The Official Chaingrabbing Thread.

[Rashid]

infinite grabs shouldn't be banned. just dont get grabbed and youll be fine.

Ice Climbers maybe, it's easy to desync them which prevents chain grabbing.

In DeDeDe's case.... "don't get grabbed"? Say that do DeDeDe HUGE grab range and good spotdodge.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

16 Ice Climbers (14 top8, 8 top4, 8 top2, 1 win) - 152.8 - 14

If they were truly broken, they'd be at the top.
Ice climbers ARE beatable, contrary to popular belief.

Who ever said they weren't? Their grab range is so terrible that if you space decently you're fine! IC's aren't really that much of a problem for me.

Also, not many people use them well so there is a great chance you're not going to play one more than once at a tournament. If more people used them then that placement that you posted would most like;y be up, so that is a bit misleading IMO.

 

[Master Raven]

infinite grabs shouldn't be banned. just dont get grabbed and youll be fine.

Play a pro DeDeDe and tell me how many times you got grabbed.

 

[mimic_king]

infinite grabs shouldn't be banned. just dont get grabbed and youll be fine. It may take a lot of practice, but you can do it

Happy now?

And yes, I have avoided a DeDeDe grab, but it was extremely ****ing hard and it only happened once, but it still happened, so theoretically infinites shouldn't be banned because they can be avoided, even though it is really hard.

 

[Barge]

How not to get grabbed
stay in air
use long range attacks
space
punish

 

[UltimateRazer]

Chaingrabs should not be banned by any means but infites should be limited to like 5.

Ex. - DDD infinite on the 5 characters and IC's.

Just limit the inescapable ones but not bann

 

[Barge]

Chaingrabs should not be banned by any means but infites should be limited to like 5.

Ex. - DDD infinite on the 5 characters and IC's.

Just limit the inescapable ones but not bann

See, this is whats stupid.
How would can you tell when a chain grab ends?

Jab them once then grab them again, it'd reset the grab count, no?
Plus IC's can still 0-death with 5 grabs.

 

[PKNintendo]

Here ya go: CG compilation
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=210530

 

[Korpocalypse]

is it known that falco has a standing cg on fox and wolf?

 

[UltimateRazer]

See, this is whats stupid.
How would can you tell when a chain grab ends?

Jab them once then grab them again, it'd reset the grab count, no?
Plus IC's can still 0-death with 5 grabs.

Ok. On the 5th grab, you have to smash, release, or throw. The IC's dthrow to nana fair and ice block would not be limited because its an attack,

The b throw by itself should be limited. 5 throws isn't always enough to kill.

 

[GofG]

Ok. On the 5th grab, you have to smash, release, or throw. The IC's dthrow to nana fair and ice block would not be limited because its an attack,

The b throw by itself should be limited. 5 throws isn't always enough to kill.

You aught to read Sirlin's article on "What should be banned". This kind of thinking falls apart immediately.

For your convenience, I have linked it here. http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned.html

 

[WITH]

Official Chaingrabbing Thread?
I love DDD's chaingrab and infinites since none of my friends know how to use him.

u must be fun to play against using infinites in friendlies against noob friends

be proud

 

[MorpheusVGX]

I still can't understand how people can defend chain grabbing... Chain grabbing ruins the game.. It is an abuse of a game design flaw.. We can only fix it by establishing rules against it.. Because there are always pigs that would do anything to win.. even use this cheap, gay and detestable maneuver ...
DDD's infinite grab must be banned.. or else ban the character itself.. what do you prefer?
Please, don't be silly. Don't ruin the competitive scene fighting in this way.. it is not funny. It is not interesting.. It shouldn't give any satisfaction on winning with this as a primary attack..
Infinites against a wall are fine.. If I were to host a tournament I would limit chain grabbing to 3 grabs and standing infinites of any kind would be banned.. When people cannot take the right path on their own.. law has to arise.. ¬¬
I may accept chain grabs that move around the stage because they are situational and you can try to stay in a good place to avoid it.. but seeing a 5 grab CG from edge to edge sickens me... I will never use that... I just don't get any satisfaction using that cheap crap.. My 1 cent..

 

[Barge]

I still can't understand how people can defend chain grabbing... Chain grabbing ruins the game.. It is an abuse of a game design flaw.. We can only fix it by establishing rules against it.. Because there are always pigs that would do anything to win.. even use this cheap, gay and detestable maneuver ...
DDD's infinite grab must be banned.. or else ban the character itself.. what do you prefer?
Please, don't be silly. Don't ruin the competitive scene fighting in this way.. it is not funny. It is not interesting.. It shouldn't give any satisfaction on winning with this as a primary attack..
Infinites against a wall are fine.. If I were to host a tournament I would limit chain grabbing to 3 grabs and standing infinites of any kind would be banned.. When people cannot take the right path on their own.. law has to arise.. ¬¬
I may accept chain grabs that move around the stage because they are situational and you can try to stay in a good place to avoid it.. but seeing a 5 grab CG from edge to edge sickens me... I will never use that... I just don't get any satisfaction using that cheap crap.. My 1 cent..

There's no such thing as cheap, only failing to get around something.

Chain grabs =/= Broken. Ice climbers have horrible grab range and it's not that hard to not get grabbed by them. Stay in the air and space.

Because there are always pigs that would do anything to win.. even use this cheap, gay and detestable maneuver

Duh, play to win, if you want to play with honor go play with your casual friends.

