The True Arena - Kirby MU Discussion "Weeks" 10/11: Ness, Meta Knight, Lucario and Lucas

[SapphSabre777]

Kirby Match-Up Discussion

NOTICE: CUSTOM MOVES ARE ON AND OFF DURING THIS DISCUSSION. VIEW THE OLD MU THREAD, WHICH REVIEWS NO CUSTOM MUS HERE.
​

Welcome, one and all, to the Kirby Matchup Thread! This is where we will discuss and analyze Kirby's matchups against other fighters in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U/3DS. As the game is new, the competitive scene is constantly growing. Remember that everybody has a different opinion than your own -- some may agree, some may disagree.

Schedule
​

Two characters will be discussed every "week," based on the results of a StrawPoll that will be released during the current "week." The poll for the next set of characters will be below, after a bit of time allowing the current matchup to be discussed. Once it's out, vote! On the last day of the week, final thoughts will be made regarding the currently-being discussed character, while the matchup ratio is being calculated.

If a character is chosen to be discussed, but has very little discussion actually posted during the week, we will keep that information for a later date and hold off on an official matchup ratio until that character is discussed again.

Discussion Rules & Guidelines
​

As stated above, opinions will vary between players. While healthy debate regarding a character is fine, flaming or harassing other people regarding their opinions will not be tolerated. Don't do anything that'll get you an infraction.

While talking about a character, the format below is recommended to keep a lively, active thread and ensure that everybody can contribute.

1. Pros
2. Cons
3. Copy Ability
4. Custom Moves
5. Stage Picks
6. Additional Notes
7. Overall Score

Additionally, in order to further give credence to a matchup ratio, it is heavily recommended that some sort of evidence of the matchup, such as videos of yourself or others in the matchup, brackets of past tournaments, or replays, is presented.

Similarly to how the overall scores have been handled within the past, the match-up score will be made into a ratio out of 100. The left side is devoted to how Kirby fares in the match-up, while the right side will involve the character in discussion. The following ratios will be used:

• 100:0 - 95:5: Kirby can eat this character faster than Strawberry Cake.

• 90:10 - 85:15: Kirby has a massive advantage.

• 80:20 - 75:25: Kirby has a strong advantage.

• 70:30 - 65:35: Kirby has a moderate advantage.

• 60:40 - 55:45: Kirby has a slight advantage.

• 50:50: Kirby is evenly matched against his opponent.

• 40:60 - 45:55: Kirby has a slight disadvantage.

• 30:70 - 35:65: Kirby has a moderate disadvantage.

• 20:80 - 25:75: Kirby has a strong disadvantage.

• 10:90 - 15:85: Kirby has a massive disadvantage.
• 0:100 - 5:95: Kirby was given expired Strawberry Cake by King DeDeDe.

We would heavily appreciate it if you could round the ratio to the nearest 5 (40:60, 45:55, etc.). Ratios are subject to be rounded further at the final stages, for cleaner looking numbers.

Matchup-Table

Special Moves Allowed| | | | | | | ||
Default | | 40:60 | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | 30:70 | 50:50 | ?:? | ?:?
Customs | | 45:55 | 45:55 | ?:? | ?:? | 35:65 | 45:55 | ?:? | ?:?
Difference| | +5 | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | +5 | -5 | ?:? | ?:?

Special Moves Allowed| | | | | | | | |
Default | | ?:? | 40:60 | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | 50:50 | ?:?
Customs| | 50:50 | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | 50:50 | ?:?
Difference| | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ±0 | ?:?

Special Moves Allowed| | | | | | | | |
Default | | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:?
Customs| | ?:? | ?:? | 60:40 | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:?
Difference| | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:?

Special Moves Allowed| | | | | | | | |
Default | | 40:60 | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | 41.5:58.5 | ?:?
Customs| | 40:60 | ?:? | 55:45 | 55:45 | 50:50 | ?:? | 40:60 | ?:?
Difference| | ±0 | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | -1.5 | ?:?

Special Moves Allowed| | | | | | | | |
Default | | ?:? | 50:50 | ?:? | ?:? | 50:50 | 50:50 | ?:? | ?:?
Customs| | ?:? | 55:45 | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | 60:40 | ?:? | ?:?
Difference| | ?:? | +5 | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | +10 | ?:? | ?:?

Special Moves Allowed| | | | | | | | |
Default | | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | 45:55 | 50:50 | 40:60
Customs| | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | 45:55 | ?:? | 40:60
Difference| | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ±0 | ?:? | ±0

Special Moves Allowed| | | | | | | |
Default | | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | 50:50 | ?:? | ?:? | ?:?
Customs| | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | 60:40 | ?:? | ?:? | ?:?
Difference| | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | +10 | ?:? | ?:? | ?:?

Weekly Results

Week 1: King Dedede, Meta Knight
[55:45]
[55:45]

Spoiler

King Dedede
Nilloce - 62.5:37.5
Ponytail - 70:30
Hyper Nova - 40:60
chaosmasterro - 45:55
Togii - 60:40
kirbyfan66 - 55:45
sparky15 - 50:50

Meta Knight
Togii - 52.5:47.5
Mazdamaxsti - 55:45
warionumbah2 - 42.5:57.5
kirbyfan66 - 55:45

Week 2: Fox, Pikachu
[50:50]
[40:60]

Spoiler

Fox
Sparky1 - 52.5:47.5
Hyper_Nova - 60:40
SapphSabre777 - 50:50
DavemanCozy - 45:55
Foster J. - 45:55
Kooby - 60:40
Togii - 30:70

Pikachu
Thor - 40:60
Kooby - 45:55

Week 3: Sheik
[50:50]

Spoiler

Sheik
Agent Emerald - 55:45
Altair357 - 50:50
Kooby - 45:55
meda9871 - 50:50
Togii - 50:50

