Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[DavemanCozy]

I'm really not feeling it for the back slash.

Can I have some advice to use this move at all? I would also like to know how to use the custom moves of back slash.

I've actually found Backslash useful with Jump activated (faster falling speed) for covering some aerial recoveries back onstage (particularly 's Flip Jump). Also hits incoming ledge jumps. All this is based on reads though, and is pretty easy to avoid.

Aside from that though, it's been said before: B-slash is generally useless. It's more useful in teams though.

 

[erico9001]

What do you guys think of Edge Pivot Dashing for Shulk?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtMBrKq_iCE

I want to see how far Shulk can slide with Edge Pivot Dashing in Speed. I want to see Shulk sliding across the stage like a top doing his D-Smash with that.

In all seriousness, it's something I'm curious on. It can give Shulk some horizontal range for a number of his attacks outside of Perfect Pivoting (up-tilt and d-tilt come to mind) and maybe help his CQC game which tends to be where Shulk struggles the most. His grab might have another tool to work with outside of Pivot Grabs.

Time to hit the lab and see how much this helps.

I don't get how to do it. All that keeps happening is my character instantaneously starts to dash again when I input down smash.

edit: Oh yay I got it to work. I was pressing too soon. Shulk went a little over 1/4 of FD in Speed mode.
edit2: Wait no, holy crap if you time it right he goes half of FD

Okay, so I have a firm grasp on this finally. What slides is the same as what slides with perfect pivoting, so we have all our smash attacks, U-tilt, shield, grab, and doing nothing.

 

[Zatchiel]

So I've been seeing more and more people ask about how to use Jump onstage. I've been experimenting with it a lot more since December, so I figured I'd share my ideas.

I'd say it's our best art overall, but I wouldn't use it nearly as much as that would suggest. You can get decent strings going once you've conditioned your opponent to fear your aerial game in Jump. Bait airdodges with empty hops or even even n-air (I prefer this because it covers them even after their airdodge finishes or gets canceled by landing lag. I throw out a counter if I foresee an aggressive option (tends to happen most against characters that have a quick and effective n-air or f-air). For the most part I'm just eating away at my opponent's patience with safe n-airs and well-placed b-airs.

Speaking of our moveset with Jump equipped, I've found that these moves seem to be better than "average" (I'm taking every other art into consideration, I don't just mean vanilla):

- All of our aerials, but mainly front, back, and neutral air. I don't think the latter two can be punished out of shield if spaced and fast-falled appropriately. I'm not sure about f-air because I don't generally approach with it. I honestly doubt it, but I'd love to have that doubt confounded.

- Down tilt. Sets up our aerial game nicely, and the added jump height and aerial mobility allows us to actually follow this up more directly rather than giving them time to just jump away and find room to reset to neutral. Here's an example.

- Up tilt, it's incredible with or without Jump but for obvious reasons this is even better with Jump equipped.

- Up smash is definitely better. It's great for punishing roll-ins and airdodges which are more likely to happen when your opponent's back is to the ledge or when they're trying to recover from the air bewaring the potency of your aerial game with Jump. It has the least lag of all of our smash attacks (?/at least from what I can see) so you can follow it up surprisingly quickly with aerial pressure at mid or high percents. Deals some great damage, sweetspot or not. The disjoint in front of and behind Shulk can effectively catch people that are trying to punish Shulk on a takeoff. Jump cancel up smash out of shield is particularly decent for punishing, but I tend to save it for a kill option.

- Down throw at the ledge + split second art switch = enjoy your free ledgeguard. Recommended at mid and higher percents rather than a youthful stock.

- Up throw. Take everything I said about our aerials, up tilt, or down tilt and give them a set up. If they do anything besides jump, you can nail them with any of these of these or a regrab and get a jump string going. Up throw into up air seems like a reliable pseudo at later percents, since you can delay the up air and follow their DI with your splendid air mobility if they react with an airdodge. Shulk can get up surprisingly high (it still shocks me sometimes), it can catch people off guard in a place where most characters aren't very comfortable (well above stage, nearing offscreen). Here's one last example. I shieldgrab to cover his landing just as my "cooldown" for Jump ends so it activates while I'm in shield, and the reward is lethal.

- Back throw and forward throw are really only enhanced in their potential if you're throwing them offstage. I think back throw is a bit better because if they try to jump back on backwards without grabbing the ledge, there isn't much at all that can challenge your back air from that position. If they airdodge the back air and try to punish it with an aerial of their own you'll have enough time to throw up a shield or even a counter. If they airdodge and take landing lag you can grab them and throw them right back off.

- Air slash. This one I have mixed feelings about. Out of shield it could have better kill potential (not kill power) than vanilla or any non-smash art due to that slight boost in vertical range. It could kill off the top or the diagonals easier, mathematically speaking. But from what I have tested there doesn't seem to be much of a difference. Still, it's a viable out of shield option but keep in mind that you're launching a bit higher from it while in jump so there is a larger window for you to be punished. But basically, it's same risk and same reward.

Everything else seems as good as it is in vanilla. Jab might be slightly more useful itself, since it can already condition/pressure shields which you can respond to.

tl;dr: You glide through the air like a hot knife through butter and you can leap over skyscrapers. You can and should be using this to further intimidate your opponent (for most of the cast you already out-range them, when projectiles aren't in play). Play it safe in neutral, harass them in the air. Make them hunt for punishment opportunities fervently. Of course the application varies considerably by match-up, but in general you're still going to want to be smooth, careful, and have some degree of confidence as to how your opponent is going to react to you being in the air or landing on the ground.

 

[erico9001]

So I've been seeing more and more people ask about how to use Jump onstage. I've been experimenting with it a lot more since December, so I figured I'd share my ideas.

I'd say it's our best art overall, but I wouldn't use it nearly as much as that would suggest. You can get decent strings going once you've conditioned your opponent to fear your aerial game in Jump. Bait airdodges with empty hops or even even n-air (I prefer this because it covers them even after their airdodge finishes or gets canceled by landing lag. I throw out a counter if I foresee an aggressive option (tends to happen most against characters that have a quick and effective n-air or f-air). For the most part I'm just eating away at my opponent's patience with safe n-airs and well-placed b-airs.

