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Okay, so I was watching Dren vs Jurn, and I have a few comments.
The thing that stood out to me most was that every time Kirby got the better of Yoshi was in some kind of scramble situation. Both Kirby and Yoshi have a 3 frame jab, so Kirby is at no disadvantage after a clank, and as listed earlier Kirby can actually low profile Yoshi's jab, allowing him to win scrambles if he does, say, DTilt.
This makes me think that the proper way for Kirby to play this matchup is to try to force situations and generally go in really hard when he has the chance. Granted, some of this may just be the player, Dren's Yoshi is very patient and he doesn't gamble very much, so there's less risk of going in on him. I play a much more read-heavy Yoshi and I would be tossing out some spot dodges to keep Kirby honest, as Yoshi gets a huge punish on a successful spot dodge. I also think DTilt -> FSmash is escapable, Dren just didn't react quickly enough.
In general I feel like FD is the best stage for Yoshi's keep away since the platforms basically just give you more ways to escape. Against opponents whom Yoshi cannot effectively zone (Fox, Sheik, Little Mac, Pikachu, etc), Smashville may be a better choice so Yoshi can escape if he needs to.
Vs Kirby in particular I definitely feel like flatter stages are better since he's easily pestered by eggs. You can see this in the Dren set, Kirby just has to work real hard to get in.
If you want to discuss this more you're welcome to send me a PM.
Alright, you yellow-bellied cowards, my challenge is once again up! I'll be around for the next 7 to 8 hours (until 6 or 7pm Central Time). Let's get some match up experience!
I'm fully aware that Mario's up-smash has invincibility. The game tells you that. And how weak are his Fireballs if they can be stopped by Kirby's jab? And I hope you don't mean clashing with the Fireball.
It is a clash. Very Interesting... since jabbing Villager's Lloid doesn't result a in clash. Anyways, this means once you are within range you can challenge fireball with a strong move like Nair, Fair, Bair, and Smash.
No one is underestimating Mario's Fireball. Man, I wish Kirby had Mario's fireball. This move is amazing and will make matchup easier for us. They are one of reasons this is an uphill battle. Still you can attack them.
Also, have you ever kill anyone using Dair? I have never done or seen it done.
Anyways, Mario Match-Up
I want to talk the cons before the pros.
Cons: Mario is a combo master and in this game he is a Godsend. His air speed and combo is something Kirby wish he had. In one jump, he can do at least 2 aerials. Nair comes at 3 frames and is a sex kick. Uair (frame 4) cover a nice radius. Dair (frame 5) is amazing damage builder and cross-up. I believe it can auto cancel too. Bair (frame 6) isn't as danger as it once was (term of killing) but is still add some nice damage. Fair (frame 16) is Fair.
On Ground, Dtilt, Jab and Smashes. USmash has invincible frames, Fsmash is the strongest kill and Dsmash sweep well.
Grab - Dthrow for combos and Bthrow for kill. You cannot duck his grabs.
Special - Fireball I already touched upon. Respect it. Up B has invincible frames and out of at Frame 1 (or 3?). It rack up good damage. Ally (a Mario Main) loves using it. Cape is Cape (because be careful during Final Cutter). I believe Fludd has been buffed. Push back is good and it can stop projectiles.
Pros: Kirby has 5 jumps (baiting and recovery) and I believe our ground game is better. By having the overall "lowest" aerial lag, we "should" be able to transition between air to ground smoothly. What we lack in speed, we make up with range/priority. Kirby's hitbox (minus Upair) extend bit further than Mario. We are light, so we get to out combo easier (Kirby jump out of dthrow->Uptilt). Though we die soon.
Suck can lead to Swallow for Mario's awesome Fireball or Kirby-Suicide (because Mario recovery is average). Multiple Jumps save us from being gimp and Fludd will sometimes pop Kirby up (I still haven't figure why). Kirby's Utilt, Upsmash, and Dsmash have invincible frames. Kirby's Bair Kills (OoS option).
Copy Power: Its the famous Mario Fireball. The move can sort assist Kirby in his approach, retreat and gimp. Of course, Mario can reflect or block them but that doesn't matter man. Multiple Jump+Fireball gives you fun utilities like B-Reverse.
Stage Counter Pick: To tell you the truth, I don't know. Platform aids Mario's Aerial Movement and Combat Ability. FD aids his "Zoning".
General Notes:
We are both Combo Monster ( very loose term for Kirby) but Mario is way better at it. I believe around 40-50% his combo stops working and it just rack up damage enough until he gets a good hard around 100%. As Kirby, I want to be always even level and mid range of Mario. Being too close will aid his combo tactics. Being too far helps his fireball spam. At mid range I have enough time to see what he doing and reaction. Of course, it easier said than done. Being above him is danger but if he starts fishing out Upsmash punish him with Stone or Fast Fall Aerial.
Now, I do believe Kirby have advantage if Mario is direct above us (Can someone prove me wrong here). Utilt beats his Dair. He has be close to Nair and Fireball dips.
Overall, I find Mario fun to fight. His Airspeed, Combos, and Fireballs make him 40:60 in Mario's favor. He isn't Yoshi status difficult but still an uphill battle.
I don't want to talk about . He was my secondary in Brawl and I don't like his changes now. But I will drop notes:
-He cannot combo from his grab apparently.
-I hope you practice your perfect shield. Because you are going to need it.
-If Yoshi doesn't know any better, you can Footstool his Second Jump. (I advice to use this tactic on the Last Stock)
-I don't know if Lay Egg (Option Select) is more useful than Inhale (Suicide).
It is a clash. Very Interesting... since jabbing Villager's Lloid doesn't result a in clash. Anyways, this means once you are within range you can challenge fireball with a strong move like Nair, Fair, Bair, and Smash.
No one is underestimating Mario's Fireball. Man, I wish Kirby had Mario's fireball. This move is amazing and will make matchup easier for us. They are one of reasons this is an uphill battle. Still you can attack them.
Also, have you ever kill anyone using Dair? I have never done or seen it done.
Kirby can copy Mario's fireballs and due to his five jumps he uses them better. I'm not sure if he prefers the Command Grab though.
D-air can kill at 140%+ if used pretty high on the stage. Otherwise I wouldn't worry about it's killing potential. It also doesn't auto-cancel, it's our second laggiest aerial to land with, but still abusable since it constantly covers Mario throughout the entire animation and he maintains mobility during cooldown frames, unlike Luigi/Doc.
Up-B has frame 3-6 invincibility.
I wouldn't bother attempting a Kirby suicide. Good players will mash hellishly fast, and I've personally developed fast mashing skills after dealing with infinities in Brawl. Mario's vertical recovery is good enough that he can nullify any attempts at suicide.
Kirby can copy Mario's fireballs and due to his five jumps he uses them better. I'm not sure if he prefers the Command Grab though.
