geno
Smash Apprentice
Awwwwww, yeeeeeah! G&W is moving up in the world. No longer dead last
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
Vashimus
Smash Master
Why can't Squirtle just be dominating like we thought he would Pre-2.5....
This list actually looks pretty damn solid. No characters seem to be in WTF places right now.
This list actually looks pretty damn solid. No characters seem to be in WTF places right now.
BryE
Smash Journeyman
Everything seems solid. Although I kinda question Snake's position. If anything, Link and Snake should be swapped imo. But that's about it.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Falcon and Jigglypuff are in kind of wtf places high and low respectively.
Squirtle suffers from terrible design syndrome. Small, fast, slippery, low priority, awkward jump height and fall speed, light armor on half of his moves, turnaround hitbox. The alternative to a really mediocre character with that kind of build is, well, Sonic pretty much. Like any other polarising design, Squirtle lives in extremes.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
Sonic is god tier atm.
ivy's ridic too
i main falco cuz he's beast and same as melee. He's the best among melee chars. I hope other melee characters can catch up to him
I think like most people, since I already have great understanding of many melee chars at super top level, and most people come from melee or have the characters the same, they can pick them up very fast
but no, sonic is not 3rd and sheik is far worse than 4th. I actually wish sheik was upgraded to get either her down throw back, or her Fair power back. I think falco is clearly better than fox too. I don't care if you change this, I'm just letting you all know.
ivy's ridic too
i main falco cuz he's beast and same as melee. He's the best among melee chars. I hope other melee characters can catch up to him
I think like most people, since I already have great understanding of many melee chars at super top level, and most people come from melee or have the characters the same, they can pick them up very fast
but no, sonic is not 3rd and sheik is far worse than 4th. I actually wish sheik was upgraded to get either her down throw back, or her Fair power back. I think falco is clearly better than fox too. I don't care if you change this, I'm just letting you all know.
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
how is ivysaur ridicoulus?
Oro?!
Smash Hero
"Does not compute. Plant type not integrated into system. ERROR ERROR ERROR."
Ivy is bad.
Ivy is bad.
GunBlaze
Smash Lord
So her Fair does not have the same strengh as in Melee?
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
her fair is exactly the same as melee
GunBlaze
Smash Lord
M2K says otherwise and I don't know why.
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
probably because of slightly larger stages overall making it seem like her fair doesn't kill as early? idk
Oro?!
Smash Hero
Brawl models make people think the craziest things. Sveet is convinced Fox's upB doesn't go as far as Melee, as if he needed a bigger recovery lol.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
Do you actually play Falco? Jw
I heard that sveet guy will go to tournaments but not enter.
@Sveet.
What's the matter? Scared?
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
he hasn't been able to sit in a chair since
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
THE chair, toasty. THE chair.
D
Deleted member
Guest
i think sheik is 4th for now. her fair is fine.
i also agree that sonic is god tier.
i also agree that sonic is god tier.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
Well I knew about that but I was wondering if he played Falco in a serious capacity in PM (or melee). M2k probably had no intention of taking a Falco ditto set from PP unless he seriously plays Falco.
Vashimus
Smash Master
Oh.
On Ivy being ridic, I never really thought Ivy was that great. Really all the Pokemon are either underwhelming or getting overshadowed.
On Ivy being ridic, I never really thought Ivy was that great. Really all the Pokemon are either underwhelming or getting overshadowed.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Bones0
Smash Legend
How is Squirtle's design terrible? I think he's one of the most fun character designs in any Smash game. I like that he is a small, fast, slippery critter with light armor and a turnaround hitbox. It's unique, which is what Smash has always been about. If you think Squirtle could use some buffed hitboxes or a slightly different jump height, then I can get behind that, but I don't think he needs any changes that significantly alter his play style or overall design. I very much don't want to play Demo 3 to find that he doesn't play anything like he does now, and it's not because I've put a bunch of time into him. If anything, I don't want him drastically changed because I am looking forward to exploring his current design.
Whoever is in charge of making his changes should do this:
- Give him a useful DA. Either give it some decent KB so you can push people off stage with it (nothing ridiculous), or make it so he can pop people upwards with it into a combo (preferably the former because Withdraw and utilt both sort of cover the second role already).
- Dair needs to work more like Mario's by sort of sucking the opponent towards him, and a bit better priority couldn't hurt. As it is now, it's just too easy for the opponent to (not even intentionally) DI out of it. As an alternative, it could work more like Jigglypuff's or Fox's drill where it pushes the opponent into the ground. Maybe even making it a meteor like Kirby's dair (or 64 style spike?