Speaking of our moveset with Jump equipped, I've found that these moves seem to be better than "average" (I'm taking every other art into consideration, I don't just mean vanilla):

- All of our aerials, but mainly front, back, and neutral air. I don't think the latter two can be punished out of shield if spaced and fast-falled appropriately. I'm not sure about f-air because I don't generally approach with it. I honestly doubt it, but I'd love to have that doubt confounded.

- Down tilt. Sets up our aerial game nicely, and the added jump height and aerial mobility allows us to actually follow this up more directly rather than giving them time to just jump away and find room to reset to neutral. Here's an example.

- Up tilt, it's incredible with or without Jump but for obvious reasons this is even better with Jump equipped.

- Up smash is definitely better. It's great for punishing roll-ins and airdodges which are more likely to happen when your opponent's back is to the ledge or when they're trying to recover from the air bewaring the potency of your aerial game with Jump. It has the least lag of all of our smash attacks (?/at least from what I can see) so you can follow it up surprisingly quickly with aerial pressure at mid or high percents. Deals some great damage, sweetspot or not. The disjoint in front of and behind Shulk can effectively catch people that are trying to punish Shulk on a takeoff. Jump cancel up smash out of shield is particularly decent for punishing, but I tend to save it for a kill option.

- Down throw at the ledge + split second art switch = enjoy your free ledgeguard. Recommended at mid and higher percents rather than a youthful stock.

- Up throw. Take everything I said about our aerials, up tilt, or down tilt and give them a set up. If they do anything besides jump, you can nail them with any of these of these or a regrab and get a jump string going. Up throw into up air seems like a reliable pseudo at later percents, since you can delay the up air and follow their DI with your splendid air mobility if they react with an airdodge. Shulk can get up surprisingly high (it still shocks me sometimes), it can catch people off guard in a place where most characters aren't very comfortable (well above stage, nearing offscreen). Here's one last example. I shieldgrab to cover his landing just as my "cooldown" for Jump ends so it activates while I'm in shield, and the reward is lethal.

- Back throw and forward throw are really only enhanced in their potential if you're throwing them offstage. I think back throw is a bit better because if they try to jump back on backwards without grabbing the ledge, there isn't much at all that can challenge your back air from that position. If they airdodge the back air and try to punish it with an aerial of their own you'll have enough time to throw up a shield or even a counter. If they airdodge and take landing lag you can grab them and throw them right back off.

- Air slash. This one I have mixed feelings about. Out of shield it could have better kill potential (not kill power) than vanilla or any non-smash art due to that slight boost in vertical range. It could kill off the top or the diagonals easier, mathematically speaking. But from what I have tested there doesn't seem to be much of a difference. Still, it's a viable out of shield option but keep in mind that you're launching a bit higher from it while in jump so there is a larger window for you to be punished. But basically, it's same risk and same reward.

Everything else seems as good as it is in vanilla. Jab might be slightly more useful itself, since it can already condition/pressure shields which you can respond to.

tl;dr: You glide through the air like a hot knife through butter and you can leap over skyscrapers. You can and should be using this to further intimidate your opponent (for most of the cast you already out-range them, when projectiles aren't in play). Play it safe in neutral, harass them in the air. Make them hunt for punishment opportunities fervently. Of course the application varies considerably by match-up, but in general you're still going to want to be smooth, careful, and have some degree of confidence as to how your opponent is going to react to you being in the air or landing on the ground.

Oh interesting, so with Jump art activated and doing an attack where you go over the person and attack their back with Nair or Bair, you slide far enough away not to be punished oos? That's good to know.

About the Air Slash part - Jump does have a faster fall speed though. It might even be safer for that reason. Let me just do a quick test... when used on the ground, Vanilla hits the ground just slightly faster (hardly noticeable in 1x speed though). However, if there is vertical height before the move is used, Jump comes down sooner. It comes down basically same speed from the first platform of Battlefield, faster from the top platform.

 

[Zatchiel]

Oh interesting, so with Jump art activated and doing an attack where you go over the person and attack their back with Nair or Bair, you slide far enough away not to be punished oos? That's good to know.

About the Air Slash part - Jump does have a faster fall speed though. It might even be safer for that reason. Let me just do a quick test... when used on the ground, Vanilla hits the ground just slightly faster (hardly noticeable in 1x speed though). However, if there is vertical height before the move is used, Jump comes down sooner. It comes down basically same speed from the first platform of Battlefield, faster from the top platform.

It's not special to Jump, n-air and b-air are already just that beautiful. N-air has it's obvious auto-cancel, but b-air has humongous range and the damage/shield stun is better when attacking with or closer to the blade. If they roll in and manage to shield the closest hit (immediately in front of, behind, or within Shulk), the only way they can punish is if they powershielded it which shouldn't happen often at all if you read the roll in and aim to cover it. If the blade hits their shield and they get pushed back they can't punish it. If any part of the beam hits their shield they can't punish it. I think the only way they can hope to punish either n-air or b-air from the ground is by means of a roll-in or poweshield, but it's a lot harder for them to punish n-air because you can advance or retreat it so ****ing far while in Jump.

Forgot to take into account that he falls faster in Jump when I made that note about Air Slash, so thanks. I suppose he would be a little less vulnerable with a fast fall in Jump stance.

 

[Watchful_Eye]

When I see the chart of Nammy12, I wonder if it is usually better to tilt the Fmash upwards since it kills faster? What are the disadvantages doing this? I guess in case it did not kill it might be easier for the opponent to recover, because the opponent is higher, right?

