Tier List Speculation

[didds]

Lol at the salt at the brain dead comment

You gotta acknowledged that some characters have way simpler game plans than others, he's not saying these characters are literally brain dead

 

[Boiko]

@ Boiko I guess it's inappropriate for this thread, but I figured it was worth pointing out that there's an awful lot of situations where Bowser can just dash attack, and it's very unambiguously the best option.

Having linear gameplay like this actually helps a lot at high level play, because it reduces the mental stress of having to make optimal option selections, and the player of the simpler character can focus more on reading the opponent and waiting for the next time that a dash attack/whatever opening appears. Having low tech skill requirements has a similar effect, and also helps reduce tournament fatigue.

These metagame advantages can mean that a 'friendlies' or 'money matches' tier list can theoretically look entirely different from a 'tournament' tier list, which takes into account things like player fatigue.

Bowser is one of the worst (bottom 10) characters in the game right now in terms of matchups, but IMO he's actually a pretty solid tournament character, provided you have a secondary to account for some of his more buttfrustrating matchups. I hypothesize that his metagame advantages (including stuff like scrubby opponents who don't know the MU) are why Bowser tends to overperform in bracket compared to the way his MU spread appears on paper and when tested between high level players.

just edited this post a dozen times, nbd. RIP mods

edit13: this is part of the reason I place Ganon so highly - between 8th-10th or so.

That's great but if I know your best option is to dash attack, I'm going to avoid circumstances where it can hit, and bait it out and punish you for trying. There's a much deeper player vs. player exchange that everyone here is failing to mention when they talk about "brain dead characters." You need to consider when making a tier list that you opponent has a complete understanding of your character, not that they're going to be surprised by something that they haven't seen before. Things like, "player fatigue" should not be considered when making a tier list. It's a non-quantifiable variable that has virtually nothing to do with a character's tier placement.

If you have one great option, a-la Roy's dtilt, your opponent knows about it, and they know how to circumvent. If a PLAYER chooses to be brain dead (note, player, not character), and spam dtilt with mediocre spacing, and by making hard commitments, they're going to lose.

Lol at the salt at the brain dead comment

You gotta acknowledged that some characters have way simpler game plans than others, he's not saying these characters are literally brain dead

Yeah, that's true. I'm not arguing that point.

 

[Strong Badam]

Lol at the salt at the brain dead comment

You gotta acknowledged that some characters have way simpler game plans than others, he's not saying these characters are literally brain dead

You gotta acknowledge that whatever truth there may be in those kinds of comments, they're not related to how good a character is, and thus doesn't help us determine an accurate tier list.

 

[didds]

You gotta acknowledge that whatever truth there may be in those kinds of comments, they're not related to how good a character is, and thus doesn't help us determine an accurate tier list.

I'll definitely acknowledge that much and already do, I just don't want people to interpret what he's saying as being literally devoid of thought, rather they have great options that can simplify many matchups in ways that other characters don't have the luxury of doing.

Approaching the wario mu with fox will always be simpler than approaching it with squirtle

Edit: but yea tier list thread

 

[D e l t a]

Odds, I've been wondering this, what do you think of Lucas v Bowser?

I personally feel the MU is dead even if not the slightest bit in Lucas' favor. Here's why I say this:

Lucas has the tools to keep bowser slightly back, but crawl armor approaches can stop this. Lucas' Nair/Dair can cross up bowser, but all they have to do is UpB / tilt / counterattack in some way after the first Nair/Dair. PKF & Fair are nothing to Bowser and can be CC'd / avoided easily. Only Bair really beats out CC armor and even then, the end lag can be punished

Grab game is even. Both can punish heavily off of one grab and most times can either rack on 50%+ or set up for a ledge guard / kill. It's easy to grab from both sides:
Lucas' low aerial attack range and having to respect bowsers space means that Bowser can sneak in with a dash grab.
Bowser is big. 'Nuff said.

Combos can theoretically be 0-death in this MU. While everybody is in awe of Lucas' combo game (it speaks for itself here), Lucas gets juggled & combo'd very easily due to his awkward weight & fall speed. Uair / Utilt chain into each other repeatedly, upthrow -> light reverse Fair / Bair / Nair -> Fair -> ledge guard. Dash attack -> aerial / Utilt (low %). It's painful.

