Tier List Speculation

[Soft Serve]

Neon thinks Squirtle is high tier or something right

Other than his tech rolls, last time I talked to him he thought Squirtle was broken
I think squirtman is silly, but those tech rolls man, my god are they horrible

 

[~Dad~]

Other than his tech rolls, last time I talked to him he thought Squirtle was broken
I think squirtman is silly, but those tech rolls man, my god are they horrible

Every time I tech roll I die a little inside.

Also Squirtle is bad.


Give Squirtle a gun.

 

[Vashimus]

Give Squirtle a gun.

It's Nerf or nothing

 

[Frost | Odds]

I'm open to being persuaded that Squirtle is viable or even good, I just seriously haven't seen it. He's got a bunch of good tools, but they all seem like worse versions of someone else's - plus he can't pivot properly, plus his tech rolls suck, plus he's so damn light.

 

[Soft Serve]

Squirtles viability is inversely related to the number of stupid names Squirtle mains insist his techs be called
I still don't really get the different between sling jumping and just RARing

 

[~Dad~]

Squirtles viability is inversely related to the number of stupid names Squirtle mains insist his techs be called
I still don't really get the different between sling jumping and just RARing

Sling jump gives you a huge speed boost because you're jumping out of the startup of shellshift.

Also Squirtle tech is hilarious bull**** and Squirtman mains have a hardon for naming every little thing.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[SpiderMad]

Squirtles viability is inversely related to the number of stupid names Squirtle mains insist his techs be called
I still don't really get the different between sling jumping and just RARing

Well first off

When I heard burst movement was getting nerfed in 3.5, I thought Squirtle was getting his sling jump reduced back to 2.0 levels. But no not at all, he still flys like a majestic flying squirel in a tornado. And his strong side-b still goes 200mph, you just can't do all the stuff out of it that nobody besides me utilized anyways.

The only other nerf was the jump height reduction I went over, to whom anyone who sucked at Squirtle like Oro and everyone, did not notice the now lack of SH Nair DJ/WL and SH Double Fair and all that. BUT, the jump height now makes his aerials more SHFFAll'able or whatever? So it pry feels a lot better to people who were trying to use his aerials more like other characters than Luigi or something, though SH Fair WL is now more crisp'ish, and SH Up-air to other aerials still works.

Also Bubble and Up-smash were nerfed, so that's a small dent, but he still has a killing D-throw and now more so Up-b.

Also Bones commented that he's the only character that can't actually dash dance besides in place with how anything broader leads to his shell shift.

And as good as he might be, small stages, and Fox's Up-smash, limit him to be a good CP character until Neon invests more time into being a good Squirtle. Side-b can still own people who don't know how to deal with new things.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Also Squirtle tech is hilarious bull**** and Squirtman mains have a hardon for naming every little thing.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

pls share your wisdom with the Bowser boards. we can bring on a new age of technical turtle pedantry.

 

[~Dad~]

pls share your wisdom with the Bowser boards. we can bring on a new age of technical turtle pedantry.

but I don't even booser

 

[Foo]

Squirtles viability is inversely related to the number of stupid names Squirtle mains insist his techs be called
I still don't really get the different between sling jumping and just RARing

Once people figure out how to use reverse hydroflop dashing properly, squirtle will be top tier.

 

[~Dad~]

Once people figure out how to use reverse hydroflop dashing properly, squirtle will be top tier.

No way man it's all about hydro-dashed Dad-planing now try and keep up.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

squirreltil is fur nerds

 

[leekslap]

New and improved Odds Tire Lust, smacking of fresh bias, speculation, BS, and more than likely one too many drinks.

This is harder than ever, which I chalk up to excellent work by the PMDT.

Fox Tier:

Not Fox Tier:

Probably Quite Viable Tier:

Why Bother Tier:




This list reflects only my feelings at this exact moment, and not necessarily any sort of fact - particularly because i still haven't had a chance to play with or against all these yet.

Edit: I feel like I should also mention that as far as my perceptions go, the gap between Probably Quite Viable Tier and Why Bother Tier is signficantly larger than the others. I was probably wrong about literally every single one of these placements in any case - particularly D3 through Pit.

