Tier List Speculation

[BTmoney]

I am actually probably going to main Wolf in PM just to punish myself. He's interesting but he upsets me lol.

Also I compared him to sheik because I feel like he has a stupid tech chasing and aerial lag punishing game, in a good way.

 

[leelue]

Wolf is what we in the hood call "A fair character"

EDIT
Even thought that waveland nonsense is nonsense

 

[Strong Badam]

It's amusing how it seems that the only ways people are able to come up with to improve a character involve homogenization.

 

[BTmoney]

Ah, I find things like a circus amusing.
I wouldn't put it past anyone with brain activity to be able to think of something else. Suggesting otherwise is silly.
Suggesting homogenization just takes the least amount of words and effort while holding the same water.

However being different for the sake of being different does nothing. Homogenization is a good place to start. You can move away from it as designs and ideas progress.

Edit:
And it's consistent with the rest of the game, just like that. It's like it does the thinking for you!

 

[leelue]

It's amusing how it seems that the only ways people are able to come up with to improve a character involve homogenization.

You know that this isn't true at all.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You know that this isn't true at all.

I dunno. A lot of the "best" strengths are often cited as what appears to be the most effective boosts in pretty limited spots, like giving someone a better ledge game.

 

[Juushichi]

Believe it or not, Tachi.

If they kept the Brawl Wolf bair in its entirety, it would be so much better.

I mean, have you SEEN that ****ing move?

 

[Spiffykins]

Believe it or not, Tachi.

If they kept the Brawl Wolf bair in its entirety, it would be so much better.

I mean, have you SEEN that ****ing move?

How does it differ?

 

[Juushichi]

load normal brawl, pick wolf, bair and then pause and look at the move. then do the same in PM.

 

[BTmoney]

load normal brawl, pick wolf, bair and then pause and look at the move. then do the same in PM.

That certainly is believable
I just don't think that is the point, I think that the standard spacey bair hits in ways that are more useful which gets compounded by the fact that they have better other aerials than Wolf in the first place.

Wolf's dash attack though is a redeeming quality.

 

[Deleted member]

It's amusing how it seems that the only ways people are able to come up with to improve a character involve homogenization.

i think you could improve homogenization by nerfing sheik by restoring her prior backthrow. the mix-up potential is clearly too good on it. would you please do that for me?

i would also like it if she couldn't grab the edge backwards out of the poof. it makes very little difference for skilled play and lends to frustration otherwise i.e. "that's bull****" factor.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I've always felt like Wolf is probably just as good as the other spacies, it's just that he doesn't have 10 years of people using him to make him.. shine He's definitely different, but then Fox/Falco are quite different from one another, despite the fact that an uneducated eye would say they are exactly alike in every way.

 

[GunBlaze]

I've always felt like Wolf is probably just as good as the other spacies, it's just that he doesn't have 10 years of people using him to make him.. shine

This. People just don't get this part.

 

[ELI-mination]

I'm of the opinion that Fox and Falco are definitely better than Wolf due to some of their crazy attributes like Falco dair and Fox usmash, and both their nairs and utilts.

 

[DMG]

It's amusing how it seems that the only ways people are able to come up with to improve a character involve homogenization.

Well to be fair, there are instances where something is just blatantly worse without a good reason. A great example: the differences in Uthrows. Sure, Squirtle launching someone looks cool, but when it's wholly inefficient and not even comparable to normal CG/combo throws, changing his throw to be like the rest of the cast seems like a good idea. Same thing for sex kicks: most people would prefer something that works over something that's "different". Wolf's Nair isn't bad, but the comparison to the other Spacie Nairs is a fair one. Wolf just may be better off with a regular sex kick. Should it be changed? Idk. Wolf's Nair in comparison to those 2 is not so massively inferior that we "have" to change it. There's plenty more out there that fare worse when compared.

I've always felt like Wolf is probably just as good as the other spacies, it's just that he doesn't have 10 years of people using him to make him.. shine He's definitely different, but then Fox/Falco are quite different from one another, despite the fact that an uneducated eye would say they are exactly alike in every way.

I don't think he's just as good. The "lame" things about Fox and Falco are easier or function better (for the most part. Side B finisher is the biggest thing Wolf has over them, frankly maybe the only thing unless you want to make the Fox vs Wolf laser comparison.)

The #1 stated Wolf "thing" is his massive variety and flexibility in combos. I'm not too concerned about that UNLESS he finishes it with Side B. If he gets you offstage and threatens Dair, it's not like we've missed out on that experience with Falco's lame feet lol.

