The Winning Steak Cinemas: Video Archive & Criticism Thread Updated

[Umby]

PS: Someone critique Wolfy's videos for him, he asked and no one has yet to respond.

On it.

Critique:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyWWWocsl3k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JLtCgVVjZw

Match 1: You're going to have to learn to maneuver around the field on fit a bit better vs Wario. If Wario's waiting for you to Spin Dash/Charge, don't take the bait. Cancel it or jump out of it. If you're trying to bait and punish an attack, don't wait for it and roll behind him. You're going to get read and punished sooner or later. Especially don't roll towards him with your back turned. Some of your forward aerial attack strings were nice, but you should learn to limit yourself to using it only when it can be auto canceled. Dropping through low platforms with it isn't really a good idea.

Match 2: Starting off, same problems as in the first video. Don't shield grab if the opponent is clearly out of range. If you can't see that, start using other options out of shield to train yourself.

Really the main peev is how immobile you are. It seems you are using dodge rolling and Spin Dash to get around the stage. Use Sonic's natural ground speed to your advantage more.

 

[Wolfric]

PS: Someone critique Wolfy's videos for him, he asked and no one has yet to respond.

Thanks, I wasn't gonna pop them back up if they were forgotten, good thing you did it for me heheh ^^;

Match 1: You're going to have to learn to maneuver around the field on fit a bit better vs Wario. If Wario's waiting for you to Spin Dash/Charge, don't take the bait. Cancel it or jump out of it. If you're trying to bait and punish an attack, don't wait for it and roll behind him. You're going to get read and punished sooner or later. Especially don't roll towards him with your back turned. Some of your forward aerial attack strings were nice, but you should learn to limit yourself to using it only when it can be auto canceled. Dropping through low platforms with it isn't really a good idea.

Match 2: Starting off, same problems as in the first video. Don't shield grab if the opponent is clearly out of range. If you can't see that, start using other options out of shield to train yourself.

Really the main peev is how immobile you are. It seems you are using dodge rolling and Spin Dash to get around the stage. Use Sonic's natural ground speed to your advantage more.

Yeah funny fact, I noticed about most of the things you saw when watching the matches after I uploade dthem, I'll soon post another 2/3 against my friend and we'll see~

 

[Chis]

These are kinda old

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCRMhNJZlkQ&feature=channel_page Mushroomring (Sonic) vs. Smeesh (Peach) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkPhk3hCmaA&feature=channel_page Mushroomring (Sonic) vs. Smeesh (Peach) 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0VGYX7Goqs&feature=channel_page Mushroomring (Sonic) vs. Smeesh (Peach) 3

Hm, seems no one has given you advice yet :/

Well I've watched all the videos, some nice kills I must say. Uair/Fair/Dash attack out of shield is better than Spring OoS imo. These are way better at punishing since all springing did was put you high in the air. Speaking of which, you should stop the spring to Dair habit. All it really did was waste time, if you want to prevent getting juggled, double jump/spin shot in the desired direction. Only spring to Dair as a last resort as repetitive use is easily telegraphed.

You often dashed to the other side of the stage and either SDR, hyphen up smashed or dashed back for an attack. Try and mix up SDR with some cancels. Hold the spin dash for a second before canceling it and watch how they react and such. Homing attack = bad as always. This is taken from experience ( by getting homing attack ***** by a good Peach many times). Never use Dair to momentum cancel, stick with fast fall Fair. Stick with Ftilt for spacing, you’ll be wanting to kill Peach with a fresh Fsmash asap.

Finally you shouldn’t really feel the need to rush into Peach's attacks, try and space more carefully with Bairs and your dashes and up throw her as much as you can. Her air dodge is the worst in the game and your Uair > Her Dair. Also her Fairs can be telegraphed at killing percentages so avoid that as best as you can and you’ll be living for a long time.

 

[Browny]

ugh those wes vids were good but seriously i hope he can explain to us WTF was with all those grab release - fail combos. how many times do you have to lose a 33% damage trade off (12% uthrow vs 21% ftilt) before you realise its not a good choice >_<

 

[ShadoFiend]

I went to a tourney the other day to play the pros of my region.