 

[Masonomace]

Also, can you guys try out f-smashing shield Shulk with Bowser when Shulk is at 0% or possibly maybe below 10%. See if it's unsafe on hit. I can't really test this since I'm away from the 3DS atm

Did this with extreme testing to get the extreme results first. Btw I did it with FD Training Mode 1/4x speed (Hold L):

Shield Shulk shielding against a fully charged Bowser F-smash, can reliably punish with:

• Dash grab
• Dash attack
• F-smash angled up down or sideways
• Roll Canceled Grab

Shield Shulk shielding against an uncharged F-smash can punish it with:

• Jab-1 -- 2% / (Jab-2 whiffs & he CAN shield the hit)) / Jab-3 -- 4% (this is IF the Bowser doesn't know that he can shield the 3rd hit)
• SH > F-air hitting with the sourspot -- 5%
• D-tilt sweetspot -- 6% / D-tilt sourspot if you're late -- 4 or 5% (if fresh in Smash VS mode)
• F-tilt sourspot -- 9%
• F-smash uncharged from any angle -- 11% (1st hit 3% / 2nd hit 8%)
• SH > B-air's front-facing hit -- 8%
• SH > N-air sourspot - 5% (This is tricky since you must be drifting while SH'ing towards him as soon as your shield drops)
• Dash attack -- 7%
• U-smash disjointed 1st hit -- 3% / 2nd hit -- 9% (IF Bowser DI's toward you, he'll get hit by the 2nd hit thus dealing 9%, otherwise he won't be hit if he DI's away or doesn't DI at all)

When I see the chart of Nammy12, I wonder if it is usually better to tilt the Fmash upwards since it kills faster? What are the disadvantages doing this? I guess in case it did not kill it might be easier for the opponent to recover, because the opponent is higher, right?

Usually it is better to tilt F-smash upward, on large or tall characters that is. The drawback of tilting your F-smash upward is that the 1st hit angled might whiff them & therefore you may get punished before the 2nd hitting Beam shoots out.

And yeah, if the damage we dealt on top of the increased knockback from F-smash angled upwards didn't KO, they would be able to recover easier. There are definitely characters you don't want to be angling incorrectly against, otherwise the 1st hit will whiff, or the 1st hit knocks them up in a way that the 2nd hit won't connect anyways. This rarely happens now with the v1.0.4 patch, but it still happens, for me at least.

 

[kenniky]

Any tips on effectively using Buster? I know it's a pretty potent tool but I'm kind of scared of it due to the increased damage taken

 

[Berserker.]

Did this with extreme testing to get the extreme results first. Btw I did it with FD Training Mode 1/4x speed (Hold L):

Shield Shulk shielding against a fully charged Bowser F-smash, can reliably punish with:

• Dash grab
• Dash attack
• F-smash angled up down or sideways
• Roll Canceled Grab

Shield Shulk shielding against an uncharged F-smash can punish it with:

• Jab-1 -- 2% / (Jab-2 whiffs & he CAN shield the hit)) / Jab-3 -- 4% (this is IF the Bowser doesn't know that he can shield the 3rd hit)
• SH > F-air hitting with the sourspot -- 5%
• D-tilt sweetspot -- 6% / D-tilt sourspot if you're late -- 4 or 5% (if fresh in Smash VS mode)
• F-tilt sourspot -- 9%
• F-smash uncharged from any angle -- 11% (1st hit 3% / 2nd hit 8%)
• SH > B-air's front-facing hit -- 8%
• SH > N-air sourspot - 5% (This is tricky since you must be drifting while SH'ing towards him as soon as your shield drops)
• Dash attack -- 7%
• U-smash disjointed 1st hit -- 3% / 2nd hit -- 9% (IF Bowser DI's toward you, he'll get hit by the 2nd hit thus dealing 9%, otherwise he won't be hit if he DI's away or doesn't DI at all).

Thank you for testing. This just made Monado shield even more interesting....

Any tips on effectively using Buster? I know it's a pretty potent tool but I'm kind of scared of it due to the increased damage taken

Space with tilts, n-air, b-air and f-air
Go for the grabs
F-smash when it's safe
Poke opponents with buster to play safely, and also to rack up damage

In other words, play mid-range with buster

Buster art is Shulk's most potent and arguably his most important art for gaining the lead in a match. Your attacks deal unusually high damage with this art activated. Additionally because of the damage increase, your attacks become safer on block so you can play mid-range with buster. Utilizing buster requires precision and spacing. Take full advantage of Shulk's range and space your attacks. Being too aggressive in buster will result to you taking a lot of damage

You can play mid range with buster. The following attacks become your main tools for poking:
1) FF F-air
2) Tipper B-air
3) Tipped F-tilt
4) Tipped D-tilt
5) Tipped N-air

D-tilt in buster is very important. Even in default, d-tilt is Shulk's longest ranged and quickest non-smash attack which makes this your best grounded spacing tool. It deals 9/12% damage which is a lot and the knockback is minimal in general which means that after hitting them with d-tilt, you can let them come at you and shield grab or just attempt to punish them in general, or you try to go for f-tilt or d-tilt (This can be countered by power shielding). F-tilt also serves as a solid spacing tool. Although it does not have as much range, the range is still great plus it's safer on shield. If you manage to land a hit, you can deal 16/18% damage which is HUGE. The utility of his u-tilt stays constant, basically just use u-tilt as an anti-air. It's just that it's more rewarding since it deals 9/11% damage
Your strategies remain constant with buster. They're all best used for spacing. In buster though, you now have MORE reasons to space with your aerials and that's because they still deal a good amount of damage even if you tip them (N-air deals more damage tipped) and they're all safe on block (You have to fast fall F-air to make it safe)

Another important application of buster is to make a come back. Basically when you're down, this is the best art to use. However, playing smartly is required to gain ground with buster. If performed correctly, you can easily make the match even or possibly turn the tides to your favor. Buster as an art is heavily affected by momentum. Failing to utilize buster will result to you taking more damage than dealing more damage OR you deal as much damage as how much damage your opponent dealt to you while you used buster. This is one of the reasons why maximizing your range is very crucial to rack up damage and avoid taking damage with this art

 

[erico9001]

Buster is actually great at mid-high hp values, because with other arts many of Shulk's combos stop stringing together right around 50-60%. Opponents usually start to get flung too far for our hits to string together on them.
(exceptions are Speed dthrow -> Dash -> Fair which uses Speed to catch up with them and Monado Jump Nair, Fair, Fair, (Air Slash?) which uses that air speed).
However, with Monado Buster, Nair -> Ftilt works usually from like 50-90% or sometimes up to like 100%. Buster Nair -> F-Smash works to even higher percents. They stay in range.

