Tier List Speculation

[Oddyesy]

are we just stating our favorite characters and seeing how many people can tell us that theyre bad? ok fine **** it



get to it, nerds

guys im kidding lets not turn this into the SRK umvc3 tier list thread please

KIRBY SUCKS; MELEE SAID SO

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

Your sig makes me uncomfortable, Accelerator.

 

[Vashimus]

holy **** you guys are bad at reading.

M2K is talking about the big picture. He says that it's ridiculous to expect new players to go head to head with spacies mains from melee/himself because while the analogy isn't perfect, melee players have a huge head start in terms of learning smash/their characters.
M2K says that you need to take the above into consideration when making a speculative tier list (i.e. fox and falco won't get much better but the latent potential of all the new characters is much bigger than he thinks you suppose. Just because there aren't any amazing [insert character] mains does not mean that that character is bad.)
M2K says that you need to take it into consideration again when making balance/design decisions and that bad decision-making that caters to mid-level/obvious gameplay is what allows for unnecessarily drastic buffs/nerfs to happen.

There is 0 reason that kels (being a very solid smash player with years on years of fox exp) should be losing to no-name players that pick Link. The Link mains in question agree if you ask them.
When Link gets nerfed (we all know it's coming) in all probability 0 of these link players will remain top-players. We've seen it happen with every single balance patch. M2K thinks that that's a warning that your game has a lot of bad design in it. He thinks that a game should reward good players over good characters. You should think that too.


But then you all go and argue semantics.

Get this garbage out of here. I don't care if you're a top player in game made 12 years ago by Japanese developers who didn't even know how to wavedash. You don't deserve to win any more than anyone else does, just like you are not entitled to your character being unchanged any more than any other character. You lost because you got outplayed, plain and simple.

 

[robosteven]

are we just stating our favorite characters and seeing how many people can tell us that theyre bad? ok fine **** it



get to it, nerds

Kirby's cool and I wish he had sunglasses

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

There is no point in maining a character that isn't top 10 in the game. I still use in some matchups and in doubles.

Goddamn, you're a scrub.

 

[robosteven]

I'm actually extremely curious on what you guys think Olimar could use. I don't think his semi-reliable recovery alone places him at the bottom. What's wrong with him that needs to be changed?

 

[Seagull Joe]

Get this garbage out of here. I don't care if you're a top player in game made 12 years ago by Japanese developers who didn't even know how to wavedash. You don't deserve to win any more than anyone else does, just like you are not entitled to your character unchanged any more than any other character. You lost because you got outplayed, plain and simple.

While I agree with this statement, people cannot ignore the fact that some characters have a significant ability to spam priority to easy combos and rarely get gimped in comparison to others.

 

[_Accelerator]

Your sig makes me uncomfortable, Accelerator.

In all honesty I really like Olimar, I just found this very humorous when I saw it, what with all the Olimar hate going on and whatnot.

 

[steelguttey]

olimar needs a teleport then he would be balanced

sign me up for pm backroom im ready to go

 

[the wizard howl]

M2K (and you) are fools for not even considering there may be players in melee that do not play the spacies or a good character. Lazarond could very well play link in melee and you and M2K are saying that because he couldn't make it to the top of melee with Link or become famous that he is less skilled and "should" lose to Kels.
Kels is a great fox, but does he have Years of experience of what new link can do? absolutely not and neither does M2K. his options have changed dramatically and what I hear is that because kels could probably shut down laz's link in melee, he should shut down his link in PM which is stupid to hear

I hear you about learning MUs. In that post I was primarily summarizing m2k's as best I could because apparently it is hard to approach.

I don't think that this is about Link so much as it's about broader design/popular opinion tendencies within the PM scene.
(I'm an hour from chicago, I'm familiar with who's stand-out and who isn't in the area. I know that Lazarond is not a solid melee Link. That being said, yes it's definitely possible for a non-spacie to do better in PM because their character is better. What I mean to bring under discussion is that the opposite is also true. I do firmly believe that players winning tournaments and then dropping off the spectrum after character nerfs is indicative of bad design.)

While having to learn new MUs is definitely a real thing, so is the PMBR overcompensating in every which direction.

 

[_Accelerator]

Olimar needs what they did to Lucario: a way to keep up with momentum and applying pressure. With Lucario they gave him an aura stock every spawn, maybe they can give him 2 or 3 pikmin every spawn to keep up?

 

[j00t]

Spoiler

Spoiler

You have yet to argue what you think is wrong with what M2K said.

