Tier List Speculation

[Life]

I kind of like the whole "posing questions" format, though. This thread's nearing a thousand pages and is kind of starved for variety.

Speaking of: for a laugh, go read some of the old pages. I'm looking at page 200 and it's early 3.0 tier lists and, well...

 

[Farquaad]

because he can fly across stage while throwing it out
and you can't CC it
his sling-whatever-whatchyamacallit's run turnaround jump moves faster than anyone can outrun

lol what is bubble what are all of his smashes

and he also has armor don't forget about that

I mean luigi has small amounts of disjoint on a bunch of his moves except for ftilt and jab because those are godlike
but he's not as mobile as squirtle

aside from the bolded section what other characters could this possibly describe hmmmm

oh I know spacies

also squirtle does have bubble which borders on spammable

I mean yeah I'd put squirtle at definitely harder to play than spacies but the skill ceiling is probably just as high if not higher

Just realized that over months of lurking this thread I've only ever seen non-Squirtle mains argue so angrily about him being potential top tier. And Dad, I guess. Most Squirts think he's mid. Just interesting.

I mean, if he's really Luigi with better disjoint on crack, shouldn't you prove it? When's the last time a Squirtman won a major (never) let alone a regional (never)?

And I do love Squirtle, don't get me wrong. I think he has a ton of room for optimizing. But so much of the stuff I use now that works feels like it's due to lack of matchup/DI knowledge...the amount of people who don't realize you can smash DI his up-B behind him is ridiculous, and he's actually mad easy to hit out of it from behind. I dunno. Just want to see one of these non-Squirts saying Squirtle is so good actually back it up.

PS, Dsmash is garbage. Changed to be "more like Bowser/Pikachu/ROB?" Then why is ROB's frame 5/Pikachu frame 7/Bowser frame 8 and Squirtle freaking frame 16? And its usage is questionable at best

 

[KinGly]

the amount of people who don't realize you can smash DI his up-B behind him is ridiculous, and he's actually mad easy to hit out of it from behind.

So much to be learned from just lurking in this thread. Gotta love the little practical things

 

[Manaconda]

I mean, it's completely natural to be much more aware of your own character's shortcomings and wonder why more people don't focus on and take advantage of those, just as it is to see other characters as some concoction of strengths. This being projected onto a fast, confusing, annoying character with armor in some cases (?) and other weird things shouldn't be surprising. Maybe he really is THAT good or maybe it's just hard to see where he's weak.

the amount of people who don't realize you can smash DI his up-B behind him is ridiculous, and he's actually mad easy to hit out of it from behind.

I don't have much of an opinion on the rest of Squirtle's kit (other than that he's fast, confusing, and annoying), but this isn't really a knock on his recovery. When you edgeguard him, you're challenging him from the front, not the back, and if you were to SDI behind him before getting launched (is that possible?), hitting him from behind would send him back on stage.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Invincible aerials work wonders. I would argue Squirtles airspeed, side b, and down b stall are more influential in squirtles recovery being good than up b.

 

[mimgrim]

Squirtle is just an annoying little ****** to fight against.

Das pretty much my whole opinion on Squirtle. :L

 

[DrinkingFood]

Just realized that over months of lurking this thread I've only ever seen non-Squirtle mains argue so angrily about him being potential top tier.

who said he's top tier lmao
It's not invalid to criticize a character's design or point out their strengths without caring where their viability lies

 

[PlateProp]

I mean, it's completely natural to be much more aware of your own character's shortcomings and wonder why more people don't focus on and take advantage of those, just as it is to see other characters as some concoction of strengths. This being projected onto a fast, confusing, annoying character with armor in some cases (?) and other weird things shouldn't be surprising. Maybe he really is THAT good or maybe it's just hard to see where he's weak.



I don't have much of an opinion on the rest of Squirtle's kit (other than that he's fast, confusing, and annoying), but this isn't really a knock on his recovery. When you edgeguard him, you're challenging him from the front, not the back, and if you were to SDI behind him before getting launched (is that possible?), hitting him from behind would send him back on stage.

You only challenge him from the formt if you're dumb enough to try and challenge him from the front

Just grabbing ledge and refreshing invincibility is a thing guys

 

[Manaconda]

I didn't literally mean challenging him head-on, I meant that you deal with him while he's facing you and not when he's facing the opposite direction. The comment I responded to talked about the fact that he's easy to hit from behind with a tone implying that to be some sort of great weakness.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Christ I am so not reading this thread when this wasted

Anyway any of you not named DF, Lunchables, Odds, Umbreon or SB are wrong

Especially Nausicaa, he on crack
Not the good kind either

Talia out

Edit: Infinity you're cool too

MARTROID1177 PLZ STOP ****ING SELF DESTRUCTING

PLZ

 

[DrinkingFood]

Christ I am so not reading this thread when this wasted

Anyway any of you not named DF, Lunchables, Odds, Umbreon or SB are wrong

Especially Nausicaa, he on crack
Not the good kind either

Talia out

Edit: Infinity you're cool too

MARTROID1177 PLZ STOP ****ING SELF DESTRUCTING

PLZ

there's def a bunch others worth listening to, they just don't post in here as often

 

[Ripple]

NO! TEXAS AND ODDS ARE INFALLIBLE

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

there's def a bunch others worth listening to, they just don't post in here as often

Thought it would be a bit on the nose to name myself tho

I am nothing if not humble

 

[Nausicaa]

A bunch of you basically started to nail it there.