Week 4: Luigi, Zero Suit Samus
[45:55]
[60:40]

Spoiler

Luigi
meda9871 - 55:45
Agent Emerald - 50:50
Kooby - 30:70
Dee-SmashinBoss - 40:60

Zero Suit Samus
meda9871 - 70:30
Kooby - 70:30
Togii - 70:30
Bribery - 50:50
pichuthedk - 50:50

Week 5: Rosalina & Luma, Donkey Kong
[45:55]
[50:50]

Spoiler

Rosalina & Luma
meda9871 - 60:40
Kooby - 45:55
Underhill - 40:60

Donkey Kong
Agent Emerald - 50:50
meda9871 - 50:50
Kooby - 60:40
Hyper Nova - 50:50
HunterNinjaReaperPirate♤ - 50:50

Week 6: Mario, Yoshi
[45:55]
[35:65]*

Spoiler

Mario
Togii - 45:55
Eevee - 45:55
Hyper_Nova - 50:50
Xeze - 45:55

Yoshi
Mazdamaxsti - 30:70
Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ - 30:70
* = Voted by community to flip-flop with non-custom MU

Week 7: Sonic, Captain Falcon
[40:60, 40:60*]
[50:50, 60:40]

Spoiler

Sonic
Without Customs
Sp1nda - 40:60
With Customs
N/A
* = Customs MU will be assumed to be the same until input is given in the future
Captain Falcon
Without Customs
Sp1nda - 50:50
Hyper_Nova - 50:50
With Customs
Sparky15 - 40:60
Togii - 60:40
Hyper_Nova - 60:40

Week 8: Duck Hunt, Pac-Man
[40:60*, 40:60]
[45:55*, 45:55]

Spoiler

Duck Hunt
Without Customs
N/A
With Customs
Mazdamaxsti - 40:60
Pac-Man
Without Customs
N/A
With Customs
Mazdamaxsti - 40:60
Wintermelon43 - 55:45
Megamon - 50:50
Pacman9 - 40:60

Week 9: Jigglypuff, Ryu (Thru One Week 8/20/2015)
[50:50, 55:45]
[50:50, 60:40]

Spoiler

Jigglypuff
Without Customs
Sp1nda - 55:45
SapphSabre - 45:55
Dee-SmashinBoss - 55:45
Jiggly - 45:55
Aquamentii - 45:55
Desu~ - 50:50

With Customs
MikeKirby - 50:50
Sp1nda - 60:40
Dee-SmashinBoss - 60:40
Wintermelon43 - 55:45

Ryu
Without Customs
PapaJ - 50:50

With Customs
Sp1nda - 60:40

Week 10: Rediscussion of Ness & Meta Knight (After 1 Week)
[?:?]
[?:?]

Spoiler

Ness
Without Customs
With Customs

Meta Knight
Without Customs
With Customs

Week 11: Lucario, Lucas
[?:?]
[?:?]

Spoiler

Lucario
Without Customs
With Customs
Lucas
Without Customs
With Customs

RE-DISCUSSION POLL (http://strawpoll.me/5258634/)

Mega Poll Reference; All Undiscussed Characters (Part 1: HERE; Part 2: HERE)​

 

[SapphSabre777]

Reserving this post~

 

[Nilloce]

Well to start of, I think Kirby has an advantage over Dedede. With the ones I have faced I noticed that Kirby's fast aerials and tilts are very effective on the big guy. Although a good Dedede may be able to effectively space with his aerials as they have greater range, but they are relatively punishable on landing which Kirby can take advantage of. The gordos are not a big issue as I believe they can be challenged by many of Kirby's attacks and aerials.

1. Pros:

• generally faster attacks than Dedede
• easy to punish
• Dedede is large and easy to hit while Kirby is the opposite
• combo food

2. Cons:

• Dedede is heavy (harder to KO) while Kirby is light (easier to KO)
• can be difficult to edge guard
• strong hit could end Kirby fast

3. Copy Ability: nearly identical to Kirby's ability, I'd rather stick with Kirby's inhale

4. Stage Picks: not sure exactly, I think Kirby would benefit more from platforms than Dedede. Platforms could extend combos and bait Dedede's laggy landings. I would go BF or maybe Halberd

5. Notes: I have found success with defensive gameplay against Dedede, waiting for him to commit to a move and then punishing accordingly. Kirby's fast attacks and combos are very effective however sometimes a KO option isn't so obvious.

6. Overall Score: I'd say it is in Kirby's favor for the most part, likely a 60:40 or 65:35.

 

[Ponytail]

Oh goody, a format! Now I have direction in a way to think instead of going off on a tirade about how great doughnuts are in the middle of my analysis!
Also a Disclaimer, I haven't fought any Dedede players I'd consider all that good...

1. Pros: Size is an advantage, because size matters in a fight. With Dedede's frame, it's really easy to approach with almost any short hopped aerial and it's practically guaranteed to hit. Also due to size, juggles and footstools are laughably easy. Also, Kirby is a combo MONSTER and Dedede being fa-aa-a- I mean heavy isn't to his advantage with the 30 trillion uptilts that can pop him right in a row followed up with up airs and a back air, or whatever you fancy. Also, Dedede's recovery is... predictable. His recovery puts him into a helpless state, it's kinda obvious, and if he forgoes helplessness then it's the easiest thing to see the path of trajectory... or he SDs and you can't help but laugh.
   
2. Cons: WAIT, HE KO'D ME AT 40%?!?!!!? SAKURAI PLS NURF. Okay, in all seriousness, Kirby's light and Dedede isn't light (haha) on KO options. Dedede also significantly outranges us and (tears in my eyes right now) has a better projectile game. Plus, almost all of Dedede's attacks are disjointed (grr) and ours aren't unless we bring out OUR hammer... which in my opinion is terrible when you consider his. Gordos are my least favorite thing in this game, like that's literally worse than Ganondorf (Submit to the terribad memes).
   
