Tier List Speculation

[didds]

If pikachu is weak to dash dancing who isn't?

 

[Draco_The]

@ Frost | Odds I'm surprised you didn't suggest something like holding B at the start of side B to make Bowser stop the move before it goes active while having some armor and releasing B to continue the move.

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ Draco_The I think it would actually be really cool to let Bowser gain armor on the side b by charging it a bit, but I think it'll be a hard enough battle to get the charge armor on Bowser's smashes upgraded from "useless" to "medium".

Side b is already a great multitool. Adding complexity back in which was cut for good reasons to begin with doesn't seem like a great plan imo.

 

[Boiko]

If pikachu is weak to dash dancing who isn't?

Characters with projectiles that can control space, not thunder jolt. Characters with disjoint and good poking and zoning tools.

If someone is dash dancing, their goal is to typically control as much space as possible. So that when you commit to something, anywhere, they're in a position to punish it. The counter to dash dancing is to either halt their movement, like with a Falco laser. Or to push them back to the ledge and assume stage control. That way you mitigate their effective zone. Now you know where to shoot your approaches because there is no where else for them to go. It's all a matter of controlling space. If you're Marth and Fox is DDing, you're threatening him from a significant distance with your range. The same goes if your Falcon and you can threaten with speed. The fewer places that he has to dash out of danger, the better.

QAC is fast, yes, and it leads to a multitude of options, which is great. Its best strength against DDing is probably the fact that it can very quickly close the gap between you and your opponent. Maybe it is super good against DDing, I've yet to see it used that way. @mimgrim

 

[Draco_The]

@ Draco_The I think it would actually be really cool to let Bowser gain armor on the side b by charging it a bit, but I think it'll be a hard enough battle to get the charge armor on Bowser's smashes upgraded from "useless" to "medium".

Side b is already a great multitool. Adding complexity back in which was cut for good reasons to begin with doesn't seem like a great plan imo.

The main problem I have with Bowser's side B is how it has a grab hitbox and a normal hitbox at the same time. No one has a problem with it because in order to use it Bowser needs to get in, so it's a nice reward for all the work, but once Bowser gets buffs in areas other than punishes I think it will be a major problem.

Personally I'd like to see Bowser playing more like a proper grappler, with things that allowed him to move forward while attacking, similar to Zangief's Green Hand or Hugo's Giant Palm Bomber, and just more about mindgames once he gets in.

 

[didds]

It's a good occasional counter to dd but like all burst options, it's punished hard when predictable.

I just don't know how you can mention falcon as someone who can threaten space with speed and exclude pika.

Sometimes it's the combination of tools that shine rather than single, obvious choices. Jolt alone is obviously not a solid counter. Same with overshooting aerials or simply running through the "bait space" and poking with dtilt or trying to catch them with down smash. But when all of these tools are used in conjunction based on how your opponent is using his dash dance, then he becomes a character with a very strong anti dd game. Especially when he also has a strong dd game that an opponent has to respect

 

[Boiko]

It's a good occasional counter to dd but like all burst options, it's punished hard when predictable.

I just don't know how you can mention falcon as someone who can threaten space with speed and exclude pika.

Sometimes it's the combination of tools that shine rather than single, obvious choices. Jolt alone is obviously not a solid counter. Same with overshooting aerials or simply running through the "bait space" and poking with dtilt or trying to catch them with down smash. But when all of these tools are used in conjunction based on how your opponent is using his dash dance, then he becomes a character with a very strong anti dd game. Especially when he also has a strong dd game that an opponent has to respect

Pika has notably lower maximum air speed, dash speed, and range than Falcon. All of the options that you listed are pretty easy to read in advance, IMO. They're counters, yes, but I don't think that they're "very strong" even in conjunction with one another.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

My highly speculative Tier List.
*Individuals in groups are not necessarily in order

S



A+



A



B




C

Spoiler

AMA

 

[InfinityCollision]

Pika is fast in the everything. Fast on the ground, fast in the air, 20 frame burst movement tool with hitboxes that makes him go even faster, fast frame data with a variety of moves to cover different options. How does DDing hard check Pika when you can barely keep up with him? He's all over the stage, being wherever he wants to be, and getting out again the moment he doesn't want to be there.

QAC is good in small quantities. Not well integrated into game-plans yet, nor particularly well controlled. Zipping around with just QAC is hilarious. Not practical, but 20 frames a pop (including one frame in DJ) if you're timing it well can certainly get you places in a hurry and he's got decent options coming out of it.

It's kind of like some ZSS things. One big reason she's still a decent character despite the widespread dysfunctionality in her kit is that you simply cannot contain her. Difference is, Pika's kit is pretty good at doing what it needs to.

 

[didds]

Pika has notably lower maximum air speed, dash speed, and range than Falcon. All of the options that you listed are pretty easy to read in advance, IMO. They're counters, yes, but I don't think that they're "very strong" even in conjunction with one another.

if they're that easy to read, I question the skill level of the pikas most people are exposed to. There is no way to read dtilt/nair/fair mix ups and if you are reading them, then either the pika is predictable or he isn't in the proper position to be throwing those moves out in the first place.

