The True Arena - Kirby MU Discussion "Weeks" 10/11: Ness, Meta Knight, Lucario and Lucas

[Togii]

Zero Suit Samus

Pros

We can duck under almost all of her attacks
Kirby has much more reliable on-stage kill options
Semi-gimpable recovery if the ZSS is predictable

Cons

ZSS is much faster than Kirby
Kirby's fall speed makes it difficult to land vs ZSS

Copy Ability

It's pretty good. You can use it to block ZSS's own shots, as they'll cancel each other out no matter the charge difference between them. You can also combo it into an up air/Upper Cutter at later percents for damage or a kill.

Custom Moves

Jumping Inhale, because Ice Breath sucks in this matchup and you'll never catch her with Inhale.
Hammer Bash - if you're quick, you can land this after you land a Paralyzer shot, or if she whiffs her Flip Jump kick. Giant Hammer is also good, as ZSS's grab has ridiculous lag if it whiffs.
Upper Cutter - Final Cutter sucks, and Wave Cutter is semi-useless agaist ZSS
Grounding Stone - synergizes with paralyzer really well; ground them then paralyze them (or vice versa), then follow up with an air combo/Upper Cutter.

Stage Picks

I want to recommend Final Destination, as it pretty much forces ZSS to stay relatively grounded. This is ideal for Kirby has we can duck under almost all of her grounded attacks. Stay away from Delfino Plaza; sharking doesn't work well against ZSS, and majority of the transformations favor her.

Additional Notes

Duck. I played against one of the best ZSS's in AZ and destroyed him because he couldn't grab, dash attack, paralyzer, zair, or nair me. Strategic ducking removes practically all of ZSS's approach options. This entire matchup is pretty much bait and punish. It's not everyone's cup of tea, but you'll most likely win if you play smart.

Also, note to see what the ZSS is doing when you approach from the air. If you can predict what she's going for, you can usually get a punish. If she's going for utilt, you can dair since utilt has a buttload of endlag. If she's going for usmash, you can ff fair or even hammer if you're fast. If she's going for uair... air dodge it. I don't think you can effectively punish a ZSS who can shff uairs, but you can at least avoid it.

Overall Score

70:30

This is, imo, one of Kirby's best matchups in the entire game, and I would go so far as to say that Kirby is one of ZSS's worst.

 

[Underhill]

Zero Suit Samus

Pros

We can duck under almost all of her attacks
Kirby has much more reliable on-stage kill options
Semi-gimpable recovery if the ZSS is predictable

Cons

ZSS is much faster than Kirby
Kirby's fall speed makes it difficult to land vs ZSS

Copy Ability

It's pretty good. You can use it to block ZSS's own shots, as they'll cancel each other out no matter the charge difference between them. You can also combo it into an up air/Upper Cutter at later percents for damage or a kill.

Custom Moves

Jumping Inhale, because Ice Breath sucks in this matchup and you'll never catch her with Inhale.
Hammer Bash - if you're quick, you can land this after you land a Paralyzer shot, or if she whiffs her Flip Jump kick. Giant Hammer is also good, as ZSS's grab has ridiculous lag if it whiffs.
Upper Cutter - Final Cutter sucks, and Wave Cutter is semi-useless agaist ZSS
Grounding Stone - synergizes with paralyzer really well; ground them then paralyze them (or vice versa), then follow up with an air combo/Upper Cutter.

Stage Picks

I want to recommend Final Destination, as it pretty much forces ZSS to stay relatively grounded. This is ideal for Kirby has we can duck under almost all of her grounded attacks. Stay away from Delfino Plaza; sharking doesn't work well against ZSS, and majority of the transformations favor her.

Additional Notes

Duck. I played against one of the best ZSS's in AZ and destroyed him because he couldn't grab, dash attack, paralyzer, zair, or nair me. Strategic ducking removes practically all of ZSS's approach options. This entire matchup is pretty much bait and punish. It's not everyone's cup of tea, but you'll most likely win if you play smart.

Also, note to see what the ZSS is doing when you approach from the air. If you can predict what she's going for, you can usually get a punish. If she's going for utilt, you can dair since utilt has a buttload of endlag. If she's going for usmash, you can ff fair or even hammer if you're fast. If she's going for uair... air dodge it. I don't think you can effectively punish a ZSS who can shff uairs, but you can at least avoid it.

Overall Score

75:25

This is, imo, one of Kirby's best matchups in the entire game, and I would go so far as to say that Kirby is one of ZSS's worst.

