Tier List Speculation

[D e l t a]

@ D e l t a please stop double posting. If you want to quote more than one person, copy/paste the quoting code. Next time will be an infraction, bud.

My b. Didn't know that :X thanks for letting me know

I also just realized I triple posted at one point. Sorry guys

 

[Rizner]

I main Kirby now, but I am nowhere near active enough mowadays and haven't actually gotten good with him yet. I need to duck more.

 

[D e l t a]

I main Kirby now, but I am nowhere near active enough mowadays and haven't actually gotten good with him yet. I need to duck more.

Iirc you and Tetra are both going to Shuffle VII. If you want to learn Kirby, she'll be there and is typically happy to help teach anybody about her kawaii mains

 

[ChiePet]

@ D e l t a please stop double posting. If you want to quote more than one person, copy/paste the quoting code. Next time will be an infraction, bud.

Simpler than that; just hit reply, go to the other post and hit reply; repeat untill all quotes wanted are in the text box, type, then BOOM.

Like I even needed to tell You that, though )

#KNOWLEDGEISPOWER

EDIT: also editing post keeps double posts from happening too, which is da bess.

 

[D e l t a]

Simpler than that; just hit reply, go to the other post and hit reply; repeat untill all quotes wanted are in the text box, type, then BOOM.

Like I even needed to tell You that, though )

#KNOWLEDGEISPOWER

EDIT: also editing post keeps double posts from happening too, which is da bess.

Actually I didn't know that lol. I'll keep that in mind. I thought you had to make separate posts then copy n paste or something. That makes my life so much easier now

 

[ChiePet]

When I look her up now and her recent matches. I mostly see Ness.

There's still Chip lol and does the Tetra have any videos from her recent tournaments?? I saw a video on her channel but it's kinda old so I wanna see how she plays currently

That's funny because she mostly has been using Kirby at the recent tourneys we've gone to. I know she uses Ness online more than Kirby, oddly enough. She's still the best Kirby in MI, and I'd go as far to say the best PM Kirby in the U.S.

Here you go;
http://gfycat.com/UnconsciousBlondBushbaby

 

[SpiderMad]

im nearly positive that backwards pikmin throw waveland isnt possible. would be cool if it was tho

im nearly positive its a 1 frame link at minimum

def harder than normal

I'm not sure what gives you trouble, you probly suck at early aerials. You can easily use debug menu to test stuff without having to be nearly positively wrong.

The "normal" window for SH Pikmin toss WL is huge like 3+ frames, B-turnaround and B-reverse both don't effect the window. B-turnaround starts the move the other way, which can be done on the very first airborne frame just like normal [holding control stick other way during jump-squat and pressing B the frame before leaving the ground]. B-reverse doesn't effect the timing it just switches your direction and momentum if it detects you have the control stick held towards the other way on the fifth frame of the move.

https://youtu.be/R3UbHAq4Tk0?t=2661
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nYWNayYVLo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRoJ7P-KyQU

 

[steelguttey]

yea i tested it today im just bad

i got it now, the timing is just weird cus sometimes you b reverse

 

[Rizner]

Iirc you and Tetra are both going to Shuffle VII. If you want to learn Kirby, she'll be there and is typically happy to help teach anybody about her kawaii mains

yep, and I already am planning on a mm with her.

 

[trash?]

Here you go;
http://gfycat.com/UnconsciousBlondBushbaby

shoutouts to upb grabbing the ledge from behind

I'm pretty sure you can option-select at least the first half of kirby's edgeguard attempts just b/c of that feature

 

[DrinkingFood]

That's not what option select means fyi

 

[Nausicaa]

No particular order within groupings:

Hype: Fox, Wolf, Roy, Sheik, ROB, Falcon, Lucario, Samus

(Not so) secret hype and/or kept down by THE FOX MAN: Tink, Diddy, Mewtwo, Ike, Yoshi, Marth, Lucas, others

Antimeta hero: D3

Maybe good, maybe not, currently unpopular because feels: Pit, MK, ZSS, Pika, Link, maybe others

I recover with an up-b tether, RIP: Ivy

Might be scary Soon™: ICs, Olimar

By kept down by the Fox/Man, you mean there's just some OP top-tier/common character/s that poop on them too much for them to break EVERYTHING, but they're still basically broken? Or what does that mean?