D-air can kill at 140%+ if used pretty high on the stage. Otherwise I wouldn't worry about it's killing potential. It also doesn't auto-cancel, it's our second laggiest aerial to land with, but still abusable since it constantly covers Mario throughout the entire animation and he maintains mobility during cooldown frames, unlike Luigi/Doc.
Up-B has frame 3-6 invincibility.
I wouldn't bother attempting a Kirby suicide. Good players will mash hellishly fast, and I've personally developed fast mashing skills after dealing with infinities in Brawl. Mario's vertical recovery is good enough that he can nullify any attempts at suicide.
I don't! I prefer Fireball over Inhale to make neutral game easier.
It doesn't auto cancel? I fought someone that Dair into Dtilt. No wonder I could reproduce it. I guess it was my fault I got hit. I noticed Kirby's statue makes SH Dair hard to land.
Yeah, Frame Data says it frame 3 but people keep saying you can activate on the first frame (like Pikachu). Well, it doesn't matter. Kirby's fastest attack is Jab (frame 3). So we cannot do anything about it.
Hmm... fair enough. That will be bad since escaping Inhale put you above Kirby meaning easy to Footstool.
Thank you for the correction. Anything else I am missing?
In one of my tournament matches against Mario I was doing exceptionally well and then got hit by his D-air and got KO'd. I don't remember exactly what percent I was at, but it was well below 100%. I think I was high-80s-not-quite-90. Either Rage played a much more profound effect (Mario was close to 130%) or there's some crazy hitbox on it.
I'm pretty sure that d-air has decent enough knockback to be a viable KO option against Kirby. Maybe it could even catch him in the air and snatch a stock from him.
Well, you heard it from one of the Mario Mains. It possible but not something Marios are going to aim for. Besides, you can challenge Dair with Kirby's Fair or Bair.
Anyways, T!mmy. Do you have any suggestion against Mario or Yoshi?
Kirby matchup is easy for Yoshi. You lose in the air, you lose on the ground, its borderline impossible to gimp you, but egg damage is free. If you and the Yoshi are at equal skill level you're gonna lose a lot. If you're playing against a passive yoshi, you can try the old brawl strat and short hop out of his range and hope he does something committal that you can bair. If you're playing against a super aggro one, try to hard read him. You'll lose head on so you kinda have to try to cheese it out.
Learn how his recovery works and try some crazy stuff to gimp him because we're pretty much going to get back on for free if you do something like a bair or a dair. So go for a ballsy double footstool or b reverse inhale or something.
Don't copy us. You having egglay means its open season on your recovery. You are crazy easy to fair, but the risk of inhale is the only thing stopping me from doing it.
Down b only working on bad players is a lie. If your yoshi opponent is going way too ham trying to up air you (which he might because you are really easy to do that to), you can sneak one in.
This matchup will not be fun. At all. You don't have anything reliable so you have to read us. If you have a strong mental game you can make it work though.
Edit: Also someone said something about going on stages with platforms because yoshi doesn't like those. Put it like this: If yoshi was just jumping from platform to platform, could you catch him? For some characters this reasoning would make sense, but Kirby is not one of them. The platforms literally only help you if yoshi is approaching you with eggs. It hurts you in every other situation. This is just talking battlefield though. I'm not sure what other platform heavy stages are legal, but I'm not sure if those would be much better.
Down b only working on bad players is a lie. If your yoshi opponent is going way too ham trying to up air you (which he might because you are really easy to do that to), you can sneak one in.
Just chiming in to say that this is very true. Ground Pounds are definitely real in this game due to decreased endlag, if for nothing else than keeping enemy juggles honest.. Note that unfortunately Yoshi has one too.
Edit: Also someone said something about going on stages with platforms because yoshi doesn't like those. Put it like this: If yoshi was just jumping from platform to platform, could you catch him?
Uhh, yes? If you're suggesting Yoshi can just circle camp Kirby for the timeout (on battlefield of all places), he definitely can't. If Yoshi wants to attempt to run away he has to use his double jump, and after he does his landing becomes punishable.
If you watch Dren vs Jurn, Delfino was the stage where Jurn beat Dren, and it's a platform stage. Kirby clearly has far more legitimate ways to get in on that stage than he did on FD. Now, you could possibly try to attribute this to Upper Cutter (makes punishing Yoshi on platforms much easier) and claim this would be a bad stage pick with Customs off, but honestly I don't think that was the deciding factor. The #1 issue for Kirby in this matchup is eggs, so mitigating eggs is top priority. Yoshi wants to try to run away from you? Fine. At least you're not actively taking damage while he's doing it.
General Overview
There are a lot of similarities that can be found between Kirby and Mario. Both characters are 'all-around' characters in that they don't necessarily excel in any particular trait nor falter greatly in any one area. Furthermore, both Kirby and Mario are close-quarters combatants; that is to say, they fight best when close to their opponent. They both have excellent combo potential and can rack up damage once they get in a hit.
The differences between the two characters can be seen in how they go about fighting. Kirby's prime combo lead would be his D-air while Mario's capitalizes on his D-throw for setting up his combos. Kirby has multiple jumps and is floatier than Mario giving him an easier time when trying to recover back onto the stage whereas Mario struggle more off-stage but is a heavier weight than Kirby which makes him a little tougher to outright KO. These kinds of differences play a vital role in the match-up.
The Neutral Game
The basic situation in this match-up at neutral is either character approaching or Mario taking advantage of his long-range options - generally his Fireball (Standard Special) though he also has F.L.U.D.D. (Down Special). With the time it takes Kirby to approach Mario there's usually no reason not to toss out a Fireball. This serves to put Kirby in the position to defend, jump, or take damage, all of which is beneficial to Mario.
If Kirby hangs back and plays defensive there's nothing to stop Mario from tossing Fireballs indefinitely from a safe distance. Sure, Kirby could just opt not to approach and it's generally true that Mario will likely move in for an approach eventually, but for that period of time Kirby will have to dance around Fireballs. Making headway through Fireballs and creating a little bit of offensive presence in front of Mario is easy enough. Mario's Fireball is not especially safe when the opponent is close up, so as Kirby gets closer it will lead to the cessation of fireballs. About right here is where the "Square Off" begins.
When Kirby is near Mario this is where the most important segments of the fight take place. Both combatants are close-quarter fighters, so both stand to capitalize most in this situation. Successful 'reads' (or, in many a player's case, successful guesswork), will lead to one side or the other in an advantageous position or outright landing an attack. Let's look at some of Mario's options from the Kirby side of things.
Seeing as one of Mario's most rewarding options - at least at lower damage percents - is usually his D-throw, that is the first to consider in a Square Off. In order for Mario to get a Grab on Kirby he has to be in close proximity with Kirby in front of Mario and Kirby cannot be Dodging. So, if Kirby thinks Mario wants a Grab there are a few scenarios he can consider.