3. Copy Ability: Well I suppose if you went with Jumping Inhale... yeah, this is for disrespect.
   
4. Stage Picks: My knowledge of stage picking is non-existent... so Smashville all the way!
   
5. Overall Score: Despite the quite major disadvantages kirby has here, I believe this match is quite heavily in the pink puff's favor. While my opinion may change at the end of the tentative interval that will conclude this mighty discussion, I'm placing it at 70:30 right now

 

[RedNova]

Wow, this thread seems so much better than the last one, I hope we could keep the discussion in this format later on.
Anyways, I too haven't played against a good DDD, but I use him myself, so I'll give it a try.

• Pros: Because of the King's huge size, you can use like 20 u-tilts to rack up damage. You can deal with his Gordos with well timed nAirs, but be careful with Topspin Gordo. Also, his jumps are a lot more slower and he does not gain as much distance as Kirby, so he will be using his upB frequently. You can dair him multiple times, or use meteor stone with prediction for an early kill, just watch out for his Rising Dedede.

• Cons: One hit and you're dead... Kirby needs to constantly combo him to avoid getting koed early. Fortunenatly, his kill moves are a little slow, so you can avoid and punish accordingly.

• Copy Ability: It's the same as Kirby's, so bring Ice Breath this time

• Stage Picks: I usually blame myself and not the stage when I lose, so I guess I can't help in this one.

• Additional Notes: About other custom moves Kirby should bring (excluding Upper Cutter, wich should be staple), I could recommend Hammer Flip. If you time it right, you can get the super armor right after he gets back to the stage. Or if you're feeling bold, armor through his forward smash (seriously don't do that...)

• Overall Score: Although I would say 50-50, instead I'm gonna go with 40-60, because although it's far from unwinnable, all the DDD player needs is one mistake.

 

[chaosmasterro]

Pros:
We can easy grab to b-throw conversions up until around 30. I also recommend b-throw to upper cutter on dedede once he is
in his 30%s to cheese out 50%. He has a really bad landing options. Punish Super Dedede jumps from above rather than underneath or the side!

Cons:
We have to approach him through his gordo barrage. Well placed gordo positioning makes it hard to get a good approach in. Hitting the gordo back is hard because Kirby is pretty much the same size as Gordo lol and there are time where the gordo can hit you for trading with it.

Copy Ability/Customs:
Hammer choice is optional and be careful of his taste test as it is really quick.
Jet hammer is something worth looking out for as it works similar to our hammer flip and his armored jet hammer is a watered down version of our giant hammer.
I recommend ice breath as you get a disjointed hitbox to repel gordos. Copying Dedede is a problem as it doesn't benefit us as well as it benefits him. Eating a Gordo = punishment.
Stone choice is optional.
Upper cuter is recommended to avoid off stage gimps. Wave cutter is decent to punish on stage landings of Super Dedede jump and ledge grab attempts. Final cutter's blade helps knock back gordos but punishable during the shockwave part.

Stage choice:
I feel stages where sharking is enforced are all good options against Dedede. Platforms prevents Dedede from ensuring complete stage control using Gordos as they have to come from one angle.

Additional notes:
A lot of Dededes I play tend to use down smash a lot to catch players rolling into them as it has a deceptively big hitbox.
Watch up for down throw to fair at low percents and his down throw to up air at mid range %s. Watch out for down tilts, a lot of Dededes go for this move when they are vulnerable or look vulnerable.

45-55 Dedede - because of Dedede's weight and follow ups from a grab

 

[Dessa]

I have to gather my thoughts about the matchup before I make an actual judgement post, but I'd like to note a few things about some of the above:

Grounded, Uptilt is amazing vs. Gordos. It covers them if they're coming in the front OR the top, doesn't trade with Gordos, and is lightning quick.
Stages with low platforms are NOT good Vs. Dedede. He can reach through the platforms on battlefield easily.
He's big and heavy, but floaty, and he can escape utilt combos more easily than the likes of a Bowser or Falcon. Don't count on simply utilting to victory. He's still susceptible to utilt combos, but you have to mix it up a bit.

 

[Togii]

Pros
Easily combo-able due to huge hitbox and decent fall speed
Bthrow bair connects to around 30%
Kirby somehow outmaneuvers him in the air
Most of Dedede's kill moves have huge endlag, so are easily punishable if avoided.

Cons
Extremely difficult to kill if Dedede plays safe, due to his weight and recovery
Has a decent projectile that can kill
Can kill very early with smash attacks and uair
Dedede has much better spacing than Kirby

Copy Ability
Useless

Stage Picks
Delfino - platforms benefit Kirby more than Dedede, the stage transitions give Kirby windows of opportunity to negate Dedede's biggest advantage (weight), and Kirby can shark on this stage. This is my #1 pick against Dedede.

Battlefield, Halberd, Town & City - these have elements of Delfino that will be useful, but not all of them. These are my choices if Delfino is unavailable.

Castle Siege - I don't have much experience against Dedede here, but I feel it would work in Kirby's favor a lot. First transformation is small and has platforms, meaning it's easy for Kirby to get in. Second transformation has the statues to block gordos.

Additional Notes

• I would take 223X into this matchup, due to his copy ability being worthless and his recovery having super armor.
• Kirby's best bet is to observe how Dedede is spacing, find an opportunity to get in, get a good combo in on him until he spaces you out again. Rinse and repeat.
• Fair is your friend in this matchup, as it has multiple hits that can reflect a stray gordo if he happens to throw one out.
• Dedede has a huge body with terrible aerial speed. Use this to your advantage to go offstage and throw out some aerials. If you're lucky/good, you can steal enough of his jumps that his up-b will not be enough to recover. Just don't be too predictable with it, as Dedede can still throw out aerials of his own while trying to recover.
• Killing Dedede is Kirby's biggest challenge. I'd say the best options are probably

1. Upper cutter at high percents/altitudes due to Dedede's abysmal horizonal aerial movement. Just be careful, as if you miss you can eat a uair and take an early death
2. Side smash after Dedede uses a laggy move
3. Meteor stone is good as an unexpected kill option, and easy-ish to hit on Dedede offstage for the same reasons as upper cutter.

