Tier List Speculation

[Ageha]

I think ROB's weight was fine in 3.5. He's obviously made of the finest japanese aluminum allowing for maximum aerial performance. Come on guys.

 

[Ripple]

I made a thread on how to make DDD not entirely ass in full 3.6. please check it out.

http://smashboards.com/threads/how-to-fix-ddd-for-the-full-3-6-patch.413167/

 

[MLGF]

Honestly, while Marth:Ganon was likely Ganon's best Melee top tier matchup in Melee, I don't think any of his new tools actually improved his matchup with Marth enough to make anything substantially easier for him.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Float potential and all that jazz is there, I just don't see if helping against Marf.

 

[The Baron]

Honestly, while Marth:Ganon was likely Ganon's best Melee top tier matchup in Melee, I don't think any of his new tools actually improved his matchup with Marth enough to make anything substantially easier for him.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Float potential and all that jazz is there, I just don't see if helping against Marf.

I don't see how ganon can break Marth out of DD honestly. Until that happens I don't think Ganon wins the match up since marth just straight up wins neutral.

 

[SOJ]

Lol wouldnt have to worry about the placebo if the DT didnt **** something up (as usual)

I still maintain that the weight change wont make much of a difference besides forcing rob mains to relearn the same combos/timings theyve been using forever for no reason (aka pretty much the worst thing you could do in game design). Stuff like that getting changed is exactly why its hard for me to care about PM in a serious context

Really gotta say that I hate your attitude here Oracle. So we've made mistakes in the past...are you somehow the perfect human to never make mistakes in your life??

When multiple people work with files on the team it's really easy to accidentally overwrite something someone else did without realizing it. We spend days checking this stuff but we don't always catch everything. That's why we shifted gears for this release to call it a Beta because we knew some things might go wrong...and they did.

All your post really does is make you look like an ass. Changing ROB's weight doesn't even affect how he combos. Your mentality is comparable to M2k where you're judging something before you even test it out.

 

[OHrigby]

Lol wouldnt have to worry about the placebo if the DT didnt **** something up (as usual)

I still maintain that the weight change wont make much of a difference besides forcing rob mains to relearn the same combos/timings theyve been using forever for no reason (aka pretty much the worst thing you could do in game design). Stuff like that getting changed is exactly why its hard for me to care about PM in a serious context

Why are you acting like such a brat when PM is a game that took crazy amounts of time to be put together for free? Its one of the few games that addresses its problems through the communities voice. If you don't like it, then don't play it.. You wouldn't be **** in the smash community if it weren't for PM anyway.. its the only iteration you're actually good at. And why are you so pissed about the change not being included? i'd understand if junebug lost LTC3 finals to DF solely because of the change not being in.. but you main the damn characetr..

 

[Oracle]

Sorry yall been grumpy from having the flu. Dont really mean to discredit pmdts work just frustrated about other stuff. I am human garbage

 

[DrinkingFood]

Yeah you know it's my favorite thing when my recent improvement has been all but discarded in favor of just kind of assuming that ROB is still this unbeatable character, when he never was
I go like 1 event every 2 months and can't afford to waste opportunities "proving" I have good secondaries, because I want to win with ROB, tl;dr finding out this change didn't actually happen sucks because now until the next large PM tourney near me that I can go to (will ****ing never know when) basically my performance is going to be discounted
thanks PMDT
/rant
/notthesocialthreadjustinfractmeSB

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ Oracle we all get buttfrustrated about stuff sometimes. I still think you add a lot to the scene and would be sorry to see you go, but sometimes a break is the best thing you can do for yourself.

Anyway, in light of tonight's IaB, I'll note that I do still think bowser is very weak, but he is also extremely difficult and unintuitive to play against. Oracle and sethlon both played super badly against me, but they were mostly doing things that would have been correct in other matchups - that even these top level players are having huge problems deciphering exactly how to play against bowser I think speaks volumes about how polarizing and uninteractive his design is.

Flame cancel is super ultra obnoxious yo.