It seems like another case of he seems weak in a vacuum, but the counters to his tools are a lot easier said than done. Yea spacie utilt literally beats every approach pikachu has, but it's never as simple as that when we're actually playing.

Man this game is dynamic and complicated sometimes.

 

[Tomaster]

My highly speculative Tier List.
*Individuals in groups are not necessarily in order

S



A+



A



B




C

Spoiler

AMA

Snake?

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Snake?

Snake's pretty average for the most part imo. If you have some extensive practice and knowledge of his moveset and put in the work (this goes for the rest of B) you can go pretty far.

 

[Boiko]

I'd like to preface this by saying that I think that a good dash dance is an extremely powerful tool. A lot of characters have a hard time dealing with a character with a good dash dance and a good player using it well.

I think that you're undervaluing how hard of a commitment an overshot aerial is. You can be all over the stage, but if your opponent is controlling a relevant part of it, you're only option is to put yourself in that threat zone.

It's my understanding that down tilt is only safe if it's spaced. But regardless of that, Pikachu still needs to infiltrate a threat zone with little to no disjoint, and then commit to a poke.

I believe that Pikachu's maximum air speed is pretty low. I think that it's only high during a running jump, but I would have to double check.

Regardless of all of this, I actually think that Pikachu is a highly underrated character.

 

[Tomaster]

I know I'll regret this, but here's my current view on the cast/
I don't know every character to its fullest so some of them may be off.
only S is ordered.

Tear it down folks...

 

[didds]

I'd like to preface this by saying that I think that a good dash dance is an extremely powerful tool. A lot of characters have a hard time dealing with a character with a good dash dance and a good player using it well.

I think that you're undervaluing how hard of a commitment an overshot aerial is. You can be all over the stage, but if your opponent is controlling a relevant part of it, you're only option is to put yourself in that threat zone.

It's my understanding that down tilt is only safe if it's spaced. But regardless of that, Pikachu still needs to infiltrate a threat zone with little to no disjoint, and then commit to a poke.

I believe that Pikachu's maximum air speed is pretty low. I think that it's only high during a running jump, but I would have to double check.

Regardless of all of this, I actually think that Pikachu is a highly underrated character.

Air speed is low but he keeps a lot of his momentum from his run so yea, you're right. Thankfully he gets to keep this momentum as far as footsies and neutral go since he always has that run option. The low air speed is more of why he can be punished hard once he is being combo'd.

As far as commitment on the aerials, it's not that I underestimate how big of a commitment it is, rather I understand that a commitment doesn't necessarily make for a bad neutral tool. some characters need to commit to options at times, and it is a disadvantage, but I thinks it's also important to look at the potential space that can be covered and the speed at which a character can do it, which are two things pika definitely has.

Dtilt has to be spaced to be frame perfect safe, but people still get caught by double dtilt.

He may not be the best at countering dd, but I think he's much better equipped than a lot of the cast. Exceptions being faster character and character with strong, spamable projectiles.

I think we all agree that pika ain't bad I just like to get lots of perspectives on characters and see why people perceive certain characters and their potential in the way they do

 

[Boiko]

All makes sense, and all fair points. This kind of discussion eventually boils down to the whole answer for everything debate, which I think that we're getting close to.

Regarding this:

I think we all agree that pika ain't bad I just like to get lots of perspectives on characters and see why people perceive certain characters and their potential in the way they do

I really think that QAC is super untapped right now. The most interesting way that I saw it used was by Capitulize against Shane at Blacklisted. He was juggling with uairs and using QAC to quickly get back to the stage rather than SHFFLing. It was really cool to watch.

 

[Rizner]

I was going to post a collection of dialogues from various places, and try to explain a certain thing about why I've seen the meta-game from a very different light. That idea compiled this (for now), so here is it.


Basically this




My reply




I'm just gonna rant in any direction and try highlighting a character so people know when I start talking about them.

I whipped together a quick Tier-List for 3.6b 2 days before 3.6 dropped.
It was rough, but gave me a good idea of what I was looking at differently, so I dissected it.

I'll start from the Melee-core characters since they're kind of a bench-mark to everyone in SOME way and seem to be brought up a lot in discussion when I list things. Whether as a basis for match-up understanding, or gate-keepers to being a good character in PM.

This is what my quickly thrown together 3.6b list looked like with everything removed except Melee-ish characters.









At a glance, someone may notice that I don't think very highly of the Melee-top-tier in PM. I never really have, and that includes the favorite Designated S-Tier Fox.

I've ranted about how each of them is 'good' before, but this can be looked at in multiple ways.
From Melee-to-PM, or PM-exclusively.

Using the batch of characters around Fox in that list (the 'high/mid' Tier of Melee) as an easy example to start...

My best guess is that people think characters like Pikachu, Mario, Samus, Luigi, Toon Link, etc, are a LOT worse in Melee than they really are. All of these characters are clearly 2 things.
BOTH things.

1) Weaker than the top-end Melee characters
-AND-
2) Can keep up with them in a lot of ways.

