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Tier List Speculation

Jandlebars

Still fallin'!
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Brawl models make people think the craziest things. Sveet is convinced Fox's upB doesn't go as far as Melee, as if he needed a bigger recovery lol.
I don't play as Fox in any serious form at all, but Fox's recovery almost looks like it's 50% bigger in P:M in contrast to what it was in Melee. I'll take the dev's word for it, though.

In regards to the character survey, I'd also like an N/A option, since I don't play against a good few characters on the presented list, and as such don't have much in the way of experience with them. If the survey's only really for those who play in tournaments, though, then I guess my input is moot, anyway. I've yet to attend a tournament at all. >__>
 

Tero.

Smash Champion
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Messages
2,686
I don't play as Fox in any serious form at all, but Fox's recovery almost looks like it's 50% bigger in P:M in contrast to what it was in Melee. I'll take the dev's word for it, though.

In regards to the character survey, I'd also like an N/A option, since I don't play against a good few characters on the presented list, and as such don't have much in the way of experience with them. If the survey's only really for those who play in tournaments, though, then I guess my input is moot, anyway. I've yet to attend a tournament at all. >__>
iirc Australia has PAL and Project M uses the length of Fox UpB in NTSC so in your case it actually is longer in NTSC
 

trash?

witty/pretty
Premium
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vancouver bc
NNID
????
  1. Fox 5.83582089552239 (=)
  2. Falco 5.77611940298507 (=)
  3. Shiek 5.35820895522388 (=)
  4. Sonic 5.25373134328358 (=)
  5. Peach 5.04477611940298 (=)
  6. Marth 4.95522388059702 (=)
  7. Mario 4.74626865671642 (+1)
  8. Wolf 4.62686567164179 (-1)
  9. Pit 4.56716417910448 (=)
  10. Bowser 4.34328358208955 (+2)
  11. Diddy Kong 4.32835820895522 (=)
  12. Wario 4.25373134328358 (-2)
  13. Jigglypuff 4.04477611940298 (+1)
  14. Captain Falcon 4.02985074626866 (+2)
  15. Snake 4.01492537313433 (=)
  16. Donkey Kong 4 (-3)
  17. Ike 3.92537313432836 (+2)
  18. Lucario 3.92537313432836 (=)
  19. Link 3.7910447761194 (+1)
  20. Charizard 3.77611940298507 (-3)
  21. Ganondorf 3.64179104477612 (=)
  22. Zelda 3.50746268656716 (+1)
  23. Lucas 3.43283582089552 (-1)
  24. Toon Link 3.37313432835821 (+1)
  25. Zero Suit Samus 3.29850746268657 (=)
  26. ROB 3.22388059701493 (=)
  27. Pikachu 3.1044776119403 (=)
  28. Ivysaur 3.04477611940298 (=)
  29. Ness 2.83582089552239 (+1)
  30. Luigi 2.77611940298507 (-1)
  31. Mr. Game & Watch 2.67164179104478 (=)
  32. King Dedede 2.43283582089552 (=)
  33. Squirtle 2.38095238095238 (=)
Taken from 67 votes, which ranked each character from 1 through 6, with 6 being the best.

You can view the complete statistics here.

I'm going to stop this survey here, since it's the end of the month. I'll make another one around mid-may.
 

B.W.

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
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I think I agree with most of that list.

I definitely disagree on T.Link and I would say Luigi is better than Pikachu but meh. For the most part definitely agreeable.
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
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I think DK's better than 16th. Dunno exactly where I'd put him though.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
TL is relatively bad. He has options, they just aren't that crazy. Killing people with him takes some actual work compared to most good characters lol.

Strong Bad: DK would be over like Snake and Diddy. So basically like 13th.

ZSS can sometimes do some good things, sometimes. I keep getting her a ton on random, I actually like her and would consider playing her in tournament. People just need to find the optimal punishes for the character, because people, I think, incorrectly believe her strings are 1-2 hit only most of the time, or too much Dair/Grabbing is going on. Usmash is ****in godly unless you can consistently SDI through it, and she's a nightmare for a lot of characters to land against. Anyone floaty is not going to have fun with a good ZSS as time goes on imo.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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I was just wondering why Squirtle is at the very bottom of the tiers. Before I get into what I mean, allow me to first put out there that I have been playing for years, and I have watched MANY videos of the tournament masters.

My brother and I found out, through years of play, literally EVERY advanced technique in the game, except the wavedash, which we stumbled upon, but wrote off as simply hilarious. I was surprised to find that all the wacky observations we have encountered and adapted are actually defined in the glossary in the sticky topic in the Melee Discussion forum! Three of the particularly surprising terms that I could not believe had been widely known and utilized were the Phantom Hit (I just thought I had a glitchy game) and that effect where recovering at the right time from attacks that sent you flying results in an upward boost if you jump out/air dodge/whatever early enough (I cannot remember what it was called in the sticky), and the waveland.

