that's it lol

Fox in the current meta is the best character in the game.

*facepalm*

 

[FreeGamer]

Rongunshu:

"Also I think Kirby has a weak neutral and punish game especially because you can't camp the ledge like in 3.0 and kirby has been nerfed in 3.6, removing some of his tools further"

>implying Kirbycide camping carried his entire neutral and punish games
>implying the Cutter Spike nerf was a big deal for his kit
>implying you understand anything about this character

 

[Player -0]

MTL Kyle Could you make an effort to talk about the thread instead of just trolling (or whatever you want to call it)? If not could you just leave? You've been distracting people from the thread as well as not contributing (positively).

 

[SunJester]

*facepalm*

 

[_Chrome]

Two tier lists posted in the Southern Ontario PM Facebook group, made by Hello and Rongushu respectively, two of the power ranked players.

Goes to show how much skew regions can have in their Tier lists. Fire is a DK main and is ranked 4. Hammertime is a GW main and ranked 5. Blitz is an Ike main and ranked 6. All three placings generally far above anything posted in this thread, imo pretty much because the region has characters who do very well.

I don't think they're good tier lists at all, I just wanted to give an example of how the players you play with more frequently can affect your judgment.

(Also the Ness placement on Hello's list... lol)

So the April Fool's tier lists came early this year, huh?

Please tell me they're not serious.

 

[Life]

So the April Fool's tier lists came early this year, huh?

Please tell me they're not serious.

From what I understand it's supposed to show how regional character representation can alter one's perception of character tiers (note DK in particular).

 

[_Chrome]

From what I understand it's supposed to show how regional character representation can alter one's perception of character tiers (note DK in particular).

Oh absolutely! But as nimigoha said, people need to pay attention the meta game as a whole rather than basing their opinions solely on their own experiences/region.

It goes to show that even if you are good at the game, your beliefs aren't dogma (hint hint Kyle). They didn't even give good reasoning behind their selections (as nimigoha pointed out). Despite the fact that these players are good, they made some of the worst tier lists many of us have seen in a while.

EDIT/TL;DR: You can't just say "Fox is gud/not gud guiz."

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Two tier lists posted in the Southern Ontario PM Facebook group, made by Hello and Rongushu respectively, two of the power ranked players.

Goes to show how much skew regions can have in their Tier lists. Fire is a DK main and is ranked 4. Hammertime is a GW main and ranked 5. Blitz is an Ike main and ranked 6. All three placings generally far above anything posted in this thread, imo pretty much because the region has characters who do very well.

I don't think they're good tier lists at all, I just wanted to give an example of how the players you play with more frequently can affect your judgment.

(Also the Ness placement on Hello's list... lol)

So one of them is a Melee player primarily... The top ranked player in our region has questionable opinions too regarding PM characters' viability. I talked to him about tier lists and he said Sonic's bad. I asked him why and he said, he dies early. And SDIing throws in this game is hard so uthrow uair kills him at 80. Lol because Puff is bad in Melee and she dies even earlier. Ontario is whack.

Honestly though, what I think it is is that some Melee players don't have the same exposure (not just in actual play, but exposure to videos online) since their main game is Melee, and that they get by based on the fact that they're one level up on everyone else since they've been playing for so much longer. So yeah, they're the best players in the region, but that doesn't mean they're the most suitable to be coming up with tier lists.

P.S. A few pages ago I asked if anyone could explain what Falco's bad matchups are and why and literally no one responded. I hear people say he has counters all the time and tbh I can't think of many. I made a list a few pages ago speculating what /could/ be his more even-bad matchups, and I think I left out some obvious ones like Samus. All I'm trying to say is that I've given it a thought and I'm not just throwing this up onto my keyboard.

 

[Player -0]

Well I originally thought Pit might have the edge in the Falco MU but if Falco plays the MU right it might be 0 to -1 for Pit. I just really need to play it. The thing is Pit can't start anything without a grab. You can get this grab with good anti laser (then get through the spacing/dash dance) play. After that though you need the Falco to be at like 30-50% (rough estimates off top of my head). Before that you need to tech chase Falco and dash attack isn't that great at that early of a percent because ASDI down beats it -> shine. So you need a regrab or Up-Smash (which is super SDI-able).

So Pit can get on Falco but starts stuff at percents around where other characters can already be in a combo/juggle and set up into an edgeguard. Pit's tools don't specifically help him in this MU.