BOTH of these are very observable and easy to see with just a bit of contemplation/exploration. It seems like the latter was lost, and that they're considered ONLY as weak-melee-characters when they're coming into PM, as if they couldn't do much of anything before.

A simple thing that I'm sure everyone has noticed is how characters like Pikachu are considered basically bottom-tier or lower on tier-lists throughout every PM incarnation. Even today.

-Talking about Melee-to-PM and going into PM-exclusive a bit here...
We've seen Pika have great showings in recent years in Melee, whether it's top-placings at major tournaments, or beating top-players in what are considered nearly not-winnable match-ups.
So, if taking a look at what COULD make Pika a solid contender, what would it be?

He has solid moves that were lacking in his kit (B-Air), more damage across a lot of key moves (Jolt/U-Air), simple things like a Crawl, less lag on recovering along with a new diverse tool (QAC), the ability to RETREAT out of IASA frames (D-Tilt), RAR/wave-bounce/etc stuff that compliments him more than most (U-Air/new B-Air with RAR, Down/Neutral-B wave-bouncing, great ground-air-ground transition game)

What more does this character need to be ON PAR with the Melee top-end?
Let alone BETTER than the Melee top-tier?
Stubby arms?
Improve his key moves there then (Grab, F-Air, D-Air).
Throw him in a game where more universal stock-taking options are beneficial from gimps to vertical kills in a game with diversity?
All of this is done.
What now?
What can this character POSSIBLY need to be an equal with the top-end Melee characters?

I've yet to understand it, and simply don't see it, and I've been curious to know what people think has to be done to Pikachu to MAKE him one of the best characters in the game.
This has never gotten an answer.
Especially when near the end of 3.02, he was one of the few actually considered to likely go even with the Designated S-Tier Fox AND the Beast of 3.02 Mewtwo. Both of them in the same game, and still be bad in that game.

I don't understand how someone can think a character could be on the weak end of a game and STILL think THAT is possible, yet that's what has happened in every PM patch to-date. Ganon can't even do anything against Mewtwo, yet Pika did better than MOST in that match-up, and isn't better than almost anyone?

It's always been directed at me, in the sense I've been told to explain why characters like Pikachu are good, when it really seems like everyone else needs to explain why they're NOT that good. Getting an explanation as to why Pikachu is NOT one of the better characters, as an example of the MANY characters I've been asked to point out strengths in, is something that has never even come close to happening.
"He can be punished hard" I guess is the closest that has ever come next to something like "stubby arms"
As if Fox/Mewtwo/Ganonlol have an easy time catching him in the first place, and as if CF/Lucas/Marth getting punished hard makes them bottom-tier on every list alongside Pikachu too *they-never-are-though.

How about Samus? She's solid, isn't she? What's her problem? Too slow to be good?
Melee-to-PM, how about giving her a Roll, a Crawl, faster and bigger and better hit-boxes on key moves and making more of her moves useful in all areas of her game.
If she was in Melee with these buffs, would she be on-par with Melee-tops at last, or still weak?

Her Z-Air was new, and it was the best move in 3.02 that was never talked about nearly enough. It's still there in a lesser form.
What do these characters need to be contenders for top spots?

Samus got some attention in 3.02 it appears, and that stayed a bit into 3.5/3.6, so that's good.

TL is in the same boat. Got some attention and it stuck. Yet this seemed so obvious from day-1. As mentioned in the quote above-

-he's basically a really solid character that plays like a bag of counter-play options inside a cage of stock-taking conversions, and somehow you need to get whatever is in the bag while it's taped to the back of a wild boar.

YL was functioning mildly with NO GRAB, that alone would help him huge. In 2.1 he had a Galaxy-Grab (grabs you from space) and it lead to some of the most busted easy-mode stock-ending strings possible. That behind the 1 game-plan that YL somehow made work, buffed to core-game (Jiggs-B-Air centralized) levels, and he's pretty obviously strong. The discussion I guess leads to "is he better than the Melee-top-tier" and as far as I'm concerned, more characters in the game fear TL than any of THEM.

Some characters can't even get Samus off the ground.
Some characters can't even get to TL passed the mess.
THEY are the gate-keepers if PM ever had any.

Mario is on the TL/Samus end too. Got some attention, that faded a bit, but most of this was seemingly due to an ease-of-play with a certain style that involved almost everything that an end-game Mario wouldn't be doing. In Melee, my Mario/Fox could beat Mango's Mario/Fox, and his Mario/Fox could beat my Mario/Fox. This was in 2010, so a while ago, but In our matches, we both noted very directly at how we barely ever jumped. Ever. Mario simply can't get away with that kind of commitment when it comes to end-game level play.

Yet all I've really see in PM Mario-matches from 2.1 to today is things like full-jump Fireballs and attempts at D-Air, or some aerial into D-Smash or raw approach into clipping someone with something.