I only played one match vs the top icess in my region, MEeP that got saved. Someone is recording it for us. Gotta say that match up. Is a painn..in the butttttttt

I also got some doubles vids coming i think. Not sure if those are getting uploaded. I also played Boss' mario. I could handle it. He threw out the luigi though. I got 2 stocked Too bad they didnt get recorded. Also played Zucco the lucario in tourney. Took the first game. lost the second and third all close games. That match up is sooooooo ********..I gotta get better at it. He said I had better mix ups than Shugo <3

 

[Trent]

Here's a friendly match I played with one of the top Snakes of the midwest, I didn't post the other one because I played like an idiot and don't want to even count it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPWqDv8PXeY&feature=channel_page

I just got done breaking the dodge rolling habbit too, and now I spam the crap out of it, the hells wrong with me. Besides the Dodge Rolling, feedback would be appreciated, thanks! :D

 

[B.A.M.]

hey guys i played R*ich Brown the Olimar main the other day at a tourney as well as Havok, CPU the D3 main, and some good MKs. I wish i got the saves though but did great vs Oli, got wrecked by CPU ( someone needs to teach me that matchup besides FullHop Fairs and crap). Tyranttt was there but i didnt get a chance to play him and i only played MikeHazze's Snake lol. I think im getting the olimar match up down for sure D3 freakin wrecks Sonic in my opinion after playing CPU (if anyone has vids to show me how to play D3 please post them). I pretty much owned the metas there save Tyrantt and Havok of course lol. I did get a chance to play Havok's metaknight and besides cutting down on dumb misteaks on my part i feel i have a very sound approach to metaknight.


EDIT:


I forgot to mention moments before the tourney I watched your vs IC vids Espy and I must say that definitely aided me in the matchup. There were some cases where nana did have enough damage to die from a Fsmash and you went for the damage instead. I would also recommend Dsmash as well to get nana due to the low trajectory and the IASA frames you can send nana in a terrible spot where you can just work on popo while nana fails at recovering.very good baits. Also people tend to act really stupid once they reach the 3rd part of RC; for instance hylian going under the platform to side-b to get back on the stage here you can go for a easy spring trap, get down and FH or DJ uair away. Again great movement and baits as usual, and your keying in on nana was perfect. Kudos to you dear sir. Lastly, no necessarily a gripe against you but some ICs will pivot grab some of your approaches. I didnt see Hylian doing it too much if at all. Whether your baiting/mindgames were very effective ( which is VERY possible with your skill) or Hylian isnt too great with grabbing approches , you did very well. In all honesty I believe your mindgames and smart use of the spin game ( I saw some use of the Spin Dash's invincibility which is great, id love to see more sonic's abuse those frames) while picking at nana was perfect for the most part.NEVER FORGET YOUR SPACING! You can always reset your position with sonic is the spacing isnt right. Gotta remember that in some situations. Smart Aggro seems to tear ICs apart literally. Good stuff Espy, and hey get some vids playing a Snake or D3, i would love to see your new style vs some sound mains of these characters.

 

[Espy Rose]

First two weren't recorded, but here's me doing terrible against Vex in our $1.00 MM.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MF1N8kX9vKg&fmt=18 - Espy (Sonic) vs. Vex (Bowser) 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1onAUbr4-uA&fmt=18 - Espy (Sonic) vs. Vex (Bowser) 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4123ngU951g&fmt=18 - Espy (Sonic) vs. Vex (Bowser) 5

I did bad. Rarely any tilts, poor choices in terms of punishment and edgeguarding, and a bad counterpick in the fifth game, something I should have figured out after game 3.

And you get to see two of my countless number of lovely SDs at HOBO in the 3rd and 5th matches, respectively (Vex reset the match, not me).

HOBO19 just wasn't my day.

Oh, and Bowser is still 50:50, at best for us/worst for Bowser. Having a practically lagless attack that covers an area half the size of the ****ing moon renders at least 80% of Sonic's options useless. Then you gotta worry about upB oos.

This match up is absolutely ********. I'd rather play MikeHaze's Marth in another ten games. At least his character has lag.

Thank the gods that Bowser blows against a bunch of high tier characters, or this'd be an even bigger pain in the arse.

EDIT: Updated Videos into first posts.

 

[infomon]

Here's a friendly match I played with one of the top Snakes of the midwest, I didn't post the other one because I played like an idiot and don't want to even count it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPWqDv8PXeY&feature=channel_page

I just got done breaking the dodge rolling habbit too, and now I spam the crap out of it, the hells wrong with me. Besides the Dodge Rolling, feedback would be appreciated, thanks! :D

You would've survived the last KO if you'd used a different aerial and fastfalled it.
Sonic's Dair is the only aerial in the game, that I know of, which cannot be fastfalled during hitstun. It's the worst thing you could ever do to momentum cancel.

and yeah, the rolling was painful lol
a hard habit to break, I know!

 

[Kinzer]

Definitely need to break the habit of rolling.