Overall Score
As long as Kirby plays safe and doesn't get side-smashed into oblivion at 50%, I'd say this matchup is:

60:40

 

[Unknownkid]

I like the format but are we starting over on Rosalina, Pikachu, Villager, Ness, and Sheik?

 

[TMJ_Jack]

I won't go into heavy detail, but the match-up is very difficult to pin to say 70:30, 20:80, ect.. Dedede is wacky AF. A good one can have plenty wiggle room against characters like Shiek and Rosaluma but stuggle against filthy spammers. It just comes down to the Dedede. I win most Kirby matches, even against really good Kirbys, so it's hard for me to say either way.
Also, I would say that copying Dedede's Inhale is a good move. Dedede's Inhale has more longevity and range than Kirby's at the trade off a little extra lag.

 

[kirbyfan66]

Woohoo! Dedede is my secondary! I actually have a lot to say about this matchup.

But before we start, can we add a category for Custom Moves? We have Pros/Cons/Ability/etc, but we don't have one for Customs. I think it'd be a good idea, at least.

1. Pros
   Playing Dedede is all about spacing. This is very important as this is Kirby's biggest strength in the matchup, as well as his biggest disadvantage.
   
   On the good side, this means that Dedede players have to play a very specific game in order to get the most out of him. We get to play much more creatively, as Kirby isn't restricted to playing a certain way. Offensive Kirby's can punish Dedede's slower moves with things like Forward Air, Down Air (if they see a good opportunity, of course, because Down Air is mega unsafe), a grab, Up Tilt (Pivoted Up Tilts are amazing for this one), and whatever move they feel like they can get good damage off of. And the Up Air juggles? Crazy. They can chase Dedede offstage because, while Dedede has very solid and fairly quick aerials, they're mostly pretty slow. Kirby's aren't the fastest, but they're more than good enough to take care of Dedede. Dedede will likely recover most of the time due to his solid recovery, but any damage is certainly good, especially against a heavy character. Do be careful, though, because Dedede's offstage game is good. Just be creative offstage! Kirby's good at that.
   
   Defensive Kirby's like myself can tell you that this is not a fast matchup. If a Dedede player is spacing well and Kirby is playing it safe, it's... not spectator friendly. Super intense for the players, though! Luckily, even though Dedede outranges Kirby, he is slow. His Jab is pretty quick, but at %s where it would be scary, Kirby can DI out of it fine. We also don't have to worry about the infinite (is that still in?), since Kirby is so light. Moves like Down Tilt, Forward Tilt, Back Air, Neutral Air, Forward Air, heck, even Kirby's Jab are effective. When Kirby is on the opposite side of the stage and holding Jab, Dedede's only options are to either approach with a Gordo or approach without, and it's easy to predict which it will be. This not only gives Kirby stage control, in a sense, but it also helps the Kirby player determine how the Dedede player will space. It's nifty. Do note, though, that if a Dedede has Bouncing Gordo, the Jab stuff probably won't work. But you can send the Gordo back with an attack! Which is also nifty.
   
   
2. Cons
   ughhhh KO'ing Dedede is so haaaaaaaaard
   
   Yeah, this is an obvious one - not only does Dedede outrange Kirby, but he's a heavy character with an excellent recovery, especially with Custom Moves put into the equation. Also with Custom Moves, if Dedede has Rising Dedede, he gets a free OoS option against Kirby, and this one annihilates any of Kirby's - yes, even Upper Cutter. It isn't safe, but it's so powerful. It KO's us super early! Kirby has to be super careful not to get caught by an OoS from Dedede (Neutral Air and Forward Air are also pretty good, but less effective). Meaning, Kirby is mostly restricted to a punish game. This is more flexible than having to space, as I mentioned earlier, but we can't "go ham" like we can in some other matchups.
   
   Dedede's Neutral Air is excellent and is super fast, so approaching horizontally is tough. Approaching vertically is risky as well since Dedede has very good anti-airs, even if most of them are a bit slow. This is not including his excellent Up Air, which can net some nasty Star KOs if we're not careful. Approaching on the ground is SUPER risky, since, as all Dedede players know, his Down Throw combos into things extremely well. It even combos into Up Smash at super low %s! Most Dedede's follow up Down Throw with either Neutral Air or Up Air, and even though Kirby is light, there's... not much we can do about it. With Down Throw -> Up Air, be very careful on stages with low ceilings! Kirby's aerials are generally good, though - he can't do much about our retreating aerials due to their superior speed. More offensive Kirby's probably know how to make his aerials safe without retreating, but an offensive Kirby I am not.
   
   
3. Custom Moves
   Kirby has some of the best Customs in the game. Dedede does not, but that doesn't mean they should be underestimated.
   
   I don't know what other Dedede players think of Inhale and Dedede Storm, but Taste Test is great! It's like Inhale except it's faster. And you get spit out right away, meaning Dededecides aren't possible. But, eh, the speed is much better. All of Dedede's sets don't have Gordo #2, so we only have to worry about normal Gordo and Bouncing Gordo. Normal Gordo isn't that great here, but Bouncing Gordo gives Dedede some stage control, which can help against Kirby. I mentioned a counter to this earlier, though, and even with platforms it's fairly easy to take care of if you're ready for it. Rising Dedede is an amazing OoS option, and it's good for recovery, but the other two have their merits. Well, I don't know what they are, but the Dedede boards do. I stick with Rising Dedede every day. As for Armored Jet Hammer - yes, this is the only Jet Hammer Custom because the other two are essentially useless - this is one to be careful for, but only when Dedede is grounded. As far as I'm aware, Dedede in the air doesn't gain the armor. Besides, Kirby can easily hit Dedede from above, below, or behind, so I wouldn't worry too much. If you see Dedede use this on the ground, either get in a grab or bait him out and punish.
   