He can get away with this in the sense that he has a lot of hard-hitbox coverage, but as soon as Mario is seen as a character that uses that to cover his holes in neutral and choke people out with spacing and short-burst maneuvers, rather than force openings or holes in the opponents game, the sooner his meta-game will be seen like that of a modern-day Falco, rather than a 2007 Melee Falco trying to laser into direct combos because counter-offensive play isn't coming his way yet.

Once the basis of what I mention in the DAT Smash is starting to look like a puzzle coming together in the meta-game among top-players in the public eye, then the general public will start to get an idea of what Mario can ACTUALLY do in PM, and how good he really is.
http://smashboards.com/threads/stubby-arms-and-fireballs-the-comprehensive-mario-guide.346088/
That DAT thing should explain it, but basically Mario is a fortress of defensive-to-offensive transition options and can maneuver through anything. IF he stays grounded and keeps the fortress up.
There is no thing that Mario can't deal with, and it has NOTHING to do with being a diverse and flexible character. Mario can deal with anything simply because he can play a defensive ground game that is essentially impenetrable.
Stop getting hit. It's easy with any of these characters, and Mario does it through a foundation of dashes and shields and pokes that never get him in trouble. The cool stuff happens naturally, everybody knows that, so it has to come eventually where people stop going for it and just let Mario do his cool things when they come.
Falco-style, really. Falco going for D-Air > Jab > D-Smash on shields would be weird, and it's weird to me when Mario does it today. This is old and would have looked really odd if a D-Smash followed even at that point of the meta, it looks weird from PM Mario right now.
http://gfycat.com/VapidRaggedAruanas
Imagine a Mario that simply never gets hit, and is always around the opponent to threaten them. THAT is the Mario that will come, and THAT is the Mario that shuts down the rest of the PM roster.

this is another big story but short-form...
We've seen random players spamming Hail-Mary Up-B's and Down-B-Repeat strings both do very well, and everything between. Similar to Mario, in terms of the way an ACTUAL end-game style and game-plan has yet to surface on any world-class level but is slowly being gravitated TOWARD at every level of play, and is inevitable, the same is the case with Luigi.

Soon we may see the campy spacing Luigi do well, with F-Tilts and aerials and playing very safe, hardly doing any real approaches but being precise and picking moments (think 'Ka' style), or maybe the fly-by Luigi will surface, similar to the Up-B straight-approach but with U-Tilts and Smashes and Grabs all raw out of simple and direct play. Maybe the complexity will show up in some ball by someone. Either way, nobody seems to have any idea how good this character is at all.

All I'll bother with this one is, he's gotten some attention recently as a "Maybe he's not so bad" character. What is it that people missed if they think he's low-tier instead of bottom-tier? Why didn't they think he was mid-tier instead of low-tier before? Why do they think he's high-tier now instead of mid-tier?

What is everyone REALLY missing/looking for/seeing? Pay close attention and maybe we'll see.
For now, I don't see what everyone is missing, and I have NO IDEA AT ALL why people think he's better now than they thought he was in 2.1.
Not much has changed with HIM, did the game around him change that much to benefit him?
Or do people still think he's bad? If so, I still don't get it. What makes him bad? What WOULD make him on-par with the Melee-Top-Tier?

Again, it makes no sense, and if someone can explain why Luigi is suddenly a lot better in 3.5/etc, that would be great. Never has someone been able to explain why he's bad, or show why he's bad, and the only explanations that come up support him being quite good, and the only demonstrated stuff about Luigi in any matches or tournaments or anything basically screams that he's VERY strong. This has been the way it is since day-1 of 2.1, just like with the others, and I don't get it.

Is it possible that everyone who thinks he's a "little better" now, missed something else, and will think he's better at a later date? Very likely.
Screw his stock-taking or neutral-breaking and speed and range... The character can be very non-committal while remaining to be a threat. There is plenty of counter-play in the sense of nullifying a lot of Luigi's more 'direct' options, but this is no different than stopping Puff from hitting you with Raw B-Air's. She can still use B-Air as a center-piece, and adjust in a way that it's threatening without getting herself killed. Every counter-play to Luigi to-date has been minimal, and every counter-play TO that counter-play has been minimal on Luigi's end. The meta-game is a baby in this one STILL.







I'm not sure if this is helpful, or worth discussing, but that's something that I see when I look at the game, and always has been.

Everyone around here seems to be approaching the 'goodness-of-characters' topic from the opposite direction. I completely understand why, but I also understand very well that none of the people who are doing so completely understand why they do.

Hence the confusion.

I'll be confused in my little bubble. You'll all be confused with mine.
Smash is good like that.

So to me it seems like you do understand why people didn't but now do see Luigi as good, but you're missing a small piece. It's how characters are developed and players give exposure to their options that changes opinions. Many see videos and options and talk with mains and get that whole experience, but until you play against a few competent players of a character do many actually see how different options play out against them. Luigi was one of those characters who didn't have many great players in various regions for people to experience before 3.5, and as such people were looking at him from the opposite end of the spectrum when compared to you - what is he missing, why should I or others play him, what problems does he have. Then when a few more players got to a decent level, started traveling, and actually interacted with more players more regularly, those questions were better answered.
I think it's easy to overshoot theory in either direction. Easier than underestimating and much easier than getting guesses right. If your perspective is what tools does he have for success, and another person says what tools does he have trouble against, more often than not when both parties don't have tons of experience against the pm incarnation the guesses of goodness will be opposite. It's only with lots of play and experience with or against characters (in an honest form, with players explaining thoughts and actions and interactions) would either party start to get closer to what that realistic place is.