Something you have to look out for while in Monado Buster is counters. Counters base their damage from multiplying your damage, and Monado Buster dishes out a lot of damage. Luckily, Shulk's F-Smash, U-Smash, Uair, and Dair activate counters with their first hit onlyy, so you aren't hurt nearly as bad if it were all just one attack. Your F-tilts though, you have to seriously watch out when dishing them out. For an example... you're facing a Shulk who is at the training mode spawn point, facing left as usual. You are to his left, in Monado Buster, and do an F-tilt that he counters (with a normal counter, sending you back the way you came from). He will kill you at 67% if he is Vanilla Shulk. Yep, even with such a distance, 67%. If he was in Monado Smash he would KO you at 58%. Now, just imagine if he did a forward counter... Well you actually won't need to imagine because I got curious. 33% if not vectoring/DI whatnot. 33%! I'm not even doing Monado Smash because this takes a while and nobody's going to be in Smash at these low of percents.

 

[Masonomace]

Now, just imagine if he did a forward counter... Well you actually won't need to imagine because I got curious. 33% if not vectoring/DI whatnot. 33%! I'm not even doing Monado Smash because this takes a while and nobody's going to be in Smash at these low of percents.

I also get curious when you do & don't want to use a Forwarded Vision in that same scenario. At times the farther apart you're from the stage's center facing the opposite direction from the closest blast line, the harder it is getting the KO from my experiences. When I'm countering a move (tilt) that deals a mix of high damage & medium knockback, I end up wasting that Vision read because they DI towards the corner farthest from us & surviving, thanks to the reversed angle they're launched. Ofc this goes without saying for countering a powerful attack (smash aerial or special) due to the ridiculous damage & knockback dealt back to them, but yeah I feel we shouldn't add the Forward input unless you know for sure it's going to KO them. I come close to killing them relatively early, but sometimes we need Rage to confirm the KO if you want that hard-read Vision to really make it count. This troubling feeling is solved by Power Vision, which eventually became a solid reason of choosing PV over regular Vision.

As for the main discussion pertaining to the Buster stance vs parry attacks, I humbly agree. When Shulk's facing against formidable effects like Buster's damage boost such as Lucario with high Aura, it's a main reason that Smash mode is highly favored because of the double stacked power he receives from Aura + Rage augmenting his moves to deal high damage & knockback. Smash mode active & Forward Vision countering a beefy Aura & Raged B-air from Lucario is quite a sight to behold.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I feel we shouldn't add the Forward input unless you know for sure it's going to KO them. I come close to killing them relatively early, but sometimes we need Rage to confirm the KO if you want that hard-read Vision to really make it count.

From my experience sometimes you'll want to use forward vision when at kill percents, because it allows you to counter some moves that normally you wouldn't hit (like Yoshi's egg roll gets hit by forward vision but not regular vision) There's some other moves like this too, but I can't think of them off the top of my head.

 

[kenniky]

Something you have to look out for while in Monado Buster is counters. Counters base their damage from multiplying your damage, and Monado Buster dishes out a lot of damage. Luckily, Shulk's F-Smash, U-Smash, Uair, and Dair activate counters with their first hit onlyy, so you aren't hurt nearly as bad if it were all just one attack. Your F-tilts though, you have to seriously watch out when dishing them out. For an example... you're facing a Shulk who is at the training mode spawn point, facing left as usual. You are to his left, in Monado Buster, and do an F-tilt that he counters (with a normal counter, sending you back the way you came from). He will kill you at 67% if he is Vanilla Shulk. Yep, even with such a distance, 67%. If he was in Monado Smash he would KO you at 58%. Now, just imagine if he did a forward counter... Well you actually won't need to imagine because I got curious. 33% if not vectoring/DI whatnot. 33%! I'm not even doing Monado Smash because this takes a while and nobody's going to be in Smash at these low of percents.

Geez... Now imagine Power Vision like that.

 

[erico9001]

I also get curious when you do & don't want to use a Forwarded Vision in that same scenario. At times the farther apart you're from the stage's center facing the opposite direction from the closest blast line, the harder it is getting the KO from my experiences. When I'm countering a move (tilt) that deals a mix of high damage & medium knockback, I end up wasting that Vision read because they DI towards the corner farthest from us & surviving, thanks to the reversed angle they're launched. Ofc this goes without saying for countering a powerful attack (smash aerial or special) due to the ridiculous damage & knockback dealt back to them, but yeah I feel we shouldn't add the Forward input unless you know for sure it's going to KO them. I come close to killing them relatively early, but sometimes we need Rage to confirm the KO if you want that hard-read Vision to really make it count. This troubling feeling is solved by Power Vision, which eventually became a solid reason of choosing PV over regular Vision.

As for the main discussion pertaining to the Buster stance vs parry attacks, I humbly agree. When Shulk's facing against formidable effects like Buster's damage boost such as Lucario with high Aura, it's a main reason that Smash mode is highly favored because of the double stacked power he receives from Aura + Rage augmenting his moves to deal high damage & knockback. Smash mode active & Forward Vision countering a beefy Aura & Raged B-air from Lucario is quite a sight to behold.

Vision (fast hit)
Frame 21-21: 13% 70b/94g (KO@ 112%) 50° 2.0-Hitlag Slash UnblockableFrame 21-21: 10% 70b/94g (KO@ 147%) 50° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable

Vision (normal hit)Frame 8- 9: 10% 70b/84g (KO@ 166%) 50° 2.0-Hitlag Slash UnblockableFrame 8- 9: 7% 70b/84g (KO@ 228%) 50° 2.0-Hitlag Slash UnblockableMax Damage: 10%

Well according to this, the moves have the same angle, but the forward counter (the fast hit) has more damage and knockback growth. Forward counter is usually better, unless if you are going to send the opponent to the farther away blast box.

 

[Masonomace]

From my experience sometimes you'll want to use forward vision when at kill percents, because it allows you to counter some moves that normally you wouldn't hit (like Yoshi's egg roll gets hit by forward vision but not regular vision) There's some other moves like this too, but I can't think of them off the top of my head.

For sure. It also helps against moves like Dash attacks that have a lot of momentum forward, they're passing Shulk while he's stepping back during the regular Vision. (E.g. Zamus & Yoshi)

Vision (fast hit)
Frame 21-21: 13% 70b/94g (KO@ 112%) 50° 2.0-Hitlag Slash UnblockableFrame 21-21: 10% 70b/94g (KO@ 147%) 50° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable

Vision (normal hit)Frame 8- 9: 10% 70b/84g (KO@ 166%) 50° 2.0-Hitlag Slash UnblockableFrame 8- 9: 7% 70b/84g (KO@ 228%) 50° 2.0-Hitlag Slash UnblockableMax Damage: 10%

Well according to this, the moves have the same angle, but the forward counter (the fast hit) has more damage and knockback growth. Forward counter is usually better, unless if you are going to send the opponent to the farther away blast box.

