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Tier List Speculation

trash?

witty/pretty
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People just feel entitled to changes to whatever characters they like or dislike and like talking about that more than actually figuring the game out.
you keep missing my point entirely, so I'll make it more blunt:

the project m dev team set precedent for this discussion. you can say all you want that the metagame isn't your responsibility, but the development team pushed it there, intent is meaningless. basic common law dictates that when someone is top tier and does not fit a mold of "melee veteran" status, they are likely to get nerfed... so in a tier discussion that often focuses on top tiers, the topic will be brought up. to try and imply that nerf discussions are unreasonable is a flat-out ignorance.

a consistent philosophy of balance would stop this argument, because a consistent philosophy of balance would ensure all characters follow the same guidelines. this is a criticism as old as time, and yet the PMDT seems to always misinterpret it.
 
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InfinityCollision

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Yoshi is really good, I think top 15ish. sheild effectively having 6 frames of start up is horrible though, because parry is busted which hold yoshi back a bit. Yoshi is sleeper god tier, in a more tangeble way than say, Luigi/squirtman are.
I can agree with that. Yoshi with his current kit intact and functional parrying would be terrifying and even now he's pretty good, though the bugs with his initial shield animation (beyond simply being unable to parry) are kind of a downer.
 

DrinkingFood

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ya'know ROB beats fox and roy goes even with fox and maybe even DDD goes even with fox
It's not like you people have to play fox
yes we know the game is still somewhat centralized about him
and PMDT knows it too
literally like 4/5 mediocre players here wasting megabytes talking about something that's been done to death and is already known by all the good players who have respected opinions or are on the PMDT and already aware of it
so like
that's the point I think? Why talk about it STILL
 

trash?

witty/pretty
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and, historically, ROB and roy are not lasting in their current form by the time we all get to 4.0

again, I'm pointing out that this conversation is inevitable when the precedent is set. maybe, if you don't want the conversation to pop up again, someone should break the precedent
 
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Hylian

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you keep missing my point entirely, so I'll make it more blunt:

the project m dev team set precedent for this discussion. you can say all you want that the metagame isn't your responsibility, but the development team pushed it there, intent is meaningless. basic common law dictates that when someone is top tier and does not fit a mold of "melee veteran" status, they are likely to get nerfed... so in a tier discussion that often focuses on top tiers, the topic will be brought up. to try and imply that nerf discussions are unreasonable is a flat-out ignorance.

a consistent philosophy of balance would stop this argument, because a consistent code of balance would ensure all characters follow the same guidelines. this is a criticism as old as time, and yet the PMDT seems to always misinterpret it.

Mmm and please tell me this magical consistent code of balance that exists somewhere in the universe for a game with 40+ characters. Please. Is this the fabled Holy Grail? I think you are naive and don't understand much about balancing a game while keeping a casual and competitive playerbase interested in it while also working with limitations. You know what company gets praised for it's balance by everyone? Me either, because that company doesn't exist. People don't really grasp how difficult balance is, especially in a team with many unique minds that have different viewpoints. If 20 people think shine shouldn't be jump cancelled and 20 people think it should(completely random hypothetical discussion)..what do you do? You discuss...and discuss..and argue..and debate...and discuss.. Now imagine this for 10+ things on every character for a cast of 40+. This is what companies deal with when balancing competitive games. It's tough ****. It's a criticism as old as time because it's a criticism that will never be fulfilled by any developer. You can't make everyone happy. You can't achieve perfect balance.
 

JustSomeScrub

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...Oops..you caught me. I think fox is the best character in the game, so obviously if you are trying to play 100% optimally you will play him yes.

...

Your point?

I don't know how many more times you can miss mine. Most of my post has nothing to do with fox or any specific character.
Is your point not that people shouldn't care about potential nerfs and only focus and discuss the characters as they are now?

My point is why should people do this when historically, non-Melee top tiers have been prone to drastic nerfs and changes?

You more of all people should realize in a competitive game people are going to discuss relevant characters the most.
 

trash?

witty/pretty
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You can't achieve perfect balance.
you can, however, make it even remotely non-biased.