   As for Kirby, well, we all know how good they are! You really do have a lot of options here. 3231 (Jumping Inhale/Hammer Bash/Upper Cutter/Stone) is good for every matchup due to its versatility, 3233 (same thing but with Meteor Stone) gives you a meteor that even Dedede can't recovery from, 1231 (Inhale/Hammer Bash/Upper Cutter/Stone) gives you some fun Inhale shenanigans, 2231 (Ice Breath/Hammer Bash/Upper Cutter/Stone) gives you Ice Breath shenanigans, and 3221 (my baby, Jumping Inhale/Hammer Bash/Wave Cutter/Stone) allows you to wall out Dedede. THAT IS IMPORTANT. I would obviously recommend 3221, solely because I'm the resident "guys use Wave Cutter" person, but honestly, all of these have their merits and do great in the matchup. It's up to you! Dedede players should know that, 1111 aside, we don't have a Final Cutter set. Final Cutter... isn't the best. I wish it was, though.
   
   As for Dedede, I would use my personal set in this matchup as well - 3322. Might have been a bit biased with this one, sorry. =P
   
   
4. Copy Ability
   Dedede's Inhale is actually pretty good. It does more damage, as far as I know it does more damage, and of course, there's the disrespect factor. With that said, Kirby's Inhale got buffed and I'm not sure if Dedede's did as well. Jumping Inhale is actually not very effective here, at least against a Custom Dedede using whatever Gordo of choice wisely. On the other hand, Ice Breath could serve some purpose in the matchup, at least more than in others. Most Dedede players will tell you that they like Taste Test more (I think? I know I do), but that doesn't effect us. Poor Kirby.
   
   
5. Stage Picks
   Good ones for Dedede? I would pick Duck Hunt. There are so many hazards on that stage to begin with, which makes it harder for Kirby to take care of whatever Gordo Dedede has. Halberd is also a good pick for Dedede - we can't forget how good Dedede's Up Air is! Halberd's low ceiling helps him greatly here.
   
   Good ones for Kirby? Delfino Plaza is always an amazing Kirby pick. The ceiling might be low, but the variety of different stage settings really allows Kirby to play however he wants. The water makes using Stone safe, too! And those Meteor Stone setups thanks to the water? Please. Lylat is a pretty fun one, because even with fixed edges, Kirby can do fun things under the stage. I also personally like Battlefield with Wave Cutter, but that's getting into specific move territory!
   
   Smashville, Town & City, Final Destination, Battlefield, and Castle Siege are pretty even, I would think. Castle Siege has a lot of wacky properties to it, so I'm not too sure. Final D helps Dedede space but he can't hide under platforms. Battlefield I would only say is even if the Kirby player is really good with Wave Cutter walling/abusing Upper Cutter's disjoint. Smashville is even for everybody, basically, and Town & City has good/bad properties for both characters. Hopefully I'm not forgetting any stages!
   
   
6. Additional Notes
   Kind of hard to put in additional notes when I typed so much! If you want the tl;dr, Dedede outranges Kirby and can focus on spacing Kirby out and getting great grab setups. On the other hand, Kirby is allowed to play very creatively and can change styles on the fly, as well as having superior speed and more options with Customs.
   
   Oh, and I'm well aware that Dedede's only options aren't to space the opponent out. But honestly, the most effective Dedede's, at least in this matchup, are pro at spacing. And edgeguarding, but hey, Kirby's can edgeguard pretty well in this matchup too.
   
   
7. Overall Score
   After all that? I want to say this is in Kirby's favor. By much? No way, but I still want to say that Kirby edges out in the long run. If anything, it's only 55-45 in Kirby's favor, but if someone put up a convincing argument for 50-50, I'd change my vote. I'll keep it Kirby 55-45 Dedede for now.

 

[Leonyx]

I must be missing something in this matchup, as I always have a hard time fighting the king. His extra range and disjoints are a problem for me. Once I can get in though, combos are a breeze.

 

[Unknownkid]

I must be missing something in this matchup, as I always have a hard time fighting the king. His extra range and disjoints are a problem for me. Once I can get in though, combos are a breeze.

Likewise. Out of all the characters, Tripe D seems to be my bane. I can deal with Bowser, Lucina/Marth, Diddy and Pikachu but something about DDD that I cannot always beat.

 

[Togii]

I like the format but are we starting over on Rosalina, Pikachu, Villager, Ness, and Sheik?

I think so, seeing as previously the discussion was really messy and the patch changed some things up.

 

[Sparky15]

Dedede is simple. You have to be patient with his spacing due to his wall of Gordos. A simple f-smash or b-air should knock it back, even though it is a risky option. And even though Kirby can combo King Dedede like nobody's business, I feel like he makes up for his combination of weight and rage. Also, his own b-air is much better than Kirby's, but that;s practically all of his moves in general. I never played with customs on, but copying King Dedede's Inhale is fun, since you can catch one jumping in mid-air and suck them in and spit them out. This is especially useful when he does this in a recovering position, since you're able to spit him of the stage, as the star travels farther than when his original Inhale does.

This matchup feels even, 50:50. Kirby has speed, great combo capabilities, and solid strength but very light and short ranged. King Dedede has much more power, more range, and overall generally larger than Kirby, but is very prone to getting hit a bit and lacks in speed as well. Maybe a good stage for Kirby would FD/Omega stages, since I fear that Kirby doesn't want to put up with platform pressure from a giant hammer on Battlefield and even Smashville. Duck Hunt and Town and City would be OK, though..