 

[Zigludo]

grab him
so polarizing

 

[Kipcom]

I made a thread on how to make DDD not entirely *** in full 3.6. please check it out.

http://smashboards.com/threads/how-to-fix-ddd-for-the-full-3-6-patch.413167/

pls no, i dont want to fight a good character with 4-5 jumps, a transcendent ftilt that is like 3 character lengths long, lives until like 180+%, and has some of the best edgeguarding in the game

why are you doing this to me ripple

 

[DrinkingFood]

Dash attack's size and medium armor allowed it to be used in response to a very wide range of opponents commitments at ranges and in places where current bowser can't really open up a punish effectively. Bowser's threat radius was decreased on several axes with very little compensation. The DD buff is so laughably minor that it may as well not exist - I actually wish it didn't, so I wouldn't constantly have to correct people thinking that Bowser is 100x faster in 3.6b.

Nair's armor reduction and some other changes also hurt a hell of a lot.

Moving the conversation over here from the social thread lol.

Actually I think I may agree with you now as far as his dash speed change goes. I dunno why it felt waaay faster going into the new version, and still does (not just placebo, because I was constantly going inbetween versions just now and it STILL felt way faster) but looking at it frame by frame tells that the difference occurs early in the dash (as expected) and is about equal to the distance his dash already travels in 1 frame (like 1/5 of the squares in the training room). In fact it seems like it almost exists to make up the tiny bit of range his grounded offensive options (dash grab, dash attack, etc) would have lost from his size shrink. Which would mean that the effect of the DD increase would still compound with his size increase for the purpose of improving general DDing (barely at all tho) but not his offensive options out of it.
Considering this was my main point for bowser being better as a whole (quicker attacks are nice too but the "bigger" DD was my main argument) idk if I still agree with my previous position; I still don't think the punishes he lost are a big deal by themselves but it doesn't seem like he actually gained much in return as far as neutral goes since his DD is negligibly better instead of way better like I was so convinced it was.

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

Moving the conversation over here from the social thread lol.

Actually I think I may agree with you now as far as his dash speed change goes. I dunno why it felt waaay faster going into the new version, and still does (not just placebo, because I was constantly going inbetween versions just now and it STILL felt way faster) but looking at it frame by frame tells that the difference occurs early in the dash (as expected) and is about equal to the distance his dash already travels in 1 frame (like 1/5 of the squares in the training room). In fact it seems like it almost exists to make up the tiny bit of range his grounded offensive options (dash grab, dash attack, etc) would have lost from his size shrink. Which would mean that the effect of the DD increase would still compound with his size increase for the purpose of improving general DDing (barely at all tho) but not his offensive options out of it.
Considering this was my main point for bowser being better as a whole (quicker attacks are nice too but the "bigger" DD was my main argument) idk if I still agree with my previous position; I still don't think the punishes he lost are a big deal by themselves but it doesn't seem like he actually gained much in return as far as neutral goes since his DD is negligibly better instead of way better like I was so convinced it was.

You've finally come around DF. It's not that Bowser is unplayable, it's just that he's clearly the worst character in the game right now. I'd say he is about as potent as Melee Young Link. It's sad that my MK, who I picked up 2 weeks ago and have not played with 5% of the time I have invested in Bowser, is just as if not more capable of winning a set.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

@ Oracle we all get buttfrustrated about stuff sometimes. I still think you add a lot to the scene and would be sorry to see you go, but sometimes a break is the best thing you can do for yourself.

Anyway, in light of tonight's IaB, I'll note that I do still think bowser is very weak, but he is also extremely difficult and unintuitive to play against. Oracle and sethlon both played super badly against me, but they were mostly doing things that would have been correct in other matchups - that even these top level players are having huge problems deciphering exactly how to play against bowser I think speaks volumes about how polarizing and uninteractive his design is.

Flame cancel is super ultra obnoxious yo.

I love flame cancelling, and if the opponent doesnt know what to do and they ask, I think the best answer is to say "trying singing through the fire and flames while DI'ing up" is a great answer.... On the real note, i noticed that i either get crushed or crush my opponent, theres no real middle ground.