Or B) they're just as OP as the Hype but 'less' normally hyped because who the heck plays Mewtwo/Lucas/Diddy after the cheese was removed and people had to start learning the real characters? And who plays Yoshi at all, and Ike/Tink are brain-dead so nobody really bothers with talking about them, and Marth is just as obvs good ol' Marth?
I'll assume the latter.

Link is sad now? He really get hit that harder? From what? Tethers, Rang, and people learning to not jump into death?
When has Pika ever been anything OTHER than 'currently unpopular'?
Ivy and Oli still good but recovery is just a joke, right? Still good?

ZSS feels good, but I could see the feels thing. It's definitely not nearly as interesting of a character. Reverting the grab alone would re-apply the niche and counter-play heavy match-ups from both sides that she used to bring to the game. So normalized it hurts. I assume that's the 'not hype' stuff that gets people.

LOL @ Ooze anti-meta, makes sense. ICs fit that too, but wrong meta and stupider meta.


What about Puff?
What's the deal with the Puff? Anyone liking the thing, or she getting hated on still because 'wrong game' stuff?

Why do you see Zard as bad, out of curiosity?

Playing him against characters where it turns into a stupid game.
DK, for example, just turns into a game of locking down his DD-Grab and playing a specific way. D3, gotta go to him and get specific hits to make something of it, and hard to kill or do any Zardish stuff outside of combos on either of these 2.

Basically still feels linear and functional, but most of the things that 3.5 seems to have don't really help him when they help others in some ways. That pace-controlling stuff was never his problem from being 'great' the way it locked out Ike/ROB/Lucario/etc, the nerf to recoveries isn't something that he benefited from almost at all, things like that. Anyone who had a good recovery or good pace control had OTHER things that Zard needed to deal with, and those haven't changed. Speed that out-matches him, getting clipped into combos.
Neutral games that involved pace-control were never much of a problem since he was solid at covering himself while staying threatening. Meanwhile the neutral games that involved forcing him to take action or lose the neutral due to things that threatened him if he didn't... those are still around.
So the neutral game and punish game were hardly altered in ways that help him. Strong characters still strong, decent characters stronger, Zard was niche to start, and that niche just got a little harder. That was roughly at a first glance, but seems to hold more true the more I look at it.

 

[Gawain the Knight]

By kept down by the Fox/Man, you mean there's just some OP top-tier/common character/s that poop on them too much for them to break EVERYTHING, but they're still basically broken? Or what does that mean?

Or B) they're just as OP as the Hype but 'less' normally hyped because who the heck plays Mewtwo/Lucas/Diddy after the cheese was removed and people had to start learning the real characters? And who plays Yoshi at all, and Ike/Tink are brain-dead so nobody really bothers with talking about them,

How can you call ike and TLink braindead when Sheik is in the game?

 

[Gawain the Knight]

How can you call ike and TLink braindead when Sheik is in the game?

and To expand further on this while I believe certain characters require less thought , when you reach a high level of play being braindead isn't an option. If you're braindead during play you've got heavy habits that will be read and punished.

 

[D e l t a]

yep, and I already am planning on a mm with her.

Hypeee. I can't wait to see that!

Or B) they're just as OP as the Hype but 'less' normally hyped because who the heck plays Mewtwo/Lucas after the cheese was removed and people had to start learning the real characters? And who plays Yoshi at all?

................

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

The most brain-dead characters in PM right now are easily Roy, Ike, and Fox. Fox is the least cheese imo but he is still easy to play.

 

[steelguttey]

the young link melee main checks out lmao

if you think fox is easy then you dont really know how "easy" works

 

[Gawain the Knight]

The most brain-dead characters in PM right now are easily Roy, Ike, and Fox. Fox is the least cheese imo but he is still easy to play.

yOU GUYS REALIZE THAT IN EVERY FIGHTING GAME most characters have brain dead aspects?

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

yOU GUYS REALIZE THAT IN EVERY FIGHTING GAME most characters have brain dead aspects?

yES I REALIZED THANK YOU i didnt even notice

 

[Gawain the Knight]

Fox melee shine laser etc., sheik tilt and grab falco dair shine, marth u-throw spacies f throw floaties side b up tilt floaties, jiggs back air every where, ICs wobble(rythm game) falcon knee, peach turnip camp for a bit hope your opponent messes up(peach isn't really a good example compared to the others.