But then you have this for 41 characters, with lots of games not having honest dialog about options and decisions or reactions (people should give feedback more imo), limited region interactions and a solid mix of salt which leads to weird placements and beliefs and many regions inaccurately believing very strongly about very certain characters in relation to the entire cast.

 

[didds]

All makes sense, and all fair points. This kind of discussion eventually boils down to the whole answer for everything debate, which I think that we're getting close to.

Regarding this:


I really think that QAC is super untapped right now. The most interesting way that I saw it used was by Capitulize against Shane at Blacklisted. He was juggling with uairs and using QAC to quickly get back to the stage rather than SHFFLing. It was really cool to watch.

I know personally I don't use it much, and ironically it's because I try to not commit too much (right after saying committing isn't always bad lol). As of now I basically only use it to choke out campers who are getting to comfortable or as a return to stage from ledge mixup. I want to experiment more with using it for extending combos but I'll admit it's purely mixup for me at this point.

Edit: and yea, Rock Paper Scissors is fun

 

[Nausicaa]

1) Pikachu will forever have a harder time with Peach/Sheik/Mario/Falco than he ever will with Marth/CF/Fox/MK.
In-and-out game isn't the factor that matters here.
What is it?

2) Luigi has more difficulty with CF than Marth, for the same reasons that Marth makes things difficult for him.
CF doesn't have a sword, and it's not Dash-Dancing.
What is it?

If these kinds of things aren't understood properly, not even applied properly in play/actual tangible levels but at least considered as the factors they are, then no evaluation of a tier-list will be accurate by that person.
If these things aren't figured out for these kinds of characters, when there is context around them with Melee as a source and a bit of meta-game behind them, then there's no question as to why most talk and analysis of tier-lists in this thread are far off when it comes to the deciphering of the greater-collection of bran new characters in this game.
The majority of people in the PM community aren't in any mental state or place to make any kind of accurate statement about the game, very much so due to this kind of thing lacking from their view.

This isn't about convincing anyone that these characters are good.
Any time I've said Peach isn't garbage tier has had nothing to do with me trying to prove Peach is good. There's no point in discussing things this way. The end result of that would be as simple and mundane as concluding 'this character doesn't need major buffs in PM' and there's no reason for me to drive a conversation in that direction.

The purpose is simply to nudge everyone reading and discussing and contemplating the characters of this game in new ways.

It's the same today as it was then.
To improve means to become different toward what is better.
To become different means to change.
Change, is the only way to improve in any way.
How do you see the game with a little more clarity/accuracy/understanding/in a new and better way to play SMASH better?

Look at the game differently.

@Project M Tier List Discussion Posters/Readers/People

Answer the questions 1 and 2 and we'll be taking a step on the path to an accurate tier list.

What are they?

So to me it seems like you do understand why people didn't but now do see Luigi as good, but you're missing a small piece. It's how characters are developed and players give exposure to their options that changes opinions. Many see videos and options and talk with mains and get that whole experience, but until you play against a few competent players of a character do many actually see how different options play out against them. Luigi was one of those characters who didn't have many great players in various regions for people to experience before 3.5, and as such people were looking at him from the opposite end of the spectrum when compared to you - what is he missing, why should I or others play him, what problems does he have. Then when a few more players got to a decent level, started traveling, and actually interacted with more players more regularly, those questions were better answered.
I think it's easy to overshoot theory in either direction. Easier than underestimating and much easier than getting guesses right. If your perspective is what tools does he have for success, and another person says what tools does he have trouble against, more often than not when both parties don't have tons of experience against the pm incarnation the guesses of goodness will be opposite. It's only with lots of play and experience with or against characters (in an honest form, with players explaining thoughts and actions and interactions) would either party start to get closer to what that realistic place is.

But then you have this for 41 characters, with lots of games not having honest dialog about options and decisions or reactions (people should give feedback more imo), limited region interactions and a solid mix of salt which leads to weird placements and beliefs and many regions inaccurately believing very strongly about very certain characters in relation to the entire cast.

First, one of my favorite things to explain to people.
"Become fluent so you can play, rather than play until you're fluent."

Now to address what you said...
That missing-piece you're talking about is exactly what I'm referring to with my big post, so good elaboration there.

Here is what the difference between what I'm trying to point at, and what you just pointed out.
This whole thing (all you just went over) is very clear. To everybody.
The angle that you're approaching this from is in the light of this.
'people aren't able to see everything in clarity due to reasons'
Which is in turn letting the results be a slow and steady catch-up over time.
This is the over-playing oneself into fluency.

What I'm suggesting, is to approach in in the form of this.
'we see with SOME clarity, what are the reasons for this?'
Which in turn results in seeing everything with more clarity.
This is the becoming fluent to play.