Wow, he's more of a serious problem for her than I thought.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Zero Suit Samus

Pros

We can duck under almost all of her attacks
Kirby has much more reliable on-stage kill options
Semi-gimpable recovery if the ZSS is predictable

Cons

ZSS is much faster than Kirby
Kirby's fall speed makes it difficult to land vs ZSS

Copy Ability

It's pretty good. You can use it to block ZSS's own shots, as they'll cancel each other out no matter the charge difference between them. You can also combo it into an up air/Upper Cutter at later percents for damage or a kill.

Custom Moves

Jumping Inhale, because Ice Breath sucks in this matchup and you'll never catch her with Inhale.
Hammer Bash - if you're quick, you can land this after you land a Paralyzer shot, or if she whiffs her Flip Jump kick. Giant Hammer is also good, as ZSS's grab has ridiculous lag if it whiffs.
Upper Cutter - Final Cutter sucks, and Wave Cutter is semi-useless agaist ZSS
Grounding Stone - synergizes with paralyzer really well; ground them then paralyze them (or vice versa), then follow up with an air combo/Upper Cutter.

Stage Picks

I want to recommend Final Destination, as it pretty much forces ZSS to stay relatively grounded. This is ideal for Kirby has we can duck under almost all of her grounded attacks. Stay away from Delfino Plaza; sharking doesn't work well against ZSS, and majority of the transformations favor her.

Additional Notes

Duck. I played against one of the best ZSS's in AZ and destroyed him because he couldn't grab, dash attack, paralyzer, zair, or nair me. Strategic ducking removes practically all of ZSS's approach options. This entire matchup is pretty much bait and punish. It's not everyone's cup of tea, but you'll most likely win if you play smart.

Also, note to see what the ZSS is doing when you approach from the air. If you can predict what she's going for, you can usually get a punish. If she's going for utilt, you can dair since utilt has a buttload of endlag. If she's going for usmash, you can ff fair or even hammer if you're fast. If she's going for uair... air dodge it. I don't think you can effectively punish a ZSS who can shff uairs, but you can at least avoid it.

Overall Score

75:25

This is, imo, one of Kirby's best matchups in the entire game, and I would go so far as to say that Kirby is one of ZSS's worst.

What was one of the things the ZSS player was doing when you crouched?
One time when I fought one online they mainly tried to hit me with UpB, but obviously it doesn't work well plus Kirby can get out of it, even though I don't know the right way to DI, I do get out of it often

 

[Togii]

What was one of the things the ZSS player was doing when you crouched?

He eventually started to just waited for me to approach and tried to punish, which was hilarious when I approached with dtilt. He tried some unconventional approaches like dair or down-b, but quickly realized they didn't work.

Anyway, ZSS week is now over. I've gotten a lot of requests for a certain character, so here starts

Week 5! Rosalina & Luma and Donkey Kong

Let the discussion begin!

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Can we still vote in the Luigi and ZSS MUs? Not much on those guys.

 

[David Viran]

I'm sorry, I know zss is over but I want to say a few things. First off alot of you seem to overrate crouching and use it as your main justification for a 7-3 MU. I'll list all the moves that matter that hit a crouching kirby: nair (RNG crap with his breathing), dsmash, dtilt, low angled ftilt, side special (He just doesn't have the speed to punish this move), and the tip of grab. All of these moves zss liokes to space with in neutral in just about every MU so don't say she loses all options to crouching please.

Another thing is kirby doesn't have much range compared to zss or mobility so she can actually camp him pretty hard. He is also super light and dies to bair, flip jump, and boost kick very early. BTW watch this video on boost kick and DI.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylVAJur_wVs

 

[Agent Emerald]

I'm sorry, I know zss is over but I want to say a few things. First off alot of you seem to overrate crouching and use it as your main justification for a 7-3 MU...Another thing is kirby doesn't have much range compared to zss or mobility so she can actually camp him pretty hard. He is also super light and dies to bair, flip jump, and boost kick very early.

Glad I'm not the only one who thought we went kinda overboard with ducking in the ZSS Matchup. It gives ZSS approach issues, but you shouldn't let it get to your heads. ZSS' Womanly legs give her some mean aerial options, and just because we can slip through her attacks doesn't mean they won't catch on after a while.

I think it's 40:60 ZSS. We're kinda troubling for her, but she's much more troubling for us.