Moving the conversation over here from the social thread lol.
Actually I think I may agree with you now as far as his dash speed change goes. I dunno why it felt waaay faster going into the new version, and still does (not just placebo, because I was constantly going inbetween versions just now and it STILL felt way faster) but looking at it frame by frame tells that the difference occurs early in the dash (as expected) and is about equal to the distance his dash already travels in 1 frame (like 1/5 of the squares in the training room). In fact it seems like it almost exists to make up the tiny bit of range his grounded offensive options (dash grab, dash attack, etc) would have lost from his size shrink. Which would mean that the effect of the DD increase would still compound with his size increase for the purpose of improving general DDing (barely at all tho) but not his offensive options out of it.
Considering this was my main point for bowser being better as a whole (quicker attacks are nice too but the "bigger" DD was my main argument) idk if I still agree with my previous position; I still don't think the punishes he lost are a big deal by themselves but it doesn't seem like he actually gained much in return as far as neutral goes since his DD is negligibly better instead of way better like I was so convinced it was.

Finally You are agreeing, after all that struggle of trying to convince you lol He speed increases really dont help when his range is nerfed... They kinda just counter balance (except his air speed was not buffed so air combat is lacking when it comes to chasing)

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ DrinkingFood I was fully convinced that Bowser was totally unplayable, and I'm unconvinced that I can in good conscience keep defending that position, too. He's still awful and has a lot of autolosses, but the difficulty of the counterplay is such that sometimes I can just kind of avoid interaction until I see my opponent screwing up, then hit him with a safe shield drop or something.

I'd need to grind a lot more with these guys. Strong bad and lunchables did quite badly against me at first in friendlies, relative to the gaps in our player skills, but began performing much more reliably in the matchup once they figured it out a bit. Oracle and sethlon are both very salty players sometimes, so a snap judgement based on their performance while tilting, would be a mistake.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

@ DrinkingFood I was fully convinced that Bowser was totally unplayable, and I'm unconvinced that I can in good conscience keep defending that position, too. He's still awful and has a lot of autolosses, but the difficulty of the counterplay is such that sometimes I can just kind of avoid interaction until I see my opponent screwing up, then hit him with a safe shield drop or something.

I'd need to grind a lot more with these guys. Strong bad and lunchables did quite badly against me at first in friendlies, relative to the gaps in our player skills, but began performing much more reliably in the matchup once they figured it out a bit. Oracle and sethlon are both very salty players sometimes, so a snap judgement based on their performance while tilting, would be a mistake.

I legitimately think its match up knowledge, but i still think bowser is way worse in 3.6. Like i can win a set or the first game, but then they figure my character out and then its like a bad game of tag.

 

[The_NZA]

Ripple, I fully support your entire changelog. The only thing i'm slightly nervous about is Fsmash being as good as Ike's, because the way I see it, DDD has way higher survivability than Ike/Fox and sets up tech situations far more frequently than Ike off of the ease of grabs and the mean angle of dthrow. I'd worry about a DDD willing to gamble on every dthrow getting way too good of a deal when you consider:

A. the amount he can gamble in a stock purely on the basis of the number of dthrows he'll get
B. The amount he can gamble in a stock purely on the basis of his survivability.

Personally, I think with your changes, DDD would be on the Lucas-Wario-Diddy level of the game. The line between those three is pretty thin, even if people like to separate them across tiers, and I think thats the sweetspot the game should be aiming to balance everyone. I hope they can seriously look at the bottom 20 characters, and give them all buffs to ascend to that level. Nothing to fear, should be the mentality.

EDIT:

I was also confused about the transendent ftilt but after talking to Apollo Ali, I get it. Apparently ftilt clanks iwth anything that does like more than 3 or 4% damage, and the clank animation puts DDD in a pretty frame disadvantaged situation. Apparently, this becomes a major problem when someone is throwing out projectiles, as clanking with ftilt opens you up to followups. If ftilt was transendent, DDD could ftilt straight through it and he'd trade being hit by a projectile to hit the opponent and keep them away/off him. Which is a trade DDD might want considering his durability.