 

[Locuan]

@ Aunt Jemima , it seems Kirby obtained Lucina's shield-breaker recently.

Hey everyone! Discussion for the Kirby match-up at the Lucina boards is set to begin. It'd be great if you could help us out!
http://smashboards.com/threads/lucina-match-up-discussion-update-kirby.373171/

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Likewise. Out of all the characters, Tripe D seems to be my bane. I can deal with Bowser, Lucina/Marth, Diddy and Pikachu but something about DDD that I cannot always beat.

Ikr? (I know online perspectives aren't great but they can still help)
Yea idk why but I am generally bad at avoiding Gordos almost all the time, I'm learning, but my goodness is that projectile annoying......The fact he outranges us, out powers us, out weights us? And that surprisingly his ariels are safe and it's tough to do anything below or above or even in front of him if your not quick enough :/
I play aggressive generally so maybe I should learn more on how to correct myself.

 

[slavoslav]

I play both Dedede and Kirby and can't possibly see how this MU could be in Kirby's favor. How's the puffball supposed to get in with his poor air mobility and mediocre ground speed against Dedede's hammer and Gordo spam? Kirby gets clobbered by the King in my opinion.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I play both Dedede and Kirby and can't possibly see how this MU could be in Kirby's favor. How's the puffball supposed to get in with his poor air mobility and mediocre ground speed against Dedede's hammer and Gordo spam? Kirby gets clobbered by the King in my opinion.

How about elaborating more on what you mean?
It all depends on how you play, and this is suppose to be a very patient MU and you have to punish accordingly.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

I'll update the OP with Dedede soon, at the moment talk about Meta Knight.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Oh god him?
Well it's safe to say it's NOTHING like brawl, but I barely ever face MKs online so I can't really give many if any, tips whatsoever :/
But at least we can approach him w/o much trouble and he has a tough time killing(generally right)

 

[Togii]

Alright, my friend plays a lot of Meta Knight, so I have some good Kirby experience in the matchup.

Pros
Meta Knight is a defensive character at heart in Smash 4, and Kirby can force an approach and punish pretty easily. Spot dodge is your friend when he does, as it beats his dash grab and dash attack. His only other approach options are Drill Rush, Mach Tornado, and SH dair, which are all easily punishable.

Kirby kills much easier than Meta Knight, in my opinion. As long as you don't get caught by a raw Shuttle Loop, Meta Knight is lacking in kill options.

Cons
Kirby has about as much trouble approaching Meta Knight as vice versa. Approaching from the air is risky due to Mach Tornado and MK's fast aerials, but baiting these moves out and air dodging/avoiding them can work if you're quick.

Meta Knight is really fast on the ground. You need to be ready for his approaches, and don't get baited into a reaction or you WILL get grabbed/dash attacked.

Copy Ability
Mach Tornado is actually pretty good against Meta Knight. You can't Kirbycide Meta Knight very well, so I try to get Mach Tornado as soon as an opening presents itself. One mindgame I love to use on MK is run up to him -> Mach Tornado. This is almost guaranteed the first time, as they will think you're going for a grab and spot dodge, or get trapped in shield (which a full mach tornado will poke through). You can also punish his approaches with it if you're smart. As always, don't get predictable, as it does have a LOT of endlag and is easily punishable.

Stage Picks
This is tough, as both Kirby and Meta Knight both thrive on similar stages. I suppose I'd recommend stages with few platforms, as Meta Knight LOVES to trap people on platforms with uair/nair/utilt.

• First pick: Final Destination

• Secondary pick: Delfino Plaza - mostly a comfort pick for me, but the water portions can give Kirby a slight advantage

• Tertiary pick: Duck Hunt - few platforms, and has close blast-zones on the sides. Meta Knight kills almost exclusively vertically, with his only horizontal kill moves being fsmash, bair, and dsmash (at very high percents).

Custom Moves
Ideal Personal Pick: 2123

Inhale or Jumping Inhale is a must, Mach Tornado is a decent move, and Ice Breath does almost nothing against MK.

I recommend bringing Hammer Flip for punishing shield breaks and if he does a special move in the air, as they all make him free-fall (especially good at punishing whiffed Shuttle Loops, if you're quick). Hammer Bash is okay too, but Giant Hammer is awful in this matchup.

I highly recommend against using Upper Cutter as a kill move against Meta Knight; it leaves you completely open for a Shuttle Loop, which is one of MK's best kill moves. I've been meaning to try Wave Cutter in the matchup, but keep forgetting to.

Stone is personal preference. Meteor Stone is nice, as MK loves to hover around the edge without actually grabbing it, and you can get him easily with it if he misses ledge with the first hit of Shuttle Loop. Regular stone is nice for shield breaks, and Grounding Stone is good for baits. Mix it up a little between games to keep MK on edge.

Additional Notes
Kirby likes to be above his foes, Meta Knight likes to be underneath them. Try not to go for dair or stone too much, as MK can easily hop up there and Shuttle Loop/Mach Tornado/uair you.

Meta Knights love to use dthrow to fair. This is practically guaranteed at low percents, but you can avoid it by mixing up your DI at around 50% or so.

Bthrow to bair is guaranteed at 0%, and only 0%. Use it if you can, but don't fish for it or you'll get punished.

Edguarding Meta Knight is always interesting. He's actually suceptible to dair as long as his Shuttle Loop is out of range of the stage, so baiting out a couple of jumps by hovering around him, then dairing him will sometimes net a kill.

Don't try to punish his fsmash. I'll repeat; DON'T TRY TO PUNISH HIS FSMASH. It has almost no ending lag and is an amazing bait I see way too many people fall for. Only try to punish it if he absolutely whiffs it and only with a quick move.