I'll probably get to DK tommorrow or Thursday.

 

[meda9871]

Time for one matchup I feel has been GREATLY underestimated based on what I hear.
Our mother in the stars,

+Can easily get rid of Luma with B Air due to Luma not being able to shield and grabs no longer having armor
+Her recovery is easy to punish and spike as few RosaLuma players use Launch Star Attack
+With RosaLuma being one of the floatiest characters in the game, they are easy to combo and kill and her hurtbox allows D Air to hit through certain platforms

-Being even more Floaty than RosaLuma, Kirby dies much earlier when compared to other characters
-Luma can interrupt grabs and certain combos, as well as easily take neutral through Luma Warp
-Kirby's low air speed makes it hard for him to land against RosaLuma and easy to hit with U Air

Customs: 3231 or 3233 as Jumping Inhale gives an option to jump right over a Warped Luma and safer gimps for an obvious recovery. Hammer Bash would also be the easiest Hammer to punish Rosa's speed and its ability to slow down Kirby's momentum allows more variety in recovery options. Upper Cutter because another vertical kill move is always good and the other Cutters would either have the projectile taken or be next to no use. Though Grounding Stone would be useful when it is just Rosalina, Luma makes it near impossible to punish. For that reason, I would go with the quicker normal Stone or use Meteor Stone for another option to block her recovery. Most RosaLuma's would use Luma Warp to easiely gain access from across the stage, which should be kept an eye on to get the B Air as well as Shooting Star Bit which can be crouched under. Also note with Up B they choose to plan options for edgeguards and which Down B since some may not change but some may switch to Guardian Luma to use it more as a get-away move since Kirby has next to no projectiles.

Stages: Avoid stages with low ceilings and platforms as it makes it easier for RosaLuma to kill with U Air like Battlefield, Town and City and Halberd. Since RosaLuma would want to sweetspot their recovery, choose a stage like Lylat Cruise to risk the low ceiling but at the same time have low horizontal borders and make it harder for RosaLuma to recover. If possible choose Duck Hunt for the high ceiling and the tree for early kills with Up Throw. Try to avoid Final Destination as platforms give Kirby an option to escape and make it easier for Luma to cover the stage.

Overall: 60:40 (thanks to ) RosaLuma remains infamous in the game mainly because of Luma. While Luma still remains a threat, Kirby can easily eliminate the problem and the same can go vice-versa but Kirby's advantage over Luma gives him the slight advantage in the matchup.

Plan on doing DK soon...

 

[Agent Emerald]

Now it's on like Donkey Kong.

This is another one of those matchups where Kirby really takes over one he can get in. On the ground, we'll have some issues with DK's tilts since they all use his long arms. In the air, His aerials are a lot closer to his body, so we can get in then.

Combo wise, I believe DK is our third best comboing character, behind Fox and Bowser. DK doesn't need to do much comboing before he can get us to kill percent. DK has good kill options in with a good chunk of his moves getting Kirby offscreen at about 90%.

When punishing, dash attack is the easiest to take advantage of. His roll pushes you with him so you'll be able to easily grab him in the middle of it. Be wary of side b and Down b, since the former is Shoeld breaker lite and the later does big shield damage.

Offstage, DK has poor vertical recovery. One well placed dair and its over if dk doesn't have his jump.

Customs wise, Kong cyclone + Jumping inhale = I BELIEVE I CAN FLY. Depending on the suicide ruleset, It ends not so well for either Kirby or DK.

I think it's 50:50. Kirby has all the tools to mess with DK, but DK has enough raw power behind him to make challenging.

 

[Togii]

I'll list all the moves that matter that hit a crouching kirby: nair (RNG crap with his breathing)

Any Kirby worth his salt knows not to just hold crouch due to Kirby's idle crouch animation making his hurtbox larger, so this doesn't really apply. Also, how are you going to approach with any of those moves except maybe Plasma Whip (which Kirby can definitely punish on shield)? The point is that Kirby's duck removes all of ZSS's approach options except the easily punishable ones. I don't think we're overrating crouch at all.

Can we still vote in the Luigi and ZSS MUs? Not much on those guys.

Sure, as long as you post reasoning for your matchup ratio.

I think it's 40:60 ZSS. We're kinda troubling for her, but she's much more troubling for us.

I'm gonna need you to provide more reasoning than that if you want your vote to count on the main post. This goes for anyone that just posts a sentence or two and a matchup ratio. Try to follow the format described in the main post.