Life


If Kirby plays MU right he might have the advantage (aka camps harder than the Falco lol)

 

[Avro-Arrow]

^ Yeah Kirby can actually put in some work on Falco. Punishes can be zero--> death if you go into an edgeguard; all they take is good execution. And he can crouch under lasers. Kirby can kind of move in places outside of Falco's general threatening range because of multiple jumps, and fast initial dash speed, lending him a decent micro-spacing game when factored in with his fast wavedash. The tilts are alright, he has a tech chase, and bair. Nair's a good panic move, fair's good too, and landing fsmash/dsmash sets up for edgeguards (which, when optimized, should most always lead to a kill). Plus, taking his ability means short hop double lasers IIRC.

It's actually a matchup I've practiced a lot (although not in 3.6) and got pretty good at. Easier than his matchup against Fox which I found workable as well.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Yoshi fair's biggest problem is that he doesn't have much else that forces you to respect it. For all of yoshis versatile burst movement, there is still a zone in front of him that he cants really threaten well.

Neutral b is great as far as where it covers and that its a grab but doesn't really lead to much.

Dtilt has range but again doesn't lead to much and commits yoshi to covering the ground.

Dash attack covers a good zone and is quick to throw out, but loses to cc until whatever percent and is very punishable if read or just shielded.

3.5 was different when he had some gross marth/Lucas hybrid dd grab game to also work with but grab isn't as reliable now that a random jump can negate it. Man his old grab game was stupid.

Good for punishes and I like that moves like fair exist. The startup isn't super crazy but it definitely helps keep yoshi from getting even more ridiculous punishes then he already gets. Some times he just can't reach with fair.

And I know that yoshi can use his djc nair and the like for quick, relatively safe pressure, but I also think it's sometimes understated how much of a risk he has to put himself in for this.

He's literally the only character that sacrifices his entire recovery for the sake of his neutral game, gives him cool things to do but still, it limits what he can do since a smart yoshi will refrain from certain approaches until he can guarantee a hit on shield or something

dash grab
run in dtilt
tada, yoshi can now threaten that zone in front of him
yes, if read these are punishable; that's how every character works.

EDIT: Also can the participants of this thread just make concerted efforts to add MTL Kyle to the ignore list? He has a history of being incapable of actual discussion, then blowing it off with "KEK! I WAS JUST PRETENDING TO BE ********! I WAS MERELY TROLLING!". This isn't going to change the more you try to convince him of anything. Detracts from actual discussion happening every time you respond to him.

 

[Life]

Well I originally thought Pit might have the edge in the Falco MU but if Falco plays the MU right it might be 0 to -1 for Pit. I just really need to play it. The thing is Pit can't start anything without a grab. You can get this grab with good anti laser (then get through the spacing/dash dance) play. After that though you need the Falco to be at like 30-50% (rough estimates off top of my head). Before that you need to tech chase Falco and dash attack isn't that great at that early of a percent because ASDI down beats it -> shine. So you need a regrab or Up-Smash (which is super SDI-able).

So Pit can get on Falco but starts stuff at percents around where other characters can already be in a combo/juggle and set up into an edgeguard. Pit's tools don't specifically help him in this MU.

Life

Seems about right. Falco can just tank a lot of Pit's stuff at low percents and for someone as fragile as Falco that's a huge deal. That said, I think Pit does out-edgeguard Falco in the matchup, it's just getting there that's hard.

Falco's combo game on Pit isn't super ridiculous since we're floaty enough to survive dair spikes at moderate percents and also floaty enough to make shine combos a bear. (Same combo properties as Pikachu.)

Uthrow on platforms might be enough to get some stuff started at low percents, but on stages where that's less than ideal I'm not sure how to play Pit in this matchup.

 

[FreeGamer]

^ Yeah Kirby can actually put in some work on Falco. Punishes can be zero--> death if you go into an edgeguard; all they take is good execution. And he can crouch under lasers. Kirby can kind of move in places outside of Falco's general threatening range because of multiple jumps, and fast initial dash speed, lending him a decent micro-spacing game when factored in with his fast wavedash. The tilts are alright, he has a tech chase, and bair. Nair's a good panic move, fair's good too, and landing fsmash/dsmash sets up for edgeguards (which, when optimized, should most always lead to a kill). Plus, taking his ability means short hop double lasers IIRC.

It's actually a matchup I've practiced a lot (although not in 3.6) and got pretty good at. Easier than his matchup against Fox which I found workable as well.

Out of all the spacie MUs, I would say it's the most doable. Especially if you take him to a smaller stage. The less room he has to camp you with, the better. Also, spaced Inhales and Hammers can be great punishes for when he tries to engage you in the air.

 

[MTL Kyle]

MTL Kyle Could you make an effort to talk about the thread instead of just trolling (or whatever you want to call it)? If not could you just leave? You've been distracting people from the thread as well as not contributing (positively).

Hugboooooooooooooooooooooooox.

Read my past posts and stop circlejerking in the Discord Chat, thxxx

. So yeah, they're the best players in the region, but that doesn't mean they're the most suitable to be coming up with tier lists.