EDIT: What a pretensious jerk. I was just trying to be nice. God I hate this place.

Alright, when it comes to bias, overcritizing, and bringing up bad moments from the past, I have, for the most part, stayed quiet on it and acted like a victim instead of defending myself. But I'm done saying sorry and hoping people will feel for me. Lemme go back to Puff. I suggested a Rollout charge and explained why it would work: it's predictable, punishable as hell, and limited to occasional mixup kills and to force approaches in the neutral. Shairn said "there's so much wrong with this post" and said it would be broken because... it kills, it's unpunishable when charging apparently, and changed the subject into hax dashes and her viability. First of all, basically every single chargeable move, whether smash attack or Charge Beam, can kill. Saying it's godlike because it kills when used as a mixup is just dumb. Of course it will hit because you took time to get in your opponent's head to trick them into not being prepared! Second of all, I doubt pressing L to stop charging will have zero end lag and even start up when charging or attacking. Even if Puff does have a dumb Rollout stall at the ledge, I'm pretty sure hitting her would be really easy. Does Puff have a hax dash for infinite invincibility? No, so why bring up stalls at all? The main difference in 3.5 is that she gimps better, and the main difference in Melee is that instead of 11 viable characters, there's like 35! She doesn't have superior range, KO power, recovery, and gimping than most of the cast now and she's basically a Kirby clone with most of her moves made into garbage and Rest. Rest is broken. If it were on any other character, they'd be broken but it's on garbage with by far the worst moveset in the game. Anything she can do, there's another character that can do it better 5 times over. How is she not just garbage? People are suggesting overhauls with new up bs and a balanced Rest when all she really needs is a reason for anybody to give a crap. She's bland, unfun, and boring. It's frustrating to deal with camp so why not return the favor and just outcamp her with a character you might not even use? A charged Rollout will make matches shorter which is what I meant by her being less gay. Just one little seemingly unimportant change will make her loads better. It's not an overhaul but it gives her a lot of options. That's my post, but I tried to make it short and sweet to get the point across.

DrinkingFood literally suggested this same idea and another one which was clearly broken: no hate. I suggest it: bias. It's almost like if I'm a girl gamer or something ( which I'm not ). About being 50% less obnoxious, I was trying to see if showing my determination to change for the better would do anything, but as Odds proved, nothing. You guys don't focus on anything good I say. I prove a 12 year old Meta Knight main knows about theory and mindgames, but you don't care. I show a good idea for balancing two of the worst characters in the game, you check every letter for something wrong I do and don't even try to think if you are being illogical. That reminds me, nobody brought Olimar up so that means people agree which means bias on me because I purposefully put generally agreed things in my posts. This is the biggest sign of bias against me along with at least 5 likes on every post against me, so don't lie about it. Stop thinking about what I've said in the past and think w/o bias about what I'm saying now. This isn't an obnoxious victim mentality, it's almost discrimination and the truth. You guys always try to make ME the villain, and I am just so SICK and TIRED of it. Even if I try to be reasonable by not insulting the hell out of everybody like Barbie even though it's as tempting as drugs if I were addicted, you don't change your mind and the only person who has is @ Mean Green . But after being insulted so many times, I feel like I deserve to snap. Give me a chance.

 

[MagnesD3]

My 2 cents based on what I've seen out of 3.5

Viable:

Mario
Wario
Yoshi
Diddy Kong
Wolf
Fox
Falco
Sheik
Link
Mewtwo
Ivysaur
Charizard
Samus
Zamus
Lucas
Pit
Metaknight
Marth
Roy
R.O.B.
GnW
Snake


Maybe Viable

Peach
Bowser
Donkey Kong
Captain Falcon
Squirtle
Zelda
Tink
Lucario
Ike
Sonic

Not Viable/No Clue

Luigi
Ice Climbers
Ganon
Pikachu
Jigglypuff
King D3
Kirby
Olimar
Ness

 

[Deleted member]

I'm gonna give a dollar to whoever can read the huge ass leek post and tl;dr it for me

 

[leekslap]

I'm gonna give a dollar to whoever can read the huge *** leek post and tl;dr it for me

Puff is bad and campy. Bias against me with no attention to anything agreeable I say. People don't change. You are all pretensious. I've tried to be reasonable but you don't seem to care. I'll have that dollar now.