It's true that they're the same angle, but the direction they're launched will depend on the direction Shulk's facing, & the position on-stage. In order for Forward Vision to have the same launching angle as regular Vision, Shulk must be in the opposite position & facing the opposite direction, but yeah.

 

[erico9001]

For sure. It also helps against moves like Dash attacks that have a lot of momentum forward, they're passing Shulk while he's stepping back during the regular Vision. (E.g. Zamus & Yoshi)

It's true that they're the same angle, but the direction they're launched will depend on the direction Shulk's facing, & the position on-stage. In order for Forward Vision to have the same launching angle as regular Vision, Shulk must be in the opposite position & facing the opposite direction, but yeah.

Actually, the direction launched is dependent on what side of Shulk the opponent hits him. If Shulk is hit from an attack from behind, it acts the same as if Shulk was facing the opponent.

 

[Masonomace]

Actually, the direction launched is dependent on what side of Shulk the opponent hits him. If Shulk is hit from an attack from behind, it acts the same as if Shulk was facing the opponent.

This is true, me saying that it varied from the direction Shulk faces doesn't mean anything, it only varies on the positioning whether Shulk is more to the right, or more to the left of the stage while he Vision counters the hit. Though it's good to mention about the direction Shulk is facing doesn't mean anything, because Shulk will turn around if the attack / projectile is from behind, which means we can hold backwards to input a Forward Vision even if we're not directly facing the attack. Speaking of Forward Vision. . .I figured out that the sourspot hit looks totally disjointed, so disjointed that the entire Monado including the Beam portion of the attack is the sweetspot, & that an area outside of the Beam's visual range is the sourspot. Very weird imo. You won't often get the sourspot in a 1v1 for sure, but in Doubles or something, you can counter an attack from your front while someone is behind nearby & it will hit them despite the deceptive range.

 

[Nammy12]

Hyper Smash ko percents (lightning effects)

All of these were tested on Wii U FD on level 3 CPU's. First from the center of FD and then from their starting positions.
Blastzones on the Wii U versions are smaller compared to the 3DS so you'll need about 5%-10% more on the 3DS version.

Smashes were uncharged, but sweet-spotted.
Like always, there will be plenty of variables in a real match.
Also, I may be off by a couple percents on some moves due to positioning. (throws, air-slash)

I also added throws from the middle of FD since they are actually kind of viable.
Basically nothing past 80% will survive an Up-tilt.

Hyper Monado Arts are scary...

Heavyweight:

Middle of FD

Spoiler

Forward Smash (Normal)-82%

Forward Smash (Tilted up)-74%

Up Smash-59%

Down Smash-73%

Forward Tilt-84%

Air Slash-97%

Back Air-97%

Back Slash (Front)-122%

Back Slash (Back)-78%

Dash Attack-87%

Up Tilt-76%

Down Throw-136%

Back Throw-132%

Edge (starting positions)

Spoiler

Forward Smash (Normal)-64%

Forward Smash (Tilted up)-56%

Up Smash-59%

Down Smash-53%

Forward Tilt-84%

Air Slash-72%

Back Air-75%

Back Slash (Front)-96%

Back Slash (Back)-60%

Dash Attack-87%

Up Tilt-76%

Down Throw-98%

Back Throw-87%

Mid-heavy:

Middle of FD

Spoiler

Forward Smash (Normal)-75%

Forward Smash (Tilted up)-66%

Up Smash-57%

Down Smash-65%

Forward Tilt-96%

Air Slash-91%

Back Air-88%

Back Slash (Front)-111%

Back Slash (Back)-70%

Dash Attack-87%

Up Tilt-78%

Down Throw-128%

Back Throw-125%

Edge (starting positions)

Spoiler

Forward Smash (Normal)-58%

Forward Smash (Tilted up)-51%

Up Smash-57%

Down Smash-48%

Forward Tilt-76%

Air Slash-70%

Back Air-68%

Back Slash (Front)-87%

Back Slash (Back)-55%

Dash Attack-87%

Up Tilt-78%

Down Throw-85%

Back Throw-84%

Midweight:

Middle of FD

Spoiler

Forward Smash (Normal)-71%

Forward Smash (Tilted up)-63%

Up Smash-53%

Down Smash-63%

Forward Tilt-92%

Air Slash-85%

Back Air-84%

Back Slash (Front)-106%

Back Slash (Back)-67%

Dash Attack-81%

Up Tilt-72%

Down Throw-122%

Back Throw-119%

Edge (starting positions)

Spoiler

Forward Smash (Normal)-55%

Forward Smash (Tilted up)-49%

Up Smash-53%

Down Smash-46%

Forward Tilt-72%

Air Slash-67%

Back Air-65%

Back Slash (Front)-84%

Back Slash (Back)-52%

Dash Attack-81%

Up Tilt-72%

Down Throw-83%

Back Throw-79%

Mid-light:

Middle of FD

Spoiler

Forward Smash (Normal)-65%

Forward Smash (Tilted up)-57%

Up Smash-51%

Down Smash-58%

Forward Tilt-84%

Air Slash-77%

Back Air-77%

Back Slash (Front)-97%

Back Slash (Back)-61%

Dash Attack-80%

Up Tilt-73%

Down Throw-113%

Back Throw-110%

Edge (starting positions)

Spoiler

Forward Smash (Normal)-50%

Forward Smash (Tilted up)-44%

Up Smash-51%

Down Smash-42%

Forward Tilt-66%

Air Slash-57%

Back Air-60%

Back Slash (Front)-77%

Back Slash (Back)-47%

Dash Attack-79%

Up Tilt-73%

Down Throw-77%

Back Throw-74%

Lightweight: (dis gon be good...)

Middle of FD

Spoiler

Forward Smash (Normal)-60%

Forward Smash (Tilted up)-57%

Up Smash-40%

Down Smash-58%

Forward Tilt-84%

Air Slash-77%

Back Air-77%

Back Slash (Front)-90%

Back Slash (Back)-56%

Dash Attack-63%

Up Tilt-56%

Down Throw-98%

Back Throw-101%

Edge (starting positions)

Spoiler

Forward Smash (Normal)-46%

Forward Smash (Tilted up)-41%

Up Smash-40%

Down Smash-38%

Forward Tilt-61%

Air Slash-56%

Back Air-55%

Back Slash (Front)-71%

Back Slash (Back)-43%

Dash Attack-83%

Up Tilt-56%

Down Throw-72%

Back Throw-66%

 

[Berserker.]

