The stale moves effect:

[xeonoex]

Should it be left in, removed or changed?

Stale moves is the effect (I'm sure almost all of you know) is when over using an attack causes it to do less damage. To bring up the damage for it you must die or stop spamming it, but alot of strategies consist of attack spamming, and though stale moves isn't a huge change from normal damage, its still something.

So what do you think? Keep it, remove it or change it?

Personally I think it should be removed or change to something like taunting refreshes the moves. So if u spam fair in a battle, and the attack does 3% less because of that, but you get a kill, you have time to taunt while your opponent is down, and "refresh" your moves, so they go back to their original strength. This would also give taunting a purpose. But some very long taunt would have to be shortened like Mario's and Young Link's.


Sorry if this has been done before. It just came to my head, and I searched and didn't find anything.

 

[A-Laon]

I don't tend to ever really notice it, though I'm sure if it were removed I'd clearly feel a difference (those near-death-but-not-quite moments being replaced with solid kills, for example). Personally, I don't see any purpose for this effect, especially as it's detrimental to the previously mentioned spammy characters / combos by nature, and seeing as I've never really noticed it in the first place, I wouldn't miss it in its removal.

 

[BackItch]

Why nerf a game mechanic that discourages people from spamming the same move over and over?

If anything, the "Stale Moves" effect should be increased. It would encourage people to try new moves and techniques, or at least mix things up a bit to keep thier good moves from becoming stale.

The only way a person should be able to "reset" thier stale moves should be using other moves.

 

[xeonoex]

Why nerf a game mechanic that discourages people from spamming the same move over and over?

If anything, the "Stale Moves" effect should be increased. It would encourage people to try new moves and techniques, or at least mix things up a bit to keep thier good moves from becoming stale.

The only way a person should be able to "reset" thier stale moves should be using other moves.

A lot of tactics require spamming, like Marth's fair combos, and a taunt to refresh them wont be game breaking.

Anyways, attack spamming isn't to hard to get around, unless its like Falco's SHL or something, and even then its still not to hard with most characters. Spamming attacks is not a noob tactic or anything.

 

[A-Laon]

Why nerf a game mechanic that discourages people from spamming the same move over and over?

Because a competent player's ability to punish repitition does that already.

 

[BackItch]

Yes, everyone knows that repitition and spamming is easy to work around. It's not a great tactic to do the same move over and over.

I think the "Stale Moves" mechanic is there for people who are learning how to play the game properly. It punishs people for spamming when the less experienced players they play against can't. As it functions now, it's very slight and that's fine. It's more of a slap on the wrist for unoriginal play.

Either way it goes, I really don't mind if it stays the same, removed, whatever... but I really don't like the idea of making taunts do something game-play wise. It's there for fun/mind-games.

The entire idea behind a taunt is that you're making yourself vulnerable to attack for absolutely no gain to yourself. As soon as there's a reason for doing it, such as resetting the "stale moves" effect, it's no longer a taunt, it's a move.

Also, it takes away from the flair of using taunts. If you're playing to perfection, you'll do your taunt every chance you get. Not because you want to, but because it slighting increases the damage some of your overused moves do. You'll see taunts all the time. I think that'll take some of the appeal away from them.

Keep them useless and fun.

 

[A-Laon]

I think the "Stale Moves" mechanic is there for people who are learning how to play the game properly. It punishs people for spamming when the less experienced players they play against can't. As it functions now, it's very slight and that's fine. It's more of a slap on the wrist for unoriginal play.

Yep, that's definitely the counterpoint, though I'd have to say it doesn't really make a strong effort at doing even that. I doubt I could point out many instances in which the slight damage difference it creates would have any even remotely substantial impact on lesser-skill players' strategies. Regardless, just thought I'd reinforce the fact that although by principle I'm against this effect, I really don't care either way.

 

[BackItch]

I would agree that the "Stale Moves" effect is very slight at best, and does little to help the less experienced it's aimed at.

Usualy, the only way you can tell is when you look at the after-round bonuses and see "Stale Moves" on the list. When you're learning the game and see that, it should at least give you pause and make you think about using more creative moves. And if it does that, the "Stale Moves" effect is probably doing a good enough job.

A lot of tactics require spamming, like Marth's fair combos,

I don't think using the move 3 times in a row should render it "stale" because as you point out, some legit tactics do involve some level of "spamming". However, if you've just used Marth's F-Smash for the 6th time in a row, the game needs to give you a slap if nobody else in the room is gonna....

 

[Icy_Eagle]

I don't tend to ever really notice it, though I'm sure if it were removed I'd clearly feel a difference (those near-death-but-not-quite moments being replaced with solid kills, for example). Personally, I don't see any purpose for this effect, especially as it's detrimental to the previously mentioned spammy characters / combos by nature, and seeing as I've never really noticed it in the first place, I wouldn't miss it in its removal.

But if it would be removed you would maybe notice the difference and (possibly) don't like it.