Edit: Eli covered it pretty well. Wolf just isn't as ridiculous: the 10 year argument just will not change the fact that Wolf's Spike is reasonable while Falco's is lame, that the other 2 Spacies do better in Neutral, and Side B Finish/recovery being the redeeming factor probably isn't enough to push him near their level. Wolf's up in the game somewhere, but grouped with the other Spacies is a bit of a stretch.

 

[Overswarm]

agreed with DMG.

It's not so much that people prefer everything to be the same, it's the fact that what's different isn't necessarily good. You don't hear complaints about Charizard's nair or Wolf's shine because even though they are different, they are effective. Wolf's nair isn't particularly safe in comparison to Fox or Falco's nair/dair, so it isn't as well qualified for the same purpose. If you could down+b out of Wolf's nair it'd be insanely different, but no one would complain about it being bad anymore!

It really boils down to "comparatively, is this useful". Wolf is a fairly balanced character that is very skill based and has the ability to "flow" very well in many unusual situations. That said, Fox and Falco are not balanced characters in the slightest in that they have ridiculous moves that aren't even close to being rivaled. Fox's nair/dair approach is literally safe in all but a small handful of situations, they're projectiles are easy to use and force approaches (or in Falco's case, allow him to approach as well), Falco's dair is a true spike that is stupid easy to hit with and on its own can hit 3 times if someone misses their first tech, Fox has a super fast u-smash that kills early and a u-air that fits the same purpose aerially...

Wolf is just a well balanced character and Fox and Falco were never brought "down" to his level. He's definitely a solid character, it's just he's so comparable to Fox and Falco in terms of what can be done to him and the likelihood of dying when offstage that you're basically picking varieties of the same fruit. Fox and Falco have legitimate differences between the two that make certain matchups harder or easier, but I don't see Wolf being an advantaged pick in their company.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Jigglypuff confirmed for Sonic counter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgHgbs7mKDE

On a serious note, though, it would be nice to see footstools get more use, though. Footstool -> instant waveland should be ballin'.

 

[Scythe]

footstool is interesting but I don't play with modified controls and I actually use every button for something.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Jigglypuff confirmed for Sonic counter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgHgbs7mKDE

On a serious note, though, it would be nice to see footstools get more use, though. Footstool -> instant waveland should be ballin'.

All the more reason to apply footstools with this character.

"Phantom" footstools are still in right?

 

[GMaster171]

Well with Wolf I have been trying to get nair->footstool to work offstage, I have gotten it a few times already, its just I'm not used to the hitbox (idk where exactly it is, so I miss every once in awhile). I also have been testing to see if ledgehop->nair->footstool catches people who are on the very edge, like when someone misses an edgeguard with an attack that moves them forward (TL f-smash for example). Havent got this to work yet, but havent really tested it yet.

 

[DMG]

Does footstool to rest work for Jiggs if the opponent is also airborne?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If it does, I imagine it would work on an entirely different set of characters. It's limited as it is because of how deep in the opponent's frames she is against the vulnerable characters. IASA on a successful footstool is Frame 9, so that gives them time to fall, you know?

 

[Spiffykins]

Well to be fair, there are instances where something is just blatantly worse without a good reason. A great example: the differences in Uthrows. Sure, Squirtle launching someone looks cool, but when it's wholly inefficient and not even comparable to normal CG/combo throws, changing his throw to be like the rest of the cast seems like a good idea. Same thing for sex kicks: most people would prefer something that works over something that's "different". Wolf's Nair isn't bad, but the comparison to the other Spacie Nairs is a fair one. Wolf just may be better off with a regular sex kick. Should it be changed? Idk. Wolf's Nair in comparison to those 2 is not so massively inferior that we "have" to change it. There's plenty more out there that fare worse when compared.

What if his nair stalled him more instead, like Fox's dair? I'd rather it was this way instead of just giving him a sex kick, but I do feel his nair is slightly lacking as is. Slightly.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Well to be fair, there are instances where something is just blatantly worse without a good reason. A great example: the differences in Uthrows. Sure, Squirtle launching someone looks cool, but when it's wholly inefficient and not even comparable to normal CG/combo throws, changing his throw to be like the rest of the cast seems like a good idea. Same thing for sex kicks: most people would prefer something that works over something that's "different".

I was thinking more about D-throws, since some U-throws are meant to kill.


Though U-throws that combo into kill moves are already basically better at doing both lol

 

[k9.]

Hey peeps, i got 2nd this past weekend and got vids of it.