1) Mario moves in close and executes Grab
2) Mario uses an auxiliary attack to lead into a Grab
3) Mario opts for Shield and cancels into Grab/Dodge
1) The first scenario is the most straight-forward; Mario wants a Grab, so he moves in and grabs at Kirby when within range. While this method may be seem brutish it can actually be a cunning choice. When Mario moves at Kirby there's the possibility that Mario could be coming in with any number of attacks and, in this instance, utilizing a Shield is a very fast and effective means to deal with all those variable attacks. However, this allows Mario to move in for his intended Grab.
2) The second scenario involves one of those various attacks that Mario could be throwing at Kirby. While Mario could theoretically throw out any air or ground attack of his pleasing we only need to take into account those that work best for his true intention of landing a Grab. Of those, Mario's Aerial Attacks work exceptionally well; specifically N-air, U-air, and D-air. While F-air and B-air can also lead to a Grab they are a little more risky/situational for this basic example. His ground options are a little more narrow, mostly involving U-tilt, D-tilt, or a 'tick-throw' (right now we'll assume Mario will do a Standard Attack-1 (SA[1]) into a Grab for his 'tick-throw').
tick throw
An aggressive strategy by which small and fast attacks are used to provoke an opponent into a defensive posture and to begin blocking. The attacker then follows up with a throw, which gains priority and will normally hit successfully. Tick throws are commonly used as part of pressure, and could be considered a form of trap.
Mario's Aerial Approaches take a little more set-up (he has to be in the air), thus they're a little more telegraphed. Aerial Approaches also have a basic counter: Shield. Since Mario lacks an 'air grab', using a Shield is a strong option to any Aerial he may approach with. (There are, of course, tricks Mario can use, but I'm just covering basic scenarios right now).
Ground leads may be a little more difficult to deal with since they can be fast, hard to punish, and can involve subterfuge (see Scenario #1). But as a basic look at the simple option of Mario moving in with U-tilt, D-tilt, or SA(1) Kirby can deal with those just fine.
A common response to these ground approaches is to simply strike first, usually with an attack that is more likely to beat out the opponent's choice of attack. Unfortunately Kirby is lacking in this general 'priority' - indeed, it seems to be his most common character flaw. However, if you are exceptionally good at reading, spacing and timing, you could probably beat out Mario's attacks with F-tilt or D-tilt. Final Cutter (Up Special) is worth mentioning simply because of it's disjointed hitbox, though it can be easily punished if it whiffs.
Aerial Attacks might be a better option as they allow for more mobility: forward to move in for a first-strike option, backward for a 'fading' defensive option. Aerial Attacks don't clash with ground attacks, which is very useful for Kirby in this situation, but, again, they can be telegraphed and require more commitment. Of Kirby's Aerial Attacks, B-air is perhaps the 'safest' to use in this counter-attack style option due to it's hitbox and strength. F-air is okay, but has less range than B-air and does poorly when pulling away.
3) When Mario approaches one must take into account if he is going to attack and if so which attack is going to be used. A common tactic is to feint an aggressive approach and move into a defensive position using Shield. If Mario moves at Kirby and immediately Shields it can put Kirby into an easy-to-punish position. This is a very fast option which can take advantage of a Kirby who is trying to 'predict' and is throwing out what he hopes is a correct guess. Obvious Grab beats Shield, but since these are very fast choices with little time to respond something like this will come down to a good read (or lucky guess). If you want to be more reactive with less guesswork involved try prodding Mario in this situation with quick, safe attacks, specifically Standard Attack-1 (and/or Standard Attack-2). Spacing and waiting also work well to give yourself a little more time to read your opponent's intentions and see through any feints.
Moving in and baiting with a Shield is common enough in Smash 4 that it can start provoking Grab responses. In order to thwart a Grab response a Shield can be canceled into Dodge. Thus Kirby should keep in mind that always going for a Grab can result in the opponent baiting with Dodge instead. Playing safe with quick attacks or feints of your own will also work here, but so will going risky and charging an F-smash (or swinging a Hammer). This is dependent more on risk-reward, so for the most part Kirby will want to opt to play more safe in situations like this.
Next, let's take a look at Kirby's side of things.
Kirby's approaches are little different from Mario's. For one, he benefits most from landing D-air or U-tilt at lower percents for his combos. For another, Kirby has a more difficult time approaching than Mario does. Also, in general, Kirby will often have more reason to be the one approaching due to Mario's long range options, even if Kirby has copied Fireballs (because Mario has Fireballs + Cape to reflect).
Here are some of Kirby's main approaches:
1) Go for a D-air/Aerial Attack
2) Approach with a ground attack/Grab
3) Approach with Shield/Dodge
1) Hitting the opponent with Kirby's D-air is a strong option because it can lead into many different options, even into KO options. Getting the D-air can be challenging, though. Aerial Attacks, as I've stated before, are already telegraphed: you're in the air, your options become more transparent. On top of that, D-air has a ridiculous amount of start-up (hits on frame 18) which doesn't just telegraph your attack but can outright let your opponent get his hit in first. Because of this, D-air usually can't just be thrown out at whim for Kirby to reap the benefits. It becomes more situational and difficult to land.
With this in mind other Aerial Attacks can be looked at for a quicker approach option. B-air hits on frame 6 and all other aerials, aside from D-air, hit on frame 10. The drawback to using B-air (aside from awkwardly approaching while facing backward) is its lack of combo/follow-up potential. The drawback to using N-air is its short-range, and the drawback to using F-air is its inability to auto-cancel out of a Short Hop (and it's 13 frames of landing lag as opposed to 10 for N-air, 12 for U-air and option to Auto-Cancel B-air from Short Hop). Also, 10 frames of start-up is already a little slow when looking for 'fast' aerial approaches especially considering D-air is just 8 more frames. Considering all this, Kirby's aerial option is mostly to not attack but instead wait/bait and then move in with the appropriate attack when the opportunity presents itself.
2) Approaching on the ground is viable, but you have to deal with possible Fireballs along the way. Also, Kirby's ground approach is weak considering he wants to hit with U-tilt which hits behind/above him. The solution to this is a 'Pivot' into a U-tilt, which requires near-perfect execution along with near-perfect timing and spacing - monumental effort for a simple approach.
F-tilt and D-tilt work as good substitutes for such an approach, but they work best as 'pokes' instead of strong combo leads. Mixing things up into an approach with a Grab is simple and effective, but Kirby's combo potential with a Grab is practically non-existent on Mario.
Staying safe with a Standard Attack (SA1 for a feint, SA2 for a poke with more damage) works well, but the strength is weak and the distance is short so it can be suspect to stronger/longer attacks from Mario. (Watch out for that disjointed F-smash!)