In neutral, flames & tilts + UpB can keep Lucas out solidly. If the Bowser is patient & smart, they can avoid most of Lucas PKF & aerial approaches. Most attacks are eaten up by armor and the damage ratio for a hit/trade is in bowsers favor. One Dtilt / UpB from Bowser equals a 2-3 hit combo from Lucas

The ledge guards are interesting.

Ledge guarding Bowser
Lucas' short range attacks can be forgiven with ledge invincibility and his smash attacks have just enough disjoint. Dair / Bair spike will always kill Bowser without a double jump if he's off stage. Bowsers' speed of his UpB and the ability to land on stage with little lag can be difficult at times

Ledge guarding Lucas
Grab ledge against tether always. Can lead to Fair/SideB reverse throw punish or Bair if they DI back to avoid SideB. Getup attack under 100% is also deadly against UpB and tether reel in. Non-sweepspot UpB can get decimated by almost every single move of Bowsers (including all his smash attacks). Dtilt can keep Lucas pressured to stay on the ledge

 

[Bazkip]

You guys don't even know about Ike
All Ally does is random fsmashes and they just work
braindead/10

But seriously I don't understand how that man lands so many god damn fsmashes. Ally2gud.

 

[Gawain the Knight]

You guys don't even know about Ike
All Ally does is random fsmashes and they just work
braindead/10

But seriously I don't understand how that man lands so many god damn fsmashes. Ally2gud.

Cause he goes for it at least once a stock or expects his opponents not to sweetspot and they don't

 

[Gawain the Knight]

Where do you guys believe sonic places?

 

[D e l t a]

Where do you guys believe sonic places?

He's a weird character. Anybody with good disjoints or a somewhat quick projectile can beat out his dash approaches, which is what Sonic thrives on. Needles, lasers, swords- all pretty bad for Sonic. I'd say he's a solid mid-tier because slower/larger characters that have little answers to Sonic will absolutely get bodied.

 

[AceGamer]

I'd say he's upper mid tier, he can work around swords since his insane speed lets him bait and punish so well. Plus if the Sonic player takes Sheik, Fox, etc to a stage with platforms he won't have to worry about the projectiles as much

 

[Life]

Gawain, there's an edit button underneath all your posts.

As for Sponic, he's basically a somewhat better Squirtle, in that he loses to characters with good hitboxes or enough speed to keep up with him. He's capable of running circles around the slower cast members and is generally not very explored, especially since Wizzrobe quit him.

Also, both characters are blue speech-capable animals whose names start with S. So there's that, too.

I think he has a lot of potential if people can figure out the Marth/Roy/Falco matchups with him--at a glance I'd bet those three hold him back the most.

 

[Idostuff]

Ally gets so many F-Smash's with Ike b/c he is so insanely smart. When i watch high level spacie mains, they are using crazy tech skill and combos and stuff i could never do unless i practiced with that char for years. When i see Ally play, never do i say "i couldn't do what he just did", he doesn't play flashy, or have extra crazy creative combo extensions, he just chooses the right option, every single time. He reads the **** out of you, and gets a F-smash.

 

[Deleted member]

I'd say he's upper mid tier, he can work around swords since his insane speed lets him bait and punish so well. Plus if the Sonic player takes Sheik, Fox, etc to a stage with platforms he won't have to worry about the projectiles as much

needles and lasers have nothing to do with sonic losing to them

also needles dont "beat" ANY character in neutral in the hands of a good player. whenever people tell me "sheik wins that MU because she has needles in neutral" all you really told me is "im a mid level player that doesnt know how to beat needles". needles are certainly godlike but thats because they facilitate frame traps mid punishment when you dont actually have anything guaranteed, and they are brutal for edge guards. but needles dont beat anyone in neutral.

 

[Gawain the Knight]

Gawain, there's an edit button underneath all your posts.

As for Sponic, he's basically a somewhat better Squirtle, in that he loses to characters with good hitboxes or enough speed to keep up with him. He's capable of running circles around the slower cast members and is generally not very explored, especially since Wizzrobe quit him.

Also, both characters are blue speech-capable animals whose names start with S. So there's that, too.

I think he has a lot of potential if people can figure out the Marth/Roy/Falco matchups with him--at a glance I'd bet those three hold him back the most.