).- Nair doesn't really do anything at all for him, atm. Aside from being used to break through certain recoveries with the light armor, I have a hard time coming up with any scenarios where I would rather nair than use any other aerial. I would like to see it become a reverse sex kick (just put a small water-blast at the end with increased KB and slightly more priority). The beginning, weak part of the nair will help because he desperately lacks any sort of horizontal combo game, and of course the end of the move could be used for edgeguarding, finishing off combos, or even zoning by doing something like FHing and ACing it so the end comes out right before he lands.
- Water Gun is just weird... He can zone with it sort of, but even that doesn't really work because it doesn't even do damage half the time. Then there's the whole part about charging it making it worse. Everyone's recoveries in P:M are way too good for the push back to ever really accomplish anything. Idk what they can do with it, but I wouldn't be upset seeing the entirety of the move scrapped.
I absolutely love Squirtle's design. It's a breath of fresh air, unique, and totally in line with what you would expect Squirtle to be. He can be a very technical character if you are willing to put the work into fully exploring his shell shifting options.
Like, as somebody who used to run Squirtle back in the day in D/P/P Little Cup, a lot of his strength was in his priority attacks - a sneaky hit and run character constantly being brought in and out of the battle. His emphasis on being a fast, slippery, high mobility character just fits that perfectly.
But I will agree that he has his problems that just hold him back. I love his physics aside from his SH. It ends up limiting his usability for the most part. His very low priority, and what seems like intentional limitation to his combo game; like, give him a usable throw game, maybe improve Utilt to be a better launcher into what's a pretty good juggle game. He has to put in a lot of work to get in because his low range and priority, and when he does get in he doesn't get much. Water Gun I'll agree is just without a real direction. To be honest I might just say ditch the pushback altogether. It would be one thing if this was all Melee recoveries, but a majority of characters just don't care about it. Even if the pushback was better against PM recoveries, it's awkward because in general the uncharged version has more use so you'll often just not have it charged the few times it would come into play. So maybe ditch the pushback but give it more usability in other ways? The charged version is fairly telegraphed and easy super easy to punish on whiff so I would hardly find giving me incentive to charge it too good.
Like, as somebody who used to run Squirtle back in the day in D/P/P Little Cup, a lot of his strength was in his priority attacks - a sneaky hit and run character constantly being brought in and out of the battle. His emphasis on being a fast, slippery, high mobility character just fits that perfectly.
But I will agree that he has his problems that just hold him back. I love his physics aside from his SH. It ends up limiting his usability for the most part. His very low priority, and what seems like intentional limitation to his combo game; like, give him a usable throw game, maybe improve Utilt to be a better launcher into what's a pretty good juggle game. He has to put in a lot of work to get in because his low range and priority, and when he does get in he doesn't get much. Water Gun I'll agree is just without a real direction. To be honest I might just say ditch the pushback altogether. It would be one thing if this was all Melee recoveries, but a majority of characters just don't care about it. Even if the pushback was better against PM recoveries, it's awkward because in general the uncharged version has more use so you'll often just not have it charged the few times it would come into play. So maybe ditch the pushback but give it more usability in other ways? The charged version is fairly telegraphed and easy super easy to punish on whiff so I would hardly find giving me incentive to charge it too good.
Bones0
Smash Legend
I think his utilt is amazing, but I agree with the rest completely.
Professor Pro
Smash Legend
Snake's too high on that list, debatably worst character in game
Bones0
Smash Legend
THE REALITY!
Looks like he should come and join Toon Link. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Professor Pro
Smash Legend
Armada beat Hbox with Y.Link
Toon Link is a better Y.Link, Toon Link is top tier.
You have nothing to complain about.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
This boneslogic is too heavy to hold anymore stop it prof.
Spiffykins
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2012
- Messages
- 547
There was that time Esam beat Chillin. Probably a little bit of sandbagging going on that day, but still, I LOL'd out loud.
t3chn0g0at
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2012
- Messages
- 49
There is no way Jiggs is that high.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
ESAM is not bad in Melee on top of being a top level competitor in Brawl, he also beat Javi at APEX, so he may have a handle on things.
Spiffykins
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2012
- Messages
- 547
Yeah, I'm not dissing esam at all. He's very good.
leelue
Smash Lord
ewwwwwwwwwwwwww
why is he doing... many of these things
Not for nothing, but N-Air is one of Squirtle's best moves.
Alright, so right now, the responses are currently at 44, exactly. If we get the total amount to 66 (because doubling is fun), I'll average it out, but right now it's not a big enough difference where much would change.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Long day playing Brawl.
leelue
Smash Lord
DAT MAFF