That make sense?

Simply put, if you're aware of something, then why not address it AS IT IS?
You're aware that you CANNOT see the end-game clearly, due to (everything you stated above about lacking visual representation etc etc)
You're aware that you CAN see some of the end-game clearly, due to some content, some context, some perspective, some something.
Work with the latter AS YOUR TOOL to understand the former, and suddenly you're heading in EXACTLY the direction that leads to the answer. The answer you're saying is possible to get accurately, but isn't possible because of those issues. Those issues addressed accordingly, and ta-dah, you're on the way.
Work with the layers.

Hope that makes sense. lol

 

[Player -0]

Along with the usual speculation, thoughts about going through each character and reviewing options and stuff in specific situations/and in general? Probably starting with lesser known/less used characters then moving towards more frequent and see how it affects people's opinions?

 

[Frost | Odds]

Along with the usual speculation, thoughts about going through each character and reviewing options and stuff in specific situations/and in general? Probably starting with lesser known/less used characters then moving towards more frequent and see how it affects people's opinions?

Theorycrafting the entire game is sort of a huge undertaking. I've been procrastinating finishing up my series for a character that I love to death as it is.

 

[Player -0]

Seems better than awkward circle jerk that sometimes leads to interesting things

 

[Boiko]

Answer the questions 1 and 2 and we'll be taking a step on the path to an accurate tier list.

If your tier list is any indication of what you believe is accurate, then I'm afraid that you and I, and many other people have highly varying philosophies on what makes a character good.

 

[Nausicaa]

If your tier list is any indication of what you believe is accurate, then I'm afraid that you and I, and many other people have highly varying philosophies on what makes a character good.

Don't worry about that.
Take this post as a stand-alone post.
It has absolutely NOTHING to do with Pikachu/Luigi/Marth/Sheik being good or bad.

Go ahead and consider Pikachu and Luigi bad, that's good.

1) Pikachu will forever have a harder time with Peach/Sheik/Mario/Falco than he ever will with Marth/CF/Fox/MK.
In-and-out game isn't the factor that matters here.
What is it?

2) Luigi has more difficulty with CF than Marth, for the same reasons that Marth makes things difficult for him.
CF doesn't have a sword, and it's not Dash-Dancing.
What is it?

The thing we're exploring together in our discussions about the goodness/badness of them is the ONLY thing of significance.
They could be bad, that's fine, and this weakness alone could be the reason they are bad.
BUT
If you're going to consider them bad due to their weakness, at least understand what that weakness is.

That is all I'm suggesting.
Stop going to semantics.
Start looking at what exists.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

1) Pikachu will forever have a harder time with Peach/Sheik/Mario/Falco than he ever will with Marth/CF/Fox/MK.
In-and-out game isn't the factor that matters here.
What is it?

2) Luigi has more difficulty with CF than Marth, for the same reasons that Marth makes things difficult for him.
CF doesn't have a sword, and it's not Dash-Dancing.
What is it?

Teacher, I don't know what you're getting at w/ question 1.

2) CF's moveset just has more momentum. He covers more ground when applying pressure unlike Marth.
It's harder for Luigi because CF has the speed to keep up with his movement options.

 

[Nausicaa]

question 1.

2) CF's moveset just has more momentum. He covers more ground when applying pressure unlike Marth.
It's harder for Luigi because CF has the speed to keep up with his movement options.

1) I'll wait for other replies still. Though it'll likely be helpful for you to attempt it as best you can.
In ANY match-up, what about those 1st 4 characters can make life hard on someone? You play Sheik, so the DD camping and pressure game of the 2nd batch is a threat to you.
If you ever have trouble with the 1st batch, where does it come from? What is it that doesn't allow you to straight up destroy those characters if they don't have that DD camping and pressure element to them?
Your understanding of this for yourself is the only thing that matters. Try your best.

2)
"CF's moveset"
What kind of moves are these? What does he primarily use in his moveset?
"He covers more ground"
An expression for covering distance (space). Why is it being covered a 'threat'?

Start with that.

 

[Life]

1) Pikachu will forever have a harder time with Peach/Sheik/Mario/Falco than he ever will with Marth/CF/Fox/MK.
In-and-out game isn't the factor that matters here.
What is it?

2) Luigi has more difficulty with CF than Marth, for the same reasons that Marth makes things difficult for him.
CF doesn't have a sword, and it's not Dash-Dancing.
What is it?

I'd like to take a crack at these.

1) The first set of characters have stronger defensive options that don't involve moving fast.

Peach, Sheik, Mario, and Falco have defensive options that don't involve moving quickly and ways of interrupting Pikachu's movement with projectiles. When you can negate Pikachu's advantage in movement, his stubby arms syndrome kicks in.

Marth, Falcon, Fox, and Meta Knight's defenses against characters like Pikachu involve moving just as fast in order to get out of the way; since Pikachu is also fast, it makes for a ton of room for error.

"But Life, didn't I JUST say it wasn't the in-and-out game?" Well, yeah, you did. But almost every character in the game can wall Pikachu out to one degree or another (including the second group of characters).