Just to add to what was there.
1) Really plainly. - Lock-down in the form of hit-box coverage and ways of holding the game at a neutral.

Any kind of game-play or character that benefits greatly from maintaining a neutral game in a unbroken state, is going to do great. Things like interaction-control in neutral often involve having a way of breaking neutral in advantageous ways. Someone who can lock down a neutral and hold it, (NOT ignore neutral or break neutral or control neutral) simply make neutral an uncomfortable thing to work around and keep the game at a neutral for as long as they want (Sonic/Wario fit this very well in other extremes) is why things are hard.
Pikachu dominates this.
If you can do it better, or in a way that makes Pikachu NOT want to play this game, then you win.
It's like how Marth dominates interaction-control.
If you can play to it in a way that makes it possible for you to break neutral, it's scary, and the only thing Marth can do is camp more. Play less of the game he wants to play. Then you can have an advantage grow from that.
Hold neutral against Pika, and see if you can get an advantage to grow from that. In the end-game, that's the only chance anyone will have.

Example: Peach
She's not trying to break neutral, but her advantageous position IN neutral is essentially just a close-ish-proximity neutral-game that's exactly where you don't want her to be.
A Peach moving around you makes you want to move away or attempt breaking neutral and forces you to work around her. This why trades happen so easily if the attempt doesn't work, or platform camping is resorted to if breaking it isn't favorable.
A Peach is fought during a process of her maneuvering through attacks and zones on her way to you. Pika can't deal with this very well.
Falco/Mario/other characters that choke you down with hard hit-boxes are going to do the same in a more lock-down way.

+ The rest of what some of you all stated. So yay, moving on.

2) Basically everyone got it to some extent, but it's a little more specific than a general speed+range thing. To be very simple about it, it has a lot to do with that fly-by-aerial thing Infinity described more than most of the rest of it.

Simple form: The threat of Aerials that can convert into detrimental positions if Luigi trades with them.
Marth may have great interaction-control and force the need to break neutral because he'll just chip away at you with D-Tilts and Jabs and Marth stuff if you don't. A lot of characters hate it, and most of that is why Marth is considered to be troublesome for a lot of characters.
Luigi doesn't care about this. None of this actually matters to him.

With that, Marth can make a F-Air wall as something WITHIN his DD game and make life miserable for some characters. This is more of his interaction control that comes with his speed+range.
Again Luigi doesn't care AT ALL about this.

What is of significance is that at any point, while Luigi and Marth dance around, everything Luigi does to break neutral will out-match anything Marth does. Marth can NOT control interactions between these characters at all.
There's a reason Sheik will needle/F-Air camp on platforms, Falco will resort to feinted N-Airs/D-Airs in his laser game, and Fox has to play a N-Air/B-Air/U-Air heavy game INSTEAD OF dash-dance Grab or laser camping like he can when controlling other characters.

The threat comes with the way that if Luigi breaks neutral and is clipped by an aerial that can convert into something, then it can be a stock against him. Simple as that. It's not the punish game that matters in the sense that he gets clobbered harder than he clobbers others (otherwise we'd be discussing how Sheik can't handle spaceswords), but it's how there is a THREAT to Luigi at all times that prevents him from going beast-mode permanently.
Not range. Not speed.

Aerials and things that can trade with him favorably, specifically out of defensive positions like shields and counter approaches, or flying-by with a means of DIRECTLY engaging him to negate the threatening presence that he'll always out-match an opponent with.

The reason why Marth isn't as much of a threat as someone like, CF for example, is that CF can actually safely play aggressive with aerials that convert to stocks, even when trading. Against Marth, it's all on Luigi to mess up. Against Luigi, CF can actually decide how the game goes.

Suggestions for future counter-play and end-game.
subtitled- how to not get rocked the way the melee-gods all did when you play scrubs like me who actually know wtf is going on in weird match-ups when played in anti-meta ways with pivots and weird crap.

If you're playing like a defensive fortress and not trying to challenge or evade Pikachu, but just not fall for anything and not try to play a bait and punish game, but just let Pikachu sit in neutral, then you'll do well in the match-up. You can see this falter when a Fox tries to play aggressively or camp someone like Axe, and you'll see it work well when a Falco or Peach holds a strong counter-approach game almost exclusively in the match-up and doesn't do much else, forcing Pika to calm down with purpose. Pikachu can still deal with this (I'd link my old discussion with Anther about dealing with Mario/Falco/Marth/etc again but you can just search it if you like), but a completely stalling of the neutral game and NON-COMMITTING game-plan will be what holds Pikachu down. People seem to get beat too frequently by these 2 (and a few other) good Pika players due to trying to engage in micro-spacing and micro-interactions. If you let these last, Pika takes control and dictates the match, and that's why Pikas win today. When you start seeing people getting Pika to play this game while in a neutral dance without anyone ever getting hit, rather than scuffles and trades, that's when the meta-game will start to show how good this character is, and how he'll ACTUALLY be dealt with at a top level. There are glimpses, but the meta is very young.