3) It seems like Kirby will be using lots of defensive play in this match-up to try to bait or trump something of Mario's. This generally results in a lot of safe distancing with Shields and Dodges. Having a Shield up against Mario's ground based attacks generally doesn't work well since Kirby can be pushed back too far to punish (Mario doesn't have too much lag recovery for the most part). Dodging can work to Kirby's advantage since it can him close enough to land U-tilts if Mario is vulnerable or to mix-up into a Grab should Mario put up a Shield. The problem is that Rolling can be exploited, especially with Mario's D-smash which hits on both sides. Also, Dodging as Mario moves around with a quick or Auto-canceled Aerial Attack (anything but F-air) will generally not give Kirby the right timing or positioning for a solid punish.
Mario at Advantage
Mario will have an advantageous position at any time he has Kirby caught in a combo, up in the air, or knocked off stage.
When Kirby is caught in a combo, it's usually from some sort of launcher such as D-throw, U-tilt, or U-air. Mario's D-throw can lead into U-tilt at low percents and U-tilt can lead into U-air. Fortunately Kirby's light, floaty physics allow him to escape juggle-type combos more quickly than most other characters. If you find yourself Grabbed and expect D-throw -> U-tilt, try to DI up and away and usually Mario will only be able to pull of one or two U-tilts.
When Kirby is knocked into the air (seen often with Mario's combos) he can have a difficult time getting back to the ground. This is because Mario's ground and air speed outdo Kirby's, but also Mario's Aerial Attacks generally beat out Kirby's. Mario is pretty comfortable throwing out attacks at leisure while Kirby floats around trying to get back to some sort of Neutral position. The best advice for Kirby is to simply be patient and smart and try to avoid anything Mario throws at you.
Off-stage Kirby does fairly well with his multiple jumps. The main problem is at almost any trajectory Kirby takes Mario has something to throw at him. If Kirby goes overhead, Mario can shark from underneath and try to punish any landings. If Kirby goes straight for the ledge, Mario can launch almost any Aerial Attack as Kirby gets near the ledge (watch out for that F-air). If Kirby goes low, Mario can sling Fireballs down as he travels and can KO Kirby with a Cape (Side Special) when a Final Cutter is used for vertical recovery. The safest approach is to travel high (away from Fireballs and Capes) and, if possible, over the stage (to draw Mario away from the ledge) and then retreat to the ledge. If Kirby is forced to approach low, you might want to consider recovering onto the stage (not the ledge) with Final Cutter while facing backward. This way if Mario uses Cape Kirby will reverse to face the stage and can grab the ledge; and, if no Cape is used, Kirby will still land safely onto the stage itself.
Kirby at Advantage
Kirby's advantage is up-close (behind) Mario, while comboing Mario, and while having Mario off-stage.
When up-close, Kirby has his best offensive options available to him. When up-close and behind Mario the threat of being Grabbed is lessened, which is always a good thing for Kirby. At this point Kirby can go for U-tilt for combos, Grab to counter a Shield, SA1&2 for pressure, or even bold Smash Attacks to punish Dodges.
Mario is sort of hard to keep a combo going due to how long he remains in HitStun (he seems to be able to react a little more quickly after getting hit than other characters). Combine this with his fast N-air and he has the opportunity to take Kirby by surprise while being juggled. Kirby should make sure to keep this in mind and temper his offense with this knowledge; keep combos safe so as not to 'fish' for hits, and use Shield to punish any N-airs thrown out blindly.
Mario isn't very good off-stage due to his limited recovery options, which works out just fine for Kirby. Gimping Mario is a little harder than it would seem though since Mario's Coin Punch (Up Special) seems to beat out Kirby's offense more often than not (probably due to the invincibility frames and overhead hitboxes). Because of this, Kirby should aim to hit Mario on his Jump rather than on his use of Up Special. This is fairly difficult due to Kirby's slow air speed, but it's not impossible. The reward his is that when successful, Mario is pretty much unable to recover and loses his stock.
Copy Ability
In general, don't specifically go out of your way to Copy Mario. Inhale, however, can be used as a good aerial option when you expect Mario to sit in his Shield. If you happen to Inale Mario, go ahead and Copy. Having Fireballs is not exceptionally good, but it is still useful - plus it helps to not be completely helpless when at a far distance. Just mind Mario's Cape and work your Fireballs around his and you'll find them a good tool to use. This is especially true when recovering back to the stage from up high or for tossing out at Mario to make his recovery that much more difficult.
I don't know too much about Yoshi. However, I have gone up against a few good Mario's in the past with Kirby and have had very good success (most notable victory being vs Nyani) - plus, Mario is one of my secondaries. I think it's a good matchup for Kirby, but not a great one.
Pros
Kirby is a character chock full of neat little surprises, and while I find that Mario players are very good at covering a variety of options, if Kirby can stay on top of those, then Mario will struggle. Kirby has to play very patiently and poke a lot, and then go in and surprise the Mario player. Now, Kirby has to be careful about how he does this, since Mario does have the tools to counter most of Kirby's options. While this isn't necessarily a good thing, Kirby can mix it up and force the Mario player to make a mistake.
The only times that it's an issue for the Kirby player are when Mario is diagonally above Kirby on a platform. Kirby might get some trouble with the fireballs in this scenario. Aside from that, the scenario does vary, but Kirby has enough options to trip up a Mario player. For example...
~If Mario is in front of Kirby, Kirby can short hop Forward Air or Back Air, and during the move's animation have Kirby move back. Mario cannot punish this approach from Kirby unless the Kirby player gets too predictable. You can also Hup Cancel to trick the Mario player, but this is risky, so be careful.
~If Mario is behind Kirby, then Kirby can Back Air, turn around grab, Up Tilt, Down Air, Neutral Air, and a variety of other silly moves. You'll have to do silly things when playing Kirby in a matchup like this, namely to stay unpredictable, so try mixing it up when Mario is behind you and you want to get away or lay on pressure.
~If Mario is above Kirby and NOT on a platform, Up Airs and Up Tilts are recommended. Be wary of the Tornado, as it tends to beat out Kirby's options up close. For maximum fun, try dashing to Mario's side and then Jump -> Inhale. It's weird, but it could catch Mario off guard.
~If Mario is above Kirby and IS on a platform, shark. Be VERY VERY careful of the Forward Air if you're on a stage like Delfino and you have no ground below you. Aside from that, Up Airs and such rack up damage fast.
~If Mario is offstage, then... gimp? I know it sounds very obvious, but it must be said that Kirby can take stocks from Mario as early as 30% with a good gimp. Back Air, Down Air, and Neutral Air are your best friends. You can also use Stone if Mario has already used Up Special, or if you think you can read your opponent right with the air dodge. Mix it up - Kirby's got a lot of options!
I know I'm throwing out some strange sounding options, but believe me, part of the fun of playing Kirby is being unpredictable and outright silly sometimes. Especially in this matchup, warm your opponent up to pokes, Down Tilts from a decent distance, some crouching to avoid attacks. Then when you think they're in a certain mindset, destroy them with options that completely go against that mindset. Maybe "destroy" is bad word choice, though.