I'd also like you to either practice the MU more, or somehow learn to manage Grenades/C4s/Mines better. So much damage that could've been prevented. :/

I also wonder if it's possible to iSDR through Grenades and/or their explosion. I haven't done any testing on that, but if it is, well then there ya go.

 

[Trent]

You would've survived the last KO if you'd used a different aerial and fastfalled it.
Sonic's Dair is the only aerial in the game, that I know of, which cannot be fastfalled during hitstun. It's the worst thing you could ever do to momentum cancel.

and yeah, the rolling was painful lol
a hard habit to break, I know!

Really? I always spam Dair when I'm sent upwards, should I use Fair or something instead?

Definitely need to break the habit of rolling.

I'd also like you to either practice the MU more, or somehow learn to manage Grenades/C4s/Mines better. So much damage that could've been prevented. :/

I also wonder if it's possible to iSDR through Grenades and/or their explosion. I haven't done any testing on that, but if it is, well then there ya go.

I swear if you look at my matches now, I don't even roll again XD I think I musta felt intimidated that match or something. The only practice I get against high tier characters, is sadly at tournaments too. Try to get in as many friendlies as possible when I'm there of course.

 

[Camalange]

FF Fair > Down B

^^The best momentum canceling method. Nothing else. This works for both horizontal and vertical trajectory.

 

[Trent]

FF Fair > Down B

^^The best momentum canceling method. Nothing else. This works for both horizontal and vertical trajectory.

I feel like a nub for not knowing that, I always just spammed the C-Stick for Fair for horizontal and it for Dair on Vertical. Does that mean FF Fair TOO a Down B, or FF Fair is the best, Down B being 2nd best?

 

[Kinzer]

FF Fair followed by a Down-B.

 

[Trent]

FF Fair followed by a Down-B.

****. I musta missed something in the guides and FAQs when I picked up Sonic way back when, lol. Yay one more thing to practice..

 

[infomon]

yeah. Note that's "FF Fair", ie. Fastfalled Fair. For best results, you need to tap down (either control-stick or C-stick) at the frame exactly after the one where you input the fair (it might be possible to do them both in one frame, ie. C-stick the Fair and tap down on the control-stick at the same time, I'm not sure). But you do NOT want to be holding down you start the Fair (some ppl "n00b-DI" ie. hold the stick towards the stage when they get hit lol which is both bad DI and it stops you from being able to fastfall until you release the stick(s) and then tap one of them down again to fastfall, lol).

 

[Browny]

is that charging the downb or releasing it... i use fair/uair to momentum cancel all the time, hard to remeber to downb since sonic is like the only character i play who uses a b move to momentum cancel :/

 

[infomon]

You want to release the down-B as soon as possible. On release it has a "braking" effect, where it completely sets Sonic's velocity (horizontal and vertical) irrespective of any residual knockback momentum.

It saves us a bunch horizontally. Vertically it can also help, but rare circumstances indeed where you have the time to pull it off. On typical stages/attacks it's a range of one or two % afaik. Definitely more on Jungle Japes.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i like side b better when im sent horizontally
ff fair to down b, wont save you from zeldas downsmash. itll probably make it worse actually.

 

[Orange_Soda_Man]

I've been killed by my Side-B right at the edge before. Worthy of caution, at least.

 

[Chis]

Side Bing kills me far to often :/

 

[Camalange]

I've been killed by my Side-B right at the edge before. Worthy of caution, at least.

Side Bing kills me far to often :/

That's because Side B is a whack MC (lol)

Side B on charge/release pushes Sonic BACK and will actually kill you SOONER whereas Down B will stop ALL MOMENTUM on release. Down B is always the best choice, never Side B.

Side B is good for RECOVERY though when you have a second jump and want a little boost up and horizontal distance...but NEVER for MC.

CAPS

 

[Espy Rose]

Added two more videos from HOBO19:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mofFltzpM6k&fmt=18 - Espy (Sonic) + Zori (Olimar) vs. Bear (Wario) + Ice (Snake) 1 New!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1He_zhrHS3Y&fmt=18 - Espy (Sonic) + Zori (Olimar) vs. Bear (Wario) + Ice (Snake) 2 New!!

 

[4nace]

Hey ESPY, I just watched your 3 vids from the MM you had vs Vex's Bowser and I was wondering if you have learned anything new about that match-up that you could give me tips on. I wondering what the best ways to avoid his up and side B are and just some general tips on the match-up. You did really well vs him as is, and if you hadn't suicided that last game... Also its funny that you guys restarted that game you won, that one was a nail biter.