If you're playing over-extending and over-evading game against Luigi, aiming for trades (contrary to popular belief it seems) and being very diverse in your aggression and evasion, then you'll do well against Luigi. You may have seen hints of this over/under-extending in the adapting counter-play that Prof's Snake eventually started applying against otek, or how it lacked in some matches where Dong got to freely Hail-Mary his stuff without a leash. I'm not sure when we'll see it again, but even in Melee it was the tentative camping and attempt at pace-controlling that Melee-god Marths had that has allowed my Luigi to play my game and beat them. With a switch in game-plan to the EXTREME opposite, this is why Darkrain has had his way with Ka Master in the past. Take note of that type of game with other characters and play to that, or you'll get hit with quirky Up-B's and Down-B's from a mile away and see more average non-BnB Luigi play make marks on the meta-game again. There are glimpses (Luigi can play to this and abuse over/under-extending too, but it's this establishment of constant counter-presence that Luigi players fail to see today and often lose to, you can watch any of them for this pretty clearly if you like) The convergence of everything that Luigi's do in terms of wide-spread game-play is further off than any other character in PM to-date.

Those are kind of big paragraphs...

tl;dr

Understand exactly why/how/what YOU ALREADY FEEL/KNOW/'GET' about match-ups, and this stuff starts to make a lot more sense.
The Meta-Game of Spaceswords is very different than disjoints and dash-dances.
The meta-game of forcing approaches and out-spacing people is very surface-level.
The meta-game of threats of conversion and establishment of presence is closer to it.
Keep going and see where it leads.

When you start to look at what is ACTUALLY is taking place, then it'll all start to be very clear.
Very rarely, if ever, is this stuff ever discussed in a way that makes it seem like people know what they're talking about around here.
So I find myself viewing everyone as if they simply don't understand what they already know.
Turns out this has been true every time I've gotten a hint of it.

Luigi doesn't lose to swords.
Pika doesn't lose to DDs.

Don't think these characters are good, or that I'm saying they're good.
Think about what these characters struggle with, what is REALLY going on.
That is all I ask.
It's very different than anyone around here (but a very select few) likely believe at the moment, and that's why the perspective of an individual can change so much, so quickly, without them being aware of the change.
Change your point of view...
From 'perceiving what you believe about the game now as opposed to then'
To 'perceiving what changed your belief from what it was then to what it is now'
Hint: It's not 'results' or 'new things you've seen'
It's rather a change in where your attention has been directed.
Those are simply catalysts for the latter. The change in attention can be a result of the former.
Ez Pz

Once you 'get' the Melee-Top-Tier and these Melee-To-PM people, then comes the fun.

Next characters.

I don't see any of this guy fraudulence detected.

Wario wasn't in Melee.
I think I might be missing a joke in here though.
lol


Edit: Highlighting.
Additions and edits woop.
Editedit: Was just playing a bunch of Melee so it's where I'm drifting with this post. It might be a bit off-topic when it comes to PM, but the idea is the same.
When your attention is going to these 'ideas' about what makes characters good, what gives them trouble, etc, pay attention to the fact that your attention is going there. You may notice something... interesting when it comes to why/how/when/what is taking place there, and you might start seeing things very differently.

I'm pretty sure 100% of people would be surprised how knee-jerk type of reactionary habits they have regarding the mental attachments to their own perceptions really are.
Just sayiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiin



Also, don't listen to me if you think I'm on some kind of something.
Likely, you'll interpret what I'm saying VERY off-base from what I'm meaning to express.
lol

My running theory is that doing thought exercises like this is a key part of getting good, especially when you're starved of the biggest factor where getting good is concerned (i.e. lots of practice against other good people). Sure, go ahead and do the "I'm bad, but" disclaimer--I do it all the time, it's an honesty thing and I think people are inclined to be more patient with you when you admit you aren't perfect--but don't devalue your input in so doing.

I think you're probably correct, actually.

Now if only I were as good as Nausicaa at posing questions that result in meaningful discussion.

More important than things resulting in meaningful discussion or being able to articulate it well...
Is that you can make sense of things for yourself on this layer.
The layer of 'how do I see what I see, why do I see things the way I do, what others ways can I see it' as an endless on-going eternally changing 'sense' you have with yourself.
Growing and stuff doesn't happen through words and discussions.
They're simply context to grow FROM.
You're in the mix of it as much as anyone with big-sentences and good-wording is.
We all have our parts, maybe in a month you'll be spamming gibberish like me, but you already have your own gibberish, and that will grow. One day, maybe for others to hear and read.
What's important, is that your own gibberish helps YOU.

A dog knows a lot of ****
It doesn't put it into words, it might not even have what we call 'knowledge' about what it knows.
But it knows a lot of important and interesting **** somehow.
Know what you know, and you're good to go.

Also, even if you're bad, you can still know your **** really good.
Don't worry about that so much. Input your **** if you want and see what happens. Maybe it'll help you be play as good as the **** you know that's good. lol

marth can fair luigi all the way across the stage and once luigi is offstage against marth he should be dead

Sounds like CF U-Airs
On everybody.
Such a yucky character.
Fun as heck somehow though.
bcuz Smash I guess.

To be honest, I'm surprised that this many of you actually indulged in this...trivia.

I'm here to have a meaningful discussion about different components of the game, not entertain a guessing game which would help explain how Nausicaa validates his opinions. This is the same as me saying something like, "Despite popular opinion, Mario actually beats Fox due to this one trick that no one has brought up in 915 pages. I know what it is. But I'm not going to tell you." If you're trying to prove a point, just say what you're trying to say.