I don't intend to respond to the rest, because whoever you're arguing with, I'm pretty sure does not actually exist, because it certainly isn't towards me. please, misinterpret everything I say more
 
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JustSomeScrub

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Mmm and please tell me this magical consistent code of balance that exists somewhere in the universe for a game with 40+ characters.
What do you mean there hasn't been a consistent code of balance?

Melee top tier characters by large have consistently been left alone.

That's quite literally our entire point. The way you guys do balance encourages people to stick to these vets because going for anyone else is a huge risk that might not pay off in the long run and usually doesn't.
 
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Hylian

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you can, however, make it even remotely non-biased.

please, misinterpret everything I say more

I don't really think you can make it non-biased unless you took competitive players out of the development team entirely.

Maybe..just maybe..few changes were made to melee characters that were already viable because we have many years of experience to look at and understand how that characters works, where much more testing was needed on newer characters and ones that weren't viable leading to massive tweaking? Maybe. Maybe...this game grew successful based on a lot of peoples want to play a melee with new match-ups...just maybe. Just maybe there are really important things to consider that aren't about balance. Who knows what will happen in the end? You can be sure it's been discussed 1000x more by the PMDT than it has in this thread though. I'm not sure why you think we are blind towards the melee bias, or have no reasons for having limited changes to melee characters. Nothing is final until the gold version, nothing is safe, no matter what precedences or patterns you try to find. Complain all you want until then I guess.
 

trash?

witty/pretty
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so you respond to me pointing out you're arguing to nothing by... arguing to more nothing, I guess?

alright, you enjoy yourself, then. yeesh, didn't think "either everyone gets to be like fox or fox has to be like everyone else" would set people off THAT hard
 
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JustSomeScrub

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I don't really think you can make it non-biased unless you took competitive players out of the development team entirely.

Maybe..just maybe..few changes were made to melee characters that were already viable because we have many years of experience to look at and understand how that characters works, where much more testing was needed on newer characters and ones that weren't viable leading to massive tweaking? Maybe. Maybe...this game grew successful based on a lot of peoples want to play a melee with new match-ups...just maybe. Just maybe there are really important things to consider that aren't about balance. Who knows what will happen in the end? You can be sure it's been discussed 1000x more by the PMDT than it has in this thread though. I'm not sure why you think we are blind towards the melee bias, or have no reasons for having limited changes to melee characters. Nothing is final until the gold version, nothing is safe, no matter what precedences or patterns you try to find. Complain all you want until then I guess.
So tell us the valid reasons for the Melee bias and limited changes to the Melee characters.

I'm listening.

And "because a lot of players were coming from Melee" is not a valid reason if your goal is balance. Though from this post it looks like it isn't. In which case everything makes much more sense now.
 

Hylian

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I'm afraid I cannot disclose that information, sorry. Nothing is set in stone, and I have no authority to leak our plans with the game or discussions about it. Maybe after gold release :p.
 

JustSomeScrub

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I mean imagine if during Smash 4 development Nintendo/Namco went "Well MK is clearly OP in Brawl...most of our fanbase is coming from Brawl, so let's keep him largely the same".

...that sounds incredibly absurd even in words. There's either more to it you are not telling us or the Melee bias is even greater than I thought.

Also I have been following recent PM streams. They've been getting fewer numbers than before. I think the main reasons are Nintendo/Gimr dropping support but I also think it's because it's becoming more and more "just like Melee" . And while catering to Melee fanatics may be your goal, just keep in mind most of these same people don't care much for PM and only play it as a secondary because it's there.

I mean shouldn't a game reward its loyalists moreso than those coming from another game? You guys will nerf the Brawl character loyalists who are most dedicated to the game but insert ____ Melee top player here who just enters a tourny and wins it with Fox/Falco is rewarded for not giving a crap?