 

[David Viran]

Any Kirby worth his salt knows not to just hold crouch due to Kirby's idle crouch animation making his hurtbox larger, so this doesn't really apply. Also, how are you going to approach with any of those moves except maybe Plasma Whip (which Kirby can definitely punish on shield)? The point is that Kirby's duck removes all of ZSS's approach options except the easily punishable ones. I don't think we're overrating crouch at all.



Sure, as long as you post reasoning for your matchup ratio.



I'm gonna need you to provide more reasoning than that if you want your vote to count on the main post. This goes for anyone that just posts a sentence or two and a matchup ratio. Try to follow the format described in the main post.

Yes nair does apply because if kirby just crouches under nair everytime he is susceptible to a empty hops. Kirby cannot punish side special on block. You're also basing this MU entirely around zss's approach options. Why does zss always have to approach? How can kirby even approach?

 

[Togii]

Yes nair does apply because if kirby just crouches under nair everytime he is susceptible to a empty hops. Kirby cannot punish side special on block. You're also basing this MU entirely around zss's approach options. Why does zss always have to approach? How can kirby even approach?

I'm basing it on my own and others' experience in the matchup as well. I've only lost to one ZSS ever as Kirby, and that's because he's just a better player than me and hasn't lost a tournament, except to ZeRo, since the Wii U launch. If I can get consistent results against ZSS players that are at my skill level, and I can explain why and how I'm winning, then I feel my matchup ratio is warranted. I'm not going to argue the intricacies of the matchup since ZSS week is over and I already did so in my earlier posts.

 

[David Viran]

I'm basing it on my own and others' experience in the matchup as well. I've only lost to one ZSS ever as Kirby, and that's because he's just a better player than me and hasn't lost a tournament, except to ZeRo, since the Wii U launch. If I can get consistent results against ZSS players that are at my skill level, and I can explain why and how I'm winning, then I feel my matchup ratio is warranted. I'm not going to argue the intricacies of the matchup since ZSS week is over and I already did so in my earlier posts.

I've played one of if not the best kirby in my region so this is not all theory craft. I'm just saying maybe the zss players you are playing just don't know how to play the MU and that you should think more about a MU before calling it as bad as 75-25.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Honestly the Kirby ZSS MU is in Kirby's favour, but not 75:25. Like yes, he can destroy her approach options, but it isn't THAT bad. A good ZSS could just get the percent difference and run, and there goes Kirby's duck. I would say 60:40, go ahead and add that since I'm gonna explain later, but 75:25? Thats like the ratio for MK's best match-ups. Like jeez, not gonna be mean, but it sounds like youre really basing this off of For Glory.

 

[Togii]

Honestly the Kirby ZSS MU is in Kirby's favour, but not 75:25. Like yes, he can destroy her approach options, but it isn't THAT bad. A good ZSS could just get the percent difference and run, and there goes Kirby's duck. I would say 60:40, go ahead and add that since I'm gonna explain later, but 75:25? Thats like the ratio for MK's best match-ups. Like jeez, not gonna be mean, but it sounds like youre really basing this off of For Glory.

I don't play For Glory, thanks. The main post says that 75:25 is on the low end of "Kirby has a strong advantage", and that's how I feel about the matchup. I was originally going to say 70:30, but I think he has more than a moderate advantage.

 

[Bribery]

I haven't played the MU myself but I don't really see how the ZSS MU could possibly be as bad for her as 70:30 or even 75:25 lol. I'm pretty sure Pikachu is ZSS worst MU and even then it's debatable whether that's a 30:70 MU for ZSS. Unlike Kirby, Pikachu actually has the mobility to keep up with ZSS and can kill her super early with Heavy Skull Bash.

Crouching doesn't really force ZSS to approach. She has the mobility to camp and time out Kirby if she wants, and Kirby doesn't really have an answer to Flip Jump spam. Landing against ZSS is a massive chore for Kirby because her long legs give her tremendous range on her aerials. Using any Stone variants to get back to the stage is just a free grab for ZSS.

50:50 or even 45:55 in favor of ZSS seems more realistic to me. There's no way that Kirby will ever have a 70:30 or 75:25 MU against a character with as much mobility and kill power as ZSS. It's most likely MU inexperience for the ZSS player if you're beating them so easily. Kirby is an uncommon character at a high level and it forces ZSS to adjust her usual game plan, something which some players might not be good at doing.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I don't play For Glory, thanks. The main post says that 75:25 is on the low end of "Kirby has a strong advantage", and that's how I feel about the matchup. I was originally going to say 70:30, but I think he has more than a moderate advantage.