If you want to talk about Luigi's match ups with Marth and Falcon, and why you think one is better/worse than the other, talk about it, don't write a riddle for everyone to solve.

Others kind of already addressed this, so I hope you get the point.
You missed it when I said it initially, but that was before this comment and others saying it again.
Do you understand what I'm talking about at least a bit? We started the discussion, but I'm not sure we're at all on the same page if you're still thinking about this kind of stuff as if it's priority.
On the other side of this, just an fyi, all of that stuff has been thoroughly discussed a LOOOOOOOT. You don't need to search far to find a Bamesy-rant.

 

[DrinkingFood]

NO! TEXAS AND ODDS ARE INFALLIBLE

but what about me

 

[Nausicaa]

Change your point of view...
From 'perceiving what you believe about the game now as opposed to then'
To 'perceiving what changed your belief from what it was then to what it is now'
Hint: It's not 'results' or 'new things you've seen'
It's rather a change in where your attention has been directed.
Those are simply catalysts for the latter. The change in attention can be a result of the former.
Ez Pz

I like this.
Wolf is bottom tier and OP at the same time.

 

[ModusPwnens]

I like this.
Wolf is bottom tier and OP at the same time.

You like a quote from yourself, then go on to flatly contradict yourself.

 

[Farquaad]

who said he's top tier lmao
It's not invalid to criticize a character's design or point out their strengths without caring where their viability lies

People always seem to talk about his kit like he's secret top tier, that's all, the whole discussion started when someone said "why isn't Squirtle top tier top kek"

When you edgeguard him, you're challenging him from the front, not the back, and if you were to SDI behind him before getting launched (is that possible?), hitting him from behind would send him back on stage.

When you SDI behind him you don't get launched at all, so yes, very possible, and it would not send him back on stage, it would force him to tech or stage spike unless you don't know what you're doing at all. Or you could just spike him period. Idk why you think using a move that would send him up and towards the stage would be a good idea when hitting from behind, if he's trying to sweet spot and you hit him from behind if he doesn't tech he's a dead turtle

Also, his Side B is decent, but bubble stall really isn't that great (lol), it's his wallcling and walljump that help most with his recovery mixups.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Nausicaa already said that's what he's trying to do.

@ Frost | Odds would you make charge armor start at straight medium or something else? I think straight medium would be kinda crazy, but I could see 3-5 frames of charge being alright on dsmash -and usmash, probably 4-6 on fsmash (transitioning that one to heavy armor instead of medium)

I'd have to check in PSA, but I don't think any of the smashes start charging at frame 1 - Bowser actually has to commit a bit even before he gets to the charge frames. Having a reliable method to viciously punish jump-ins is sorta mission-critical for characters with Bowser's archetype, and right now he just doesn't really have that beyond the upB.

I'd definitely like to experiment with increasing the utility of charge armor, and decreasing Bowser's dependency on his kinda degenerate upB, but whether I'd end up actually liking the change is anyone's guess.

NO! TEXAS AND ODDS ARE INFALLIBLE

It's more like I'm wrong so, so often that I'm bound to be right sometimes, like a broken clock basically

 

[Boiko]

Others kind of already addressed this, so I hope you get the point.
You missed it when I said it initially, but that was before this comment and others saying it again.
Do you understand what I'm talking about at least a bit? We started the discussion, but I'm not sure we're at all on the same page if you're still thinking about this kind of stuff as if it's priority.
On the other side of this, just an fyi, all of that stuff has been thoroughly discussed a LOOOOOOOT. You don't need to search far to find a Bamesy-rant.

It sounds like you're just wildly overcomplicating how a character behaves and sets the pace in the neutral game, and how a different character can handle that.

With that, Marth can make a F-Air wall as something WITHIN his DD game and make life miserable for some characters. This is more of his interaction control that comes with his speed+range.
Again Luigi doesn't care AT ALL about this.

What is of significance is that at any point, while Luigi and Marth dance around, everything Luigi does to break neutral will out-match anything Marth does. Marth can NOT control interactions between these characters at all.
There's a reason Sheik will needle/F-Air camp on platforms, Falco will resort to feinted N-Airs/D-Airs in his laser game, and Fox has to play a N-Air/B-Air/U-Air heavy game INSTEAD OF dash-dance Grab or laser camping like he can when controlling other characters.

The threat comes with the way that if Luigi breaks neutral and is clipped by an aerial that can convert into something, then it can be a stock against him. Simple as that. It's not the punish game that matters in the sense that he gets clobbered harder than he clobbers others (otherwise we'd be discussing how Sheik can't handle spaceswords), but it's how there is a THREAT to Luigi at all times that prevents him from going beast-mode permanently.
Not range. Not speed.

I disagree with most of this. I think that you're failing to consider just how strong Marth's ground game is, and how now matter what Luigi tries to do, getting in on Marth is always going to be difficult. Captain Falcon has very minimal disjoint, so any well placed anti air will disrupt his pressure. Marth can DD around Luigi forever, and no matter what, Luigi will have to approach Marth on the same plane, the ground. How is he going to circumvent d-tilts and grabs? How is he going to get down from the air when Marth gets him up there? How is he going to recover? Just because Falcon's effective zone is much bigger than Marth's it doesn't mean that he's technically a threat all the time.

Fox still plays a DD game against Luigi, he just doesn't grab because he doesn't get follow ups.