Overall Score
This ended up being longer than I thought it would be. Overall, this matchup is played pretty defensively. Both characters have difficulties approaching, and few stage positions give one character an advantage over the other. This matchup requires a lot of patience, and I've found the first person to lose their cool loses the advantage as well.

I want to say that this matchup is either even or very slightly in Kirby's favor. I'll give it a 52.5:47.5 for right now.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

As a Meta Knight secondary (Once my main but I've moved on from him), I can give some opinions on this MU.

PROS:
- Meta Knight is a very offensive character (not defensive at all to the person above me) and thrives off of comboes and punishes. Kirby's good frame data and floatiness makes him harder to punish and combo (especially u-air strings).
- Meta Knight has the same (if not worse) disadvantage with range. This means Kirby can get in easier, which Kirby thrives off of.
- Meta Knight does not have an easy time when his opponents are below him, when Kirby has no trouble with his opponents above him.
- Meta Knight is good at edge-guarding, but Kirby has a good recovery so -1 for him.
- Meta Knight benefits most from his opponents being above him (his best kill moves, and combo moves involve them being in the air for a juggle), but Kirby has plenty of tools to stop him (d-air, rock, n-air to intercept some moves, etc).
- Meta Knight has the 8th(?) best u-smash in the game, which Kirby can duck under.

CONS:
- Meta Knight's up-b can kill Kirby INSANELY early, and if the first hit lands the 2nd is almost guaranteed on him.
- Meta Knight's b-air is an insanely good kill move, which will kill Kirby at 70% offstage if he gets you with it.
- Kirby can't edge-guard MK, since his recovery is godly.
- Meta Knight has good approach options, Kirby does not. Meta Knight demolishes Kirby in this area.
- U-tilt - U-air is risky, since his n-air comes out fast.

COPY ABILITY:
Its up to you, there is no reason you should use it, but it is nice to have. I haven't tested it (but I should, and I will) but u-tilt to tornado seems like a cool string. This could help kirby rack up damage. I feel like its more useful to have, but to pull out an inhale is super risky.

STAGE PICKS:
Starters:
- FD is Meta Knight's absolute worst stage, since he can't use platforms and the ceiling is average. Try to get this in, but I doubt you will.
- Town and City is Meta Knight's best starter stage. The platforms give him good mobility and combo ability, and the ceiling is low. Ban this first.
- All other starters are debatable.

Counter Picks:
- Don't ban Delfino. This is a crap stage for Meta Knight, the platforms completely block out his mobility and stop his combos.
- Do not let him/you pick Halberd. Do not. Really good stage for him.
- Do not let him/you pick Kongo Jungle. Also good stage for MK.
- Duck Hunt isn't a good stage for him, go ahead and pick it.

ADDITIONAL NOTES:
Not really anything to say, but be very careful against him. Kirby's frame data, again, is very good and harder to punish, but Meta Knight thrives off of your mistakes, combos, and aggressiveness. Try to put him into a bad situation, like baiting any of his specials (ESPECIALLY UP-B). Don't let him land his smashes.

OVERALL SCORE:
55:45. This MU is mostly even, but MK's game is countered by Kirby fairly well.

 

[Togii]

Maybe defensive was the wrong word. It's weird for a character without projectiles or anything to be defensive. Maybe the word I was looking for is "patient"?

I just feel like MK is one of the best characters at defending and punishing approaches, while having limited approach options himself. Most MK's I see play with a sort of "come and fight me, I'm not coming to you" approach, and it seems to work out for them. I could be wrong since I don't really play the character, but just speaking from matchup experience and most MK VODs I've watched.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Maybe defensive was the wrong word. It's weird for a character without projectiles or anything to be defensive. Maybe the word I was looking for is "patient"?

I just feel like MK is one of the best characters at defending and punishing approaches, while having limited approach options himself. Most MK's I see play with a sort of "come and fight me, I'm not coming to you" approach, and it seems to work out for them. I could be wrong since I don't really play the character, but just speaking from matchup experience and most MK VODs I've watched.

True, he is very patient, but if you watch, lets say, Ito, you will see MK's offensive side. MK has awesome approach options, with his dash attack being extremely safe, his grabs are decent, and aerials don't lag. A lot of MK's will stay back though, but it doesn't suit him very well.

 

[Togii]

@ Aunt Jemima Who do you have planned for tomorrow? Might I recommend Rosalina & Luma? They seem to be a dominant force in the customs metagame and, as such, I feel are an important matchup to discuss.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

@ Aunt Jemima Who do you have planned for tomorrow? Might I recommend Rosalina & Luma? They seem to be a dominant force in the customs metagame and, as such, I feel are an important matchup to discuss.

byte mii

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

byte mii

May I recommend Pika? Him or maybe Jiggs, btw how long are we talking about each character? A week may actually be a little too long IMO.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

May I recommend Pika? Him or maybe Jiggs, btw how long are we talking about each character? A week may actually be a little too long IMO.

byte mii

 

[Berserker.]

@ Aunt Jemima Who do you have planned for tomorrow? Might I recommend Rosalina & Luma? They seem to be a dominant force in the customs metagame and, as such, I feel are an important matchup to discuss.

I say you guys should save Elsa (the best) for last, right Levnei?

Heh? HEH?

 

[warionumbah2]

The MU is 55:45/60:40 in s favour.

Kirby does not force MK to do anything since his mid range game is poor as well as his overall mobility(and lack og projectile), MK players don't have to do much in neutral while Kirby players MUST constantly be pressing buttons to prevent MK from getting in. Kirby has to work harder just keep MK out.

Good MKs won't use down throw to fair due to its low damage output, they will use forward throw into shuttle loop which is very hard to DI or down throw to grounded shuttle loop which cannot be avoided until 80%+(deals 22%) your best bet is to DI towards MK but MK can then use fair into buffered shuttle loop which deals 25% .