Your decisions baffle me and I'm clearly not the only one.
 

trash?

witty/pretty
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I'm afraid I cannot disclose that information, sorry. Nothing is set in stone, and I have no authority to leak our plans with the game or discussions about it. Maybe after gold release :p.
...the vague implication that how you balance right now isn't how you balance later actually fills in a bit of the gaps that confused me, I think.

...I suppose that's an interesting long-term plan, but then I wouldn't know if it works out greatly until that gold release, and if that gold release stacks up by comparison to the otherwise kind-of-unruly meta that is here currently? because, in theory, if the gold release is still messy, then it was all kinda for naught, I suppose

if what I assume is correct at all, anyhow.
 
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JustSomeScrub

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Going back to Ultra Street Fighter 4, Capcom is actually much more transparent with their plans than the PMDT lol. Before Ultra's release they had loads of videos up explaining system and character changes and it was based off community feedback as well.
 

Diego Brando

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I mean imagine if during Smash 4 development Nintendo/Namco went "Well MK is clearly OP in Brawl...most of our fanbase is coming from Brawl, so let's keep him largely the same".

...that sounds incredibly absurd even in words. There's either more to it you are not telling us or the Melee bias is even greater than I thought.

Also I have been following recent PM streams. They've been getting fewer numbers than before. I think the main reasons are Nintendo/Gimr dropping support but I also think it's because it's becoming more and more "just like Melee" . And while catering to Melee fanatics may be your goal, just keep in mind most of these same people don't care much for PM and only play it as a secondary because it's there.

I mean shouldn't a game reward its loyalists moreso than those coming from another game? You guys will nerf the Brawl character loyalists who are most dedicated to the game but insert ____ Melee top player here who just enters a tourny and wins it with Fox/Falco is rewarded for not giving a crap?

Your decisions baffle me and I'm clearly not the only one.
Aftershock top 8:
1. Sethlon (Roy)
2. Junebug (DIddy, Ganon)
3. IPK (Lucario)
4. Axe (Marth, Pikachu)
5. Lunchables (Toon Link, Roy)
5. HeroofTime (Link)
7. Dizzy (Marth)
7. Luck (Diddy)

Sandstorm top 8:
1/2. Hbox (Jiggs)
1/2. Westballz (Falco, Fox)
3. Axe (Pikachu, Marth)
4. Silly Kyle (Peach)
5. Machiavelli (Ivy)
5. Oksas (Wolf)
7. IPK (Lucario
7. 2JAr (Luigi)

NWM7 top 8:
1. Chillin (Wolf)
2. BigD (Dedede, ICs)
3. Odds (Bowser)
4. Hungry Headcrab (Ganon)
5. Aki (Ness)
5. Bladewise (Peach, I cant remember if he played anyone else)
7. Pewpewu (Marth, Kinda roy)
7. Sfat (Fox)

I understand what you're saying, and I agree that fox is somewhat over centralizing at the moment and deserves nerfs, as do a few of the other melee top tiers, to a lesser extent. He hasn't won any of the latest Major PM tournaments, the last one being m2k at paragon back in January. The only tournament that even had more Melee top tiers than PM characters in top 8 was Sandstorm.
 
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DMG

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Balancing SF would be hella easy. I could even add flair if I was a dev

Zangief patch notes: New taunt has Zangief reach under the ring and pull out ladders and tables. He has been converted to WWE wrestling.

Alt skin: Marvel Juggernaut

See I already made a better SF game than Capcom, what a joke
 

ChiePet

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[In this thread, one salty kid lost to Peach and goes off; Opinions and Shots fired]
-Pops Celebratory Champagne-
WE DID IT, GUYS!! Peach finally being recognized as Good once again!~

No but really;
Jesus, what happened.
Discuss interesting things, like G&W's Bad MUs, Or where the f*** PM3.6 is
#BringItHomeBoys
 

JustSomeScrub

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Aftershock top 8:
1. Sethlon (Roy)
2. Junebug (DIddy, Ganon)
3. IPK (Lucario)
4. Axe (Marth, Pikachu)
5. Lunchables (Toon Link, Roy)
5. HeroofTime (Link)
7. Dizzy (Marth)
7. Luck (Diddy)