FLUDD is weird, since it could either hinder or help Kirby. To help Kirby, well, FLUDD has a tendency to send opponents up at certain angles. And when recovering, above Mario is definitely where you want to be. You can Jump and Air Dodge at the same time to avoid Mario's attacks and avoid that nasty landing lag. When above Mario in the air, definitely try to get away from him - his combos are no joke.
To K.O. Mario, Kirby has options aside from the reliable gimp. Back Air, while it might get a bit stale, is always a solid option. It's fast, the range is acceptable, and can K.O. at decent percentages, especially when Kirby is in rage mode. Kirby's Up Smash is a good one too, albeit unsafe. It's silly, but not the kind of silly that usually works - but if you think it'll work, go for it. Forward Smash, while also a bit unsafe, is a bit better. At lower percentages (Kirby), Kirby can throw out Forward Smashes and not be K.O.'d for it, which is nice. You can get grabbed, but there's a risk/reward factor involved. To finish it off, when in rage mode, Up Throw is a great K.O. option, especially when platforms are involved.
And lastly, while it should be noted that Back Throw -> Back Air does not work, Kirby does get some good Forward Throw shenanigans on Mario. I believe Forward Throw -> Forward Air works.
Basically, what Kirby wants to do to win is to stay as unpredictable as possible. Mix up your play style to ensure that Mario players won't be able to properly use all of their tools as efficiently as they otherwise could. Be safe and be patient. And go for the gimp!
Cons
Mario racks up damage fast. Up Air combos, for example, work very well on Kirby, due to his floaty status. A common Mario combo that I see when I play the matchup is Down Throw -> Up Air, and while I can mostly escape that with good DI and Jump -> Air Dodge, I'm not always right and sometimes get hit by two Up Airs from Mario. At higher percentages, Mario can even go for Down Throw -> Up Special for a powerful combo with good knockback.
Kirby is light, and getting damage racked up that quickly is NOT fun. Sadly, Mario has the K.O. options to back it up. Forward Smash is, in my opinion, the scariest. If Kirby makes a mistake from a certain range, notably, you know, rolling, Mario throws out a Forward Smash and a stock is gone. Poor Kirby. Other good K.O. options from Mario are Down Smash, Back Air (namely for gimps, of all things), and Forward Air. Be wary of these, especially when Mario is in rage mode.
As stated earlier, FLUDD is weird in how it both helps and hinders Kirby. It hinders Kirby whenever Kirby decides to Final Cutter. Kirby better position himself extraordinarily well below the stage if he's going to Final Cutter, because once that FLUDD comes in contact with that Cutter Blade, Kirby's a goner. Similarly, Cape also messes this up, although Cape also hurts Kirby's approaches.
On the topic of approaching, Cape does mess up Kirby's approaches, and while it can be a bummer, it's not the worst. By changing pace, Kirby can get around Cape's turn around properties just fine. It is something to be wary of, though, so watch out!
Mario also excels diagonally above Kirby. Aside from the obvious Fireball stuff, he has the perfect trajectory to go for a Forward Air. When in this scenario, just try your best to avoid what Mario's got and get back into an advantageous or even neutral position. It's surprisingly tough offstage, believe it or not, but if Kirby is onstage, then some good shielding should save Kirby from most threats. When offstage, just do your best to not get too predictable with your jumps, pokes, attacks, Final Cutter, and air dodging.
Basically, if Mario can get into a good position and stop Kirby from being unpredictable, he can get a good pace going. Watch out for scary stuff like Forward Air. Be brave and fight back! Not too offensively, though. Mario can punish good with grabs. Scary.
Copy Ability What does Kirby copy?
Fireball. What is Fireball?
Fireball is a small, round projectile that travels in a diagonal-down motion. Once it hits the ground, it bounces and travels a short distance. In this matchup, is Fireball good for Mario?
Yes. Fireball helps stop Kirby when Mario is above. It also counts as a solid keep away option when Kirby is on the ground too much. Bonus points if the Mario player is using Fire Mario. In this matchup, is Fireball good for Kirby?
YES, YES, YES. My opinion might be unpopular, but I adore having Fireball in this matchup. Having multiple jumps makes having Fireball outstanding. You can get three fireballs out during one trip in the air. If you Jump -> Fireball -> Jump Twice -> Fireball -> Jump -> Fireball, Mario likely won't be able to fully counter the fireball. Kirby might not be in the best position, but it's nigh guaranteed to be better than the position he was in earlier. Be wary of Cape, though. How do I get Fireball?
It's weird, but if you're hanging on the ledge and Mario is waiting to attack, press down on Analog to let go of the ledge, jump, and Inhale - TAP THE SPECIAL BUTTON. Hold it too long and Mario can easily Forward Air. Throwing it out at random is a bad option, and doing this frequently and at higher percentages is also a bad idea. You won't get Fireball often, but it's great to have. What would you rate it [Kirby's Fireball] overall?
7/10. It's tremendous, but Inhale is hard to land, plus Mario can punish you dearly for it, especially offstage. Try to get it, but don't be predictable about it.
Stage Picks
~Battlefield: Good for Mario, not bad for Kirby. Platform positioning is good for Mario, but Kirby can shark under the platforms. Can also get some solid gimps since nothing about this stage helps Mario's recovery.
~Final Destination: Personally, I think Kirby is very bad on Final Destination, so I cannot talk about this stage without bias. Sorry.
~Smashville: Good for Mario, good for Kirby. I believe Smashville is good for everybody, so I can't discuss without bias. Here, at least, Mario can safely zone and Kirby can safely avoid the zoning. Both depend on positioning.
~Delfino Plaza: Okay for Mario, terrific for Kirby. Kirby gets so many options on this stage, and if you can get the Mario player to land in the water, you get a free Stone. Sharking is easy. Just be careful of Forward Air. On the walk-off segments, be wary of his throws.
~Halberd: Good for Mario, good for Kirby. Both have their advantages depending on which segment of the Halberd you're on.
~Town & City: Good for Mario, good for Kirby. Platform location means everything, but Kirby can get some good, early Up Throw K.O.s depending on the height of the middle platform.
~Lylat Cruise: I've never played a Mario on this stage, but I'm assuming it's bad for Mario and good for Kirby.
~Castle Siege: Again, no experience vs Mario, but I'll assume good for Mario and okay for Kirby.
~Duck Hunt: I tend to think similarly to Final D with this one, at least when playing Kirby. So I dislike it.
Additional Notes
Really, if I had to tl;dr the above essay, I'd just say to play unpredictably and keep Mario on his toes. It's doable, but you have to constantly think flexibly. You can do it!
Overall Score
I have to say, in my opinion, it's 60:40 (Slight Advantage) for Kirby. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong, but I do firmly believe that Kirby wins this match.
