Tier List Speculation

[Warsaint777]

Mewtwo is being slept on. Hard.

Ok I am always super cereal about trying to get good with less popular char's. Is m2 really not getting any love cuz I just got PM this week and I will begin trying to main him if he's far less used than dorf.

 

[Boiko]

Ok I am always super cereal about trying to get good with less popular char's. Is m2 really not getting any love cuz I just got PM this week and I will begin trying to main him if he's far less used than dorf.

Two of the best players, um.. period, use Mewtwo, Emukiller and Frozen. Not sure how they feel about the character now overall.

I've asked them both, and completely forgot what they said.

 

[Warsaint777]

Two of the best players, um.. period, use Mewtwo, Emukiller and Frozen. Not sure how they feel about the character now overall.

I've asked them both, and completely forgot what they said.

well **** dude. Haha.

Also there's a major diff. between a top player using a char and maining a char. See: M2k.

 

[Boiko]

well **** dude. Haha.

Also there's a major diff. between a top player using a char and maining a char. See: M2k.

They main him, no worries. I talk to both pretty frequently so I'll see what they think.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Mewtwo has a fairly harsh skill curve in 3.5, but he's still pretty strong at a high level.

 

[Oro?!]

Two of the best players, um.. period, use Mewtwo, Emukiller and Frozen. Not sure how they feel about the character now overall.

I've asked them both, and completely forgot what they said.

Two of the best players period? No hate on them but... what?

 

[Boiko]

Two of the best players period? No hate on them but... what?

Can't really argue with Emu's results and the people he has beaten.
Frozen to a lesser degree, sure, but he's still an extremely talented player and can compete with some of the best. Even Emu said to look out for Frozen's M2 in 3.5 because that's who he is watching.

 

[Warsaint777]

Also I may be birthing an elephant into the room, if you'd let me molest that metaphor, but: do you guys suppose it bothers the PM devs at all to talk about their char's tiers when one of their top philosophical goals is to make the roster completely, objectively balanced?

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Also I may be birthing an elephant into the room, if you'd let me molest that metaphor, but: do you guys suppose it bothers the PM devs at all to talk about their char's tiers when one of their top philosophical goals is to make the roster completely, objectively balanced?

If you'll notice, there are a few PMDT members in here discussing right with everyone else, ha. I doubt they care, it's not like anyone should expect a perfectly balanced roster with such a diverse cast of characters anyway.

Edit: On the subject of Ganon talk, by the way, soooooooooo many of his match ups became sooooooooooooooooo much easier in 3.5. I have trouble seeing him anywhere lower than mid-tier at this point.

 

[Warsaint777]

If you'll notice, there are a few PMDT members in here discussing right with everyone else, ha. I doubt they care, it's not like anyone should expect a perfectly balanced roster with such a diverse cast of characters anyway.

nah yeah I know i saw the couple'a purple ribbons on ppls.

Edit: On the subject of Ganon talk, by the way, soooooooooo many of his match ups became sooooooooooooooooo much easier in 3.5. I have trouble seeing him anywhere lower than mid-tier at this point.

now I've literally not seen a single PM M2 icon on anyone's avy and seen like 10 dorfs. I am compelled to step into the minority group.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

now I've literally not seen a single PM M2 icon on anyone's avy and seen like 10 dorfs. I am compelled to step into the minority group.

What can I say? 'Dorf's are loud and proud.

Anywho, I would recommend just playing the character you find most fun, are most comfortable with, and all that jazz. Basing your choice off of inverse character popularity is silly, in my opinion.

That said, I'm sure you'll see less Ganons around as 3.5 runs its course and everyone remembers that Ganon still loses to a lot of the cast and has a crap neutral.

 

[Warsaint777]

@ Hungry Headcrab lol, yes to all that. He's fun and comfy to me, but man. Mewtwo is just SO COOL. Idk man.

So is dorf's neutral seriously an infamous determent to his overall value in competition?

 

[Mystic-]

Dorf really isn't that good imo and I honestly don't think many people are going to stick with him after the initial surge due to his 3.5 changes. Dorf is cool as **** though so idk he might be over-represented like he and Falcon are in Melee. Don't play someone to be a hipster though...that's almost as annoying as low tier heroes johning about how they only lost cuz match up/tier list.

 

[MagnesD3]

If you'll notice, there are a few PMDT members in here discussing right with everyone else, ha. I doubt they care, it's not like anyone should expect a perfectly balanced roster with such a diverse cast of characters anyway.

Edit: On the subject of Ganon talk, by the way, soooooooooo many of his match ups became sooooooooooooooooo much easier in 3.5. I have trouble seeing him anywhere lower than mid-tier at this point.