Kirby has a moderate/slight advantage with duck. Wanna know where Kirby gets destroyed by ZSS? In the air. ZSS runs circles around Kirby in the air, and can still u-air string even though Kirby is floaty. 75:25, or even 70:30, is really REALLY big.

 

[meda9871]

He's bigger, faster, and stronger too! He's the first member of the DK Crew! Huh! DK! ! DK! is here! sorry

+DK is one of the biggest characters in the game, giving him a gigantic hurtbox for Kirby to fight against
+With a weak recovery, Kirby can either go for a Meteor Stone, attempt a early footstool or the usual D Air spike to gimp early
+Next to all of Kirby's grab combos are guaranteed on DK

-Kong Cyclone's windbox can make it hard to get a Inhale and generally ruins all of Kirby's Cutters
-DK's hitboxes drastically beat out Kirby's, especially B Air spacing
-Nearly all of DK's grab combos are guaranteed on Kirby

Customs: 3231, 3233, 3331, or 3333, depends on which Hammer or Stone you prefer. Jumping Inhale can allow for some interesting clashes with Kong Cyclone and remains the safest in the matchup due to DK's range. Hammer Bash allows for a quicker punish against DK and Giant Hammer's armor allows Kirby to walk right through a grounded Kong Cyclone. Upper Cutter is the safest Cutter for its ability to punish DK quickly while in the air and the only Cutter that doesn't guarantee death if hit with only the windbox of Kong Cyclone. Grounding Stone's exit lag makes it dangerous to use against the now quicker DK and leave Kirby open in the matchup. To play it safe, I would use normal Stone to punish Cyclone and not worry much about the windbox or Meteor Stone if you are feeling risking and want to punish the recovery. DK, like Kirby, has a great selection of customs with nearly all of them being useful in this matchup. The biggest fears are the obvious windboxes with Storm Punch and Kong Cyclone due to Kirby being sent flying from his light weight. Jumping Headbutt can get DK out of juggles and all the variations of his Side B all have a high chance to break shields. Hot Slap makes it dangerous to approach from the air due the reach of the flame pillars.

Stages: Every stage that is good for Kirby is equally as good for DK, but overall avoid platforms, especially Battlefield's. All stages with low vertical borders should also be off radar like Delfino, Halberd and Town and City for Kong Cyclone would kill at incredibly low percentages. Lylat Cruise could be risky with its low borders all around, but the stage could gimp DK early and the windbox can put Stone in the perfect position. Generally the best stage would either be to go Final Destination or go with Duck Hunt. Duck Hunt's high ceiling and tree force DK to be more careful in the air and the borders are deceptive and go longer than they seem. Final Destination causes DK to lose most of his benefits in the matchup, but I would recommend choosing an Ω instead, preferably The Great Cave Offensive Ω for its larger borders and small size.

Overall: 50:50 As two characters that get gigantic buffs with customs, even without, the game remains an even battle between combos and overall power.

 

[Asdioh]

I kinda don't do MU discussions because a lot of people don't know what they're talking about
If any of the Kirbys here think they could take a single stock off my local ZSS champ, feel free to try. At ABSOLUTE BEST, that matchup is even. Crouching is nice, but her grab can still reach you with certain spacing, and anytime you're not crouching, it's pretty clearly her advantage.

 

[meda9871]

I kinda don't do MU discussions because a lot of people don't know what they're talking about
If any of the Kirbys here think they could take a single stock off my local ZSS champ, feel free to try. At ABSOLUTE BEST, that matchup is even. Crouching is nice, but her grab can still reach you with certain spacing, and anytime you're not crouching, it's pretty clearly her advantage.

I'm sure you know the point of matchups isn't to rank the characters, it's to see who would have more of an advantage if two players were of even skill. I may have been playing the game since it came out, but we both know I wouldn't stand a chance against Nairo or your local ZSS champ. I base my rating off of how I do against my team partner when we practice and it's pretty much the same with Togii. Everyone has their own opinion and that's why we have some ratings that are 70:30 and others 40:60.

