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Tier List Speculation

JOE!

JOE!

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DMG said:
It doesn't even have to be disjoint specifically: Zard gets around fine with holy batman Nair because it's the size of 30 Smashballs
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Marth has slightly better grab range than zard

and Zard has a bunch of disjoints

he's faster than marth too

def high tier
 
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Chesstiger2612

Chesstiger2612

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Vashimus said:


Is this still the case though?
Click to expand...
It is still the case, I tested

Empyrean said:
DDD, Bowser and DK all have longer grab ranges. That is not to say that Marth's range isn't ridiculous.
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Marth still outgrabs them most of the time because his hurtbox is not as far stretched from the environmental collusion point (?; dont really know how it is called), so you have to also weigh in hurtbox size, basically. Also in a realgame situation higher mobility is also a buff to your grab range because of the few frames to move before grabs come out, so you can run away from enemy grabs more easily which will have the result they can't grab at the maximum of their range because you could escape, the result is that your effective grab range in comparison to theirs is even better.
 
1FD

1FD

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Chesstiger2612 said:
It is still the case, I tested


Marth still outgrabs them most of the time because his hurtbox is not as far stretched from the environmental collusion point (?; dont really know how it is called), so you have to also weigh in hurtbox size, basically. Also in a realgame situation higher mobility is also a buff to your grab range because of the few frames to move before grabs come out, so you can run away from enemy grabs more easily which will have the result they can't grab at the maximum of their range because you could escape, the result is that your effective grab range in comparison to theirs is even better.
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It's like how Falcon has a bigger grab than marth but for some reason it's INSIDE HIS BODY almost the whole way
Melee for lyfe
 
BJN39

BJN39

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Vashimus said:


Is this still the case though?
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Hold on, that's a Melee thingy,

isn't yoshi's nose's hurt-box in that game like, 20 smash balls long? (In front of him.) That would explain why he could get grabbed from that far.

Try grabbing another (similar sized.) character from there.
 
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1FD

1FD

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So I talked to bamesy
WE BOTH THINK MARTH IS A BOTTOM 15 CHARACTER
So it's tier list related but kind of goes off
So first we talked about that and why he thinks so, but then I asked him what he would love to see happen to Marth and he said this.
Which I've seen him post in this thread before ages ago basically.
Which also basically talks about WHY WE THINK MARTH IS BOTTOM 15
I think he said he thinks Marth is more BOTTOM 10 but lol he's crazier than me
But yeah here's the skype convo