Forward Smash (Tilted up)-174%

Suppose to be 74%?

 

[Nammy12]

Suppose to be 74%?

Oops. Fixed it.

 

[Berserker.]

Buster is actually great at mid-high hp values, because with other arts many of Shulk's combos stop stringing together right around 50-60%. Opponents usually start to get flung too far for our hits to string together on them.
(exceptions are Speed dthrow -> Dash -> Fair which uses Speed to catch up with them and Monado Jump Nair, Fair, Fair, (Air Slash?) which uses that air speed).
However, with Monado Buster, Nair -> Ftilt works usually from like 50-90% or sometimes up to like 100%. Buster Nair -> F-Smash works to even higher percents. They stay in range

I'm an advocate of speed -> buster because buster combos only work at mid percentages. You can do some combos in speed (D-throw to f-air and N-air to jab as usual) for some damage. Whenever speed doesn't work out though at the start, buster is fine because d-throw -> d-tilt is still a thing at lower percentages and so is n-air -> jab. Whenever buster doesn't work at mid, I switch to jump art because like buster, most of the combos and strings work at mid %'s.

I see shield as a "safe" art rather than a stalling art. If I'm uneasy about KO'ing in Smash especially at high percentages, I'd roll into shield to make sure nothing stupid happens. Whenever I'm dealing with too much pressure, I switch to shield to take less damage (or speed). Usually after taking stocks and when I'm at 100%+, I still roll into buster because rage increases knockback which buster lacks and I also need to increase my lead.

As for smash, I use it when I'm at a safe % and the opponent is currently at KO range. I also use it when I'm 150%+ (and the opponent is still at KO range) because I'm gonna die anyway. I'm only under this mentality when I'll have a -1 stock lead if I get KO'd.

 

[TreK]

A trick I often do is that I hold down when doing an upB to stop it from snapping the ledge and allowing me to profit from upB2's INCREDIBLE range to cover my recovery from places I should normally be unable to. Done properly, this can hit people on the floor as far as the end of the first platform of BF.

I wanted to optimize this trick : I know that it worked because when you're holding down, you disable your ledge snap boxes, and that there was one at the beginning of upB2 which allows you to snap the ledge sooner than if you wait for upB1 to end. So I figured, maybe I can release "down" sooner in order to interrupt the move and go from having an hitbox out to being invincible in a frame.
Unfortunately, as soon as the Monado is swinging, there's no ledge snap box on upB2 anymore : you'll have to wait until you complete that move to snap the ledge. So no invincible upB2 for me.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

So I was playing For Glory and was able to do Smash jab 1 --> Air Slash at about 90% on Ness for a KO. It didn't look airdodgable, so I decided to do some testing on every character by using a level 9 CPU in training set to attack, so if airdodging is possible they would do it. This also seems to be easier to do in Vanilla, but you won't be getting a KO until like 140 or 150%.

I was going to make a gigantic list of each character, but after testing quite a few it seems that the general rule of thumb is Smash Jab 1 --> Air Slash at 100% for light-medium weights (Mario, Peach, etc.) 90% for super light weights like Rosalina (it doesn't work on Jiggly or Kirby bc first hit of Air Slash sends them too high.) 135% for Bowser, DK, ROB, and maybe Bowser Jr., Yoshi, and Samus. These are just percents that Smash Air slash is likely to kill them at, it'll still have a possibility of working at lower or higher percents cuz AS has ridiculous range. The only problem is if a character has an aerial faster than AS like Sheik's fair (ew that was painful just to type lmao), they can hit Shulk out of it.

Can anyone confirm if this actually works? Even if it isn't a true combo, it could be an interesting mixup, surprise option or used to read an airdodge or fast aerial off of jab1 and fsmash them or something.

 

[Zatchiel]

Can anyone confirm if this actually works? Even if it isn't a true combo, it could be an interesting mixup, surprise option or used to read an airdodge or fast aerial off of jab1 and fsmash them or something.

I recall seeing another Shulk player do it in a Shulk ditto, at the very least I'd say it's an okay mix-up. I'm almost 100% sure this can be avoided by them fastfalling after jab 1 and throwing up a shield. In all likelihood unless they have a fast aerial to interrupt you with, they aren't going to be looking to do anything other than get a shield up or dodge to escape a potential jab -> grab follow-up.

Because of that I think it'll typically be more advantageous to just bait their reaction to your jab and punish with a grab/shieldgrab or an up/down smash if you bait a dodge.

 

[Berserker.]

Anyone wanna talk about Shulk's options against ledge grabbers? Like, we know that f-smash can hit them off but that only works when they're not invincible (usually happens when they regrab the ledge). Thanks to more Shulk videos, it seems like jab and u-smash are good against any option from the ledge. U-smash catches ledge hops, ledge climbs and ledge rolls (if you space yourself correctly from the ledge and time it right). Jab catches anything from the ledge. If they drop from the ledge and try to jump back on stage while attacking, that's probably when d-tilt/f-tilt/f-smash/ is probably good.... or jab but it depends on the range of the attack. You can replace u-smash with u-tilt but I prefer using U-smash not because it's more useful but because it deals more damage, has more KO power, and it has some horizontal hitbox (the initial hit at least) but I'm sure u-tilt is also useful since it's basically quicker and safer (But it's useless against ledge rolls). There's d-smash too which is also effective against ledge options thanks to its multiple hitboxes but that start up is gross. Makes it too easy to predict

Thoughts on this?