1) Hitting the opponent with Kirby's D-air is a strong option because it can lead into many different options, even into KO options. Getting the D-air can be challenging, though. Aerial Attacks, as I've stated before, are already telegraphed: you're in the air, your options become more transparent. On top of that, D-air has a ridiculous amount of start-up (hits on frame 18) which doesn't just telegraph your attack but can outright let your opponent get his hit in first. Because of this, D-air usually can't just be thrown out at whim for Kirby to reap the benefits. It becomes more situational and difficult to land.
With this in mind other Aerial Attacks can be looked at for a quicker approach option. B-air hits on frame 6 and all other aerials, aside from D-air, hit on frame 10. The drawback to using B-air (aside from awkwardly approaching while facing backward) is its lack of combo/follow-up potential. The drawback to using N-air is its short-range, and the drawback to using F-air is its inability to auto-cancel out of a Short Hop (and it's 13 frames of landing lag as opposed to 10 for N-air, 12 for U-air and option to Auto-Cancel B-air from Short Hop). Also, 10 frames of start-up is already a little slow when looking for 'fast' aerial approaches especially considering D-air is just 8 more frames. Considering all this, Kirby's aerial option is mostly to not attack but instead wait/bait and then move in with the appropriate attack when the opportunity presents itself.
2) Approaching on the ground is viable, but you have to deal with possible Fireballs along the way. Also, Kirby's ground approach is weak considering he wants to hit with U-tilt which hits behind/above him. The solution to this is a 'Pivot' into a U-tilt, which requires near-perfect execution along with near-perfect timing and spacing - monumental effort for a simple approach.
F-tilt and D-tilt work as good substitutes for such an approach, but they work best as 'pokes' instead of strong combo leads. Mixing things up into an approach with a Grab is simple and effective, but Kirby's combo potential with a Grab is practically non-existent on Mario.
Mario isn't very good off-stage due to his limited recovery options, which works out just fine for Kirby. Gimping Mario is a little harder than it would seem though since Mario's Coin Punch (Up Special) seems to beat out Kirby's offense more often than not (probably due to the invincibility frames and overhead hitboxes). Because of this, Kirby should aim to hit Mario on his Jump rather than on his use of Up Special. This is fairly difficult due to Kirby's slow air speed, but it's not impossible. The reward his is that when successful, Mario is pretty much unable to recover and loses his stock.
I must completely agree here. Kirby's Dair can be one of his better approach options. But I seem to have a huge problem with landing it on Mario players and other characters because it telegraphs your intent so much. Personally I have found that the best way to approach a Mario is through Kirby's fair or grab. They're probably his safest approaches with the addition of his dair. But hey, that's just my 2 cents.
I tentatively put Mario as 40:60 and Yoshi as 35:65.
Mario has some definite advantages over Kirby (superior frame data on jab, smashes, and aerials, disjoint on fsmash, anti-approach option with UpB, easy combos, a projectile, and most of all, great aerial mobility) but none of his advantages are too overwhelming.
I'm putting Yoshi as 35:65, though I feel it could be 30:70. It's that bad. I don't know if any of us have managed to play the Yoshis that were offering here, but I have played enough Yoshis that know how to camp eggs and it's just a massive advantage because of his mobility. If done correctly, it feels like circle camping, which is what some stages are banned for, but Yoshi can do it on essentially any stage. I still think this may be Kirby's worst matchup.
Anyway, I think it's time we get started on Pikachu. This thread has been going pretty slowly no matter what, so I think doing just 1 matchup at a time is fine for right now.
Pikachu Week!
Pros:
Cons:
Copy Ability:
Stage Picks:
Additional Notes:
Overall Score:
Have at it! I think Kirby struggles in this matchup, at least a little bit.
Have played this MU quite a bit in friendlies and once or twice in tournament. Pikachu is basically going to try to wall you out if he knows his stuff here. Outranging Kirby's aerials is a big deal for Pikachu, who normally doesn't outrange anyone, and Kirby has a hard time getting in against camping in general anyway. F-air and up-air are disjointed and autocancel, so after using one or the other he'll probably turn/fall into a position to d-tilt you or pivot f-smash you. If he uses pivot up-smash, do not try to run in and grab him unless he clearly misspaced it. That's a trap, because Pikachu's f-smash doesn't have that much lag. Don't just use multiple jumps to stay above him in the air, either, because Thunder comes out fast and he has no problem being below you. If you Stone and release it near the ground or ledge there's enough lag for him to run up and up-smash due to his run speed, so you probably want to release it much higher.
I'm most scared when a Kirby powershields my Tjolts and gets in on me on the ground, because Kirby's combos are kinda scary since Pikachu is light, so you should play a strong ground game here. Don't be afraid to challenge Pikachu's aerials with your own, but you won't be getting in with an aerial. You'll likely get in with a dash attack to punish or a d-tilt or a grab. If Pikachu feels threatened he'll Quick Attack to the other side of the stage and get to safety, so you should apply pressure in moderation. If all you're doing is pressuring, then all that pressure is going to make Pikachu nervous and he's going to get out of there like a scared mouse running from a cat. You should apply some pressure and then go for the throat. You have to time your attack to be a surprise, so that Pikachu doesn't expect it and just QA away.
For recovery, he might be scared to Thunder you because of d-air or Stone, so you can probably throw out aerials to catch him if he comes toward you with an aerial.
I haven't really played much in SSB4 against Pikachu. It seems like it would be very similar to the Brawl match-up since neither Pika nor Kirby have changed drastically since then. If anything, the match-up seems like it would be a little easier for Kirby now that he has a better combo game and Pikachu's Thunder got nerfed.
If this is the case, Pikachu shouldn't be worse than a 50:50. Pikachu's speed has always been a problem for Kirby, but what has always made the match-up do-able is how Pikachu just doesn't flat out beat Kirby's range like so many other characters do.
I would say Kirby is going to use his Shield a lot in this match-up, if only to Perfect Shield the Thunderjolts coming his way. As such, be on the look out for Pikachu's dash-in-and-grab strat once he starts seeing the Shield. I don't know what Pikachu can do out of a Grab this time around, but he had F-throw into U-smash in Brawl so he probably has something out of one of his Grabs. If so, get ready to avoid his Grabs... if not, then rejoice and use Shield more.
Due to Pikachu's speed he's going to have an easier time avoiding Kirby's more powerful KO options while at the same time he will have more opportunities to get a KO attack in (Dashing Up-Smash). In general, a good Kirby player should be able to play defensively enough to see something like that coming which means a good Pikachu player will simply wait until Kirby leaves himself open for the attack. When Kirby's at a KOable percent, try your best not to use anything that isn't as safe as you can get away with - you don't even want to be hit by Pikachu's not-so-strong KO options until you've taken his stock first.
The off-stage game is sad for Kirby. Pika is fast enough and safe enough with his stage-recovery that Kirby isn't likely to get much out of knocking Pikachu off unless it's a flat-out KO. If Pikachu uses Skull Bash for the horizontal return there's enough downtime on the move that maybe Kirby can do something about it. But for the most part, just stay near the edge and either punish a Pikachu who tries to land on-stage or look for opportunities against a Pikachu who is hanging on the ledge and trying to find a way back on-stage.