 

[Asdioh]

Yeah but it's wrong! 70:30-75:25 matchups are extremely rare, or even nonexistant in this game, let alone against a top tier character. ZSS is one of the characters winning tournaments for a reason. If you say "you can crouch her moves" like that's going to somehow shut down a good ZSS, then that's just matchup inexperience speaking. Crouch certainly helps, but Kirby's other disadvantages (slower frame data, lower mobility, lower general KO power, less disjoints) ensure that it's not that easy.

What was one of the things the ZSS player was doing when you crouched?
One time when I fought one online they mainly tried to hit me with UpB, but obviously it doesn't work well plus Kirby can get out of it, even though I don't know the right way to DI, I do get out of it often

Here is a useful video on how to DI Boost Kick!

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Does she really KO us better then we kill her? that part idk if I can believe.
Let see....she does have some set ups for her KO moves right? slightly better then we do i could assume?
UpB, Fsmash, Dsmash to whatever.......I dont fight many online so I cant remember what I generally die too, what other kill moves does she have(mostly speaking about her ariels)
Also, idk any of her customs, but are our customs better then hers?
Considering were one of the few characters whos customs nearly all have use and greatly improve our character.

 

[meda9871]

Yeah but it's wrong! 70:30-75:25 matchups are extremely rare, or even nonexistant in this game, let alone against a top tier character. ZSS is one of the characters winning tournaments for a reason. If you say "you can crouch her moves" like that's going to somehow shut down a good ZSS, then that's just matchup inexperience speaking.

Pretty sure the only ones better than that are or against and I rated 70:30 because notice what you're saying, a GOOD ZSS. ZSS can absolutly take the lead and run around the stage but that's mainly all she can do due to Kirby being light enough to escape out of nearly everything she does. Her customs also are rarely used because few of them add anything new to her that her normal moveset does better.

 

[Asdioh]

She doesn't really need customs, when 3 of her 4 default specials are already top tier moves. Paralyzer is a low risk, high reward projectile. UpB is a combo finisher or out of shield option that's crazy strong. DownB helps her recover and has invincibility, and if you happen to get hit with it offstage you're super dead. Her SideB isn't very good, but at least it can hit a crouching Kirby? Sometimes people use her other SideB customs, I don't know how much they would help in the matchup. I think one of them pulls the opponent in, which is pretty good for combos I guess.
Her safe-on-shield Dsmash and Paralyzer are part of what helps her KO power. Both those moves, as well as burying someone with DownB, give her a free UpB. Her Bair beats (or trades with) all of Kirby's aerials, and is a very powerful kill move. Fsmash is also wicked strong, and safe if she gets a stun.

I dunno... she's a really good character. A lot of her moveset does go straight over crouches, but she can just use Nairs, Dtilts, Dsmashes, all of which are reasonably safe moves, that lead into deadlier things. If someone can figure out a reliable way to gimp ZSS, when she can mix up her recovery with DownB and tethers, let me know, that might help the matchup a lot.

 

[David Viran]

Does she really KO us better then we kill her? that part idk if I can believe.
Let see....she does have some set ups for her KO moves right? slightly better then we do i could assume?
UpB, Fsmash, Dsmash to whatever.......I dont fight many online so I cant remember what I generally die too, what other kill moves does she have(mostly speaking about her ariels)
Also, idk any of her customs, but are our customs better then hers?
Considering were one of the few characters whos customs nearly all have use and greatly improve our character.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRgbfW09QKw

Yes she is very good at killing. Bair is a very reliable/safe kill move too. Flip jump combos are brutal and can kill at like 30%.

@ meda9871 As the video stated up b is a 50/50 on smaller characters not get out for free. Weight doesn't really matter on up b BTW. He can not escape everything she does and when he does start escaping he still has to land after.

 

[pichuthedk]

Unfortunate I am such a loafter or I would have posted about the Zss kirby MU and can somewhat agree that crouch trolling make the MU very annoying for Zss and yeah since I am a fraud I would say it is slightly in kirby's favor but honestly Missing a grab vs kirby because of crouching pales in comparison to getting rested by Jiggs for missing a grab for the exact same reason.

If your holding down Vs a Zss consistently because you think she has no options to approach you need to realize that sometimes you just have to set the conditions before you even bother moving forward.

Zss cant zair a crouching kirby? maybe she can't normally but if she takes him to Halbard and has the center stage while Kirby is up on the left or right sides of the platform I'm pretty sure she can get him like that, Or even Stage level zairs from the ledge, I believe @ David Viran already mentions side b as well and since side b can semi spike you (granted it's kirby for god's sake) that might have you sinking like a rock off stage until you realize and react accordingly.