 

[steelguttey]

i gotta admit olimar's aerial game is pretty cool as long as your enemy doesnt have anything that looks like a sword if they do you are ****ed

or a projectile

or any edgeguarding at all

 

[PiBs]

olimar needs a teleport then he would be balanced

sign me up for pm backroom im ready to go

I sadly think this is what they do to fix a lot of characters. The recoveries on most characters in the game are ridiculous. Playing gimp characters like Kirby and Puff have become a lot harder.

 

[B.W.]

If Olimar were to receive a change, starting with 3 random Pikmin when he respawns would certainly be acceptable.

 

[Bleck]

I do firmly believe that players winning tournaments and then dropping off the spectrum after character nerfs is indicative of bad design.

'Cause nobody would have ever dropped out of the spectrum if Fox or Falco had (somehow) been nerfed, am I right?

 

[steelguttey]

I sadly think this is what they do to fix a lot of characters. The recoveries on most characters in the game are ridiculous. Playing gimp characters like Kirby and Puff have become a lot harder.

new game mode: instead of dodging, your character now teleports behind the enemy wherever they are on the screen.

 

[Empyrean]

#tranqsucks. I feel this is absolutely relevant now.

 

[Ripple]

I sadly think this is what they do to fix a lot of characters. The recoveries on most characters in the game are ridiculous. Playing gimp characters like Kirby and Puff have become a lot harder.

Dedede seems to have no problem with gimping

 

[_Accelerator]

If Olimar were to receive a change, starting with 3 random Pikmin when he respawns would certainly be acceptable.

I've been thinking this for awhile and believe this is what he needs.

 

[Daouzin]

Wow, all I see is M2K being 100% accurate (minus Link johns) and people being salty that they weren't good at Melee (and projecting, heavily), but believe they are amazing (somehow) in PM. Right now every local scene of PM has a different tier list and probably has a character they all hate. In AZ, Bowser is winning PM tournaments and that's awesome, but let's not lose sight of the fact that M2K probably does know what he's talking about and if he doesn't, that sucks for us, but he's not trying to misguide us, so let's maybe respect his voice.

If you want your voice to be relevant, win PM tournaments, otherwise don't expect people to take you seriously. Everyone can theory-craft, but like any profession, I don't trust someone that studies carpentry, I trust the carpenter that actually does carpentry.

Props to these people:

you guys wanted the opinion of a top level player? There, you got it

I can guarantee that all of you are gonna disagree with everything he says lol

lol m2k is so correct about everything its hurting my skin

holy **** you guys are bad at reading. M2K is talking about the big picture.

 

[Vashimus]

Spoiler

You have yet to argue what you think is wrong with what M2K said.

I like you.

I actually agree with M2K on a lot of his points. I don't, however, hold everything he believes as gospel on the merit of being a top player, especially when many other top players have been involved with P:M much longer than he has.

 

[Bleck]

Wow, all I blahblah

yaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn

If you want your voice to be relevant, win PM tournaments,

Unless it's with Link, I guess

 

[the wizard howl]

'Cause nobody would have ever dropped out of the spectrum if Fox or Falco had (somehow) been nerfed, am I right?

uh, partly
I'd probably respond to that by saying that PAL changes are better than many in PM's history. Intelligent and conservative tweaks > overhauls.

 

[Hylian]

Guys, I'm looking at this right now and Link's standing grab is 84 frames total, while dash and pivot are 94 frames total.

Did you account for the gct FSM?

 

[trash?]

every other character in the game is P R O B A B L Y O P

this is because I play a character that in a game made 13 years ago had zero negative matchups, and now I have to put in actual effort when fighting new characters. adaptability is hard, please nerf everyone (except for the character I play)

WELCOME TO BALANCE DISCUSSION

 

[Bleck]

Can I like the above post twice? Let's just assume that I did.

I'd probably respond to that by saying that PAL changes are better than many in PM's history.

yeah that 1% nerf on the upsmash really made an enormous difference, etc.

 

[ELI-mination]

So basically only if you played melee and used Fox for a while, that's the only way to determine if you're actually a skillful player

GOT IT

*jots down valuable information into notebook*

I'm ready for the test guys

 

[Hylian]

All tethers frame data(yay monkunit):

1. Ivysaur
2. Standing - Total: 44, Grab: 14-17
3. Pivot - Total: 35, Grab: 14-15
4. Dash - Total: 33, Grab: 14-15
5. 
   
6. Link
7. Standing - Total: 62, Grab: 11-13, 14-19
8. Pivot - Total: 58, Grab: 13-14, 15-20
9. Dash - Total: 61, Grab: 12-13, 14-19
10. 
    
11. Lucas
12. Standing - Total: 56, Grab: 11-14, 15-16
13. Pivot - Total: 48, Grab: 14-18
14. Dash - Total: 79, Grab: 15-17, 18-27
15. 
    