Sandstorm top 8:
1/2. Hbox (Jiggs)
1/2. Westballz (Falco, Fox)
3. Axe (Pikachu, Marth)
4. Silly Kyle (Peach)
5. Machiavelli (Ivy)
5. Oksas (Wolf)
7. IPK (Lucario
7. 2JAr (Luigi)

NWM7 top 8:
1. Chillin (Wolf)
2. BigD (Dedede, ICs)
3. Odds (Bowser)
4. Hungry Headcrab (Ganon)
5. Aki (Ness)
5. Bladewise (Peach, I cant remember if he played anyone else)
7. Pewpewu (Marth, Kinda roy)
7. Sfat (Fox)

I understand what you're saying, and I agree that fox is somewhat over centralizing at the moment and deserves nerfs, as do a few of the other melee top tiers, to a lesser extent. He hasn't won any of the latest Major PM tournaments, the last one being m2k at paragon back in January. The only tournament that even had more Melee top tiers than PM characters in top 8 was Sandstorm.
Armada won the Canadian major with Fox which was definitely after January and Mango the Sweden one with Falco. NVM7 wasn't exactly stacked, it's an FGC event that had some Smash folks show up.

At any rate as I've said right now I feel Brawl characters are viable. But who's to say they won't nerf characters like Wolf and Diddy (even further) by next patch? It's happened before.
 
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ChiePet

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I apologize, I'm impatient for the Gold Release of PM, like sooo bad.

People, THAT VERSION is where you will develop concrete metagame and more.

We kinda forget that 3.5 was once a long time ago 2.0 :/ Any version not the Gold Release is still a Test/Beta build and people like what they find in test builds, but much like Persona, Blazblue, MeltyBlood, and so on; These versions help define this game.

Don't lose inspiration yet, guys.


Also dont nerf peach i swear to god. If 3.6 rolls around and the unchanged princess has some beyond pm-whining change i will explode. Lol.
 

Diego Brando

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Armada won the Canadian major with Fox which was definitely after January and Mango the Sweden one with Falco. NVM7 wasn't exactly stacked, it's an FGC event that had some Smash folks show up.

At any rate as I've said right now I feel Brawl characters are viable. But who's to say they won't nerf characters like Wolf and Diddy (even further) by next patch? It's happened before.
I don't understand how you can count McSmashter 4 but not NWM7, when McSmashter had ally and that was pretty much it as far as top PM players went. Though it was in Febuary, so you're correct there. Mango won Beast 5 in January.

The main point was that no random top melee player can just enter a tournament and stomp his way through. The only ones that have even done it in the past are the melee gods, Who aren't some random top players, it's the 5-6 best players in the world.

Who's to say they won't nerf any of the melee top tiers though? They've already made small changes to a few.
 
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Player-3

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just ban fox from all future PM tourneys imo that way they can't ruin our game with this abomination of a character!!
 
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AceGamer

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Ok well before we got into this whole melee bias debate I remember someone asking which characters people think are closest to being fully balanced. I don't know everyone in deep enough detail to be able to judge truly but I can say that the fire emblem boys are pretty close to being balanced, along with maybe :diddy::wario::lucas::sonic::kirby2::luigi2::mewtwopm::mario2:. Everyone else is gonna need some work, with varying degrees of how much work is needed
 
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Rizner

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Talking to melee players about melee is a lot more fun than talking to pm players about pm. I miss the passion and love for the game, and am sick of the constant complaining the pm stems from the fact that there are balance patches. Really cannot wait till we are done with changes, I will enjoy the community so much more. People focus more on what should and shouldn't be changed rather than the actual game itself it seems and that makes me sad.
I think it happens more after a patch is announced and before it's released. At least in local conversations and trying to play around here, that's the vibe I've gotten since the 3.6 trailer.
 

Searing_Sorrow

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3 pages worth of melee hate wow, new record. Though seriously I can see how some aggravation can come around when discussing pm. 3.5 came out in mid november, and diddy and olimar got hit by what many would consider a massive nerf . The kit changed so drastically that the Aa-Az excel page nerd kit on just throw chains alone became completely useless.