I honestly think Squirtle is severely unexplored more so than certain depths of our oceans

 

[D e l t a]

Being a few spots higher on our PR aside, Lain's Marth/Fox beats Solharath aka Super's Sonic. Before understanding the MU, Super actually used to beat Lain consistently. Toward the end of 3.0, Lain was taking games & sets. Now Lain consistently beats Super's Sonic.

As for Sheik v Sonic, I understand that needles aren't a free win for Sheik; however, you also have to understand that needles force options that otherwise wouldn't happen without the projectile. Many times I hear top Melee players say that Sheik is mid tier at best without needles. They're an amazing projectile and can assist in neutral to force aerial approaches / wall out most approaches. They auto cancel when landing from air to ground and lead into grab. They ledge guard and gimp. Needles are an amazing projectile.

 

[Gawain the Knight]

Being a few spots higher on our PR aside, Lain's Marth/Fox beats Solharath aka Super's Sonic. Before understanding the MU, Super actually used to beat Lain consistently. Toward the end of 3.0, Lain was taking games & sets. Now Lain consistently beats Super's Sonic.

As for Sheik v Sonic, I understand that needles aren't a free win for Sheik; however, you also have to understand that needles force options that otherwise wouldn't happen without the projectile. Many times I hear top Melee players say that Sheik is mid tier at best without needles. They're an amazing projectile and can assist in neutral to force aerial approaches / wall out most approaches. They auto cancel when landing from air to ground and lead into grab. They ledge guard and gimp. Needles are an amazing projectile.

I can't believe sheik would be much lower without needles. Needles just put her in that very healthy top 3 in melee and PM, IMO.

 

[D e l t a]

I can't believe sheik would be much lower without needles. Needles just put her in that very healthy top 3 in melee and PM, IMO.

I'd bet heavily against a Sheik that doesn't use needles ever. If a Sheik player ever wins a large tourney without using needles, let me know. Needles are a very essential part of Sheik's gameplay that make her a top character.

 

[Gawain the Knight]

I'd bet heavily against a Sheik that doesn't use needles ever. If a Sheik player ever wins a large tourney without using needles, let me know. Needles are a very essential part of Sheik's gameplay that make her a top character.

I don't agree with your view, but I respect your opinion regardless.

 

[robosteven]

I don't agree with your view, but I respect your opinion regardless.

The existence of a post like this is amazing.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't agree with your view, but I respect your opinion regardless.

you're half correct. by not using needles ever, you forego a lot of utility that expands sheiks ability to interact with the opponent,\. that said, people win with suboptimal play all the time. personally i would simply bet on the better player.

 

[941]

You gotta acknowledge that whatever truth there may be in those kinds of comments, they're not related to how good a character is, and thus doesn't help us determine an accurate tier list.

I somewhat disagree. The simplicity or usability of a character can give the player of that character an advantage over a character that is just as strong, but more complex. I could easily argue that Ice Climbers are the best character, but the reality is that nobody could realistically play them to their maximum potential. I'm not trying to imply a direct correlation between character complexity and overall strength, but I don't think it's completely irrelevant.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

I honestly think Squirtle is severely unexplored more so than certain depths of our oceans

IKR? Can we talk about the reasons why squirtle has to be so low? I mean he's got crappy range but...

He's like the most mobile character in the game overall. He has great ground speed along with a legit crawl, a crawl attack, an amazing wd, a very solid foxtrot and DD game and a hit box on his skid animation. His aerial movement is incredible. He has great burst movement options in side-b and up-b. Down B allows him to quickly stop and change his aerial movement when needed. He can get in on opponents from a variety of mid range situations unlike anyone else.

His frame data is nuts, especially on startup. Jab, f-tilt, d-tilt, fair, bair, and up air are all very fast on startup with low cooldown. If someone knows how to use squirtle's normals in conjuntion with his movement not only does squirtle actually control a lot of space but that space is completely locked down due to the speed of his attacks and punishes. Since fair, bair, and up-air are all very fast squirtle can chase DI while juggling quite well.

His combos and grab game are great even though he has low damage per hit. Jab, f-tilt, and d-tilt start ground strings, fair can be a combo setup and a kill move, and up air can juggle very well thanks to squirtles aerial mobility. Up tilt is a fast combo starter and GTFO. Jab and dtilt reset combos as the opponent falls, and he is fast enough to chase for followups . All of his throws can combo except for d-throw, which kills, and squirtle's movement allows him to get a lot of grabs.