 

[Soft Serve]

I'm gonna give a dollar to whoever can read the huge *** leek post and tl;dr it for me

Puff is bad/campy/gets camped/lame/everyone else does her jobs better
Giving her a chargeable rollout would fix I guess
The rest of the post is him saying we never gave him a chance and wrote everything he said off back when he came into the thread saying he was a top 3 falco main after lambchops and zhu

 

[Mean Green]

To be fair it was kinda fked up when he suggested the Rollout storage and got the idea immediately shut down on the basis of it beiing broken. Nobody even called that sht out. It sounded like a good idea, especially since Puff's bad enough to warrant her receiving a tool like that. Besides, Luigi gets Misfire storage.
Just because leek dude suggested it doesn't mean it needs to get bashed. Tbh that was pathetic, whoever did that.

 

[Frost | Odds]

[Anyone confused because of ignore list shenanigans, this is directed to leekslap, though you could've figured that out from the content]

EDIT: What a pretensious jerk. I was just trying to be nice. God I hate this place.

Sorry, dude. You made a very long string of profoundly unimpressive posts that led me to ignore you in defense of my sanity. As a result of this, I haven't had the opportunity or need to re-investigate the situation. So, you may or may not have deserved that jab.

Anyway, it's spelled pretentious, and I apologize for being a bit of a jerk.

[Top wall of orange text, mostly concerning rollout]

Actually, I agree entirely: rollout storage is a great idea, regardless of who suggested it. That said, I'd appreciate if you'd lose the homophobia. Using "gay" as a pejorative helps absolutely nobody, and mostly just makes you (or anyone else using the term in that fashion) look like a jerk.

Give me a chance.

Believe this, then: I've been where you are. Hell, I'd wager good money that most of the people here have. I was an obnoxious, highly opinionated 12 year old on a gaming forum (jesus christ, I'm old) literally 12 years ago, and I thought that everyone was picking on me just because.

They weren't. It took me a long time to learn some of this.

There are some jerks/trolls who will continue to give you crap, but if you actually want to be taken seriously, there are reasonable steps you can take:

• 1. Orange text. I understand wanting to express your individuality, but holy hell that hurts to read. Please stop.
• 2. Format using paragraphs.
• 3. Try not to post every thought that comes into your head. If you're absolutely sure about something, explain why. Do so in a reasonable fashion, and try not to take it personally when somebody disagrees.
• 4. If you're not absolutely sure about something, it's typically easier to ask what other people think and why, to form a more solid opinion yourself. Your opinions will carry more credibility when people are made aware that you do not articulate them willy-nilly.
• 5. Try not to assert that you're a top 3 falco player without some pretty solid evidence, heh
• 6. Understand that not most who comes across as dickish aren't trying to crush your spirit, and don't hold personal grudges against you. Typically, they simply don't take you seriously because in their estimation, you haven't earned it yet.
• 7. Haters gonn' hate. Git gud, prove them wrong.

I strongly, strongly recommend reading this book. It will help.

 

[GP&B]

Believe this, then: I've been where you are. Hell, I'd wager good money that most of the people here have. I was an obnoxious, highly opinionated 12 year old on a gaming forum (jesus christ, I'm old) literally 12 years ago, and I thought that everyone was picking on me just because.

I was wanting to say something along the lines of this and this is way better than what I would have come up with. So yeah.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

My 2 cents based on what I've seen out of 3.5
Maybe Viable

Peach
Bowser
Donkey Kong
Captain Falcon
Squirtle
Zelda
Tink
Lucario
Ike
Sonic

No

Also too many people sleep on Luigi. Ganon is still too hard to succeed with and will likely never win a major (prove me wrong, someone, please. Junebug, I'm begging you.) Captain Falcon is actually viable this version, you could probably slap him as the demarcator between top and bottom half in this game.