The only thing I disagreed with was Waddledashing being too niche or situational. I see the positives of making waddles walk slower, but I don't think waddle dashing should be improved at all.

 

[Sardonyx]

Ripple, I fully support your entire changelog. The only thing i'm slightly nervous about is Fsmash being as good as Ike's, because the way I see it, DDD has way higher survivability than Ike/Fox and sets up tech situations far more frequently than Ike off of the ease of grabs and the mean angle of dthrow.

Personally, I think with your changes, DDD would be on the Lucas-Wario-Diddy level of the game. The line between those three is pretty thin, even if people like to separate them across tiers, and I think thats the sweetspot the game should be aiming to balance everyone. I hope they can seriously look at the bottom 20 characters, and give them all buffs to ascend to that level. Nothing to fear, should be the mentality.

I like your positivity in this thread, jussayin

 

[Idostuff]

Why does everyone keep placing Ike at the very top of their tier lists? Don't get me wrong, Ike is really good, but he's Def A Tier and not S tier, and imo the worst Fire emblem char. He loses badly to wolf and falco, loses to fox, marth, ROB, and Pit ( free arrow snipes to break QD charge offstage). Not sure about everyone else.

If we are talking about results, Ally and Metroid, arguably the best Ike players atm, didn't even do that well at I&B, and ltc3.

Also please don't change Ike anymore. He's right at the level I want all characters to be. Good and really fun to play, with out being oppressive and having defined, exploitable weakness like his terrible OOS options.

 

[The_NZA]

I like your positivity in this thread, jussayin

I can be critical of GnW and bite>waft while also advocating for very positive things. Its the difference between being a person and being a caricature. A few pages back, I made a post saying I disagree with people who say this patch is bad. Its actually the best version of hte game for the top half of hte cast. I just want the bottom 20 characters to be buffed.

Its just that people remember the negative things I say much more than the positive, which makes me really sad.

 

[MLGF]

Eh yeah, more I look at Ike the more I realize he's not as overwhelming as he seemed early on

 

[CyberZixx]

I think Ike is super good. Maybe not S but easily A. I feel he is the the best Fire Emblem character hands down right now. Only thing I don't like about the character is his Recovery. I still feel it is too free for all the other advantages he has. I hate playing vs Ike for that reason.

 

[The_NZA]

I think Ike is super good. Maybe not S but easily A. I feel he is the the best Fire Emblem character hands down right now. Only thing I don't like about the character is his Recovery. I still feel it is too free for all the other advantages he has. I hate playing vs Ike for that reason.

I don't think its a hands down opinion. I still think its Marth > Roy > Ike. At the very least, I don't think there's consensus.

 

[King of Hoboz]

I don't think its a hands down opinion. I still think its Marth > Roy > Ike. At the very least, I don't think there's consensus.

Yeah, I'm going to agree and say Ike is the worst FE character right now. I think Roy and Marth are more even and debatable, but Ike's the worst one (but not by much- he's got a lot of his own things going for him that make him worth playing over the others)

Ike lacks the strong neutral compared to the others to really be the best FE, and his recovery is has a lot of weak points to exploit despite how powerful it is, so it's not something that can put him over the other FEs.

 

[Binary Clone]

Why does everyone keep placing Ike at the very top of their tier lists? Don't get me wrong, Ike is really good, but he's Def A Tier and not S tier, and imo the worst Fire emblem char. He loses badly to wolf and falco, loses to fox, marth, ROB, and Pit ( free arrow snipes to break QD charge offstage). Not sure about everyone else.

If we are talking about results, Ally and Metroid, arguably the best Ike players atm, didn't even do that well at I&B, and ltc3.

Also please don't change Ike anymore. He's right at the level I want all characters to be. Good and really fun to play, with out being oppressive and having defined, exploitable weakness like his terrible OOS options.

Though I mostly agree with you, I'd like to point out that Ally's recent results are really the only ones worth looking much at, but even then, Ike is still not nearly fully developed. Ally does well because he makes very good decisions. But there's still more to the character that he (and other players) haven't experimented with or exploited fully, I think. Not enough to launch him into S tier, but enough that it's harder to gauge his potential against the more well-developed FE characters.