His edgeguarding is unreal. Fair, dair, and bair especially murder people off stage, his up b is a dangerous and versatile recovery and his reverse aerial rush actually increases his air speed to the point where he can go ridiculously deep. He can quickly snap to the ledge for legdehogging better than most characters due to his low friction and long WD, and if the opponent recovers high they risk getting grabbed at the edge and killed with d-throw.

Due to his mobility, extremely small size and armored nair he has a great disadvantage and is difficult to combo and juggle compared to most characters. It is also hard to land a clean hit on him in neutral. Despite his low weight he has a crazy good recovery thanks to his aerial mobility, up-b, side-b, and down b.

He actually has some tools to at least somewhat patch his bad range up. Bair has good range for its speed and down-b is a situational mid range disjoint. While its kind of bad, neutral b is a ranged projectile that is quick on the draw and can be charged. Side-B, WD jab, WD ftilt, WD grab and WD up smash allow squirtle to quickly get in for a combo or a kill from range.

I've been playing this character a lot lately. He is extremely slippery and versatile and I think he's underrated as ****. If we can realize that Luigi doesn't automatically lose to swords and range because of his bizzare approach options, why are we still making this assumption for squirtle who has much better mobility and a smaller hurtbox?

 

[eideeiit]

Side- and up-b aren't burst movement. Far from it.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Roy is not brain dead. There's actually a lot of depth to the character that goes into getting around your opponents counter play tactics, as well as implementing more difficult tactics like landing his spike (for onstage and offstage use) as well as mixing in footstooling. He's got a lot of interesting and rewarding di mixups that result from high level, optimized gameplay. Since many of his approaches are beat by ccing, he needs to put a decent amount of thought into when and how hes going to approach. I'll give you that dtilt now is more powerful than it needs to be, and the hang time on recovery is kind of dumb, but those are getting fixed in 3.6. I think that roy is an extremely well designed character overall, and not brain dead.

Fox is also not easy to play. Idk where you're getting that from.

They both are. Braindead doesn't mean hard to master, because Fox and Roy are both hard to master, but they are super easy to pick up at not high-level play.

Roy has easy combos, with good priority on his moves, and good range too. He isn't hard to play at all.

Fox is fast with good priority and good kill moves, etc. He is pretty easy for standard play, but he isnt for high level.

Sorry if I made it look like I was talking about high levels of play. Just as characters, they are easy to play.

 

[PlateProp]

IKR? Can we talk about the reasons why squirtle has to be so low? I mean he's got crappy range but...

He's like the most mobile character in the game overall. He has great ground speed along with a legit crawl, a crawl attack, an amazing wd, a very solid foxtrot and DD game and a hit box on his skid animation. His aerial movement is incredible. He has great burst movement options in side-b and up-b. Down B allows him to quickly stop and change his aerial movement when needed. He can get in on opponents from a variety of mid range situations unlike anyone else.

His frame data is nuts, especially on startup. Jab, f-tilt, d-tilt, fair, bair, and up air are all very fast on startup with low cooldown. If someone knows how to use squirtle's normals in conjuntion with his movement not only does squirtle actually control a lot of space but that space is completely locked down due to the speed of his attacks and punishes. Since fair, bair, and up-air are all very fast squirtle can chase DI while juggling quite well.

His combos and grab game are great even though he has low damage per hit. Jab, f-tilt, and d-tilt start ground strings, fair can be a combo setup and a kill move, and up air can juggle very well thanks to squirtles aerial mobility. Up tilt is a fast combo starter and GTFO. Jab and dtilt reset combos as the opponent falls, and he is fast enough to chase for followups . All of his throws can combo except for d-throw, which kills, and squirtle's movement allows him to get a lot of grabs.

His edgeguarding is unreal. Fair, dair, and bair especially murder people off stage, his up b is a dangerous and versatile recovery and his reverse aerial rush actually increases his air speed to the point where he can go ridiculously deep. He can quickly snap to the ledge better than most characters for edgeguarding due to his low friction and lon WD, and if the opponent recovers high they risk getting grabbed at the edge and killed with d-throw.