Basically people need to learn to edgeguard and platform pressure with Dorfman's new hover and then he'll be able to do things, Luc and Tink are definitely viable, I'm not even going to comment on your placement of Ike because I'm mortally insulted by it and f*** Fox.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I keep flip-flopping on the "Luigi's actually viable you goddamn scrubs, everyone's just sleeping on him" idea, but I love Luigi, and I've never been able to recreate with him the success I've had with basically any other character other than Puff.

Tink is definitely viable, but jesus christ his matchups against the spacies are awful.



Also just realized that my writing tone has been coming off as unusually British. This is what I get for listening to the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy audiobooks nonstop for the last couple weeks.

 

[Foo]

To be fair it was kinda fked up when he suggested the Rollout storage and got the idea immediately shut down on the basis of it beiing broken. Nobody even called that sht out. It sounded like a good idea, especially since Puff's bad enough to warrant her receiving a tool like that. Besides, Luigi gets Misfire storage.
Just because leek dude suggested it doesn't mean it needs to get bashed. Tbh that was pathetic, whoever did that.

It was just one person who disagreed, no one else had really commented on it. He suggested the roll out change, shairn(?) "shot it down" because he disagreed with it, then leek got upset about being "shot down" just because it was his idea. There are lots of people on both sides of that opinion, one person is a poor sample size.

On the topic of rollout charge, I don't think it's a good idea. It is an insane amount of power that would come out faster than people could react to. Jiggly could also jump off stage and charge it for free with little to no risk in most matchups. If it is full and hits you at 50%+, that's a stock. Plus, she can turn it around. That means you have to CONSTANTLY be in a position to block it. That limits your options heavily and is unfun. Samus and DK charge come out slowly and are only really useful on hard reads or combos. If you nerfed charge rollout to the point it wouldn't be her B&B, it would be almost completely useless.

The only way it would work would be to make it more like sonic down b or squirtle side b, but everyone hates those, and PMDT is already against burst movement. I say give her the ganon treatment. Give her an upb that isn't completely useless that patches her weaknesses while complimenting her kick (and not being totally busted).

EDIT: Removed incomplete thought on ICs I will finish later lol.

 

[Soft Serve]

[X character] is definitely viable, but jesus christ his matchups against the spacies[+marth/Roy] are awful.

story of every PM character

 

[PlateProp]

I'm open to being persuaded that Squirtle is viable or even good, I just seriously haven't seen it. He's got a bunch of good tools, but they all seem like worse versions of someone else's - plus he can't pivot properly, plus his tech rolls suck, plus he's so damn light.

If you think this, you aren't going fast enough

Everyone knows Squirtle is faster than Sanik

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Give her a glide, a sword and a projectile

Or you know, just play Pit

 

[MagnesD3]

No

Also too many people sleep on Luigi. Ganon is still too hard to succeed with and will likely never win a major (prove me wrong, someone, please. Junebug, I'm begging you.) Captain Falcon is actually viable this version, you could probably slap him as the demarcator between top and bottom half in this game.

Basically people need to learn to edgeguard and platform pressure with Dorfman's new hover and then he'll be able to do things, Luc and Tink are definitely viable, I'm not even going to comment on your placement of Ike because I'm mortally insulted by it and f*** Fox.

I put them in the maybe section because I havent seen to much from them but I know that certain people made them look pretty solid but never got anywhere with them. I could see the ones you mentioned being viable tho, just havent seen much from them.

Needless to say there are a ton of viable characters, Pm is getting closer to their goal of striking almost perfect balance.

 

[Foo]

Give her a glide, a sword and a projectile

Or you know, just play Pit

She has the highest aerial mobiliy in the game, and some longer moves than pit too. Not sure that's totally fair. Since she her playstyle revolvers entirely around her aerial mobility, maybe give her something to compliment that. Something that can be wavebounced really well that somehow deals with projectiles. idk exactly, but something like lucas downb, but much different.

 

[MagnesD3]

I'm not too keen to rule ice climbers out. They seem like the default bad, but they could actually be pretty good. This is hardly an educated opinion, but I random'd iceclimbers and wrecked some sh


It was just one person who disagreed, no one else had really commented on it. He suggested the roll out change, shairn(?) "shot it down" because he disagreed with it, then leek got upset about being "shot down" just because it was his idea. There are lots of people on both sides of that opinion, one person is a poor sample size.