For the most part, Kirby will have to play defensive the whole game while watching to see if/when Pikachu leaves himself open. If you can read/predict/react well enough to a Quick Attack, you can hit Pikachu as he comes toward you (Smash Attacks actually work well here), but again, only do this when you are able to take the risk.
Copy is useful. It's doubtful that you'll get many Copy opportunities, but considering Pikachu's recovery options and how bad Kirbycide is, I would generally suggest getting a Pikachu Hat if you ever land an Inhale. Thunderjolt isn't great in the match-up, but it's better than nothing.
Learn your Out-of-Shield options and when to use each one. Jumping out of your Shield into an Aerial Attack is going to be most of Kirby's counter-attack options aside from Grabbing out of Shield.
One thing that I think is interesting about Pikachu is that every time I play one, I feel like he beats the crap out of me for the longest time, with his better neutral game and multihit combos, but it seems like once Kirby manages to get in, he does as much damage, or more. It's hard to say who has the better KO power, it seems pretty even. Both have trouble edgeguarding each other. Kirby with Pikachu's power is of course really good, because it's a strong projectile. I'd say the matchup is evenish, but Pikachu has more tools to overwhelm Kirby.
I actually play Pikachu second to Kirby, in my opinion Kirby and Pikachu are pretty even, but if I were to really flesh it out, Pikachu's UpSmash is actually the biggest threat to Kirby, since it's insanely fast. If Dair is shielded Usmash will come out as fast as shield grabbing, as well as Dsmash. He also outmatches Kirby in stage control and mobilty thanks to quick attack and thunder jolt, one time while playing a Pikachu he actually completely ran away from my Kirby by spamming quick attack. He also has an air game, though not as good as Kirby's, but definitely still faster.
The most complicated part in playing (as) Pikachu is dealing with the amount of endlag in all of his moves. Dash Attack and grab are punishable, his approaching game would have been bad if it weren't for thunderjolt. Unlike Kirby, Pikachu has a lot more end lag on landing while performing an attack, especially on Dair. So it's sorta contradictory, Kirby has start up lag, Pikachu has end lag.
The most obvious weakness Pikachu has is that for exchange for speed and fast moves, his KO power is very weak, and that he's very light, which Kirby can take advantage of with a kick in the face. His best KO moves are UpSmash and ForwardSmash, and because of that Usmash (and maybe thunder) Kirby will have to play it on ground. Getting a copy ability would actually help a lot for stage control. One advantage that I can think of for Kirby is that Pikachu has a tough time landing, since all of moves have end lag, Skullbash would be his best bet for escaping terror from below.
The strings I use while playing Pikachu are usually Fthrow to Usmash, Utilt juggling, Dthrow to Fair, infamously Uthrow to thunder, Uthrow to Uair juggling to Bair, Dash Attack to Uair, all are pretty short, most of which Kirby can escape from, as well as Dtilt mashing.
I feel like Pikachu beats Kirby in this matchup. Pikachu has a lot of tools and that's what make him a top tier character. Grab combos, a projectile, fast usmash, disjointed fsmash, amazing edge game, and just has a lot mobility. His flaw that come with this is only his lack of range. Kirby doesn't have as many tools as Pikachu and just kind of falls flat on paper. Kirby's gimmicks just don't work on Pikachu, ducking and having a good edge game isn't enough. I can't say much because I haven't played a competent enough Pikachu, but just thinking about it makes it seem like it is in Pika's favor.
Kirby can have an at best good time against Pikachu, but just needs to be well aware of his KO options, like up-throw -> Thunder, or an out-of-shield up-smash... Actually, is out-of-shield up-smash a really common thing for Pikachu? I only fought one player doing that and it is pretty effective. Also, Kirby can copy Pikachu's Thunder Jolts, as well.
The Pikachu match-up is starting to sound pretty bad for Kirby. There's a good Pikachu player in my area, but I haven't had the chance to play him yet so I'm still a little reserved in making a decision on this match-up.
I feel like Pikachu beats Kirby in this matchup. Pikachu has a lot of tools and that's what make him a top tier character. Grab combos, a projectile, fast usmash, disjointed fsmash, amazing edge game, and just has a lot mobility. His flaw that come with this is only his lack of range. Kirby doesn't have as many tools as Pikachu and just kind of falls flat on paper. Kirby's gimmicks just don't work on Pikachu, ducking and having a good edge game isn't enough. I can't say much because I haven't played a competent enough Pikachu, but just thinking about it makes it seem like it is in Pika's favor.
That because he is. Pikachu is not Campy Yoshi bad but still difficult to fight. You cannot juggle Pika as well and I feel his aerials beat ours. Quick Attack doesn't not make this matchup any easier. At least with Greninja, you can follow the directional. Pikachu moves too fast to punish and it has short cooldown. What is this?
I only fought one good Pikachu and he was a Japanese player on the 3ds. It was early launch week too so I was still trying to understand Kirby. So I am going to remain silent for the matchup (not that anyone cares).
I didn't know that Pikachu has long ending aerial lag. That will be good to know and abuse. Meaning more Utilt.
EDIT: I just noticed it is a weekly discussion about Pikachu, I apologize. Just ignore this reply
What is everyone's opinion on Fox. I find him hard to deal with sometimes. His Up-smash and D-throw to Up-air seem to be very deadly because of Kirby's light weight. His dash attack seems difficult to punish but impossible. Also Fox's mobility is just incredibly fast.
I think staying in the air as Kirby is the worst thing he can do. Fox can jump up and initiate an aerial very quickly with his Up-air being an easy way to K.O. Kirby. It is even worse online since your air dodge input may not register before his attack hits.
I know I sound negative. I think Kirby has some pros in the match up. For one, Kirby can gimp Fox fairly easily with his D-air or stage spike him with a B-air if he is below the ledge. Also Fox seems to have difficultly getting combos on Kirby with proper DI.
I just thought I would just share some of my thoughts.
We will get to Fox match sometime down the road but right now we are talking about Pikachu and later Lucario.
But since you are new here, we will let that side.
Side detail about Fox for you are:
Utilts (you can get Fox to 40% with just Utilts), you can challenge Side B with Any any aerial really, and Jump to avoid grab -> Aerial Frame Trap.
Just a few notes about Pikachu:
- Thunder Jolt can ruin Kirby if he feels he Final Cutters to the ledge.
- While Pikachu suffers a bit of landing lag from his b-air, his hurtbox shrinks as low, if not, lower than Kirby's crouch. So a couple of characters can't punish with a move or even a grab that are low enough to connect. I'm not sure if Kirby's grab is low enough to connect, though.