Sounds like CF U-Airs
On everybody.

DI down and away.

how to not get rocked the way the melee-gods all did when you play scrubs like me

And Coin Chaser beat M2K with Mario, but I'm certain you have no idea who that is.

Sorry, we're going to have to agree to disagree here.

 

[Mc.Rad]

*Crawls out of rock*
Marth's Grab should be shortened
*Crawls back into rock*

 

[Nausicaa]

You like a quote from yourself, then go on to flatly contradict yourself.

That was the joke, guess it wasn't very clear. lol

It sounds like you're just wildly overcomplicating how a character behaves and sets the pace in the neutral game, and how a different character can handle that.

I disagree with most of this. I think that you're failing to consider just how strong Marth's ground game is, and how now matter what Luigi tries to do, getting in on Marth is always going to be difficult. Captain Falcon has very minimal disjoint, so any well placed anti air will disrupt his pressure. Marth can DD around Luigi forever, and no matter what, Luigi will have to approach Marth on the same plane, the ground. How is he going to circumvent d-tilts and grabs? How is he going to get down from the air when Marth gets him up there? How is he going to recover? Just because Falcon's effective zone is much bigger than Marth's it doesn't mean that he's technically a threat all the time.

Fox still plays a DD game against Luigi, he just doesn't grab because he doesn't get follow ups.

And Coin Chaser beat M2K with Mario, but I'm certain you have no idea who that is.

Sorry, we're going to have to agree to disagree here.

If you think that's overcomplicating than I think the point was missed.
If anything, what I said was oversimplified.

That's good. Disagreeing is fine. I'm not exactly contradicting what you're pointing out there, I actually went into it in even more detail than that. We're on the same page with it, I just see different sides of it. (CF can DD around Luigi forever, and no matter what, Luigi will have to approach on the ground. He can maneuver and trade and win there, how is he going to going to get down from the there and recover and etc)
The same words you're saying can describe very accurately why CF will always have more trouble with Marth in both Melee and PM, and why he historically has at top levels.
Just pointing things out, not disagreeing. What you believe is your call, all we can do is nudge each other to look differently.

You miiiight wanna watch some good Fox vs Luigi matches, or actually play that match-up a bit. There is minimal DDing when it comes to any kind of neutral game or neutral breaking. A visual might make sense of that, and it's the same for CF/Marth. Small quick engagements of over extending. Watch for those, they're the difference makers and quite easily seen if you know what to look for.

If Coin Chaser did in Melee, that's awesome and would love to see it. If PM, then basically have no interest. Cool though, ty.

 

[Boiko]

If Coin Chaser did in Melee, that's awesome and would love to see it. If PM, then basically have no interest. Cool though, ty.

Yes, melee. Not recently. Probably in the same time period that you're referencing, maybe earlier.

 

[Nausicaa]

Ah, indeed. Cool.


Just to be simple about something, because I think we're still on different pages.

The entire point of your last post seemed to be about undervaluing an aspect of the match-up.
Meanwhile, the post you addressed was both describing a lot about that aspect (and others, as essentially an 'evaluation' of these things) and actually went further into it than you described, but I also went far enough to attempt pointing certain things out as clearly as I could, including why it's so very easy to overvalue that aspect and how that's only a surface-level result of something much simpler.
This seems like it just skipped over you, because all your post is, is a repetition almost word for word about the beginning of what I was talking about, then stopped short.

Not sure if that's what happened, but from what it looks like to me, that's what I'm seeing.
Doesn't really matter, just saying this as an fyi because I'm under the impression that you'd gain something from tying I guess a round-2 at reading what was said to try comprehend this whole thing than simply stick to the stuff you obviously get, and leave it at that.

It won't necessarily change your mind on things, but at least with a bit effort to understand something like this might make you better at describing things from your end in other topics, or at least make conversations like this be full discussions instead of repeating things I'm saying in the context you're seeing.
I get what context you're seeing it in, that's why I addressed what you're talking about exactly in the way I did. If that makes sense. lol

That's what everyone else does about all sorts of different things, and it's why meta-games take about 100% longer than they should on mass-levels. Taking opportunities to break these cycles is pretty juicy, and I'm going to take a wild guess by what you've just picked out of my long posts, that this is a perfect one.
It'll help with your Nessiness if it is. This isn't just about Marth/Luigi stuff.

 

[NWRL]

Christ I am so not reading this thread when this wasted

Anyway any of you not named DF, Lunchables, Odds, Umbreon or SB are wrong

Especially Nausicaa, he on crack
Not the good kind either

Talia out

Edit: Infinity you're cool too

MARTROID1177 PLZ STOP ****ING SELF DESTRUCTING

PLZ

I think Nausicaa has a point about approaching character viability by explaining why they aren't good instead of why they are good.

When you have to explain what makes a character bad, the less things you have to point out, the better off the character is.

Whereas I can sit here and spin Bowsers strengths to make it seem like he's some sort of immovable object that can never be punished because of armor, but we all know that he's on the lower end of the spectrum

 

[Nausicaa]

I think Nausicaa has a point about approaching character viability by explaining why they aren't good instead of why they are good.

When you have to explain what makes a character bad, the less things you have to point out, the better off the character is.