On the topic of rollout charge, I don't think it's a good idea. It is an insane amount of power that would come out faster than people could react to. Jiggly could also jump off stage and charge it for free with little to no risk in most matchups. If it is full and hits you at 50%+, that's a stock. Plus, she can turn it around. That means you have to CONSTANTLY be in a position to block it. That limits your options heavily and is unfun. Samus and DK charge come out slowly and are only really useful on hard reads or combos. If you nerfed charge rollout to the point it wouldn't be her B&B, it would be almost completely useless.

The only way it would work would be to make it more like sonic down b or squirtle side b, but everyone hates those, and PMDT is already against burst movement. I say give her the ganon treatment. Give her an upb that isn't completely useless that patches her weaknesses while complimenting her kick (and not being totally busted).

I always thought giving rollout the ability to be canceled with maybe a jump could be an interesting option or something and she retains the momentum after the cancel. (idk that might be too powerful.)

 

[~Dad~]

If you think this, you aren't going fast enough

Everyone knows Squirtle is faster than Sanik

Stop saying this Plate I'm going to fight you so hard.

 

[Mean Green]

I'm not too keen to rule ice climbers out. They seem like the default bad, but they could actually be pretty good. This is hardly an educated opinion, but I random'd iceclimbers and wrecked some sh


It was just one person who disagreed, no one else had really commented on it. He suggested the roll out change, shairn(?) "shot it down" because he disagreed with it, then leek got upset about being "shot down" just because it was his idea. There are lots of people on both sides of that opinion, one person is a poor sample size.

On the topic of rollout charge, I don't think it's a good idea. It is an insane amount of power that would come out faster than people could react to. Jiggly could also jump off stage and charge it for free with little to no risk in most matchups. If it is full and hits you at 50%+, that's a stock. Plus, she can turn it around. That means you have to CONSTANTLY be in a position to block it. That limits your options heavily and is unfun. Samus and DK charge come out slowly and are only really useful on hard reads or combos. If you nerfed charge rollout to the point it wouldn't be her B&B, it would be almost completely useless.

The only way it would work would be to make it more like sonic down b or squirtle side b, but everyone hates those, and PMDT is already against burst movement. I say give her the ganon treatment. Give her an upb that isn't completely useless that patches her weaknesses while complimenting her kick (and not being totally busted).

The main reason why I even posted was because it wasn't called out. Usually in forums when someone states something fallacious, someone else usually comes around and clears up the confusion. Everyone just looked the other way.
"On the topic of rollout charge, I don't think it's a good idea. It is an insane amount of power that would come out faster than people could react to." If you're competitive, and not on wifi, reacting to Rollout shouldn't be a problem. Also, how about addressing Misfire Storage. And even though it was in Melee, how about Shadow Ball. If a Falco or Falcon gets hit near a ledge by SB, that too could easily be his stock, even at 0, depending where Mewtwo is. Except that SB is a projectile that can cross the screen, and pose no risk to the Mewtwo who threw it. Idk if you can stop Rollout with a bomb on the ground, but it can easily be dodged, powershielded, countered, or meteored.

 

[Foo]

I always thought giving rollout the ability to be canceled with maybe a jump could be an interesting option or something and she retains the momentum after the cancel. (idk that might be too powerful.)

I think the balance for jiggly is much more delicate than it appears. The difference between samus being a highish mid character and a projected top tier was simply other characters getting nerfed, when she didn't get nerfed quite so hard. Jiggly was considerably worse than samus, but she didn't get touched at ALL. She's still bad, but giving her such a dramatic change could tip the scale the other way. Especially when it would change her playstyle dramtically. I think it's best to keep a characters play style as intact as possible during balance.

Also, that IC bit was supposed to be deleted lol., I'm going to finish that thought later xD

@ Mean Green You can't charge up to a stored misfire at any time, and misfire comes out MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH slower than rollout. It also is less powerful and is more dangerous to use. Human reaction time caps at around a tenth of a second, keep that in mind. If you made rollout come out as slow as illusion or wigi side b, that would make it nearly useless.