Here are my vids vs silly kyle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VH6OnSBt79Y set 1 in gf

Set 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i87WJ1VlY6E

My set in LF vs Nazo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAvrCPJMnoM Enjoy guys.

I am going to prove that ness is higher than what he is on your guys tier list.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Good luck with your endeavors from a fellow Ness user. It'll take quite a bit of impressive showing against a variety of high caliber players of each character to fully convince me the character isn't bad.

 

[Bryonato]

Hey peeps, i got 2nd this past weekend and got vids of it.

Here are my vids vs silly kyle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VH6OnSBt79Y set 1 in gf

Set 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i87WJ1VlY6E

My set in LF vs Nazo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAvrCPJMnoM Enjoy guys.

I am going to prove that ness is higher than what he is on your guys tier list.

well with you and SinB on the move I think we'll find at least some success

 

[GMaster171]

*cries that I'm not considered good Ness*

lol, most people got some work to do before they can show what hes truly able to do imo.

 

[Bryonato]

tbh GMaster I've never seen you play D: I'm subscribed to AznProjectMelee and I watch Dazrin's stream a lot so I've seen a lot of both of them.

EDIT: I do feel Ness' metagame is going to have to develop for awhile. I think Sin has it the most figured out at the moment but I'm excited to see where things go.

 

[GMaster171]

np, I'm joking honestly, I realize its hard to ask for credit when I have nothing but a few month old friendlies to show of myself. The only thing I can give is what I say and see about others, which isn't the most reliable thing. If you do need a comparison, my friends relate my play to SinisterB's, and I find I do many things the same, but still the same amount different as he does. I doubt I'm as technically sound as he is, but my understanding seems to be near his lol.

I'm in that situation where I feel I am skilled, and I beat my close friends and go equal with most others, but am in a area that doesn't have much P:M yet.
Meh, I'll just work with what I have.

 

[Bryonato]

I know that feel. Welcome to Lewiston, Idaho. There is literally no PM scene here.

 

[Spoon~]

No way GaW is bottom. Bushleague. Shananigans.

 

[SpiderMad]

I made a list

Using Oro's tier list as base (doesn't mean much since I'm changing the hell out of it)

A slash means they're equal

Spoiler

A+ Tier- Slightly outliers
Fox
Falco

A Tier- Very strong characters and contend for wrestling tournaments.
Sheik/Donkey Kong/Bowser/Pit
Zelda
Sonic/Mario/Charizard
Marth

B Tier- Tournament Viable and have few flaws or bad hair days.
Peach/Wolf
Link/Diddy Kong/ROB/Wario/Snake
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff/ Lucario (2.1 A+ tier)

C Tier- The third letter of the alphabet
DDD/ ZSS
Ivysaur/ Lucas / Luigi / Toon Link / Pikachu
Ike (2.1 A+ tier)/ Squirtle/ Ness/ GnW

What The F**** HAPPENED TO MY SOUL Tier
Ike/ Sandbag/ Nickelback/ Animated Fox shows

 

[Oracle]

Other than lucas gnw and ness in bottom and diddy not in A thats probably the best list yet

 

[CyberZixx]

Why is Jiggs considered so much worse in the overall tier list compared to Melee?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Characters are better equipped to fight her because of the universal changes as well as the improvements a lot of the individual characters got. Many of the Brawl characters were already built to space her decently well, too. RAR and pivot grab both help against her a fair amount.

 

[Jolteon]

A lot of characters in Project M are well equipped to deal with Puff, imo.

 

[DMG]

I wouldn't put her in the bottom half of the game because of that though. Like, 10 - 15+ new or buffed characters firmly ahead of her doesn't sound right. Her MU spread tightened up, just not by that many tier list spots.

 

[Plum]

Jiggles will improve in time. I wouldn't expect to see her at her former glory, but I would certainly expect improvement as Jigglypuff players learn to deal with new characters, improved recoveries, and the like.
She's not a technical character, but she's very thought intensive. You have to be very smart to play her well, and you really can't expect a Jiggs player to just walk into new matchups and play them optimally.
I agree that there are characters that are better suited to fight her, but I wouldn't count her out by any means.

 

[Deleted member]

i don't think jigglypuff will ever be a tournament threat in this game. she's too boring and people don't want to play her. in melee her raw goodness offsets how boring she is, but in a game where she's only mediocre i'd say not a chance.

i don't think ness will ever be a real character either.

not to say that they should be changed, i think they're fine as-is. i just don't see them performing well.

/pure speculation