Whereas I can sit here and spin Bowsers strengths to make it seem like he's some sort of immovable object that can never be punished because of armor, but we all know that he's on the lower end of the spectrum

More than that, I just really want to find the root of it all.
Like, behind all the layers and down into the nitty gritty and clearing away the debris and letting the dust settle and polishing it off.
When doing that, it's amazing what can be found.
Usually (by that I mean all the time), what's actually going on, what's actually making the difference, is not at all what people tend to think. Even the smart people, who study hard and think about the stuff.
As Thor says at the end of Avengers 2
"Besides Ironman, there's nothing that can't be explained."
That doesn't mean explained as in put into words to read.
It simply means to understand what we already know.
TO ACTUALLY understand what it is people tend to think they understand.
Mind-stuff > all. Makes everything clear.
Something these discussion forums lack quite a bit of.

*Words
*internet
*interpretations
Stuff is messy. I like digging.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

More than that, I just really want to find the root of it all.
Like, behind all the layers and down into the nitty gritty and clearing away the debris and letting the dust settle and polishing it off.
When doing that, it's amazing what can be found.
Usually (by that I mean all the time), what's actually going on, what's actually making the difference, is not at all what people tend to think. Even the smart people, who study hard and think about the stuff.
As Thor says at the end of Avengers 2
"Besides Ironman, there's nothing that can't be explained."
That doesn't mean explained as in put into words to read.
It simply means to understand what we already know.
TO ACTUALLY understand what it is people tend to think they understand.
Mind-stuff > all. Makes everything clear.
Something these discussion forums lack quite a bit of.

*Words
*internet
*interpretations
Stuff is messy. I like digging.

you would be the apple of my eye if you took some time to consider Link as he is now and gave me some light impressions. I don't think he's quite as bad as people say he is (low tier usually) but I don't think he can really compete without consistently surprising and outsmarting an opponent in that professor pro sort of "I know my character's tools so much better than you and can achieve victory just by manipulating the fact that you're playing against me as if i used a worse character than yours" sort of way.

 

[Deleted member]

Especially Nausicaa, he on crack
Not the good kind either

god i thought i was alone

 

[Nausicaa]

god i thought i was alone

Someone who listens to me would probably feel more alone. lol

you would be the apple of my eye if you took some time to consider Link as he is now and gave me some light impressions. I don't think he's quite as bad as people say he is (low tier usually) but I don't think he can really compete without consistently surprising and outsmarting an opponent in that professor pro sort of "I know my character's tools so much better than you and can achieve victory just by manipulating the fact that you're playing against me as if i used a worse character than yours" sort of way.

The first time I ever played someone in Melee that could beat me, we did Link vs Falco on FD for 10 hours straight.
The main comment of the event, was how it seemed I always "rolled the right way"
That was when I was a newb of the newest order.
To this day, I make Rolling look OP. Rolling is even seen as decent by a lot of people in the last few years too.

You can make Link look/seem OP. If you can work with that, and always make your game lean that way, making things seem OP as much as you can, then keep going. You'll find the limits you're talking about.
Pretend he's OP. When he seems really strong, pay real close attention to what's going on. I'm sure you know what that vague statement means.
You'll find the nooks and crannies about his strengths and weaknesses pretty quickly that way. It has nothing to do with match-ups of characters or player styles, that's the surface of something deeper.
You described it already, this is just another way of saying the same thing.
Is that what you're looking to hear about it, or are you wanting to hear something more specific about something else Link-related?

 

[PlateProp]

I'd have to check in PSA, but I don't think any of the smashes start charging at frame 1 - Bowser actually has to commit a bit even before he gets to the charge frames. Having a reliable method to viciously punish jump-ins is sorta mission-critical for characters with Bowser's archetype, and right now he just doesn't really have that beyond the upB.

I'd definitely like to experiment with increasing the utility of charge armor, and decreasing Bowser's dependency on his kinda degenerate upB, but whether I'd end up actually liking the change is anyone's guess.


It's more like I'm wrong so, so often that I'm bound to be right sometimes, like a broken clock basically

I'm pretty sure charge armor isint actually "charge armor" (armor increasing on a frame by frame basis) but rather once x frame is reached = next tier of armor

Having legit armor charge probably isint possible without a ton of hex stuff because if you just did it in psa it would blow the file size up and it wouldnt work in game

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

guys tell me how ness works

there's a good ness in my region but in his own words "I have no idea how neutral works I just breverse side b and hope it hits you" and he beats a ton of people with his punish game alone

am I right in thinking that one of ness's best tools in the neutral is an empty hop just outside of your opponent's range? with that empty hop you can bait moves, then approach some aerial in to punish, throw some pk fire to make them annoyed/control their space more, magnet in for ness things, or retreat (and throw a djc fair in to cover himself with disjointed hitboxes while he does so)

like although ness has a mediocre dash dance, he can still kinda be in that schrodinger neutral state where he is neither attacking or retreating or staying still but the possibility for all of those is there all at once

idk maybe I'm wrong

also what are ness's earliest kill moves? what is "kill percent" for ness?