 

[Eaode]

Why do people care? yes the damage of your move goes down slightly if you use it consecutively. but at the most it's like 3%. Marth does fine with his Fair combos as it is, the stale moves thing is there for beginners to realize they're spamming.

It's not like the effect continually increases forever untilthe move does no damage, and even if it did, just use another move!

 

[1048576]

I think that stale moves should be increased, but it should also be based on time since the move was last performed, instead of the present system whereby stale moves are judged based upon how many of the ten previous moves were the move in question. That way, Fox won't just be able to fire ten quick lazers and have his smash attacks revert to full power.

 

[WaterTails]

I like the effect (except when I spam!), teaches spammers a lesson... so keep it!

 

[phanna]

Since it seems at least several of the people in this thread don't understand it properly, I'll clarify:

Stale moves reduces the power of the same move when used consecutively. ANY other move resets the decay. It just punished the same move used without variation. If all you do is spam nair, it will get weaker to a certain point. If, however, you use any other move, then the first nair after that will be as good as new.

If people understood this, sorry, but some peoples comments seemed off-base.

As for my opinion, I think it should stay, and it needs no change.

 

[WaterTails]

Oh... I thought you had to do like 10 different moves or something!

 

[the problem]

Honestly i say they should stay, if you spam thats your choice if you overdue it its your fault and lets be honest here no one almost notices or cares about how much damage you did after so they might as well leave it.

 

[xeonoex]

Actually Phanna, Im not sure sure if its like that. Try to spam Samus's fully charged powershot 10 times, do a nair and try it again, I don't think it will do the full 25%. I would try it out to check, but my friend took the GC because he got Twilight Princess, so I have to wait for him to beat it or wait for a new shipment of Wiis. (It's really his GC, I just had it at my house forever because he never played it, and mine GC broke because my sister left the cd thing open and messed up the lens.)

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

*Becomes even more afraid of Falco*


O.O

 

[Kroy]

I really don't believe that it needs to be changed or altered in anyway considering how balanced the game is currently. I think it could prove a more useful deterant to spamming if it affected knockback more adversely, but the change isn't necessary.

And thank you backitch also. Generally in some games the taunt is semi-useful ( i.e. charges a special move), but smash says "you do this because you want to look cool". It's completely a showmanship tactic and is meant to be fun. I mean come on, fun is the only reason people play Bowser.

Off hand, Happy New Year!

 

[King_cobra3600]

I never knew what stale moves was....but anyways, they should change it a bit

 

[Red Exodus]

It's fine the way it is, this would be unnecessary it's easy to punish people for spamming anyway.

 

[airball]

Personally, I think the current effect from stale moves is too small to discourage anything. More penalizing is your opponent when they wreck you for being so predictible.

I think a better effect would be to increase the lag of the attack, as opposed to lessining the damage. Remember, what matters in smash in whether you get knocked off the edge, and many newbies are not fast enough to dodge a falco spamming fsmash across FD. If we make the attack take longer, it is ultimately more helpful to newbies than taking an attack from 18% to 16% after the 100th use in a row.

 

[Red Exodus]

I think it's fine because if they keep adding in these seemingly little hinderances they will all eventually add up to be a big problem, like plaque blocking the lumen of a blood vessel. I respect your opinions, I just don't agree.

 

[beebee]

It's fine the way it is, this would be unnecessary it's easy to punish people for spamming anyway.

That so true. Thats a punishment for spammers.

 

[Doraki]

I'd like to see something more than just reducing the damage it does, for example, having the stun time of the attack being also affected by it.
It could fix silly chaingrabbing and those silly broken combos that falco has.

"stale moves are judged based upon how many of the ten previous moves were the move in question."

almost.
the last successful move you used gets a decrease of 9% on its damage
the 2nd last gets -8%
the 3rd last gets -7%
...
the 9th last gets -1%

 

[Razed]

I'm with BackItch here, but the idea of a taunt refreshing the moves is brilliant! A use for taunting and a great but not broken effect! Great idea man

 

[Red Exodus]

I'd like to see something more than just reducing the damage it does, for example, having the stun time of the attack being also affected by it.
It could fix silly chaingrabbing and those silly broken combos that falco has.

"stale moves are judged based upon how many of the ten previous moves were the move in question."

almost.
the last successful move you used gets a decrease of 9% on its damage
the 2nd last gets -8%
the 3rd last gets -7%
...
the 9th last gets -1%

Way to kill a move that takes skill.

 

[T-major]

I didn't even know Melee had a stale move penalty.... I never noticed something like that before. that being said, I wouldn't care if it stayed the same or if they removed it. if they increased it however, I don't think I would like it... but you never know. also, keep taunts the way the are! Taints are ment for fun, not gameplay inhancement.

on a side note, Happy New Year!!

 

[Red Exodus]

The odd thing is, if you spam don't you follow a pattern? Well there's punishment the worst there is, if you spam you become predictable, unless you have mind games that ambuses the opponent right when they think they have your pattern, that also takes skill.

In short spammers = predictable.