- While Pikachu is spamming Thunder Jolts onto the ground, Kirby can destroy them with all of his aerials. So maybe approaching Pikachu while eliminating the projectiles with f-air or b-air should be OK, at best. MAYBE. I'll probably sound crazy for the time being until someone tests this out against a good Pikachu main. I know I can't. :/
My friend plays Pikachu, but since I haven't been able to face him with a proper controller (severe input delay to the point where I can't use Smash attacks consistently) I can't say much on the matchup. But it does seem pretty iffy for Kirby. I wouldn't say... bad, but certainly not good. In the 40:60 area. The big problem is that Pikachu can play both keep away and offensively pretty well against Kirby. The big thing saving Kirby in this one is Pikachu's range, and even then some of Pikachu's moves have better range than most of Kirby's. Kirby does survive long in this matchup, though, as people have mentioned already. It's tough, but not the worst.
I know I'm late, but after having actually experimented with Yoshi, the matchup is about as bad as everyone is making it out to be.
Pikachu: Brawl Match-up says 45:55 and I'm inclined to think not too much has changed in Smash 4. They are both quite evenly matched but Pika has a few tools that give him the edge (Thunderjolt, actually useable specials, etc).
Is Kirby vs. Pikachu oldest and biggest smash bros. "rivalry"? They are so evenly matched in every single game...
I suggest we move on to Lucario now though. I don't know much about him at all otherwise I would start it off.
If Melee didn't exist, then I'd say Kirby vs Pika is almost always even and it'd be great. Big Smash 64 fan, myself, so having that game's best characters always be even would be hilarious.
If we're doing Lucario next, then I think the biggest question is how do we K.O. Luke as early as possible? Rage and aura are a scary combination.
Kirby and Pika by may be Flat out even or slightly in Kirby's favor if anything.
There's one thing pika he mains will exploit with Kirby, his approach.
They will use lots of thunder jolts to hold you back. In brawl, I Can actually almost always power shield the CPUS attack.
If Kirby can get in, Pikachu will have a bit of a hard time because Kirbys combo game is still decent and Kirby is overall stronger then Pikachu. Pikachu, in some areas, is faster.
I'll continue this later gotta go to gym.
Let's take a look at their moveset.
Kirby's tilts are overall faster and have slightly more range(At least the Ftilt for sure)
As for Smashes, Kirbys are stronger Overall and have slightly more range(F smash and D smash idk about U smash.)
Pika, his are faster however, but have more ending lag to them and have to be sweet spotted closely to actually send the opponent far.
As for the Ariel game, Kirby has a lower air speed then Pikachu, but also has a slower falling speed.
As for KO power, Kirby once again has the advantage here, His D-air Bair Fair and Nair can all be offstage kill moves at higher percents(If I am wrong about a few things, Keep in mind I don't encounter Pikachu alot or know his moveset completely.)
Kirby is better at edge guarding due to his multiple jumps and if he has Pikachus projectile, will have an even easier time.
Pikachu on the other hand, has faster Ariels and 3 of them are multi-hitting attacks, which are harder then in other smash games to SDI out of.
Pikachu's edge guarding game can get predictable especially when he jumps of the stage. His thunder is not that hard to avoid because of your multiple jumps and it just puts him in a worse situation if you can avoid it correctly.
Pikachus Bair can be problematic as it can stage spike and has very long duration.
As for Grab Game, Kirbys jab, if I am correct is very slightly faster then Pikachus, and his grab range is longer.
As for the throws. Once again, Kirby has the KO part but he has next to no combos in his throws(compared to brawl) Pikachu has a few set-ups, but on Kirby they won't always work, The Up throw can be DI'd to get away from the thunder and I think the thunders power may have been weakened, but like I said, I don't know all too much about Pikachu.
Other things to note is that Pikachu and Kirby, IMO, rack up damage about evenly, but Pikachu does it much faster overall then Kirby,
I have come across one very good Pika player, named SkyBunny.
She was very good at using her thunder jolts to make a wall and make it tough t approach her.
Generally at first I was winning more matches, but then she started catching on to my gameplay and did better.
I play an aggressive Kirby but I do space with some moves
I hope this doesn't get much hate, This is from what I can recall about Pikachu if I got some things wrong, just let me know nice and easy and not say something like....Wow You know nothing about Pikachu
Bringing this back to attention because we really should move on. To at least start this, I ask again, what are the best ways to K.O. Lucario before rage and aura become super scary?
Bringing this back to attention because we really should move on. To at least start this, I ask again, what are the best ways to K.O. Lucario before rage and aura become super scary?
Just going to be honest here. There is probably no way to kill Lucario before rage and aura becomes super scary except for a hard read smash attack. Our kill throws, uthrow and bthrow, rely on the opponent being high percent (130ish for bthrow close to ledge and 170ish for off the top no platform) so it's already too late by then. This is the same problem practically every character though has against Lucario though and is the reason why people think aura is dumb. Lucario is hardly going to die before 90% because of his ridiculous recovery. You could try to dair -> footstool -> dair -> footstool him, but other than that it's about it.
You shouldn't think of the matchup as killing him before aura + rage gets ridiculous though. You should play the matchup looking at his moveset and when/what aura does to it. Max aura is 190% and max rage is 150%. If you haven't killed him off by then, you deserve to lose.
I agree with Wootsnorlax. You need either a hard read with Smash/Hammer or chase him offstage and finish it with bair/fair. If you read that Lucario is going to Up B towards ledge, 1) charge your hammer, 2) anticipate the direction and swing right when he within range.
Or try something easier like Ledge Thump -> Bair -> Charge hammer/Smash and hit him when he returns to the ledge.
I guess since customs are O-K. Leaping Inhale can beat it.
Not sure if this is the place to post this, but can we talk about the Villager matchup? I went to a tourney last week feeling pretty confident in my Kirby, and won my first match. Then I lost to two Villagers in a row. I just don't know how I'm supposed to get in with him spamming Gyroid and fair. Both of the sets went to game three, but it was just overall a very stressful matchup. Any tips?
Not sure if this is the place to post this, but can we talk about the Villager matchup? I went to a tourney last week feeling pretty confident in my Kirby, and won my first match. Then I lost to two Villagers in a row. I just don't know how I'm supposed to get in with him spamming Gyroid and fair. Both of the sets went to game three, but it was just overall a very stressful matchup. Any tips?
So true, and thats not bad enough considering how easy kirby is killed and how many strong attacks dedede has just gives Kirby a very tough time.....
If anything, I may even say this is one of the very few, if any, character that actually counters Kirby
Personally I think it's pretty even. Taking his copy power makes a lot of his moves kind of a bad idea. He camps you out pretty hard but Kirby's not bad at getting through walls of projectiles, and combos him decently enough when he gets in. Have to watch out for his frame 3 Nair combo breaker though. It's kinda possible for Kirby to gimp Villager with multiple Dairs. Kill power/reliability seems a bit in Kirby's favor maybe?
Mario Match-Up 