But instead of just picking fox, I put back 100's of hours worth of labbing and found 3.5 diddy doesn't suck. (Dropped Olimar cause... you know why.) Then not even into April, and 3.6 confirmed. Barely enough time to scrape the potential of 1 character, and another patch, which given history, has the potential to completely decimate 500+ hours of invested time.

Yes fox is a ***** to deal with in pm, but a lot of that is because his core game play has remained intact for 12+ years. No one can definitively say a character's m.u or limits (-olimar I mean seriously just why) based on 4-5 months of adaptation to a roster of 41 with 33 characters' kits constantly being tweaked.

I appreciate the (reminding everyone being rude while speaking to the dev team,) "FREE" work and effort put into the game that is not even finished being refined. Many add onS and features have been perfect for practice such as permashield in training mode and flashing l cancels, I am just part of that rare few that would like time to adapt and polish my play before tier diving to melee characters for their as of now more stabile and subtle tweaks.
 
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The Baron

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Uhhh, hypothetical and possibly loaded question. What would everyone do if a dev came out and said that 3.6 will be the so called gold edition, and any more patches after will just be aesthetic? Would you continue to play and try to develop the metagame with your character (s) or just go to fox or whoever is the best and never look back ? And if said character is mewtwo level godly will you pester the development team for nerfs or try to find ways around it, knowing that the device team won't touch anything balance again? Would just go back to melee at that point? Again, this question is probably pretty loaded but I would like opinions none the less.
 

DMG

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Might as well call that post a Steakhouse Baked Potato, cause god damn it's loaded
 

Frost | Odds

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Friendly reminder that the game is necessarily less balanced than it appears because of how radically undeveloped most characters' metas are. When people start taking their characters to the next level and actually incorporating all of the PM and Melee tech and great fundamentals, larger differences will start to occur. This is why I think Ganon is underrated: he lacks technical players in the same way that Bowser does - and I've gotten a lot of comments from people who couldn't believe Bowser could be played as quickly as I demonstrated (even though my play is still incredibly sloppy).

It's not a phenomenon unique to Bowser, we just gotta dig harder.
 

Searing_Sorrow

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Uhhh, hypothetical and possibly loaded question. What would everyone do if a dev came out and said that 3.6 will be the so called gold edition, and any more patches after will just be aesthetic? Would you continue to play and try to develop the metagame with your character (s) or just go to fox or whoever is the best and never look back ? And if said character is mewtwo level godly will you pester the development team for nerfs or try to find ways around it, knowing that the device team won't touch anything balance again? Would just go back to melee at that point? Again, this question is probably pretty loaded but I would like opinions none the less.
The same thing I did in melee, maximize counter play, and when that failed, choose falco on occassion.
If a character is mk bad, banning may go into consideration but hopefully no one is that polarizing.

Another issue that I am running into is setting large scale pm tourneys, example pm dev states 3.6 will come out in time, so between Mar 29th - infinity. In order to pull in the more influential players, more notice time is optimal, so planning for an event in mid june has already begun. If the same thing happens that occurred 3.0 - 3.5, the tourney will happen too short of a time after the release of the update to go to new version, and tourney player drops tend to happen cause interest is lost in an obsolete beta version.

Since patch note typos exist, and red font on your fave character tends to anger players without seeing it in play, it would be nice if release was closer to annocement date.
 

The Baron

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Might as well call that post a Steakhouse Baked Potato, cause god damn it's loaded
I'm using this and yeah, as I was typing I figured it was but I figured that there would be some who'd suprise us and pick a much radically different answer than what was expected. I figure everyone understands the gist of the point I'm trying to make but I felt it needed asking. As trash and others pointed out, alot of us who are playing and critiquing love this game, but our fear of our favorite character nerfed prevents us from really wanting to get too invested into it. I admit that when chillin won nwm, I figured that now wolf would get the bat and all that practice I was doing, attempting to get better would go nowhere fast. But I also found that even if it did, I'd probably keep playing this game and wolf. And I'm sure others feel the same and really just want closure that when patch day rolls out, their mains aren't getting hit. Especially, in their own biased opinion, if it wasn't justified and if the so called real problem character wasn't hit or hit enough.
The same thing I did in melee, maximize counter play, and when that failed, choose falco on occassion.

