Tier List Speculation

[mechtroid]

Semirelated, m2k: Do you think it might be good for the metagame for the old melee mains to be slightly less strong than the other characters when mastered, until the metagame is more developed, so that more people are encouraged to master a character like link, bowser, or G&W instead of what all of the old melee pros are playing? In essence, make characters like fox, falco, and mario less appealing so the depth of the rest of the cast can "catch up" to the head-start the earlier characters got from melee players. Obviously this would require the PM team to continue to make subtle tweaks to balance for a continued period of time, not like the dumb sonic changes from 2.5 to 2.6 you mentioned.

 

[Hylian]

Grab
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Total: 85
Grabs: 12-19
NOTE: Image doesn't show the Clawshot portion of the grabbox because BrawlBox doesn't show articles.

I don't know where information concerning his JCG or DCG could be found, but here are the frames for his standard grab.

For comparison, DDD's grab comes out on frame 7-8

Sorry did I say 50 frames? I meant EIGHTY FIVE. How a top player can not punish a whiffed 85 frame move is beyond me.

 

[jalued]

Sorry did I say 50 frames? I meant EIGHTY FIVE. How a top player can not punish a whiffed 85 frame move is beyond me.

To be fair, this is only the frames for his standard (obsolete) grab. Any chance you have the brawlbox frames stored somewhere for his JC grab?

 

[KingDozie]

Sorry did I say 50 frames? I meant EIGHTY FIVE. How a top player can not punish a whiffed 85 frame move is beyond me.

The move is laggy but that range. I think Link is all right.

 

[[TSON]]

Sorry did I say 50 frames? I meant EIGHTY FIVE. How a top player can not punish a whiffed 85 frame move is beyond me.

For what it's worth, he did say pivot grab, which has different frame data.

EDIT:

To be fair, this is only the frames for his standard (obsolete) grab. Any chance you have the brawlbox frames stored somewhere for his JC grab?

JC is standing grab; the one you posted.

 

[jalued]

For what it's worth, he did say pivot grab, which has different frame data.

EDIT:

JC is standing grab; the one you posted.

You had to dig yourself that hole, didn't you?

Pivot Grab
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Total: 95
Grabs: 15-21
NOTE: Image doesn't show the Clawshot portion of the grabbox because BrawlBox doesn't show articles.

 

[Hylian]

For what it's worth, he did say pivot grab, which has different frame data.

EDIT:

JC is standing grab; the one you posted.

To be fair..pivot grab is slower?

 

[j00t]

So glad M2K posted what he did. He's pretty right. Fox and Falco suck nuts compared to some other characters.

Not saying that that is a bad thing but the fox/falco circlejerk among P:M players is pretty gross.

 

[Ripple]

JC grab IS standing grab

also, pivot grabbing with link MAY be like yoshi and be faster on on start up and cooldown

THREAD IS MOVING TOO FAST

 

[Vashimus]

So glad M2K posted what he did. He's pretty right. Fox and Falco suck nuts compared to some other characters.

So what you're actually saying is, you don't play this game.

 

[Dark Sonic]

You had to dig yourself that hole, didn't you?

Pivot Grab
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Total: 95
Grabs: 15-21
NOTE: Image doesn't show the Clawshot portion of the grabbox because BrawlBox doesn't show articles.

Could you also show ZSS's standing grab, dash grab, and pivot grab frame data? Pretty please?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Could you also show ZSS's standing grab, dash grab, and pivot grab frame data? Pretty please?

absurdly long to the point where you shouldn't use it.

~

 

[[TSON]]

To be fair..pivot grab is slower?

Not disagreeing, I think it helps your point to say it's a near 100 frame move, anyway. The only question is if it has IASA, because I don't think from testing that Link has to sit through all 98 of the frames.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Not disagreeing, I think it helps your point to say it's a near 100 frame move, anyway. The only question is if it has IASA, because I don't think from testing that Link has to sit through all 98 of the frames.

There is no IASA from what I can tell. FAF is basically the animation length.

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

Link deserves to be a great character. That is all.

 

[Bleck]

Did anybody else read Mew2King's post and not know what the hell he was talking about?

I don't mean that incredulously, as if to imply that he was wrong - I just literally didn't understand what to take away from the thing I just read.

 

[Mew2King]

ok hylian i get it jesus christ shut up about that already, I was still unable to punish link's missed grab from a distance MULTIPLE times. It's probably different in actual battles because yes, I was unable to, many times. I won't respond to you talking about the same thing anymore cuz you're trying to distract/detract from all of my other valid points about everything else cuz of 1 thing. and yes i still think his grab is too good overall.