16. Samus
17. Standing - Total: 72, Grab: 14-15, 16-24
18. Pivot - Total: 69, Grab: 19-21, 22-31
19. Dash - Total: 65, 17-19, 20-30
20. 
    
21. Toon Link
22. Standing - Total: 62, Grab: 11-13, 14-19
23. Pivot - Total: 58, Grab: 13-14, 15-20
24. Dash - Total: 60, 12-13, 14-19
25. 
    
26. Yoshi
27. Standing - Total: 50, Grab: 11-12, 13-21
28. Pivot - Total: 35, Grab: 11-12, 13-21
29. Dash - Total: 49, Grab: 11-12, 13-22
30. Neutral-B - Total: 39, Grab: 17-18, 19-21
31. 
    
32. Zero Suit Samus
33. Standing - Total: 67, Grab: 16-20, 21-29
34. Pivot - Total: 73, Grab: 11-14, 15-23
35. Dash - Total: 79, Grab: 16-20, 21-35

 

[FloeNew]

I was just minding my own business this one time talking FalcoVFox in playstyle and then M2K dropped by. Then **** got kinda heavy and I feel vaguely responsible. So, umm uh sorry?

 

[HaZarD2kv]

I believe that this "list" is just too early. We need indefinite results from multiple tournaments located all throughout, as long as some notable mentions are there, I think even smaller tourneys should factor into character placement. I played M2K at KiT and we had really close sets and I took a couple games from him.....with Toon Link and Luigi. I hardly go to tournaments though sadly, and I'm sure there are some other people in the same boat. A lot of skill, not enough MU and tournament experience. The game needs to be out for a while (without constant minor updates) for this tier list to be viable. It's just too soon for this to be legit.

 

[Osennecho]

I was just minding my own business this one time talking FalcoVFox in playstyle and then M2K dropped by. Then **** got kinda heavy and I feel vaguely responsible. So, umm uh sorry?

Nah this was due for a long time. The problem with M2K's posts (while often right/highly accurate) is that he treats them as if they are always right by nature of his wording (unintentional or not on his part) and then posts after or in it that he could be wrong. Thus they breed conflict.
Especially since when he says a character is broken, --imo-- that's one of the times he is most often wrong.
At least this is how it appears to me. Not sure if I'm the only one.

 

[steelguttey]

asking a fighting game community not to make a tier list before the first 9 months is like asking nintendo to listen to fans :^)

 

[_Accelerator]

Did you account for the gct FSM?

No, there is a Frame Speed Modifier of 1.091x on the Dash Attack that I didn't see

 

[fabulouspants]

every other character in the game is P R O B A B L Y O P

this is because I play a character that in a game made 13 years ago had zero negative matchups, and now I have to put in actual effort when fighting new characters. adaptability is hard, please nerf everyone (except for the character I play)

WELCOME TO BALANCE DISCUSSION

yup lol exactly what i'm trying to say i'm actually one of the best PM players in my house ( i live alone btw) and ive always said if fox/falco had one bad matchup GODLIKE players would start bodying them with link/kirby/etc what have you. m2k and mango actually are pretty mediocre when u think about it. IMO.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Goddamn, you're a scrub.

Whatever nets me profit at the end of the day is the character I will use in PM. I've already won about $150 off this game when I've only played it seriously for one month.

 

[robosteven]

Whatever nets me profit at the end of the day is the character I will use in PM.

 

[the wizard howl]

So basically only if you played melee and used Fox for a while, that's the only way to determine if you're actually a skillful player

Dude, semantics.
Kels is a good player. With or without fox. PM could be doing a better job of anticipating how their balance changes will play out so that things like sonic being stupid good or sonic being nerfed to hell don't have to happen. That's it.
Players should win because they're good not because their character is broken/brokenish. PM has shades of both going on and it should pay more attention to curbing/understanding that.

[edit] examples: I liked ivysaur's razorleaf nerfs because they targeted what was stupid and mostly only what was stupid while preserving the character's sort of integrity. Ivysaur as a whole isn't affected, she's just less dependent on one undesirable technique.
Link's boomerang was a bad buff because combined with the rest of his arsenal it makes for weirdly polarized and radically different decision-making (in a detrimental way).

 

[WINK ;)]

That a was very long tl:dr lol

Squirtle is secretly god. I know it.

Squirtle, Ganon, and Bowser are top tier against Noobs. FACT.

 

[HyperrCrow]

1. Zero Suit Samus
2. Standing - Total: 67, Grab: 16-20, 21-29
3. Pivot - Total: 73, Grab: 11-14, 15-23
4. Dash - Total: 79, Grab: 16-20, 21-35

Make ZSS's grab last the same amount as Lucas' for one build, please. Think of the possibilities, THE POWER.