 

[D e l t a]

If you want to throw around brain dead Nairs as Fox go ahead. I'll just WD back and punish you every time. Like Gawain said, there's always "easy" aspects and moves that seem to require little thought process. If you get hit by these constantly spammed moves, then it's clearly not the opponent playing brain dead, it's yourself. Top players that use Ike / Tink / Fox / etc. are the best in their regions because they play smart in neutral with these characters.

 

[Gawain the Knight]

yES I REALIZED THANK YOU i didnt even notice

Mocking my accidental caps lock click, and sarcasm don't get us anywhere.

 

[AceGamer]

Ike is braindead you say?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui4AK9dPpZU

 

[D e l t a]

Ike is braindead you say?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui4AK9dPpZU

If we're quoting Lordy, then yeah. Definitely braindead :kappa:

 

[Jelinek]

Ike is braindead you say?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui4AK9dPpZU

Ike has one of the slickest movements I've seen. Been seeing a lot of Metroid play, gosh he's like the fox of ike lol

 

[InfinityCollision]

By kept down by the Fox/Man, you mean there's just some OP top-tier/common character/s that poop on them too much for them to break EVERYTHING, but they're still basically broken? Or what does that mean?

Or B) they're just as OP as the Hype but 'less' normally hyped because who the heck plays Mewtwo/Lucas/Diddy after the cheese was removed and people had to start learning the real characters? And who plays Yoshi at all, and Ike/Tink are brain-dead so nobody really bothers with talking about them, and Marth is just as obvs good ol' Marth?
I'll assume the latter.

The "not quite top tier" tier is largely a mix of characters that poop on nearly everyone except the top tiers and characters with underappreciated options/potential, with the occasional sprinkling of B. Sometimes a mix of the three.

Link is sad now? He really get hit that harder? From what? Tethers, Rang, and people learning to not jump into death?

That and bits of his kit got slowed down and/or knockback/damage reductions. I dunno if he's explicitly bad this patch but he doesn't feel like he's good (nor does he "feel good") so probably.

When has Pika ever been anything OTHER than 'currently unpopular'?

Pika nerfs made it worse, at least for a little while. Not sure what the head count looks like these days.

Ivy and Oli still good but recovery is just a joke, right? Still good?

Basically, yeah. Olimar's getting a jetpack so he'll probably be silly soon, we'll see what happens with Ivy.

ZSS... So normalized it hurts.

Yes. All I'm gonna say about that.

What about Puff?
What's the deal with the Puff?

Hbox won Forte 2 with Puff in early 3.5, aside from that she gets basically no noise because nobody plays her in PM. Last time I fought a Puff in PM it was a sandbagging Melee player in pools. You could say she's okay, which is to say she's not really okay because she holds her own but still loses a lot of matchups and the design's still wonky.

 

[mimgrim]

Tink are brain-dead so nobody really bothers with talking about them

Toon Link is sad.

Seriously though, lose the salt.

 

[Frost | Odds]

the young link melee main checks out lmao

if you think fox is easy then you dont really know how "easy" works

I can go fox at any time with no prior experience other than a small handful of casual games, and get results not totally dissimilar from those I'd get with my main, into whom I've dumped hundreds of hours of practice time.

If that's not easy, I don't know what is.

 

[steelguttey]

basically lots of people are gonna be complaining about olimar next patch. he sucks this patch cus his recovery is awful and he should never be getting back to stage @ Nausicaa

I can go fox at any time with no prior experience other than a small handful of casual games, and get results not totally dissimilar from those I'd get with my main, into whom I've dumped hundreds of hours of practice time.

If that's not easy, I don't know what is.

and i can do that with ganon, but you know what, your region sucks, even you think this. go to a major and play fox with no prior experience and see what happens. also, people fear fox way too much. you have to respect him but pm players come in and see that hes an untouchable top tier with no bad matchups and get spooked. you can beat fox, pm players dont realize this.

 

[G13_Flux]

The most brain-dead characters in PM right now are easily Roy, Ike, and Fox. Fox is the least cheese imo but he is still easy to play.