[3:06:13 PM] Bamesy Ross: His Shield Breaker needs to absolutely CRUSH shields.
[3:42:13 PM] SUPERBALL: So like he can go SB > SB combo for kills at mid high % but only if he gets their shield low first
[7:05:43 PM] SUPERBALL: Even going SB first can weaken a shield and make it scary
[7:06:40 PM] SUPERBALL: That would give him good shield poking stuff at more scary % too
[7:40:43 PM] SUPERBALL: It's better in PM but I don't know how much, maybe twice as good as Melee at least.
[8:37:32 PM] Bamesy Ross: It's not good enough for what it could do for him/what other traits do for others.
[8:37:42 PM] Bamesy Ross: High % > Shield > Can't lose
[8:37:46 PM] Bamesy Ross: Classic Marth issues are wide-spread plagues now, this is one of the classics.
[9:21:26 PM] SUPERBALL: HAAAAAA
[9:23:01 PM] SUPERBALL: So why SB and not other things?
[9:25:03 PM] Bamesy Ross: It's an easy example of a really cool trait that could be brought out of his game more.
[9:25:13 PM] Bamesy Ross: Brings in a unique Shield pressure dynamic that Marth can threaten an opponent with, that nobody else can.
[9:25:18 PM] Bamesy Ross: Unlike his regular stuff/the stuff everyone has to some extent... he has a dynamic to watch for, BREAKING SHIELDS for the kill, as a built-in mix-up out of everything from combo-resets/chases to raw neutral-breaking.
[9:25:45 PM] Bamesy Ross: There are some things that eventually become more fluent as the meta-game grows, but Shield Breaker as it is probably won't cut it as that kind of luxury, (because it's on Marth and not someone else) and Marth could use that kind of thing.
[9:25:49 PM] Bamesy Ross: If Marth is running at someone, and SB was at least decent, there would be a presence around the character when at higher/any %/a conditional thing to watch for (how is your shield?).
[9:25:52 PM] Bamesy Ross: Which is essentially what has fallen off from him in PM... presence on the field.
[9:25:57 PM] Bamesy Ross: He's still solid of course, but his game will always be simple.
[9:26:00 PM] Bamesy Ross: He has to be a game-winning character 'within' the simplicity.
[10:01:30 PM] SUPERBALL: So basically it gives him something that nobody has but stays within his character which is simple, like how at high % shielding WOULD STILL actually kind of be scary against him if your shield is evven 25% gone off like blocking a Fair or something, and at low % with a weak shield it could lead to a broken shield for a free Grab Combo and Marth loves those. Or just make it scary to shield too much against him so he might have more of a chance to get raw hits in from epic spacing/SB mix-up mind-games.
[10:52:04 PM] Bamesy Ross: Sounds fun.
[10:52:07 PM] Bamesy Ross: I'd also consider making a lot of the Up-B hitboxes more... lethal.
[10:52:15 PM] Bamesy Ross: Make his combos more DI mix-up dependant, as the mental-game getting attention in punish-game is key to making a good-game... (just like the SB thing) but it gets to a point for Marth...
[10:52:51 PM] Bamesy Ross: Well at least against anyone not spacie-like in PM...
[10:52:55 PM] SUPERBALL: Which is like everyone almost
[10:52:56 PM] Bamesy Ross: :p
[10:53:20 PM] Bamesy Ross: Where getting out of 'Death By Marth' situations isn't really that difficult or special.
[10:53:30 PM] Bamesy Ross: The medthods/DI/things to avoid are the same with them all at the 'base' too.
[10:53:55 PM] Bamesy Ross: No real more-than-one-time ways of 'tricking' people into DIing to their death/spike/Up-B/tipper/no PHYRE.
[10:54:02 PM] Bamesy Ross: Maybe if Up-B was more lethal in the middle of the 'Rising' part...
[10:55:19 PM] Bamesy Ross: Maybe a new way of seeing Marth combo or look for combos into kills would show up instead of a twist to aiming for raw F/D/U-Smashes/UTils/UpBs like the Melee meta-game has been inevitably going.
[10:57:33 PM] Bamesy Ross: At least there wouldn't be a guaranteed 'Out' from getting 'Marth'd' via DIing his combos away from barely a couple niche situations you don't want to be in... due to having more to DI 'Out' from regarding finishing the combo... and it doesn't change his simple neutral either (mid-Up-B would be tough to connect with but I'd love to see it work off bad-DI'd U-Tilts/Dash-Attacks at lower % and poorly DI'd due to the mix-up and getting kills lol)
[10:57:41 PM] SUPERBALL: How to tldr
[10:57:46 PM] Bamesy Ross: TL;DR versions
[10:58:05 PM] Bamesy Ross: Instead of 'fixing/improving' him by making more disjoints or speed or recovery or something...
[10:58:29 PM] Bamesy Ross: A lot of his position in the game is based off the presence/complexity/dynamics he needs to have within his simplistic game.
[10:58:42 PM] Bamesy Ross: Shield Breaker allows him to have a threatening dynamic that could lead to kills at any %, but remains very conditional.
[10:59:09 PM] Bamesy Ross: If Shield Breaker was on almost any other character, it would be great as-is, but it's on Marth, who either Grabs or Dtilts/Fairs at most for Shield pressure almost exclusively, at any % too.
[10:59:14 PM] Bamesy Ross: It's dynamics that affect his game by opening it up, great conditions for him balance-wise and flexibility within his own game, and unique to the game at large.
[10:59:46 PM] Bamesy Ross: Next, niche finisher he can lead into via his other standard already-connected punishes on more of the floaty cast, giving the mental side of DI-game more significance. Mid Up-B straight/non-reversed hitboxes being as lethal as the initial reverse.
[10:59:52 PM] Bamesy Ross: I'd stick with those 2 things before anything else for Marth-tweaks.
[10:59:59 PM] SUPERBALL: K Imma paste a chunk of this
 