Anyway, yea. I was wondering if you have learned anything since then as I have little to no Bowser experience.

Thanks,
4nace

 

[~TBS~]

Im improving greatly.

Good. new keep it up with no negative thoughts.

Espy, in your vex matches, you were more aggro than i have ever saw you. o.o Dont worry about it. You will get him next time. Also, ugh team Wario and Snake. Olimar had to do most of the killing huh? Also, wow at the team combo in the first match. Snake ftilt>Wario Footstool>Snake ftilt. Team combos?

 

[Trent]

That's because Side B is a whack MC (lol)

Side B on charge/release pushes Sonic BACK and will actually kill you SOONER whereas Down B will stop ALL MOMENTUM on release. Down B is always the best choice, never Side B.

Side B is good for RECOVERY though when you have a second jump and want a little boost up and horizontal distance...but NEVER for MC.

CAPS

Should I just hit Down B once then release the charge, or try to get as many charges as I can before releasing to kill momentum? Or is it all the same regardless of speed?

 

[Kinzer]

One charge is enough to cancel all your momentum.

Just be sure that you don't end up doing it too fast for your own good, you know... getting that dead-charge as I like to call it.

 

[ShadoFiend]

kk Here is my match vs MEeP! the Icees. Ive been working on this new style of Sonic for awhile and here it is put all together. Please Critic me and my Scrubness *bows*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNPgJ82EyPw

 

[Trent]

I'm not an expert Sonic or anything, so I wouldn't be able to give you awesome expert advise.

But I did notice you spin dashing into the ICs constantly, and they learned the timing and started shield grabbing you to punish it. (One of the shield grabs from your SD going from 56% to your death). Later on in the match I saw you SDing and jumping out of the way before getting grabbed, Mind games wot?

 

[Umby]

Heads up. I have a new notebook, so I SHOULD be able to start recording/uploading videos again. Expect some in the near future.

 

[Camalange]

Shado, great job! Although it's only a friendly and I could tell Meep didn't know exactly how to play against a Sonic, you still played really well. Glad you're finally developing your own playstyle.

also, Bair much? yous totally learnin' from teh Camalange (;

 

[da K.I.D.]

for the record, those couple times where meep had one IC shield the spindash and the other grab you during the hitlag was pro, but he got too reliant on it, and couldnt do it more than a few times.

 

[Kinzer]

I'm not an expert Sonic or anything, so I wouldn't be able to give you awesome expert advise.

But I did notice you spin dashing into the ICs constantly, and they learned the timing and started shield grabbing you to punish it. (One of the shield grabs from your SD going from 56% to your death). Later on in the match I saw you SDing and jumping out of the way before getting grabbed, Mind games wot?

Perhaps Shado is just abusing SDR cause of iSDR?

Heads up. I have a new notebook, so I SHOULD be able to start recording/uploading videos again. Expect some in the near future.

Alright!

Shado, if you haven't already, take a look on what I said in your blog.

If only you would join the Steak-side, how awesome would that be...

 

[ShadoFiend]

Thanks for the feedback guys. Im really pushing my Scourge to the next level. If no one else wants to be green I'll take the top alone!

Lol Kinzer sorry im not one of the Steakers. But you have people like Espy, Speed, etc. You dont need one more. I dyed my hair green today and bought Red shades rofl. There is no going back for me

 

[infomon]

I dyed my hair green today and bought Red shades rofl. There is no going back for me

vids pl0x

in this thread ftw

 

[Kinzer]

Lol Kinzer sorry im not one of the Steakers. But you have people like Espy, Speed, etc. You dont need one more. I dyed my hair green today and bought Red shades rofl. There is no going back for me

Fair enough Shado.

I always thought "the more the merrier", but I can't force you.

Just promise me you won't stop being kickass. ^_-

And I second Infzy's notion.

 

[Camalange]

vids pl0x

in this thread ftw

Black Boxob with shades??

 

[infomon]

Black Boxob with shades??

KIDgoggles !!??

 

[~TBS~]

Thanks for the feedback guys. Im really pushing my Scourge to the next level. If no one else wants to be green I'll take the top alone!

Lol Kinzer sorry im not one of the Steakers. But you have people like Espy, Shugo, etc. You dont need one more. I dyed my hair green today and bought Red shades rofl. There is no going back for me

fixed. lol @ infzy and Cammy

Shado always *****, so its no surprise that he beat Meep...Im sure that Shado can take the whole set.

 

[da K.I.D.]

lol what the hell is going on here?