@ Boiko @The_NZA @Other people who play ness and think he's bad

edit: I'm probably getting the names of the tech wrong but still (if I am, try not to be an asshole and tell me what's actually up)

 

[DrinkingFood]

guys tell me how ness works

there's a good ness in my region but in his own words "I have no idea how neutral works I just breverse side b and hope it hits you" and he beats a ton of people with his punish game alone

am I right in thinking that one of ness's best tools in the neutral is an empty hop just outside of your opponent's range? with that empty hop you can bait moves, then approach some aerial in to punish, throw some pk fire to make them annoyed/control their space more, magnet in for ness things, or retreat (and throw a djc fair in to cover himself with disjointed hitboxes while he does so)

like although ness has a mediocre dash dance, he can still kinda be in that schrodinger neutral state where he is neither attacking or retreating or staying still but the possibility for all of those is there all at once

idk maybe I'm wrong

also what are ness's earliest kill moves? what is "kill percent" for ness?

@ Boiko @The_NZA @Other people who play ness and think he's bad

edit: I'm probably getting the names of the tech wrong but still (if I am, try not to be an ******* and tell me what's actually up)

Something I do that I find works well against characters that have a lot of mobility in the air (particularly if they have like a range of zones where they can land while putting out a hitbox, which applies to move characters with good aerial mobility options) is to try to run under and past them a lot when you see them go into the air. Particularly if they full hop, or run/jump off platforms. Once there, you mix up DD spacings, and then choose a side of them and then shield facing them. Eventually you have conditioned them to respect the possibility of being crossed up while they are airborne, and they will have to choose whether to cover their backside or their front side with a hitbox, which gives you a mix-up that forces them to choose. If they guess wrong you can punish, if they guess right you shield their move and either get a punish or just reset to neutral with a WD OoS, then repeat the process. Combine this with a more direct approach of challenging them in the air, which is an option that opens up if they decide they need to actually go in with their DJCs/drifting rather than jumping back and waiting for your whiff. Granted not all characters can challenge the likes of Wario or Jiggs or the DJC characters in the air. Bowser I think is one of the worst at this lol, he has so little jump speed that in order to get close to them in the air you have to be close to them on the ground as you jump, which gives them a lot of heads up and an easy position to cover with a hitbox. Regardless, you can condition them to try to go in by passively taking stage space when you identify that they are using their aerial positioning to bait out moves; therefore you do no move, they don't respond, and they lose stage space until cornered.
Generally speaking, you probably need to just shield more, and cross him up more; particularly when he's airborne. Also note that if this turns out to be an impossible task, they are probably keeping a spacing that won't allow you to cross them up, which means either a) You're playing a really slow character or b) they are keeping a far spacing from you which will let you just leech stage space from them slowly.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Something I do that I find works well against characters that have a lot of mobility in the air (particularly if they have like a range of zones where they can land while putting out a hitbox, which applies to move characters with good aerial mobility options) is to try to run under and past them a lot when you see them go into the air. Particularly if they full hop, or run/jump off platforms. Once there, you mix up DD spacings, and then choose a side of them and then shield facing them. Eventually you have conditioned them to respect the possibility of being crossed up while they are airborne, and they will have to choose whether to cover their backside or their front side with a hitbox, which gives you a mix-up that forces them to choose. If they guess wrong you can punish, if they guess right you shield their move and either get a punish or just reset to neutral with a WD OoS, then repeat the process. Combine this with a more direct approach of challenging them in the air, which is an option that opens up if they decide they need to actually go in with their DJCs/drifting rather than jumping back and waiting for your whiff. Granted not all characters can challenge the likes of Wario or Jiggs or the DJC characters in the air. Bowser I think is one of the worst at this lol, he has so little jump speed that in order to get close to them in the air you have to be close to them on the ground as you jump, which gives them a lot of heads up and an easy position to cover with a hitbox. Regardless, you can condition them to try to go in by passively taking stage space when you identify that they are using their aerial positioning to bait out moves; therefore you do no move, they don't respond, and they lose stage space until cornered.
Generally speaking, you probably need to just shield more, and cross him up more; particularly when he's airborne. Also note that if this turns out to be an impossible task, they are probably keeping a spacing that won't allow you to cross them up, which means either a) You're playing a really slow character or b) they are keeping a far spacing from you which will let you just leech stage space from them slowly.

thanks df that's helpful
I realized I do some of that already, but like most things I do in smash, I started to do it unconsciously rather than analyze it and realize that it was something that worked that I should do. I go relatively even with his ness, altho he probably beats me more often than not, but consciously paying attention for ways in which I can cross under and make him play a guessing game in the air will help

however, my anecdote about said ness player was more of a little example

what I'm really wondering is how does ness work as a character, what are his goals and gameplan
I've been trying to figure this out for a few days now ever since people started complaining that because he didn't have a dashdance, a reliable upward kill move, or a functioning upsmash he was bad
and I wondered whether or not he actually needed those

so I guess my question is what are ness' tools in the neutral? I put forth a hypothesis about a small facet of a tool that he has, but I'm trying to figure out more of his gameplan
it seems like ness is almost like a little moving fortress that then goes into pressure lockdown once the opponent gets bad positioning
ness seems like he tries to throw pk fire from ambiguous distances or wall with fair (or retreat/cross over an approaching opponent with magnet or some other tool... that seems like a thing ness does, right?) and then as soon as he tags someone with a pk fire or catches them with a fair or scares them into shield with a magnet he can apply shield pressure and kind of force them into a disadvantageous position on stage (or catch them into a combo). once they're near ledge the goal of his fortress kinda becomes a lockdown keeping them there and making them make a mistake where he gets them into a combo leading either to an edgeguard situation or a midstage combo into bair (aka ness knee)

like what does ness try to do throughout the game and is that plan in itself not a good enough plan to win? or do the tools he has not function well enough to complete that plan?

what does ness try to do and why do people think he's bad?