What the first group of characters can do is limit Pikachu's ability to move, regardless of whether Pikachu is "in" or not. Marth, Falcon, and Meta Knight all have to get in close in order to actually do anything to Pikachu; with Fox it probably depends if lasers or the occasional reflected Thunder Jolt count as "doing anything to Pikachu."

In short, Pikachu's biggest advantageous trait is his ability to move really fast, which covers for his stubby arms. It's not characters that have long arms that give Pikachu trouble, then; it's characters that limit the thing that covers for Pikachu's stubby arms.

Am I close?

2) Not sure I agree with the premise. I will say that I think Marth doesn't necessarily beat Luigi in a truly neutral situation; it's the fact that Marth can abuse certain types of positional advantage against Luigi super hard due to the latter's awful aerial mobility and less than safe recovery. Meanwhile, Luigi can get pretty decent true combos on Marth, and can get kills more consistently than Marth does, but once the true combo part is over, Marth has an easier time resetting things to a more neutral stage position without taking much additional damage. Meanwhile, Luigi punishes Falcon to the moon and back. (RIP Hax Falcon.)

I think your point is that Luigi wants to be a certain distance away from someone to punish them for overreaching, and Marth can encroach on that spacing but Falcon does it better? But I'm not sure we're on the same wavelength here.

 

[InfinityCollision]

1) The first four characters are "stoppers", for my brain's present lack of a better term. It's harder for Pika to get anything started on them, and the methods by which they punish errors and limit movement are effective against him.

2) CF exerts influence over large portions of space-time in a way that's very safe thanks to his meaty fly-by aerials and punishing grab game. Luigi is fast, but he needs both space and time to make good use of that movement. Marth establishes a more absolute control over a given space if he throws out a dtilt or fair thanks to his disjoint, but he's more limited in both space and time so it's easier for Luigi to slip through the cracks.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

2. there's like a few reasons I can possibly think of for this but I don't think either matchup is really all that terrible for luigi
luigi's issue with marth is that marth constantly controls the space right in front of him but can't really do much outside of that. marth can bait and punish a luigi for approaching that area and dashdance to extend that area but marth is kinda limited in that meaning luigi can threaten to approach, back off, then punish marth for responding with a defensive fair or fsmash (or he can wavedash spotdodge through it

falcon doesn't threaten the area right in front of him, he threatens in arcs across the stage and can easily trade stage position with luigi, something that luigi definitely does not want to have happen. flyby aerials are really good, nair provides better pressure against luigi than most of marth's stuff does, and he also gets guaranteed knee off of dthrow lmao
falcon can be in a safe space, threaten, and quickly return to another safe space whereas marth creates a safe space around him for a short moment
playing marth you rely on a lot of ftilts, jabs, and dsmashes whereas playing falcon you rely on utilts, which are not nearly as disjointed as all of the previous options

but idk I'm bad what do I know

 

[DMG]

I think Marth with top 5 player spacing + full pivot usage is probably harder for Luigi than Falcon. Marth may be more stage dependent for adv tho.

 

[Life]

but idk I'm bad what do I know

My running theory is that doing thought exercises like this is a key part of getting good, especially when you're starved of the biggest factor where getting good is concerned (i.e. lots of practice against other good people). Sure, go ahead and do the "I'm bad, but" disclaimer--I do it all the time, it's an honesty thing and I think people are inclined to be more patient with you when you admit you aren't perfect--but don't devalue your input in so doing.

I think you're probably correct, actually.

Now if only I were as good as Nausicaa at posing questions that result in meaningful discussion.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

My running theory is that doing thought exercises like this is a key part of getting good, especially when you're starved of the biggest factor where getting good is concerned (i.e. lots of practice against other good people). Sure, go ahead and do the "I'm bad, but" disclaimer--I do it all the time, it's an honesty thing and I think people are inclined to be more patient with you when you admit you aren't perfect--but don't devalue your input in so doing.

I think you're probably correct, actually.

Now if only I were as good as Nausicaa at posing questions that result in meaningful discussion.

well thought exercises are generally all I have to do as I only really get to play with people once a week if that and even then that's not that meaningful
I also was/am/have been really bad for a very long time and the whole "getting good" thing was something that happened naturally but slowly and I didn't really think about anything

I think Marth with top 5 player spacing + full pivot usage is probably harder for Luigi than Falcon. Marth may be more stage dependent for adv tho.

marth falcon are both not fun matchups but I think falcon can do more against a campy and totally non-interactive and non-committal luigi than marth can

such a luigi puts a higher price on stage and space control than anything else, which might be one ideal way to play luigi but given the tools that luigi has it can't be the only ideal way
luigi still has silly crossup/crossthrough options and fireball waveland is still a really good approach option so an approaching and aggro luigi is still a feasible option

plus luigi's large scale movement options are similar in speed to falcon's and squirtle's (aka mini falcon) despite being a little more esoteric and stage dependent, meaning an aggo luigi can still chase people in the air from one side of the stage to the other
but it's hard and not many people can/will do it

also luigi is probably the only character I know anything about in PM

 

[DMG]

Nausicaa makes you question things beyond Smash. Like you pick up the controller and start having an existential crisis: is this real life? Am I the figment of someone else's imagination, a tuckered Hamster running on fumes in the brainstorming cloud of dreamy nothingness that another man holds the keys to? A LIFE DOOMED TO PURGATORY, UNABLE TO ESCAPE THE WRATH OF DESTINY?!?!?!?