Another issue that I am running into is setting large scale pm tourneys, example pm dev states 3.6 will come out in time, so between Mar 29th - infinity. In order to pull in the more influential players, more notice time is optimal, so planning for an event in mid june has already begun. If the same thing happens that occurred 3.0 - 3.5, the tourney will happen too short of a time after the release of the update to go to new version, and tourney player drops tend to happen cause interest is lost in an obsolete beta version.

Since patch note typos exist, and red font on your fave character tends to anger players without seeing it in play, it would be nice if release was closer to annocement date.
also this. Did not even consider the tourney aspect of it but now I'm glad this is here
 

steelguttey

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I feel like it's not being stated enough how wildly underrated Ganon is at the moment. I think maybe top 5. Maybe top 3.

Might pick him up instead of Ivy for a while and see what happens. I've always intuited that he's just a vastly better character than Bowser, but never really set out to prove it.
nononononono



ganon has good ****, but tier lists are all matchups and he loses to bowser and ****ing olimar

top 3 my flacid weiner
 

steelguttey

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i recall you saying its bowsers best matchup, my b

anyway yea ganon is ****ing easy lmao

perfect combo weight, approach options get stuffed by pivot grab, has super slow options of getting pikmin off him etc

i just cant see ganon winning all that many matchups
 

Foo

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@ Hylian Hylian I understand where you are coming from, but what did you expect? In a game that can be changed people are going to talk about changing it. That's just kinda the way it works. It's not like people are avoiding talking about the stuff you want them too because of it, they are just also talking about balance. Also, I hope you can understand the frustration. If you dedicate a ton of time to learning a brawl character and getting really good at them only for a new patch to role out and then, out of nowhere, your character players completely different and worse. Before, your character had a few problem matchups but was completely doable. This patch, half the problem matchups were melee character who were untouched so those matchups are now super hard.

Meanwhile everyone who played melee is completely unaffected by the nerfs and previously underwhelming players placing around middle are now topping. After a few months, suddenly every bracket I play is basically a melee bracket. One tourney if I won all my games, this would have been my bracket. Underlined are matches I didn't play. Falco-Marth-Marth-Fox-Sheik-Marth-Falcon. It's really frustrating, I hope you can understand that. Where PM brackets I played in used to be filled almost entirely with a different character for each player, now it's basically a mirror of the melee bracket at said tournament with a few PM exclusive sheik's, a Fox, and the occasionally non melee top tier like myself. That withered away at my passion for PM. It's so depressing to have all of your broken tools taken away (and everyone says you should be grateful to have a pseudo tech chase throw) only for all the falcon's to be like "lawl upthrow knee get outplayed," all the foxes to be like "lawl shine upsmash outplayed," the marths to be like "lawl, you didn't space that bair perfectly you died at 50%" and the shieks to be like "lawl chaingrabbed to death get rekt"


Also, at whomever said something about only Fox, falcon and mk being good against sonic. ZSS also seems to do pretty well against sonic because of blaster. If you can disrupt his dash dance and make him approach, you do pretty well. But yeah, sonic is pretty solo mainable. He doesn't beat a lot of people but doesn't have any impossible matchups or anything.


@ Frost | Odds Frost | Odds

Idk dude. Falcon has ganons punish game but just kinda better with speed and an insanely good neutral. Only thing I can see ganon doing a little better is edgeguarding and sorta recovery.
 
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TheGravyTrain

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I went to sleep, and woke up 3 pages later...