Roy is not brain dead. There's actually a lot of depth to the character that goes into getting around your opponents counter play tactics, as well as implementing more difficult tactics like landing his spike (for onstage and offstage use) as well as mixing in footstooling. He's got a lot of interesting and rewarding di mixups that result from high level, optimized gameplay. Since many of his approaches are beat by ccing, he needs to put a decent amount of thought into when and how hes going to approach. I'll give you that dtilt now is more powerful than it needs to be, and the hang time on recovery is kind of dumb, but those are getting fixed in 3.6. I think that roy is an extremely well designed character overall, and not brain dead.

Fox is also not easy to play. Idk where you're getting that from.

 

[Gawain the Knight]

Roy is not brain dead. There's actually a lot of depth to the character that goes into getting around your opponents counter play tactics, as well as implementing more difficult tactics like landing his spike (for onstage and offstage use) as well as mixing in footstooling. He's got a lot of interesting and rewarding di mixups that result from high level, optimized gameplay. Since many of his approaches are beat by ccing, he needs to put a decent amount of thought into when and how hes going to approach. I'll give you that dtilt now is more powerful than it needs to be, and the hang time on recovery is kind of dumb, but those are getting fixed in 3.6. I think that roy is an extremely well designed character overall, and not brain dead

There are no truly 'BrainDead' characters, it only seems that way at no high level play cause of lack of counter play, and/or bad MU experience.

 

[steelguttey]

in fact, calling any character brain dead in smash is kinda silly. no matter what character you play, di still exists, footsies still exist, matchups still exist. no character can turn the physics engine into marvel (inb4 lucario)

 

[InfinityCollision]

Relative comparisons exist too.

 

[Frost | Odds]

in fact, calling any character brain dead in smash is kinda silly. no matter what character you play, di still exists, footsies still exist, matchups still exist. no character can turn the physics engine into marvel (inb4 lucario)

Bowser is actually pretty braindead in a lot of matchups, though. Dash attack is literally the only important option in these cases.

 

[Gawain the Knight]

Bowser is actually pretty braindead in a lot of matchups, though. Dash attack is literally the only important option in these cases.

yeah but most of those MUs I assume are against campers, in which case it is a counter braindead option. Dash attack is also fairly punishable I believe.

 

[Boiko]

This is becoming really sad to read. Players arguing about which characters are more brain dead? What kind of argument is that and how does it contribute to tier list speculation?

If you think that being "brain dead" works at a top level, you're sorely mistaken.

 

[mimgrim]

This is becoming really sad to read. Players arguing about which characters are more brain dead? What kind of argument is that and how does it contribute to tier list speculation?

If you think that being "brain dead" works at a top level, you're sorely mistaken.

Relevant;

Seriously though, lose the salt.

(Not pointed at you Bokio. Pointed at the brain dead statements.)

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I eat local foxes and I'm really bad at this game

good melee players playing falcon sucks a bit more tho

 

[FreeGamer]

I'm happy for y'all and I'ma let you finish, but 2.1 Ike was the most braindead character of all time.

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ Boiko I guess it's inappropriate for this thread, but I figured it was worth pointing out that there's an awful lot of situations where Bowser can just dash attack, and it's very unambiguously the best option.

Having linear gameplay like this actually helps a lot at high level play, because it reduces the mental stress of having to make optimal option selections, and the player of the simpler character can focus more on reading the opponent and waiting for the next time that a dash attack/whatever opening appears. Having low tech skill requirements has a similar effect, and also helps reduce tournament fatigue.

These metagame advantages can mean that a 'friendlies' or 'money matches' tier list can theoretically look entirely different from a 'tournament' tier list, which takes into account things like player fatigue.

Bowser is one of the worst (bottom 10) characters in the game right now in terms of matchups, but IMO he's actually a pretty solid tournament character, provided you have a secondary to account for some of his more buttfrustrating matchups. I hypothesize that his metagame advantages (including stuff like scrubby opponents who don't know the MU) are why Bowser tends to overperform in bracket compared to the way his MU spread appears on paper and when tested between high level players.

just edited this post a dozen times, nbd. RIP mods

edit13: this is part of the reason I place Ganon so highly - between 8th-10th or so.