Then you get shined and die. Like snapping out of a cold sweat, you frantically gasp for air as you come to terms with this newfound reality. Your controller is the extension of your soul, the inner essence gifted from almighty God...


And you just got 4 stocked.


Deep questions linger, such as " Why do we use physical controllers, if we cannot control our minds?" Yeah, go sit on that for awhile

 

[Mr.Pickle]

This is what my quickly thrown together 3.6b list looked like with everything removed except Melee-ish characters.

I don't see any of this guy fraudulence detected.

 

[Player -0]

Yay discussion.

2. Is it because Falcon can set up juggling positions vs. Luigi not quite as easily as Marth but Falcon's juggles push Luigi offstage/a much less favorable position than being juggled more easily?

Kinda confused on why Falcon is better vs. Luigi though. I'm ready for the crazy thought process.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

marth can fair luigi all the way across the stage and once luigi is offstage against marth he should be dead

luigi's recovery has long range but is terribly linear UNLESS HE HAS A MISFIRE in which case rather than having two easily defensible options he has 3

how to edgeguard luigi: cover the high option, covering for a misfire, if he doesn't recover high, you can fastfall to the ledge faster than he can.
hold ledge and refresh invincibility to prevent sweetspot missle
drop down and punish endlag on downb
refresh invincibility, grab ledge to force upb onto stage, punish endlag accordingly.

best case scenario you hit him back out for another cycle through an endless edgeguard loop, worst case you put damage on him and hit him across stage where he amsa techs AND STILL FLIES OFF THE EDGE BECAUSE LOL FRICTION now you have another edgeguarding situation if you can get there quick enough

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

1) I'll wait for other replies still. Though it'll likely be helpful for you to attempt it as best you can.
In ANY match-up, what about those 1st 4 characters can make life hard on someone? You play Sheik, so the DD camping and pressure game of the 2nd batch is a threat to you.
If you ever have trouble with the 1st batch, where does it come from? What is it that doesn't allow you to straight up destroy those characters if they don't have that DD camping and pressure element to them?
Your understanding of this for yourself is the only thing that matters. Try your best.

2)
"CF's moveset"
What kind of moves are these? What does he primarily use in his moveset?
"He covers more ground"
An expression for covering distance (space). Why is it being covered a 'threat'?

Start with that.

1)Peach, Mario, Sheik & Falco all have:
Respectable Projectiles
Good~Excellent Punish Game
Good Disengage
Decent~Great Edge Guard/gimps

These are pretty solid traits that serve them well in most if not all of their MU's.

He never said Luigi was worse than CF and Marth, he asked why does he have a harder time against CF than Marth.
2) CF should be really good at choking out Luigi's (and a few others) space and stage control via his meaty aerials despite his slipperiness. It doesn't really matter to CF as much it does to Marth. Movement is a valuable commodity in this game and controlling is a really powerful trait for a character to have.

 

[Boiko]

To be honest, I'm surprised that this many of you actually indulged in this...trivia.

I'm here to have a meaningful discussion about different components of the game, not entertain a guessing game which would help explain how Nausicaa validates his opinions. This is the same as me saying something like, "Despite popular opinion, Mario actually beats Fox due to this one trick that no one has brought up in 915 pages. I know what it is. But I'm not going to tell you." If you're trying to prove a point, just say what you're trying to say.

If you want to talk about Luigi's match ups with Marth and Falcon, and why you think one is better/worse than the other, talk about it, don't write a riddle for everyone to solve.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

To be honest, I'm surprised that this many of you actually indulged in this...trivia.

I'm here to have a meaningful discussion about different components of the game, not entertain a guessing game which would help explain how Nausicaa validates his opinions. This is the same as me saying something like, "Despite popular opinion, Mario actually beats Fox due to this one trick that no one has brought up in 915 pages. I know what it is. But I'm not going to tell you." If you're trying to prove a point, just say what you're trying to say.

If you want to talk about Luigi's match ups with Marth and Falcon, and why you think one is better/worse than the other, talk about it, don't write a riddle for everyone to solve.

Well, I get he's trying to make us view things in a different perspective that could be used in the future when assigning characters to tiers. Maybe we are concentrating on the wrong things during discussion or maybe there's some greater portrait @ Nausicaa is trying to make us realize. -Shrugs-

 

[PlateProp]

Nausicaa already said that's what he's trying to do.

@ Frost | Odds would you make charge armor start at straight medium or something else? I think straight medium would be kinda crazy, but I could see 3-5 frames of charge being alright on dsmash -and usmash, probably 4-6 on fsmash (transitioning that one to heavy armor instead of medium)