 

[TheHopefulHero]

Anyone wanna talk about Shulk's options against ledge grabbers? Like, we know that f-smash can hit them off but that only works when they're not invincible (usually happens when they regrab the ledge). Thanks to more Shulk videos, it seems like jab and u-smash are good against any option from the ledge. U-smash catches ledge hops, ledge climbs and ledge rolls (if you space yourself correctly from the ledge and time it right). Jab catches anything from the ledge. If they drop from the ledge and try to jump back on stage while attacking, that's probably when d-tilt/f-tilt/f-smash/ is probably good.... or jab but it depends on the range of the attack. You can replace u-smash with u-tilt but I prefer using U-smash not because it's more useful but because it deals more damage, has more KO power, and it has some horizontal hitbox (the initial hit at least) but I'm sure u-tilt is also useful since it's basically quicker and safer (But it's useless against ledge rolls). There's d-smash too which is also effective against ledge options thanks to its multiple hitboxes but that start up is gross. Makes it too easy to predict

Thoughts on this?

I'd say you hit the nail on ledge graders with Shulk. I also tend to use Shulks aerial attacks as a means of spacing and catching someone off guard. N-Air to put them in a block situation if spaced with a Monado Art active and the D-Air follow up to see if I can surprise someone. Maybe with Pivot Sliding D-Smash can get more use and probably be used to catch ledge rolls.

 

[Zatchiel]

From my experience it's tricky to consistently time raw smash attacks to punish standard ledge get-ups, especially with f-smash. They almost always manage to get their shield up in time for the first or second hit and I get punished for it of course. So unless I predict a ledge roll, ledge jump (upward angle can catch these well), or ledgehops/ledge camp I wouldn't try to cover ledge options with f-smash.

If I'm trying to kill out of shield up smash seems to have the best coverage depending on how you space yourself. If they react by just getting up from the ledge, if you aren't shielding then they are commonly going to shield depending on how close you are. Whereas if you are shielding then they most likely won't (to avoid getting grabbed while just being parked in shield), they will go for a dodge instead or just try to grab you unless they have a speedy attack which you can just bait and counter for sometimes devastating results.

If I'm just trying to rack up damage then I usually aim to punish their ledge decision with a grab and work my way from there; most preferably by throwing them back off or toward the nearest ledge (unless I'm going for an aerial chase). D-tilt is also great, as is n-air since either are going to be keeping your opponent offstage while allowing you to follow up with aerial pressure if you land a hit. Also, empty SHFF is still godly for either purpose at the ledge. The lateral range on our aerials is always a convincing threat.

 

[erico9001]

OOS AS or OOS RAS are great options for ledge grabbers. Space yourself a certain distance from the edge. Umm, describing this distance is hard, so I'll use the distance between Shulk's two feet as reference. Anywhere from like ~1x to ~2x the distance between Shulk's feet should work (farther works better for when they jump). From here, you can respond to each of the options. For an attack, even if it hits your shield (unlike shield grabs, often) you should be close enough for AS to hit. For a roll, you should be close enough to them for RAS to hit. If they jump up from the ledge, AS or RAS will work; it all depends on your distance from the ledge and if they are moving forward with the jump. Aim for being far enough from the ledge so that normal AS works, but if you happen to end up closer you may need a RAS to get the job done. At this distance, AS also hits opponents who are holding onto the ledge without invincibility. However, whether you land the second hit with the move depends on the opponent's height and weight. Tall characters hang lower, so do not end up as high (ZSS), while heavy characters do not take as much knockback (Wario). I don't have a full list of what works and not, but being in Monado Jump makes it very unlikely to land the second hit against seemingly everybody except like Jigglypuff (who is actually hit by the second attack while Vanilla Shulk when she usually isn't). If they let go of the ledge and jump in, you can AS them. If you AS them before they take step back onto land, keeping in mind they used their air jump in getting back onto the stage, then they may be screwed if AS sends them too far for their up B to recover them.

--Side note: Air Slash might be a good option against a hanging Ganondorf in general, because Dtilt and F-Smash don't seem to work and D-Smash barely does (only the third hit and you must be at the perfect range).

I brought up using OOS AS for edge grabbers a while ago and Masonomace replied saying that turning around before shielding might even be better. You just replace what was AS with RAS and vice versa. I agree with this. An issue with OOS AS for covering rolls is while yes, it works to hit them, they aren't sent back off the stage. Being turned around near the ledge may intimidate them from rolling (they expect you to just attack them right away), so it works out for the best. For this, it might be useful to know that when walking you can quickly turn around by flicking the joystick (like with perfect pivots).

 

[Masonomace]

Anyone wanna talk about Shulk's options against ledge grabbers? Like, we know that f-smash can hit them off but that only works when they're not invincible (usually happens when they regrab the ledge). Thanks to more Shulk videos, it seems like jab and u-smash are good against any option from the ledge. U-smash catches ledge hops, ledge climbs and ledge rolls (if you space yourself correctly from the ledge and time it right). Jab catches anything from the ledge. If they drop from the ledge and try to jump back on stage while attacking, that's probably when d-tilt/f-tilt/f-smash/ is probably good.... or jab but it depends on the range of the attack. You can replace u-smash with u-tilt but I prefer using U-smash not because it's more useful but because it deals more damage, has more KO power, and it has some horizontal hitbox (the initial hit at least) but I'm sure u-tilt is also useful since it's basically quicker and safer (But it's useless against ledge rolls). There's d-smash too which is also effective against ledge options thanks to its multiple hitboxes but that start up is gross. Makes it too easy to predict

Thoughts on this?

Out of Shulk's strong suits, we do naturally zone the ledge fairly well with our range, so let's talk ledge-guarding on the stage.

Besides the tactic of trying to ledge-trump them (which we can do with Monado Art cycling & then split-second ledge-hogging & flick backwards, making Shulk face toward them off-stage & proceed with DJ > F-air by the time the Art self-activates), we have multiple move choices to zone the ledge preventing them getting on the stage.