DMG

DMG

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I dunno about bottom 15 or even bottom half of the cast. Marth isn't complete ****, he's just not a Special Pretty Princess™ anymore
 
DrinkingFood

DrinkingFood

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If you think QAC is a gimmick you haven't seen anther
It's basically teleport with hitboxes and distance mix-ups, but no invinc
 
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Hinichii.ez.™

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If you think Marth is in the bottom half of the cast; may The Lord have mercy on your soul.
 
D

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i think marth is in the 15-20 range. i think marth is overrated but in the bottom half of the cast is just crazy imo
 
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Pseudomaniac

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To be honest, I think Marth being low tier would be kinda cool. It would mean almost every character in the game would fall into Melee's A tier, and I think that's pretty awesome.

That being said, he definitely isn't especially in the current, highly Melee-influenced meta. Just because he's no longer "special" doesn't mean he's no longer useful.

Unrelated, what do you guys think about Luigi's viability? As a Luigi main, I tend to struggle a lot due to some weird sweetspots (Green Missile's ledge sweetspot and Dair's spike sweetspot especially), his lack of neutral game options (people catch on to weaving in and out with wavedashes fast, he can't SHFFL and his fireballs are one of the worst projectiles in the game), and his rather pathetic recovery in general. Essentially, I'm not experienced to know if I'm missing something important or if Luigi needs some minor buffs, and I'd really like to know since he's probably my favorite main.
 
didds

didds

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Pseudomaniac said:
To be honest, I think Marth being low tier would be kinda cool. It would mean almost every character in the game would fall into Melee's A tier, and I think that's pretty awesome.

That being said, he definitely isn't especially in the current, highly Melee-influenced meta. Just because he's no longer "special" doesn't mean he's no longer useful.

Unrelated, what do you guys think about Luigi's viability? As a Luigi main, I tend to struggle a lot due to some weird sweetspots (Green Missile's ledge sweetspot and Dair's spike sweetspot especially), his lack of neutral game options (people catch on to weaving in and out with wavedashes fast, he can't SHFFL and his fireballs are one of the worst projectiles in the game), and his rather pathetic recovery in general. Essentially, I'm not experienced to know if I'm missing something important or if Luigi needs some minor buffs, and I'd really like to know since he's probably my favorite main.
Click to expand...
@ ELI-mination ELI-mination ask this guy, he's gahlik o somthin
 
D

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Warning Received
eli thinks everything is amazing, especially himself

NY is hype as **** tho
 
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ELI-mination

ELI-mination

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My opinion tier wise of Luigi is low. I only win with him because he has shenanigans and I'm gahlike, but his throws all lead to nothing when your opponent knows what DI is. Also if fox shines Luigi absolutely anywhere on stage you should be dead if the fox is good.

Marth imo is high tier, like top 10,and I've been using him a lot more in friendlies with my crew (doing way better than with dk and Luigi btw). I haven't attended a tournament since sktar, not even weekly locals, though. And I don't plan to for a while.
 
jtm94

jtm94

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Sonic is incredibly good still, but no one enjoys playing as or against him for anyone to know besides Wizzrobe. Get that man a medal.

Teleport without invincibility sounds pretty bad to me. Good Thing Quick Attack has such disjointed hitboxes on it.
 
DrinkingFood

DrinkingFood

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I find it amusing that the only B-reversal that creates any noticeable effect for Gannon is his most useless move.
It's like "Yeah, we could have improved ganon's movement ever so slightly by allowing him to benefit from the new techs brought about by the Melee->brawl->PM transition... OOOORRR Warlock Punch."
 
jtm94

jtm94

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I feel like wavebounced Wizard Kick or Side B would look weird since they are movement options already. That's like Ike wavebouncing his Side B.... Unless that is possible?
 
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