MK is not offensive especially in this MU, on certain stages he can camp you and there's nothing kirby can really do tbh. MK can walk up to Kirby and use Ftilt, this has good range enough to outrange Kirby's aerials.

MK can edgeguard Kirby effectively while Kirby cannot do the same, cape avoids his stone and drill rush beats all his aerials. I'm baffled by how many people say that MK struggles to kill, Kirby's range is poor so F-smash is a reliable kill move in this MU which replaces Up-Smash and Up throw will be a reliable kill move.

Then he has kill setups of his frame 3 Dtilt,throws and DA.

Kirby can effectively wall out MK to an extent but that doesn't force MK to approach at all. MK doesn't lose to his fellow Kirby represents in this game just like Brawl.

Kirby is in the same boat as poor range(not Falco),poor mobility,weak mid range game(Falco has a good DA),strong boxing game and sexy frame data.

loves tall,light and slow characters because tall characters get hit by U-Smash,light characters get obliterated by his moves and slow characters because he can really play like a *****. Don't expect a reliable ratio or MU description on customs since almost all MKs don't play it.

take that back some do play it (God knows why) but they don't enjoy it from what i read and im one of the MKs that don't play customs at all anymore.

MKs worst stage is FD any other stage is good. Duck hunt is not a poor stage for MK btw, Helberd Is a free win for MK. MK doesnt mind delfino lol just another stage where he can camp you and abuse low ceilings

 

[Togii]

Good to hear from a Meta Knight player's perspective. I would agree that without custom moves, this matchup is slightly in MK's favor. I do, however, think that we (and the other character boards) should take custom moves as a serious factor in matchup discussions, as they will be legal at EVO and are becoming increasingly more widespread and accepted (at least in the U.S.A.).

From a custom moves perspective, I think that Kirby gets a few extra tools from custom moves that move it more in Kirby's favor. For example, Shuttle Loop at low percents gets Kirby a free Grounding Stone into whatever follow-up he wants, and Upper Cutter gives Kirby a decent disjoint to stop MK from just walking up and ftilting him.

 

[kirbyfan66]

I like to use Meta Knight sometimes, but I'm not overly sure on what he does. All I really know is that he has to play the matchup safe. So does Kirby. Luckily both of them have neat ways to get damage so it isn't all about being safe. I feel like their range is pretty similar, although Meta Knight does have some farther reaching aerials that we need to look out for.

1111 Kirby vs 1111 Meta Knight is probably in Meta Knight's favor, but I can't see it being better/worse than 45:55 (with Kirby being on the left of course). With Customs in the fray I doubt Kirby doesn't win this, although again, if he does, then at best it's 55:45.

Looks like Meta Knight's Customs are far from the best, but Kirby has great ones! 3231 is a good one, maybe even 3233 because Meta Knight's vertical recovery is really good. We'd need to watch out for the cape, but we do have Upper Cutter which is nice. I like having Wave Cutter for this match, since it goes REALLY far and gives Kirby an option from far away, even though it can be punished if we're not careful. And since it looks like Mach Tornado isn't the best ability, maybe we can use 2231? I feel like Ice Breath would be cool for this matchup.

Kirby can shark/"lame it out"/abuse low ceilings incredibly well on Delfino as well, keep in mind (although Delfino has high ceilings sometimes so who knows). Halberd is bad for Kirby, Final D is good for Kirby. Battlefield can be annoying for both although I'd assume Meta Knight likes it better. Lylat is better for Kirby I guess? Castle Siege I would argue for Kirby. Town & City and Smashville seems evenly sided for both.

 

[mitchman77]

Kirbys been my boy since 64. although i was a casual smasher back then. when we played at my nanas house. i remember using the rock move a lot. his aerials are amazing. bair can string really well, nair is a good combo breaker, and fair hits multiple times. dont forget that his up air and nair have very little end lag. kirbys just an amazing character and probably one of my favourite nintendo characters. which is one of the reasons why i main him in smash 4.

 

[Altair357]

In my experience, Mach Tornado is actually great for us. We can mash it out for about 21-23% damage and it comes out pretty quick, resulting in a very useful punish move against Meta Knight.

 

[kirbyfan66]

I like Mach Tornado as well, although it does seem to have its ups and downs. Plus I'm pretty sure that Ice Breath shuts down all of Meta Knight's grounded options, although I could be wrong on that.

 

[Togii]

I like Mach Tornado as well, although it does seem to have its ups and downs. Plus I'm pretty sure that Ice Breath shuts down all of Meta Knight's grounded options, although I could be wrong on that.

I've found that it does shut down most of his grounded options, but its endlag is ridiculous, allowing Meta Knight to jump over you and get a free ~20% from Mach Tornado. Since you can't really edgeguard him with it either, I don't think it's a good idea in this matchup.

 

[kirbyfan66]

Then the hunt for a matchup other than Yoshi where Ice Breath is useful continues, I suppose. Do we prefer Inhale or Jumping Inhale, then? I would assume Jumping Inhale since we can start the move from farther away and get it to work, but regular Inhale might have its uses too.

 

[Altair357]

Inhale does 2% more damage on Copy and Meta Knight can't punish Copy as far as I know. Might be a good move to use, though probably outclassed by Jumping Inhale anyway.

Also, I'm pretty sure Ice Breath is useful against Captain Falcon, but it's not like we need much help in that matchup anyway.

 

[Togii]

Well, it's been 2 days since this thread was supposed to be updated. Since Reserved is busy posting in the Zelda Social thread, I'm gonna say that we should continue without him and take his "byte mii" comments as suggestions instead of nonsense.

So, I'm (as officially as I can) declaring week 3 of Kirby matchup discussion for

Mii Brawler

I, unfortunately, do not have any experience in this matchup, but I think Mii Brawler is a force to be reckoned with, and has seen a rise in popularity since the patch. Looking forward to discussing him.