Yeah, definitely the guy that has no experience in top level PM, not even when he is an PM exclusive player, is definitely suitable to tell people about the metagame and what's good and not.

So much entitlement, might as well change your SB tag to ONTARIO Kyle.

 

[_Chrome]

Idk about you guys, but Naussica's posts make a lot more sense to me than, well, you-know-who.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Hugboooooooooooooooooooooooox.
Yeah, definitely the guy that has no experience in top level PM, not even when he is an PM exclusive player, is definitely suitable to tell people about the metagame and what's good and not.

So much entitlement, might as well change your SB tag to ONTARIO Kyle.

Might want to take a few classes in English before you go calling someone out. It's hard to take someone seriously when they can't even display basic knowledge of sentence structure, let alone rhetoric. And just because I'm not a top level player doesn't mean I don't understand more about the metagame of PM than a Melee player who only plays it for fun/easy money. An example would be someone who understands how to optimize long-distance running vs. someone who has a lot more experience and/or athletic ability. Just because I may understand more about the sport in theory doesn't mean in a head-to-head race I'll come out on top. Understanding only takes you so far. Sure, this isn't the perfect example, but it's the first one I thought of and I think it gets the point across rather well. And I'm not sure what point "not even when he is an PM exclusive player" you're even trying to convey with this clause but I believe you're calling me a PM exclusive player? If that is the case, then I'll inform you I'm not, not that I'm very active in any other Smash game community at the moment.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Can we compare falcon to sonic in any way to find sonics proper spot in the tier list? I have never played a good sonic i think.
However
Disclaimer:
My main REQUIRES match up knowledge other wise ill steamroll over you regardless of skill and thus this can skew my view on characters and players heavily.

 

[Kneato]

Two tier lists posted in the Southern Ontario PM Facebook group, made by Hello and Rongushu respectively, two of the power ranked players.... lol)

This is exactly why we can't take any one person's list seriously. Literally no one has enough knowledge of every character to make a tier list that means anything. Every list will have maybe like 10-15 characters a player "thinks" they know the placement of just because they are over represented in that player's region, and the rest of the cast they will base on -at best- whatever recent major tournament placements they have seen and -at worst- where they "feel" the character fits.

The only way to make a tier list with any legitimacy is by comparing everyone's matchup spreads. That's the only way we can condense the 1681 different matchups in the game into succinct, somewhat objective data and get a real comparison of how characters size up to eachother.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

This is exactly why we can't take any one person's list seriously. Literally no one has enough knowledge of every character to make a tier list that means anything. Every list will have maybe like 10-15 characters a player "thinks" they know the placement of just because they are over represented in that player's region, and the rest of the cast they will base on -at best- whatever recent major tournament placements they have seen and -at worst- where they "feel" the character fits.

The only way to make a tier list with any legitimacy is by comparing everyone's matchup spreads. That's the only way we can condense the 1681 different matchups in the game into succinct, somewhat objective data and get a real comparison of how characters size up to eachother.

I hate ontarios tier list, it makes my eyes bleed.
On 1 list i saw olimar, pit, and puff on bottom and bowser in mid and dk near the top and im spit my coffee all over my phone from reading it.

But on topic, lets all get together and make a tier list based on MU spreads? I'm game for that idea.

 

[didds]

dash grab
run in dtilt
tada, yoshi can now threaten that zone in front of him
yes, if read these are punishable; that's how every character works.

EDIT: Also can the participants of this thread just make concerted efforts to add MTL Kyle to the ignore list? He has a history of being incapable of actual discussion, then blowing it off with "KEK! I WAS JUST PRETENDING TO BE ********! I WAS MERELY TROLLING!". This isn't going to change the more you try to convince him of anything. Detracts from actual discussion happening every time you respond to him.

I'm not saying he can't threaten the space, just that he doesn't have any particularly threatening pokes or quick crossups until he gets in on an opponent. They either lead to not much or are more risky than they are rewarding. It should be that way though, he has enough strengths in other places that he needs the weakness. It's been his weakness since melee and although not as bad, still exists in pm.

There's a reason amsa in melee is constantly chucking eggs in neutral, he needs to to get past any strong wall

Edit: yea that "read" comment was actually dumb lol, I should've phrased it more about how dash grab has a large punish window and how dtilt coverage is limited vertically without another reliable poke or zoning move to cover higher up.

I definitely don't think any of this is a problem though, like I said its not where his strength should be anyway, and like you pointed out, he's by no means helpless

Edit 2: now that I'm thinking more about it I realize yoshi isn't actually that bad off in the position i was describing, especially now that he doesn't have to fear getting stuck in shield