Also if your crouching IIRC still waiting on confirmation from other people since I am to lazy to test atm, you still enter the footstooled animation which stops you from doing anything for x amount of frames. If I have to deal with Kirby trolling me waiting there crouching because he has a lead I am going to run around and jump around looking like an idiot until I can get in there get that footstool to instant dair and finally have him in the air and then do my very best to Shrek the hell out of his stock.
Won't work more then a few times I am sure but if I use those limited times to regain that lead or something, then I guess I will just have to play keep away afterwards which is pretty simple depending on the stage and Zss's flip jump edge cancels.

Kirby hits like a truck with some of his kill moves which has those situations pop up I'm not sure if it is more common then zss or not because Imo both chars depending on the stage / character they are facing can kill at relatively all % ranges, Also just because Nair one of her spacing tools is irrelevant up to a point doesn't mean Kirby still wont die at 30% to a downsmash -> FF nair ->flip jump spike like just about everyone else.

Kirby just about forces Zss to have her down b almost all the time when she recovering because I would Imagine at higher levels of play Kirby will just snipe her with dair every time which she can only respond to with the invincibility frames from flip jump which needs to be super precise or you get clipped and sink down to hell unless you can tech/wall jump.
However at the same time Zss can kill kirby from above as well which the exact same move if she wants to.

Ignoring cheap gimicks like zss boost kick near the top so she can push you over and things like kirby's swallowcide both characters have the tools to choose when the other dies when the right conditions are met.

Fraud Zss's like me probably have it at 55:45 in kirbys favor
Normal non scrubs are probably even 50:50
People like Nairo and Choco ect probably have it as 55:45 or 60:40 zss favor

 

[lightdasher]

No idea where to put this, but in the Kirby vs Ryu Match up, Kirbys copy ability also gives him the move combinations, so Kirby actually copies all 3 of Ryus hadokens, (the blue, slighty stronger blue and that red one) which might make fighting Ryu a little easier

 

[Kooby]

Here we go

Rosalina & Luma:

Pros:
- Luma is really easy to be K.O.'d, and most of Kirby's moves have enough knockback to knock Luma off-stage.
- The Copy Ability is useful, giving Kirby an useful projectile, which will combo from a D-air.
- Rosalina's recovery deals no damage, and it's easy to punish.
- Rosalina can be punished more easily without Luma.

Cons:
- Luma can fight Kirby while Rosalina is in a safer spot.
- Kirby's floatiness, aswell as Rosa's, makes it easy for Rosa to hit her Fai, Nair, and Bair easily.
- Rosalina's Uair is really strong, combined with how floaty Kirby is, it can kill him easily.
- Rosalina is really hard to punish when she has Luma, meaning one needs to take Luma out to punish Rosalina reliably.
- Luma is an amazing Edgeguarder, which will give Kirby some trouble if he gets launched horizontally.
- Rosalina's forward and down smashes have Disjointed Hitboxes, making them hard to punish.
- Only Luma Shot can be crouched, but with good spacing, Rosalina can punish Kirby crouching if Luma is above Kirby and uses a Down Smash

Final Score:
35:65 Rosalina has a great advantage over Kirby, with her strongest kill moves not requiring Luma, and beign vertical, which Kirby is vulnerable to.
I gave myself some time to rethink, and since this doesn't seem so credible, i'd change it to 45:55 , i don't really have much competitive experience yet, all i have is For Glory, and the people there can't make me see the actual meta, i guess i just kinda exaggerated.

Donkey Kong:

Pros:
- Donkey Kong is one of the largest characters in the game, making his hitboxes larger too, making him really easy to combo.
- Although Giant Punch is kinda useless alone, it can combo from Kirby's D-air, K.O.ing DK as early as 65% (When startign the D-air), which is quite early for a heavy character like DK.
- Donkey Kong's vertical recovery is kinda bad, making D-air meteors still capable of killing if the knockback doesn't get DK on the lower blast line.
- DK can be F-air'd off-stage if one times the F-airs correctly, even with DI, DK can still be off the camera's limits (On Omega stages atleast)

Cons:
- Not only his large hitboxes make him easier to get hit, but also makes him easier to land hits.
- DK has a total of 4 meteor smashes, giving him quite a few options to deal with Kirby off-stage.
- DK is relaly heavy, and Kirby very light, making easier for DK to K.O. Kirby, while making Kirby have a hard time K.O.ing DK.
- Most of DK's attacks have strong knockback and damage.
- Kirby can't crouch any of DK's attacks other than Giant Punch.