 

[Sethlon]

Oracle and sethlon are both very salty players sometimes, so a snap judgement based on their performance while tilting, would be a mistake.

Who are you callin salty, you short-shorts-wearin-son-of-a-!

No but seriously, Bowser is pretty awful. My play against Odds was pretty butt-tier (bad strike for first stage, no idea how to deal with firebreath, DI'd literally every single command grab incorrectly, etc). The fact that nB is super uninteractive is dumb, but that doesn't change the fact that bowser has tons of matchups he should never be winning.

 

[DMG]

I enjoy Bowser MU, cause I'm pretty sure half of my chars fall into that catagory of "lol bowser"

 

[Ripple]

I suggested giving bowser Balrog's turnaround punch but NOOOOOO. I was laughed at.

immune to projectiles when?

 

[DMG]

Imagine Bowser SFIV Balrog or Dudley style rush down. That would be amazing. PMBR plz

 

[Juushichi]

Bowser is more akin to SFIV Balrog than he is Dudley, btw. Don't confuse the fact that PR Balrog opens up people with Low, Throw, Frametrap (because surprise, Balrog actually doesn't have much of a traditional mixup, overhead is throwable on reaction) with the thought that Balrog is that way by design.

 

[AceGamer]

Bowser is more like a grappler right? Lets give him an anti air command grab then, Zangief has Siberian Blizzard. The DT could give his Koopa claw different angles like some tilts have, although a low angle Koopa claw might be pointless so he just needs an up angle then lol

 

[The Baron]

Bowser is more like a grappler right? Lets give him an anti air command grab then, Zangief has Siberian Blizzard. The DT could give his Koopa claw different angles like some tilts have, although a low angle Koopa claw might be pointless so he just needs an up angle then lol

Angle low could possibly grab people recovering low or otg on missed techs. That would actually be pretty cool. Bowser I don't think is much of a tech chaser but if he could punish missed techs with klaw that'd be swell

 

[JOE!]

Bowser is more like a grappler right? Lets give him an anti air command grab then, Zangief has Siberian Blizzard. The DT could give his Koopa claw different angles like some tilts have, although a low angle Koopa claw might be pointless so he just needs an up angle then lol

Low angle from the air bruh

 

[AceGamer]

My bad lol, I was thinking low angle might not be useful since Koopa claw has a big enough hit box that it doesn't go over small characters but JOE! and The Baron have a point

 

[PlateProp]

Who are you callin salty, you short-shorts-wearin-son-of-a-!

No but seriously, Bowser is pretty awful. My play against Odds was pretty butt-tier (bad strike for first stage, no idea how to deal with firebreath, DI'd literally every single command grab incorrectly, etc). The fact that nB is super uninteractive is dumb, but that doesn't change the fact that bowser has tons of matchups he should never be winning.

How to beat Odds/Bowser:

Be Squirtle
Dodge everything
Everything
Wait until Odds/Bowser kills himself
Repeat

You're welcome

 

[BS_Shane]

Really? Like, this isn't a joke? There's hope? ROB will eventually be able to be combo'd?!

www.twitch.tv/smashinggrounds/v/9968536?t=2h46m22s

lolol

 

[Oracle]

Bowser may do well vs rob but its pretty much only because of 2 moves, and 70% of the cast just doesnt care about those two moves (nair/nb). Still sucks.

I was mostly salty about how much everybody complained about rob mitigating positional advantage when bowser has an armored combo breaker and the best landing move in the game and somehow thats oki guess? Didnt help that i have the flu, makes it pretty difficult to win those hard matchups. Was mostly impressed with odds movement and shield dropping (what kind of pm player shield drops? This isnt even melee)

I would really like to see armor taken off nair and flame cancel removed, and buffs to make bowser a real character instead of 2 broken moves glued on to a bowser plushie

 

[Strong Badam]

I've been shield dropping for months.

 

[MLGF]

Half the top players here shield drop lol

Get with the times, casual scum

 

[Deleted member]

Shield dropping is easier in 3.6, I've been doing it all the time