Now, I have been using Squirtle against my brother lately, and he cannot seem to beat me. We think we know why, and we think it puts Squirtle at the top of the tiers. I will be brief. Squirtle has his air backward. We call it 'The Tail.' It has that special hitbox like a sword, hence it goes right through anything except an attack with that same type of hitbox. It does 12% max, is relatively fast executing, has basically instant recovery on a barrier cancel, and is quite massive, killing at rather low percentages.

If he misses, he can just do his dsmash if the opponent tries to retaliate, or shield/roll. I am telling you, Squirtle is a crazy meat mountain who crushes bones with many attacks doing 15+%, survives to insane damages thanks to his wall cling, and has ridiculous horizontal recovery (Withdraw, Double Jump, Wall Cling, Wall Jump, ANOTHER Wall Cling, ARE YOU SERIOUS, Wall Jump, Up B).

Next, check his wavedash. It goes like half screen. It makes him rather fast, nearly eliminating his speed problem on the ground, and a great character when it comes to the defensive game. It pretty much eliminates the need for his dash, which, with Squirtle, who needs to do most of his attacking from hops, is pretty much useless already unless you are looking to smash attack. Wavesmashing, however, in my opinion, is also a bad idea, because, in the time and damage it takes you to actually land a smash, you could have just used The Tail and killed you opponent by then.

Even though he has to fight mostly in the air, 3 of his 4 air attacks are pretty fast, and are quite massive. A major advantage he has is that nearly all his attacks move the opponent considerably, and can topple him from 0%, so his opponent gets little to no counterattack opportunity.

The only explanation I can find for why he is low on the tiers is that no one has used him seriously. I think he really keeps up, if not tops, the top tier characters.

I really do not like to simply shoot my mouth, and I am not one who thinks it right to shower a character in encomium, and never actually prove anything. Is there online for this somewhere, or is that simply wishful thinking? If not, please do not yell at me and stuff until you at least check out The Tail. Goes right through projectiles, goes right through attacks, goes right through faces. Please just give Squirtle another shot and tell me what you thnk.

Final Comment: People have a tendency to think that posts from newcomers to a board but veterans of its respective game are saying they are better than everyone else, regardles of what the post actually says. Please note that I did not say 'I am better than you' or 'Squirtle is better than Fox.' I said, essentially: 'Squirtle seems to be great. These are his strengths. He may top Fox. Check him out and see if you agree.' I will say, however, that I am a full master of Squirtle.

Please give Squirtle a second look before responding so you know where I am coming from!
 

Jolteon

I'm sharpening my knife, kupo.
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TL is relatively bad. He has options, they just aren't that crazy. Killing people with him takes some actual work compared to most good characters lol.

Strong Bad: DK would be over like Snake and Diddy. So basically like 13th.

ZSS can sometimes do some good things, sometimes. I keep getting her a ton on random, I actually like her and would consider playing her in tournament. People just need to find the optimal punishes for the character, because people, I think, incorrectly believe her strings are 1-2 hit only most of the time, or too much Dair/Grabbing is going on. Usmash is ****in godly unless you can consistently SDI through it, and she's a nightmare for a lot of characters to land against. Anyone floaty is not going to have fun with a good ZSS as time goes on imo.
I disagree, I find that he's one of the easier character to kill with. He has a ton of set-ups that lead into killing moves/reliable edge guards. The fact that he has both solid vertical and horizontal killing options is also great, it makes his killing options more versatile depending on what character you are facing.

bones: I approve.
 

B.W.

Smash Champion
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I disagree, I find that he's one of the easier character to kill with. He has a ton of set-ups that lead into killing moves/reliable edge guards. The fact that he has both solid vertical and horizontal killing options is also great, it makes his killing options more versatile depending on what character you are facing.
This all day. Killing with T.Link really isn't that hard.

Top that with great run-away/camping ability, great close range defensive options and damn good recovery (once you know how) and you get a character who's incredibly solid and capable of getting through most things. The only thing T.Link really lacks is a great close range offense, but there are ways to get around that.

Like for real I'd put him like right next to Link.
 