Final Score:
60:40 Kirby can combo DK quite a lot due to his large hitboxes and fast falling speed, and Kirby beign capable of K.O.ing him with a D-air -> Fully charged Giant Punch, despite that, DK's attack hitboxes are also large and powerful, making him hard to hit if one's not careful.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

The MUbetween kirby and Rosa is not that bad, even the Rosa boards think so.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

lol I was thinking about doing some MUs but then I saw a 70:30 Kirby/ZSS and a 35:65 Kirby/Rosalina. ugh now i cant call this thread credible anymore.

If you want my intake on the Kirby/Rosa its 50:50, Kirby has an easy time gimping Rosa, getting rid of luma, and getting his own luma, but rosa can kill him early and wall him out pretty hard.

but come on, 70:30 in Kirby/ZSS? We're becoming more conceited than the jigglypuff boards.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

lol I was thinking about doing some MUs but then I saw a 70:30 Kirby/ZSS and a 35:65 Kirby/Rosalina. ugh now i cant call this thread credible anymore.

If you want my intake on the Kirby/Rosa its 50:50, Kirby has an easy time gimping Rosa, getting rid of luma, and getting his own luma, but rosa can kill him early and wall him out pretty hard.

but come on, 70:30 in Kirby/ZSS? We're becoming more conceited than the jigglypuff boards.

I know exactly what you mean in both regards and dont forget apparently someone thinks the MU between fox and kirby is 70:30 in Foxs favor -.-

But yea the jigg boards also make no sense either, they always try to act like jiggly wouldnt have a hard time, even thinking its in their favor against pika? please....

 

[Wintermelon43]

What did we get for Luigi and Zero Suit Samus?

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

What did we get for Luigi and Zero Suit Samus?

lies

 

[Wintermelon43]

lies

I mean what numbers? The main post isn't updated.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I mean what numbers? The main post isn't updated.

Thank god it isn't.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Thank god it isn't.

But what numbers are these "Lies".

 

[Togii]

Thank god it isn't.

Look, if you don't want to come here, nobody is forcing you to. I have no way to know the skill level of the people who are posting here. If I could, I would make a rule that only tournament entrants are allowed to post analyses, but I can't afaik. Don't come to the thread specifically to talk **** about it instead of contributing to the discussion.

What did we get for Luigi and Zero Suit Samus?

Sorry, I haven't been updating the thread as often as I should. TBH, I'm probably going to give control of the thread to someone else really soon. I have very little time to update it between me moving, getting a full time job, and starting to go back to university; and between the matchup analyses posted by different users heavily conflicting with each other and the amount of negativity present, I feel like it's not worth the energy I put into it. I'll try to get the ZSS and Luigi numbers tonight and update the main post. DK and Rosa aren't gonna be phased out until we get more discussion on them (we only have 2 analyses each so far).

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Look, if you don't want to come here, nobody is forcing you to. I have no way to know the skill level of the people who are posting here. If I could, I would make a rule that only tournament entrants are allowed to post analyses, but I can't afaik. Don't come to the thread specifically to talk **** about it instead of contributing to the discussion.



Sorry, I haven't been updating the thread as often as I should. TBH, I'm probably going to give control of the thread to someone else really soon. I have very little time to update it between me moving, getting a full time job, and starting to go back to university; and between the matchup analyses posted by different users heavily conflicting with each other and the amount of negativity present, I feel like it's not worth the energy I put into it. I'll try to get the ZSS and Luigi numbers tonight and update the main post. DK and Rosa aren't gonna be phased out until we get more discussion on them (we only have 2 analyses each so far).

Sorry for talking trash, but a lot of these MUs are so bad. Just make a rule so that you can only do it if you have the MU experience, because some of these are baaaaaaaad.

 

[EMPEROR Eevee]

Sorry for talking trash, but a lot of these MUs are so bad. Just make a rule so that you can only do it if you have the MU experience, because some of these are baaaaaaaad.

^I agree.
I have experience against ZSS/Rosalina/Lugi and will post my views on the MUs later tonight after my local.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I think Zero Suit Samus is 60:40, now that I've fought aganist one. I think Mewtwo is 60:40, maybe even 65:35.

As for Rosalina and Donkey Kong, I don't know. I'll have to try the matchup out. Might be hard though due to Donkey Kong. Almost nobody uses him