Also, Hylian or Strongbad made a comment about this not being the Balance Discussion Thread. Could that totally happen (either to this thread or a new one) and have the other be about pushing the metagame? Wishful thinking on my part, but it could work. Or everyone could keep complaining about Fox in both threads and nothing would change.
 

jtm94

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I agree Bowser loses to Ganon and that Ganon is better. The biggest difference is that I think Bowser can handle spacies better. I know several weird people, mainly melee players in our region that think Ganon is top 10. I think Ganon is honestly absurd right now and has been for a while. People overrate how bad his neutral game is, it isn't like he has slow options. Conversely people underrate how good Sonic's neutral game is and how noninteractive/good at escaping disadvantaged positioning he is. Being able to choose when you attack and controlling the pace of the game without being cornered is pretty good.

This thread would be fine if people stopped memeposting or posting one-liners that contribute nothing like DMG. How do these people make such useless posts in here without getting a warning is beyond me.

Also people talking about talking about other things like balance in here.... Strong Bad didn't post what he did to further derail the thread, it was supposed to put us back on track. At least post something about MUs in your wall of text.
 
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FreeGamer

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What's the consensus on Kirby? From my scrubby perspective, his MU spread leaves much to be desired after losing his 3.02 jank. ._.
 

CORY

wut
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with ganon's neutral, it's less about him lacking quick options (you have nair and uair at frame 10 and 11, respectively; dash attack is surprisingly good; you have solid spacing options with your aerials and you can also do silly float shenanigans to suss people out somewhat) and more about commitments you have to make. his least committal options are probably ac nair and full jump float.

if you ac nair and don't hit a shield, you can still just be outright dash dance baited into stuff. it's not terrible, but ganon isn't that quick so it's hard to use it to pressure someone with their full options available. this wouldn't be so bad, in and of itself, except his other neutral options still don't let you get much outside of harder reads.

full jump float is nice, but if you get called on it, you can't back out of it quickly (14 frames of float commitment,iirc, before an aerial can start). cancelling it by pressing down still has a commitment period (also 14 frames, iirc). you can dj out of it at any point, but if you get hit by someone going after your float, when you dj'd...

otherwise, you get things that are tricksy, but not that solid. sh-bair-wl in or out (or uair-wl), dash attack, dacus. spacing fair can be safe, but if it's shielded you still can't always reliably followup on it, and that can also be dd baited by the quicker characters. basically, most of ganon's options are high commitment, and you can space them to be rather safe, but his safe spacing puts you in a situation where you're not necessarily able to capitalize on the opponent, if they decide to retreat and reset.

that also wouldn't be so bad, because they're going to give up stage control, but the whole commitment thing means that you don't have a good way to just stop someone from guessing your option and going over/under you as you do it.

if his punish game was actually unique to him (i.e. fox wasn't able to bait out someone and punish into high damage combo into reset into usmash/shine gimp; etc....) this would work out well, because when ganon does touch you, you tend to take about 40% in 3 hits and you're now probably also in a bad spot, stage control wise. but, in this meta, good punish games aren't the important aspect of a character. getting to use your punish game is what matters more, so ganon having a hypothetical 10/10 punish doesn't matter if his neutral sits at around 4 or 5 and you have better characters with a 7 or 8 punish game that have 7 or 8 neutrals to back them up.

i'm also not trying to sweep away ganon's strengths. he does A LOT of damage very quickly (especially damage per attack), he has really good non-disjointed range, and is a beastly edgeguarder, especially now that he has float. but those aren't severely important traits to have in this meta. basically, if you can outplay your opponents, ganon looks like a god, because you always take the right option and they take 50% in 3 hits and probably die. it doesn't always work out that way, though, and ganon lacks tools to make the opponent take actions that he can capitalize on easily.

i guess the tl;dr is: ganon's strengths are there and they're very potent, but they aren't unique to him and the best parts about ganon aren't important to meta success; and his weaknesses are what's important to meta success.
 

Frost | Odds

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What's the consensus on Kirby? From my scrubby perspective, his MU spread leaves much to be desired after losing his 3.02 jank. ._.
To me at the moment he feels really amazing against bad players, and really mediocre against good players. I'm not a great Kirby, but he just seems to get zoned/outranged really hard in a lot of MUs.

Probably better than I'm giving him credit for, but eh.
 
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