Also, there was nothing to really call out. Somebody posts an idea, someone else called it dumb. Standard forum practice imo.

 

[MagnesD3]

I think the balance for jiggly is much more delicate than it appears. The difference between samus being a highish mid character and a projected top tier was simply other characters getting nerfed, when she didn't get nerfed quite so hard. Jiggly was considerably worse than samus, but she didn't get touched at ALL. She's still bad, but giving her such a dramatic change could tip the scale the other way. Especially when it would change her playstyle dramtically. I think it's best to keep a characters play style as intact as possible during balance.

Also, that IC bit was supposed to be deleted lol., I'm going to finish that thought later xD

Theres also the option of making sing a taunt and/or cutting rollout for two/one new special moves (preferably fairy type or something) made at the pmbr's discretion.

This did wonders for Charizard and Ivysaur.

 

[PlateProp]

Stop saying this Plate I'm going to fight you so hard.

You really need to stop trying to get into my pants.

 

[Foo]

Theres also the option of making sing a taunt and/or cutting rollout for two/one new special moves (preferably fairy type or something) made at the pmbr's discretion.

This did wonders for Charizard and Ivysaur.

That would be the approach I would take with jiggles. As I said before, it would be really intersting if one of the new moves could be wavebounced for mobility. That combined with her aerial mobility could be very interesting.

 

[PootisKonga]

Making Sing a taunt is something I never would have imagined... It kinda makes sense seeing as Ganondorf also has a taunt with a tangible effect in battle (if useless most of the time)

 

[MagnesD3]

Hyper Voice and Dazzling Gleam? Who knows :z

 

[shairn]

Human reaction time is roughly 12-15 frames, which is 0.2 or 0.25 seconds, not one tenth of a second.
Of course, you can predict things and react to prior situations which means some moves faster than that can be "reacted" to.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I think the balance for jiggly is much more delicate than it appears. The difference between samus being a highish mid character and a projected top tier was simply other characters getting nerfed, when she didn't get nerfed quite so hard.

A lot of us actually were putting her in, or near top tier even in 3.02.

Jiggly was considerably worse than samus, but she didn't get touched at ALL. She's still bad, but giving her such a dramatic change could tip the scale the other way. Especially when it would change her playstyle dramtically. I think it's best to keep a characters play style as intact as possible during balance.

Typically, I'd agree - but it's clear that both Rollout and Sing are utterly useless and are thus the obvious places to look when considering buffs for Jigglypuff.

Straight up making rollout as it is a chargeable move may be silly (though even then she would probably be far from the best in the game) - but at least as silly is the idea that there are necessarily no possible changes accompanying the charge, that may make it appropriate.

The idea may or may not work in practice, but I still think it's a great idea.

I have no idea wtf to do about Sing.

 

[Mean Green]

I think the balance for jiggly is much more delicate than it appears. The difference between samus being a highish mid character and a projected top tier was simply other characters getting nerfed, when she didn't get nerfed quite so hard. Jiggly was considerably worse than samus, but she didn't get touched at ALL. She's still bad, but giving her such a dramatic change could tip the scale the other way. Especially when it would change her playstyle dramtically. I think it's best to keep a characters play style as intact as possible during balance.

Also, that IC bit was supposed to be deleted lol., I'm going to finish that thought later xD

@ Mean Green You can't charge up to a stored misfire at any time, and misfire comes out MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH slower than rollout. It also is less powerful and is more dangerous to use. Human reaction time caps at around a tenth of a second, keep that in mind. If you made rollout come out as slow as illusion or wigi side b, that would make it nearly useless.

Also, there was nothing to really call out. Somebody posts an idea, someone else called it dumb. Standard forum practice imo.

Looks like you just need to be right. And I'm sure I could powershield a random rollout 10/10 times, that's stuff a decent competitve player should be able to do. You mean to tell me that having people stay on their toes long enough to deal with a random rollout is asking too much? Reply however you want. I'm done posting.