I don't spam attacks, just so you know,but I've seen games that use this penalty it just dulls down gameplay especially if you are just playing for fun.

 

[Battousai780]

There's no point in changing it at all. I didn't even notice it before this thread, so obviously the change is very negligable.

 

[zerosin]

I don't think the effect should be taken off. First off, you're still racking up dmg and setting people up for a big kill; thus, fast fighters are still deadly despite the stale move effect. Second, it doesn't affect anything made for specific situations (e.g. spikes). Thirdly, I really don't care 'cuz I use several different moves anyway. The idea of taunts resetting is questionable, 'cuz if that affects really funny taunts (e.g. Young Link's milk drinking), I'm not for it. How I see it, you hate the stale move effect, just vary your attacks or something (of course, this is coming from a noobish player, so don't flame me please -___- ).

 

[xeonoex]

I don't hate it. It's just a little annoyance knowing your next fully charged shot is going to do 23% instead of 25%. If it wasn't changed at all, I wouldn't mind. I know its only 2% too, but its not like its discouraging spammers or anything, how many noobs actually look at the score and results anyways. If a lot of people at smash boards didn't know about it, noobs wouldn't either.

It would be nice if some changes were made to it, for example: (I'll use Samus's charge shot)
1. When on a slope, facing up, instead of shooting straight and just hitting the side, it should travel up with the slope.
2. If you barely hit an enemy, in the foot or hand or something, instead of getting the full 25% they should get like 5% and very slight knock back.
(Not charge shot related)
3. Knock back changes. Instead of the priority going to the most recent hit, it should be added to it, more like real life. Think baseball, with the ball being hit with the bat, and going much further than in previously would have, but if you get hit by Marths fsmash, then fly into a turnip, the knock back would be slightly reduced, an the turnip would go flying.

I know the changes will be more realistic, and the game does not need realism (most people wouldn't want Marth to be slicing his enemies in half), but there mostly to the physics engine.

Again, its not like any of the changes are needed at all, its just some thoughts. These changes don't concern me at all. My main concern is the game's speed being "Moderated." I thought Melee was good, and if anything a little to slow being played naturally(=no shuffling, wavedashing, and other advanced techs). I say that because thats how they expected us to play, and if these thing are removed along with the speed reduced, it would feel very slow.

And the taunt refreshing the moves isn't game breaking or necessary, and thats what I was going for with that idea. Of course, all the pro will use it to get that extra 3% on a few first slashes, but then again you still see them shuffling fairs and spamming SHL in the 5 seconds there enemies are dead, instead of them using attacks they don't need.

 

[Red Exodus]

Not everyone's taunts are the same, it would be suicide for someone to taunt with, say Y. Link or Mario, while his opponent is on the stage. Taunts should remain as taunts, used for fun.

 

[1048576]

I'd like to see something more than just reducing the damage it does, for example, having the stun time of the attack being also affected by it.
It could fix silly chaingrabbing and those silly broken combos that falco has.

"stale moves are judged based upon how many of the ten previous moves were the move in question."

almost.
the last successful move you used gets a decrease of 9% on its damage
the 2nd last gets -8%
the 3rd last gets -7%
...
the 9th last gets -1%

Fox's laser gets reduced to 0% damage

 

[Doraki]

no it gets down to 55% OF 3%, not 3%-45%.

 

[_Phloat_]

I think that the stale moves effect is not the big on the game as it stands, and I like it that way...
I mean look at the pros, when they kill someone, they just SHFFL all over the place, and attack the nothing....

So obviously they are not to concerned with it...

I think taunts are good where they are, if the opponent sees you taunting to regain 2 damage, he knows he would do the same...

But if he sees you taunting, clearly saying "you...got....owned...." they might make a hasty and angry charge....

So I think the taunts are more useful now than they would be if they reversed the stale moves....

But I think that this was a good idea, a purpose, not gamebreaking, but a purpose to the taunt...

I respect you opinion, but I disagree

 

[1048576]

no it gets down to 55% OF 3%, not 3%-45%.

Oh. My bad. The fact that the game deals damage in percents (for no reason) confused me.

 

[experiment111]

I dont rele see how weakening the attack each time u spam it wud help it would detract from the flow of the game. But I like wht is sed about some collisions being made more real so that characters momentums are changed instead of u flying off at a ridiculous angle but i dont mind if they keep it that way

 

[zerosin]

Of course, decreasing the dmg % doesn't affect such things as spikes, so those are still useful throughout the whole battle.

 

[Doraki]

doing shffls all over the place doesn't do anything about the damage deterioration, it doesn't weaken the moves, neither does spamming blaster between lives restore every other move's strengh.
Only moves that actually hit something can count in this thing.

 

[The Dark Lord Ganondorf]

I think the stale moves effect is absolutely fine as it is. There is absolutely no need to change it.

Also, leave the taunt alone. Taunting people should be its only purpose.

If anything should be changed, then they should have the option of turning it on or off, that way, you can decide before a match whether you want the stale moves effect or not. Then everyones happy.