DMG

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DMG#931
He has setups, but they aren't reliable until the first chain has been successfully done, and his non easy setups require more thought and effort than the average character imo. Like he can't convert a non specific hit, into a kill. Or easily fish for one safely if he is having trouble with the grab or the bomb. Bombs give you more to work with, because it's essentially a lot of free time to reposition and respond if they land obviously, but he's not great at getting close up and truly scaring someone. His edgeguarding is above average. I'm probably biased against him because I expect him to usually get the Fox Falco Marth Sheik Falcon Mario etc that will have an easy time with him, instead of like DK Bowser Ganon Jiggs etc

His ground game is really lacking. Being grounded for Grabs and occasionally juggle moves like Utilt/Usmash is not very great. Not much you could do to fix it though if you want to stick with the archetype of short sword.
 

Professor Pro

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TL is relatively bad. He has options, they just aren't that crazy. Killing people with him takes some actual work compared to most good characters lol.
These kind of posts just make me think this thread is filled with a bunch of inexperienced people expressing a sense of certainty in fields which they aren't even good in or know enough about to be speaking on in the first place lol.

Like before when I tried to tell someone about a MU not being that bad he said (paraphrasing) 'I don't need to play the MU, I just need to look at their moves' - Professor Theory Crafting.

That's why the majority of my smash spent time goes towards getting better, rather than waiting for others to get better to then base my opinion off, and I reserve judgement on characters I don't have a very good solid understanding on, because then I don't end up saying things which are wrong.

:awesome: P.S. Why is Snake 15th on that list, he is garbage, please put him 28th :awesome:
 

DMG

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DMG#931
It does take work to get a kill with TL though. If you don't grab or bomb someone, there's not a very clear path on how their character is gonna die. He generally can't run up or fly up in someone's face, shout "BOO!", and startle the other guy. TL has options when they happen, it's the process of getting someone into his setups or finishers that is a load of work. It's laborious if they really don't want bad things to happen to them and have a capable character. Don't get me started if you're behind or falling behind and need to play catch up, lost the momentum, time, and space needed to pull bombs or approach solidly.


I actually play him a bit. I don't just watch Daze play him and go "yeah I would stomp that np np". Half of the time, I feel that I'm landing stuff with him due to the other person's lack of patience or not abusing things like shielding out of a dash instantly or SDIing the bombs/CCing air approaches. His ground game is forgettable besides juggle and grab, he's solid elsewhere, but he's not a ridiculous character. Best part about him is easily getting 30-40% without trying too hard on like 85% of the cast if they goof up. Again, I may be biased against him because I expect him to run into his harder MU's more than his easier MU's. Then again, no one plays Marth or Sheik because half the country is busy playing Bowser for god knows why (KIRK AND GIMPY DARN YOU!)
 

Jolteon

I'm sharpening my knife, kupo.
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He has setups, but they aren't reliable until the first chain has been successfully done, and his non easy setups require more thought and effort than the average character imo. Like he can't convert a non specific hit, into a kill. Or easily fish for one safely if he is having trouble with the grab or the bomb. Bombs give you more to work with, because it's essentially a lot of free time to reposition and respond if they land obviously, but he's not great at getting close up and truly scaring someone. His edgeguarding is above average. I'm probably biased against him because I expect him to usually get the Fox Falco Marth Sheik Falcon Mario etc that will have an easy time with him, instead of like DK Bowser Ganon Jiggs etc

His ground game is really lacking. Being grounded for Grabs and occasionally juggle moves like Utilt/Usmash is not very great. Not much you could do to fix it though if you want to stick with the archetype of short sword.
How are they not reliable? His KO moves are the opposite of what you said (unable to land them without a "specific hit"). His up+b is a free hit against nearly anyone in the air as long as you aren't bad at timing it and that's really as extreme as you can get for a killing move that does not require a hit confirm to connect. dair is also safe to throw out on platform stages since dair platform cancels are really really hard to punish, fair is also similar to up+b in which it does not need a move to set-up with as it is good for intercepting off-stage and aerial opponents. As well as having a KO move that does not require a hit-confirm, he can hit confirm off of a ton of moves (dtilt, bomb, rang, grab, utilt, bair). Half of those moves can be thrown out safely which makes them low risk/high reward, and his dtilt in particular is like one of the easiest moves in the game to hit confirm with (dat electric tip). That seems very versatile to me and I'm honestly confused as to what constitutes a solid kill power at that point apart from "hit confirm from every move you have at 80% for a guaranteed KO".

If we're drawing connections to other good characters, I think his killing power is better than Sheik's (more set-ups that don't require baiting into a grab/ground move, better at intercepting aerial opponents and converting it into a kill, moves that combo into KOing moves better on high % floaties, killing moves that you can't ground tech) and Sheik is pretty good at killing people.

I agree that his ground game is relatively poorer than some characters but fishing for grabs/usmash on the ground is a terrible way to play Toon Link that will make him seem like a bad character.
 