 

[Bleck]

I don't know, you guys - it looks like Mew2King is making the same kind of huffy "[character] is too strong" posts as everybody else occasionally does, but we're just supposed to accept it because he's a top player, I guess?

 

[j00t]

I don't know, you guys - it looks like Mew2King is making the same kind of huffy "[character] is too strong" posts as everybody else occasionally does, but we're just supposed to accept it because he's a top player, I guess?

Considering that M2K has tons of experience with Smash in general and is better than 99% of P:M players, then yes, I'd say so.

You're only focusing on what he said about Link, there's a ton of good points he makes in the post. But you can ignore that if you want.

 

[Empyrean]

This place is ****ing stacked. Calm down people.

 

[Bleck]

He also spent the past few pages saying an 85 frame grab is 'lagless'.

 

[azzucips]

Nerf Link's boomerang.

 

[MLGF]

Wisdom comes from experience, or something like that.
I dunno, maybe the grab argument is rather poor, but he does bring up many other valid arguments.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

don't be antagonistic please.

 

[Hylian]

ok hylian i get it jesus christ shut up about that already, I was still unable to punish link's missed grab from a distance MULTIPLE times. It's probably different in actual battles because yes, I was unable to, many times. I won't respond to you talking about the same thing anymore cuz you're trying to distract/detract from all of my other valid points about everything else cuz of 1 thing. and yes i still think his grab is too good overall.

Or you know..I don't care about anything else you said, just trying to keep wrong information from being spread around. We all understand you don't respect anyone elses opinions but you don't need to be an asshole about it. I'll talk about whatever I want to, you of all people certainly won't squelch me.

 

[Bleck]

I dunno, maybe the grab argument is rather poor, but he does bring up many other valid arguments.

You mean how it's totally unfair that Link has moves that - heaven forbid - combo into other moves?

 

[Deleted member]

Hylian putting his fist down and its hitting harder than his boomerang

 

[MLGF]

No his point about how easy it is to use some PM newcomers. Armarda not even playing Pit and doing as well as he has is crazy.

 

[Ripple]

Link's d-throw is the new Sheik d-throw and I find it immensely amusing that M2K hates it

 

[NickLeo]

That dang RockCrock.

Creep!

 

[Mew2King]

dude that's great, can you all please address my other points now.

and I told you what I said was from MY EXPERIENCE, as in it happened to me multiple times, and the lucas grab too, and everything else I said. Your clear intentions are to try to find something to try to make no one believe me or take me seriously cuz god forbid i say flaws I found in the game, otherwise you wouldn't CONSTANTLY FOLLOW ME EVERYWHERE SAYING OMG M2K THOUGHT GW WAS THE BEST AT ONE POINT IN TIME IN 2008 in every freaking thread i go into

 

[Deleted member]

You should really just look up some frame data and not go off "feeling".

I respectfully disagree. Game feel is what draws your players, most of your players will never use action replay or test frame data or anything like that. having answers in the frame data is nice I guess but it's definitely secondary to a player's impression of the game because how much players like the game and its interactions is much more of an emotionally based argument than an objective one.

 

[Vashimus]

Considering that M2K has tons of experience with Smash in general and is better than 99% of P:M players, then yes, I'd say so.

You're only focusing on what he said about Link, there's a ton of good points he makes in the post. But you can ignore that if you want.

Spoiler

 

[NickRiddle]

Link deserves everything he has.

 

[Osennecho]

Am I the only one who agrees more with the Lucas grab than Link?....

 

[Deleted member]

Lets buff toonlink

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

I am reminded of why I don't post here often.
I have a headache.

 

[Osennecho]

Lets buff toonlink

Inb4 fire arrows that light a shield on fire and cause shield drop.

 

[Bleck]

No his point about how easy it is to use some PM newcomers. Armarda not even playing Pit and doing as well as he has is crazy.

I don't see why a character not requiring literally a decade of practice is a bad thing.

otherwise you wouldn't CONSTANTLY FOLLOW ME EVERYWHERE

Hylian is an administrator and one of the most prolific posters on the boards. It was sort of obvious from your initial post that you think you're the center of the universe, but now you're just making it easy.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Show them, show them to resolve of the king, the resolve of the KING OF THE MEWS!!!

Edit: wdf thread2fast