Shoot I hope they care. They are getter closer and closer to an amazingly balanced game.

Unlike Sakurai the PMBR look like they actually give a **** since they have this amazing opportunity.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

Tough to say about Dorf,but he's probably at least mid-tier.
The way things go in a fight with Dorf are sorta polarizing-Dorf hits hard,or he gets punished hard.I don't really know anything though,I'm kinda speaking hypothetically here.

 

[Warsaint777]

Dorf really isn't that good imo and I honestly don't think many people are going to stick with him after the initial surge due to his 3.5 changes. Dorf is cool as **** though so idk he might be over-represented like he and Falcon are in Melee. Don't play someone to be a hipster though...that's almost as annoying as low tier heroes johning about how they only lost cuz match up/tier list.

Are you really one of the melee players in denial of the mathematically and technically objective disadvantages lower tier characters had in melee? Regardless, I can get behind it being annoying to deliberately get good with them but then turn around and complain when you struggle.

But yes I do like to take "hipster" angles and optimize less represented characters in a roster and competitive venue if they appeal to me aesthetically and Mewtwo seems to fit the bill for me since I'm not hardly seeing his icon on the boards and because in Melee he was my childhood hero and I only abandoned him due to his being in his own tier level of shame.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Can't really argue with Emu's results and the people he has beaten.

Yes, I absolutely can. He's beaten people with a character that was easily more broken than Brawl Metaknight. Doesn't mean a damn thing.

Doesn't mean he's necessarily bad, either -- we'll just see how he performs when his character isn't clearly better than everyone else's.

 

[Paradoxium]

Yes, I absolutely can. He's beaten people with a character that was easily more broken than Brawl Metaknight. Doesn't mean a damn thing.

Doesn't mean he's necessarily bad, either -- we'll just see how he performs when his character isn't clearly better than everyone else's.

he beat M2k in Mewtwo dittos though. And there were like 5 other characters who were as broken as Mewtwo. Just saying, i think it was a very good player using a broken character.

 

[Warsaint777]

He's beaten people with a character that was easily more broken than Brawl Metaknight.

Who?? Was M2 at one point in PM forreal regarded as even more overpowered than Brawl MK??

 

[Boiko]

Yes, I absolutely can. He's beaten people with a character that was easily more broken than Brawl Metaknight. Doesn't mean a damn thing.

Doesn't mean he's necessarily bad, either -- we'll just see how he performs when his character isn't clearly better than everyone else's.

I mean, one could make the argument that character selection is still part of the game. Plus Lucas, Diddy, Pit were all insanely broken. And he beat M2K in the ditto.

I don't actually want to argue about 3.02 results though.

 

[Warsaint777]

@ Boiko why did you not main ness in melee. You blew your consistency.

 

[Boiko]

@ Boiko why did you not main ness in melee. You blew your consistency.

Lmao one of these things is not like the other~*~

I started with Ness, but didn't have much fun with him.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Yes, I absolutely can. He's beaten people with a character that was easily more broken than Brawl Metaknight.

Lmao wat
You can't really be more broken than vMK when there's like 5 or 6 other characters just as bad and that many more lagging not too far behind.

 

[Soft Serve]

Didn't he also get 2-0'd by a 12 year old link player who's game plan was like 80% boomerang and Zair?
Emu himself has said he doesn't think he is that great and he just got carried by playing/developing a broken character.
He is good but calling him one of the best players ever is a bit of a stretch.

M2 is definitely still very good in 3.5. He doesn't have TP hover, but thats really the biggest noticable change (tail size difference hardly matters, uptilt nerf hurts), and his dtilt got buffed. I think he does well vs the other really good characters, I can see him being considered top 10-15 still.

 

[Boiko]

Didn't he also get 2-0'd by a 12 year old link player who's game plan was like 80% boomerang and Zair?
Emu himself has said he doesn't think he is that great and he just got carried by playing/developing a broken character.
He is good but calling him one of the best players ever is a bit of a stretch.

M2 is definitely still very good in 3.5. He doesn't have TP hover, but thats really the biggest noticable change (tail size difference hardly matters, uptilt nerf hurts), and his dtilt got buffed. I think he does well vs the other really good characters, I can see him being considered top 10-15 still.

13 GET IT RIGHT DUDE.

FTR Aklo also beat Guru, Frozen, and others using the same strategy, lmao. That kid is the NUT.