 

[redbeanjelly]

thanks df that's helpful
I realized I do some of that already, but like most things I do in smash, I started to do it unconsciously rather than analyze it and realize that it was something that worked that I should do. I go relatively even with his ness, altho he probably beats me more often than not, but consciously paying attention for ways in which I can cross under and make him play a guessing game in the air will help

however, my anecdote about said ness player was more of a little example

what I'm really wondering is how does ness work as a character, what are his goals and gameplan
I've been trying to figure this out for a few days now ever since people started complaining that because he didn't have a dashdance, a reliable upward kill move, or a functioning upsmash he was bad
and I wondered whether or not he actually needed those

so I guess my question is what are ness' tools in the neutral? I put forth a hypothesis about a small facet of a tool that he has, but I'm trying to figure out more of his gameplan
it seems like ness is almost like a little moving fortress that then goes into pressure lockdown once the opponent gets bad positioning
ness seems like he tries to throw pk fire from ambiguous distances or wall with fair (or retreat/cross over an approaching opponent with magnet or some other tool... that seems like a thing ness does, right?) and then as soon as he tags someone with a pk fire or catches them with a fair or scares them into shield with a magnet he can apply shield pressure and kind of force them into a disadvantageous position on stage (or catch them into a combo). once they're near ledge the goal of his fortress kinda becomes a lockdown keeping them there and making them make a mistake where he gets them into a combo leading either to an edgeguard situation or a midstage combo into bair (aka ness knee)

like what does ness try to do throughout the game and is that plan in itself not a good enough plan to win? or do the tools he has not function well enough to complete that plan?

what does ness try to do and why do people think he's bad?

I'll do my best and keep it short. Other more qualified people will probably chime or correct me.

For me as a Ness player, I might describe him as a grab punish-oriented character whose aerials and PK Fire threaten very particular zones in neutral. His primary goal is to maintain his defensive posture and try to utilize the double jump cancel mechanic to close in and punish the opponent for entering those zones. By baiting and punishing, he can capitalize on a PK Fire or DJC Fair and position himself in such a way to get that grab. At that point, his great downthrow grants followups on most of the cast.

He has ways to pressure shields, but nothing airtight like a spacie. The pressure is finite, and very dependent on his positioning on the opponent's shield. All of the pressure he can produce has solutions to circumvent it.

Kill moves include backair, made very fast by DJC, and backthrow. Upair is his best vertical finisher, nair can kill, downair is a meteor. Pretty sure that covers the most threatening finishers.

So the reason everyone is ******** is that, although the aforementioned stuff sounds good, all of it has counterplay that works very consistently, no matter what character you play. His kill moves are super DI 'able, and without a reliable vertical finisher, are dependent on stage positioning. Backair is very SDI susceptible, and the angle on backthrow allows you to live a lot longer than you might suspect. Upair really only kills floaties at reasonable percentages. Downair can be meteor cancelled.

Regarding neutral, his DJC mixups from the air can all be beat by crouch canceling, SDI, or simply patient shielding. PK Fire is a laggy projectile that can be snuffed out and neutralized by running shield, or SDI, or buffered roll away, so it's very hard to get a true conversion off of it a lot of the time, or even to throw it out safely. He has little range on most of his normals, average ground speed, average dash dance and wavedash, and short grab range.

Defensively, he has one of the most combo-susceptible weight/fall speed combinations in the game. His slow doublejump makes it difficult to jump out of juggles. He has slow tech rolls, horrible options out of shield, and one of the most exploitable recoveries in the game.

His combos on fastfallers are very potent, but progressively deteriorate as you move up the fall speed spectrum. Floaty characters can get out of most of his kill setups. Heavy floaties like ROB and Samus who have vertical combo resistance and horizontal kill resistance are an absolute nightmare for him.

He struggles with camping in all its iterations. Projectile, dash dance, zoning with disjoint, air.

Hope this gives you some idea. I've been listening to the Ness mains on this thread for a while too.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

I dunno guys. I feel like if you can't describe a character in a sentence or less, there's some fundamental character flaws going on.
For example, Marth can be described as "Spacing and Pokes, the character".

 

[steelguttey]

I dunno guys. I feel like if you can't describe a character in a sentence or less, there's some fundamental character flaws going on.
For example, Marth can be described as "Spacing and Pokes, the character".

this is an interesting idea i'd like to be talked about more cus like

why does that mean anything

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

this is an interesting idea i'd like to be talked about more cus like

why does that mean anything

I have the belief that when you pick up a character, after playing around with them for a while you should have some idea of their game plan that's inherently shown in their kit.

With Ness, to a total stranger, it's like what do you do with this kid?

 

[Psi Sig]

I have the belief that when you pick up a character, after playing around with them for a while you should have some idea of their game plan that's inherently shown in their kit.

With Ness, to a total stranger, it's like what do you do with this kid?

"Bait and Punish, the character"

 

[steelguttey]

"Bait and Punish, the character"

which is also olimar, bowser, ganon, zelda, link, toon link, any defensive character, arthur, morrigan, dr doom, gouken, hugo, hakan, squigly, peacock, sagat, zangief, dormammu, i cant name more defensive characters in fighting games im tired but you get the point

 

[Saproling]

"Bait and Punish, the character"

But that's ivy.