Jab-1
-defeats the ledge-climb option
-can hold the A button down to make our Jab-1 rapidly fast to catch the ledge-climb option, & the ledge-jump option

F-tilt
-usually pivoted to avoid being punished by the ledge-attack option in case you're too close, & it can still reach to hit them (unless they're a small or thin character, or someone who crouches just as they finish ledge-climbing onto the stage)
-pivoted F-tilt defeats the ledge-roll option

U-tilt
-amazing anti-air option covering the ledge-jump option easily with it's arch, from the front or back
-can be used close by to defeat the ledge-climb option because it still has a hit-box in front of Shulk

N-air
-can be Short Hopped facing left or right for the hit from behind or the swinging arch in front & around to cover most options

F-air
-can RAR SH > F-air to hit them, or we can normally just SH > F-air on the stage to cover their roll, climb, or jump option

D-air
-SH > D-air can connect with the 2nd hit, & we can just drift forward a bit to avoid the landing lag on stage. We can cross-up from this situation by Double Jumping backwards with another aerial, or simply just drift back towards the stage & follow-up from there

Air Slash
The range it hits them from being on the stage is insane. . .if I've learned anything, it's that from just watching @SiLeNtDo0m play a match, he used an Air Slash while being grounded to scoop up someone while they were recovering to the ledge, & denied them that chance. The moral of the story is to never sleep on Air Slash. . .& I like that @ erico9001 brought up Air Slash in this mix. As proof of this move's range on the ground, you can hit a ledge-hanging Jigglypuff with D-tilt, & then you can do the exact same thing with Air Slash from relatively the same distance & potentially KO her.

Another example of ledge-hanging range comparison, you can try hitting a ledge-hanging ROB with D-tilt on Battlefield, but when you can't reach with a good grounded tilt like that, Air Slash is barely in range to scoop him up. Sheesh.

Erico's post about Air Slash is well-informing, & to add to it, holding up on the analog stick, or holding towards the direction you're facing makes a difference; holding forward can hit from a farther distance rather than holding up, no matter the option you're trying to punish whether it's ledge-climb, ledge-roll, ledge-jump, or ledge-attack. Anyways, I approve of Air Slash ledge-guarding.

U-smash vs U-tilt
About the decision-making choice between using U-tilt & U-smash for zoning the ledge however, I feel U-tilt is still better. U-smash is powerful & can seal a stock easily if the ledge-climb, or ledge-roll read is success, yet a slight error in our read of using U-smash can result in the 1st hit that would normally pop them up into the 2nd hit, to be DI'd away, avoiding our 2nd hit if they hold right or left depending on where they're at when attacked by the 1st hit, & that's no good. U-tilt has more solid anti-air potential because it's arch is wide & vertically reaches higher to hit airborne than U-smash, & when it comes to the stage selection, Battlefield's ledge areas are perfect for U-tilt to feel more homie with those platforms. Not to mention U-smash's 2nd hit beam is so narrow that even a player commiting to the ledge-jump option, can hold away with the analog stick to reduce the forward movement in the air enough to avoid the U-smash's narrow hit-box, that U-tilt would easily cover.

 

[Berserker.]

U-smash is really spacing dependent but yeah, u-tilt is safer

I actually never thought of using air slash against ledge grabbers.... Air slash getting better though the more we take advantage of its insane range. Great anti-air (A bit of a gamble as an anti-air), comes out a frame 10, pretty good damage output if both hits connect, and ridiculously powerful knockback. This was posted a looong time ago but I recall us talking about ledge dropping and reversing air slash. for edgeguarding. You guys still doing this?

Another ledge trump option, what about air slashing backwards when you trump them off the ledge?

 

[TheHopefulHero]

Seems do-possible, we only need to watch out if they air-dodge right away after the ledge triumph. If we miss, we're vulnerable until we land / regrab the edge, and during that time, we can get recked by certain fighters (namely Wario and Captain Falcon). It's risky, but it might be worth it especially if you're running Mighty Air Slash. That's just my take on it, though an option is always an option, namely when your oppoenent is starting to get used to Shulk's other attacks.

 

[Berserker.]

Seems do-possible, we only need to watch out if they air-dodge right away after the ledge triumph. If we miss, we're vulnerable until we land / regrab the edge, and during that time, we can get recked by certain fighters (namely Wario and Captain Falcon). It's risky, but it might be worth it especially if you're running Mighty Air Slash. That's just my take on it, though an option is always an option, namely when your oppoenent is starting to get used to Shulk's other attacks.

Should note, air slash has 2 hits. They air dodge the first hit, they'll still get hit by the second hit which also has insane range unless they FF air dodge which is actually a good option. They don't have to air dodge it though if the first hit of air slash completely whiffs and misses

Also, I'm not suggesting that we air slash such that the second hit will make use end up way above the edge. Rather, we should space air slash such that we'll probably end up maybe just slightly above the edge so that we can immediately drift backwards back to the ledge

 

[FOcast]

I haven't tested this very much yet, but properly spaced Bair can cover a LOT of ledge options. If you space it with the tip of the attack going just over the ledge, the beam will cover neutral and jump getups, and the blade can cover rolling in. I'm going to practice combining this with art canceling to add in the option of grabbing if it gets shielded on neutral or whiffs on roll.

 

[Nammy12]

Kind of random but I see that most characters with a "quick to ground" (Yoshi, Bowser bombs, etc) move tend to use them when you do an u-throw.
This is basically a free setup for counter.
It works better when you're at higher percents and they start to get desperate for the kill.
Of course, the best option for them is to jump or airdodge.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I usually use nair against people on the edge. It covers all options (get up, jump, roll, etc.) Basically, it does the same thing that Focast said bair does, but nair is less laggy so it gives you a quicker option if you don't need the knockback of bair.

 

[Berserker.]

Can anyone check for me on how safe jab is on shield when in buster art?

 

[Masonomace]

Whether it's only Jab-1, or the entire Jab combo with Buster active, it's still not safe on shield.

 

[DavemanCozy]

This thread is massive now. Good stuff everyone here, I like seeing this character get all the possible love

I read above the thing with jab -> air slash in Smash monado, I just tested it on 3DS and it's NOT a true combo (game's counter did not register it). Regardless, it is a very good mixup to net the KO since it's still really fast. Reminds me jab -> jab2 -> Usmash with Fox, not a true combo but very valuable if you're unpredictable with it

 

[Berserker.]

Edit: No it doesn't

Worth the double post

D-tilt's range > F-tilt's range. My bad >.>

EDIT 2 AGAIN

I give up. I don't know which of them have longer range. @ Masonomace test it please. lol

@ Nammy12
@ S.F.L.R_9

Hold it for a minute. I'll wait for Masonomace to try it out

 

[Masonomace]

@ Berserker. it varies based on the character's hurt-box. If you take a skinny character that doesnt have big feet, or a huge nose, D-tilt reaches farther than F-tilt.

Speaking of range, perhaps we should list off Shulk's moves in terms of range longest to shortest vertically & horizontally?

(I will edit this when I finished testing the ranges of the moves)