 

[didds]

real hipsters play yoshi and squirtle

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

If you're playing Mewtwo for the hipster angle you're a moron because he's still top 10 and people will flock once they stop being stupid about 3.5 nerfs that gave Mewtwo a more focused gameplan with weaknesses to exploit but did not change the fact that he is a good character with powerful tools.

FTR I love Mewtwo this version if it came across like I was hating on him or something. He's just not the hipster character, that's still Weegee.

 

[didds]

oh yea weegee, hipsters definitely play weegee

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

@ Hungry Headcrab So is dorf's neutral seriously an infamous determent to his overall value in competition?

Yeah, but good neutral games are for nerds anyway.

Shoot I hope they care. They are getter closer and closer to an amazingly balanced game.

Unlike Sakurai the PMBR look like they actually give a **** since they have this amazing opportunity.

I didn't mean to say that they don't care as in they aren't striving for balance, I was just saying that discussing the balance isn't likely to offend anyone on the PMDT. I'm sure most everyone on the team understands that perfect balance isn't truly achievable short of a mass homogenization of the cast.

 

[1Flow]

I would say that he is only slightly changed.

 

[Frost | Odds]

If you're playing Mewtwo for the hipster angle you're a moron because he's still top 10 and people will flock once they stop being stupid about 3.5 nerfs that gave Mewtwo a more focused gameplan with weaknesses to exploit but did not change the fact that he is a good character with powerful tools.

Neon Black was almost getting better results than before in friendlies, because the new shadow balls forced him to not spam them like a goddamned mental invalid.

 

[Soft Serve]

Neon Black was almost getting better results than before in friendlies, because the new shadow balls forced him to not spam them like a goddamned mental invalid.

^ to expand on this

the greatest advice anyone ever gave me that made me improve was Tai forcing me to not shoot lasers in melee for a weekly. My god did everything start to make more sense, you're forced to actually neutral well once you're not allowed to default back to your "i'm not sure what to do so throw this out" move.

 

[~Frozen~]

Oh hey Mewtwo talk

I still think he's really good, in 3.0 he could easily survive on rather basic tools, but he still had so many more intricate and cool things that were never really explored fully because they just weren't really necessary. Now, he'll have to put those to use to be effective, but I think once he's explored more he'll be a top 10 contender. Seriously Hover is the greatest thing ever

Also as much as I appreciate the compliment, I don't consider myself a top player by any means haha. I'm not going to deny that 3.0 Mewtwo had carried me quite a bit, but that isn't going to deter me from learning more and trying harder

 

[MagnesD3]

Yeah, but good neutral games are for nerds anyway.



I didn't mean to say that they don't care as in they aren't striving for balance, I was just saying that discussing the balance isn't likely to offend anyone on the PMDT. I'm sure most everyone on the team understands that perfect balance isn't truly achievable short of a mass homogenization of the cast.

Of course I mean as perfect as one can get it, nothing is truly perfect.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Oh hey Mewtwo talk

I still think he's really good, in 3.0 he could easily survive on rather basic tools, but he still had so many more intricate and cool things that were never really explored fully because they just weren't really necessary. Now, he'll have to put those to use to be effective, but I think once he's explored more he'll be a top 10 contender. Seriously Hover is the greatest thing ever

Also as much as I appreciate the compliment, I don't consider myself a top player by any means haha. I'm not going to deny that 3.0 Mewtwo had carried me quite a bit, but that isn't going to deter me from learning more and trying harder

All as it should be, IMO. I'm really excited to see some legit mewtwo stuff.

How are Pit and Link faring with the nerfs? Still good? Haven't played at all with either.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

All as it should be, IMO. I'm really excited to see some legit mewtwo stuff.

How are Pit and Link faring with the nerfs? Still good? Haven't played at all with either.

Pit is still good and don't let anyone tell you any different.

They might have overdone it with Lunk though.

 

[Soft Serve]

Pit is still good and don't let anyone tell you any different.

They might have overdone it with Lunk though.

the Pit/Link players here are actually thinking the opposite
Ic3 doesn't really notice the nerfs, while Vixen and SS( had a pit 2ndary) hate the changes

 

[Jolteon]

Also I may be birthing an elephant into the room, if you'd let me molest that metaphor, but: do you guys suppose it bothers the PM devs at all to talk about their char's tiers when one of their top philosophical goals is to make the roster completely, objectively balanced?

Complete balance is impossible to achieve short of total homogenization, characters will always be relatively worse or better than other characters are. Several of us (myself included) have discussed character viability and relative placements in this thread before.

 

[Deleted member]

link was beaten to death with the nerfbat imo. he went from being a newbslayer that was fine at higher play to okay at midlevel play but totally buns once you go higher up.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Vixen doesn't know what she wants