Due to his mobility, extremely small size and armored nair he has a great disadvantage and is difficult to combo and juggle compared to most characters. It is also hard to land a clean hit on him in neutral. Despite his low weight he has a crazy good recovery thanks to his aerial mobility, up-b, side-b, and down b.

He actually has some tools to at least somewhat patch his bad range up. Bair has good range for its speed and down-b is a situational mid range disjoint. While its kind of bad, neutral b is a ranged projectile that is quick on the draw and can be charged. Side-B, WD jab, WD ftilt, WD grab and WD up smash allow squirtle to quickly get in for a combo or a kill from range.

I've been playing this character a lot lately. He is extremely slippery and versatile and I think he's underrated as ****. If we can realize that Luigi doesn't automatically lose to swords and range because of his bizzare approach options, why are we still making this assumption for squirtle who has much better mobility and a smaller hurtbox?

Squirtle is bad yo

he's actually just like low mid tier or something though, not underrated at all imo

 

[Boiko]

They both are. Braindead doesn't mean hard to master, because Fox and Roy are both hard to master, but they are super easy to pick up at not high-level play.

Roy has easy combos, with good priority on his moves, and good range too. He isn't hard to play at all.

Fox is fast with good priority and good kill moves, etc. He is pretty easy for standard play, but he isnt for high level.

Sorry if I made it look like I was talking about high levels of play. Just as characters, they are easy to play.

Fox is also extremely easy for the cast to combo. If your tech execution isn't tight, you can get punished to death.

There are two sides of the coin here.

 

[PlateProp]

Fox is also extremely easy for the cast to combo. If your tech execution isn't tight, you can get punished to death.

There are two sides of the coin here.

People need to stop using this as an excuse, almost everyone in the cast gets easily comboed in one way or another

 

[Boiko]

People need to stop using this as an excuse, almost everyone in the cast gets easily comboed in one way or another

Oops I missed an L-Cancel and got grabbed on FD.

oh wait.

 

[Ripple]

fox is literally the hardest character to combo if you don't have an up-throw DESIGNED to **** them up

 

[Boiko]

fox is literally the hardest character to combo if you don't have an up-throw DESIGNED to **** them up

Maybe for you, or your character, but don't state something as a fact that isn't.

 

[Ripple]

Maybe for you, or your character, but don't state something as a fact that isn't.

Fox is also extremely easy for the cast to combo.

damn, I'll be sure to watch what I say next time

 

[Strong Badam]

fox is literally the hardest character to combo if you don't have an up-throw DESIGNED to **** them up

Most combo throws are designed to be good in general, not with any particular victim in mind. It just so happens the fastest fallers in the game are the most subject to vertical combos.
Some throws are so “good" that they don't combo spacies. See: Ganon Dthrow, toon link upthrow, Falcon upthrow, etc

 

[Ripple]

Most combo throws are designed to be good in general, not with any particular victim in mind. It just so happens the fastest fallers in the game are the most subject to vertical combos.
Some throws are so “good" that they don't combo spacies. See: Ganon Dthrow, toon link upthrow, Falcon upthrow, etc

I seem to remember you agreeing with me for the most part though. in this thread somewhere, you also state that fox/spacies is/are the hardest to combo character out there.

 

[Boiko]

Versus say Samus, or ROB, or Luigi? How could you say spacies are harder to combo?

 

[DMG]

Can't combo ROB, I dunno how he loses tourneys

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

cuz ya gotta get dmg from tech chases

 

[DMG]

cuz ya gotta get dmg from tech chases

Excuse me do you even ROB Dthrow

 

[mimgrim]

As a Toon Link main I do not find Fox (or the other 2 Spacies) easy to combo at all. I find it to be a major pain in the ass. Not only do the destroy us in neutral but are punish game on them is not very good either (at least not unil mid/mid-high percents and then it just becomes decent.

Stoopid animals.

 

[D e l t a]

Combos are really easy for me

 

[Boiko]

As a Toon Link main I do not find Fox (or the other 2 Spacies) easy to combo at all. I find it to be a major pain in the ***. Not only do the destroy us in neutral but are punish game on them is not very good either (at least not unil mid/mid-high percents and then it just becomes decent.

Stoopid animals.

I've seen DVD get some ballin combos on spacies.