TheReflexWonder

Wonderful!
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There's no escape from Toon Link's Up-B.

Also, Squirtle leaves a lot to be desired in terms of general gameplay. With the sizable population working on figuring out the game, it seems unlikely that literally everyone has just put too little time into him.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
Ofc it's bad to fish with him. The point being if his easier options are not working, it's really tedious and hard to get the kill. He can't easily toss out moves, that are likely to land or be a threat, that then lead into the kill. He has a LOT of moves that he can toss out, that lead into a quick combo or succession hit. At low % he can pretty easily combo anyone for a solid 40+ without thought really. In certain scenarios, yes he can toss out moves. Floaty characters above him are a field day. Bulky ones want to stay home from his projectile game. Offstage better not be a fast faller or have a bad recovery, etc.


But on average, he's not forcefully as threatening. He's not so great at baiting or getting up close and threatening a myriad of options, which leads to a pretty average neutral game. Some of his hits have that G&W syndrome, where they can send you out just a bit too far when you'd prefer them to fly closer for an additional hit, which tends to happen past mid %. He can defend ok, he can play neutral ok, I just think his ability to proactively convert or even obtain an advantage from neutral, into a kill, is overrated. I think it will be much harder than we currently experience, as people back off from playing as aggressive in this game and play more patiently in general. I think the issue of killing with him in the future will look more like a Small Mountain than a Hill.


I don't question his actual kill power. He's fine there. I just question how easily he can actually land or threaten it sometimes. The floaty point is a good one and I expect his best MU's to be against Floaty characters. Besides the obvious big guy who will probably get camped to death lol.



Squirtle is bad (or am I gonna be questioned to death on that opinion as well?)
 

Bones0

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Also, Squirtle leaves a lot to be desired in terms of general gameplay. With the sizable population working on figuring out the game, it seems unlikely that literally everyone has just put too little time into him.
Squirtle is bad (or am I gonna be questioned to death on that opinion as well?)
I implore both of you to try incorporating The Tail into your Squirtle's gameplay.
 

DMG

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DMG#931
I try to Water Gun people with Squirtle

I've already exhausted the Tail

I also try to hit and kill people with the Upb Blast in Side B form
 

Bones0

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Scumbag P:M creators:

Remove Mario's Fludd, leave Squirtle with Water Gun.

You can't exhaust The Tail. It goes through projectiles, goes through attacks, and goes through faces.
 

DMG

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DMG#931
Ok hold up, no one told me it goes through faces

I could have been having *FUN* with Squirtle this whole time!
 

JayMan-X

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I implore both of you to try incorporating The Tail into your Squirtle's gameplay.
Squirtles Back air is pretty good, but its not that great. It doesn't have the best range (although its not bad), and it doesnt have a ton of kill power. It probably squirtle's best aerial overall simply because of the "sword-like" properties on it, but calling Squirtle almost top tier is a HUGE push. I feel like people are sleeping on his greatness too, but when you start comparing Squirtle to other characters, he definitely seems pretty low tier.
 

DMG

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DMG#931
Your avatar is great, but you're clearly not getting it

IT GOES

THROUGH FACES

Strong Faces too, not just wimps like Jigglyfluff but Bowzer and DK too
 

Bones0

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Squirtles Back air is pretty good, but its not that great. It doesn't have the best range (although its not bad), and it doesnt have a ton of kill power. It probably squirtle's best aerial overall simply because of the "sword-like" properties on it, but calling Squirtle almost top tier is a HUGE push. I feel like people are sleeping on his greatness too, but when you start comparing Squirtle to other characters, he definitely seems pretty low tier.
"best range"
"a ton of kill power"
"best aerial overall"

I definitely agree this is a push, but I am glad you see the benefit to a Squirtle metagame centralized around The Tail.
 

Jolteon

I'm sharpening my knife, kupo.
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What options are you talking about? :/ It's true that his moves are difficult to connect, due to the fact that he doesn't have a direct way to threaten shields/crouch cancel outside of spacing pokes/spacing nair, but I can't see where you are coming from regarding moves that don't lead into the kill since his moves that connect into combo moves also connect into killing moves (and you're saying that he has tons of moves that lead into combos). His moves aren't immediately threatening but are safe when used and have good rewards on hit, e.g. bair/dtilt.

I think the ease in which he can land his killing moves is better than his killing power (his KO moves aren't THAT strong relatively). >_> up+b is literally one of the easiest ko moves to land with in the entire game and is extremely threatening, especially if you use bomb/rang to cover landing angles when they're really high up (and bomb/rang both hit confirm into dair/up+b).
 
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