Don't ruin the competitive scene fighting in this way

No ones complaining about it in the competitive scene except those who have nothing to do with it.

 

[illinialex24]

This needed to be made...

 

[Vanill4]

There's no such thing as cheap, only failing to get around something.

Right, generally. And the solution here should be avoiding grabs as well as you can. But the problem is once you get grabbed, you literally cannot do anything. You can't DI out of it, and you can't mash out. Anything you do is equivalent to putting your controller down, and that's the biggest problem with standing infinites IMO.

I said more about it in an earlier post here.

 

[GofG]

Standing infinites are an incredible game-design problem, and demonstrate just how bad the Brawl game designers were. They should never have existed in the first place.

If you wanted to make Brawl more competitive by modifying the rules in ways that the pro-ban people are talking about, you might as well just play a game that doesn't have god-awful design, like SF 3rd Strike or Guilty Gear or Melee.

 

[Vanill4]

Standing infinites are an incredible game-design problem, and demonstrate just how bad the Brawl game designers were. They should never have existed in the first place.

If you wanted to make Brawl more competitive by modifying the rules in ways that the pro-ban people are talking about, you might as well just play a game that doesn't have god-awful design, like SF 3rd Strike or Guilty Gear or Melee.

Sure, I agree. I love Melee, but that's not the point. Why can't we ban standing infinites in Brawl if it's such awful game design? It's not broken in the sense of "ZOMG teh IC's win every tourney!" but it's just a game mechanic that no one needs to be a part of. It would make Brawl a better game, IMO. More fun (subjective, but who actually enjoys doing a standing infinite?), more competitive (more even matchups overall, but more importantly, you have influence in the gameplay), and I think it would be beneficial to Brawl's competitive lifespan.

Let's face it, as competitive, hardcore, and play to win as some of us may be, we're playing a competitive game. I'll tell you the truth: I play Melee at as high a level of play as I can because I love it. The game is **** fun, and it's **** fun at a competitive level. Brawl would be better without standing infinites, and more people would probably play it for a longer period of time. As it stands right now, I don't imagine the Brawl scene lasting as long as the Melee one. Not to say that Melee will last longer than Brawl (I wish xD), but that Brawl will not last for as many years as Melee did. We need to remember the play in play to win.

 

[M.K]

I still can't understand how people can defend chain grabbing... Chain grabbing ruins the game.. It is an abuse of a game design flaw.. We can only fix it by establishing rules against it.. Because there are always pigs that would do anything to win.. even use this cheap, gay and detestable maneuver ...
DDD's infinite grab must be banned.. or else ban the character itself.. what do you prefer?
Please, don't be silly. Don't ruin the competitive scene fighting in this way.. it is not funny. It is not interesting.. It shouldn't give any satisfaction on winning with this as a primary attack..
Infinites against a wall are fine.. If I were to host a tournament I would limit chain grabbing to 3 grabs and standing infinites of any kind would be banned.. When people cannot take the right path on their own.. law has to arise.. ¬¬
I may accept chain grabs that move around the stage because they are situational and you can try to stay in a good place to avoid it.. but seeing a 5 grab CG from edge to edge sickens me... I will never use that... I just don't get any satisfaction using that cheap crap.. My 1 cent..

You know, Zero Suit Samus has a 0-90% Down Smash Chain on Fox and similarly high chains on both Falco and Wolf. Do you hear anyone complaining about that? No. Why? Because it doesn't break the game.
These chain grabs don't break the game either. If, in fact, they DID break the game, the Ice Climbers, Dedede, and other minute Chain-grabbers would be lounging out on the top of the tier list.
But they aren't. Why? Because they also have several crippling faults that come with their chain grabs.
Ice Climbers - Terrifyingly abysmal grab range. Requirement of Nana for killer grabs.
It's not like the game DOES it for you. The Ice Climber's chain grab is very, very hard to do. There are 39 different timings that you must know for each character, and some characters break out quite easily. Learn to use those characters.
King Dedede beats 3 characters with standing infinites. Ok, can't use them. Learn a new character JUST IN CASE. It REALLY isn't that hard.
This is a tool to win. It's like banning Marth's tipper because OMFG CHEAP U CANT KILL ME LIKE THAT I DIE SO EARLY BWAAA.
Enforcing "limits" on chaingrabs is a terribly subjective idea. There would be chaos in the tournament scene about who did what and how "such-and such player" broke the rules by accidentally killing you with a grab. I'm against such "half-bans"
We play to win. We chaingrab to win.
Therefore, we chaingrab.

 

[Barge]

You know, Zero Suit Samus has a 0-90% Down Smash Chain on Fox and similarly high chains on both Falco and Wolf. Do you hear anyone complaining about that? No. Why? Because it doesn't break the game.
These chain grabs don't break the game either. If, in fact, they DID break the game, the Ice Climbers, Dedede, and other minute Chain-grabbers would be lounging out on the top of the tier list.
But they aren't. Why? Because they also have several crippling faults that come with their chain grabs.
Ice Climbers - Terrifyingly abysmal grab range. Requirement of Nana for killer grabs.
It's not like the game DOES it for you. The Ice Climber's chain grab is very, very hard to do. There are 39 different timings that you must know for each character, and some characters break out quite easily. Learn to use those characters.
King Dedede beats 3 characters with standing infinites. Ok, can't use them. Learn a new character JUST IN CASE. It REALLY isn't that hard.
This is a tool to win. It's like banning Marth's tipper because OMFG CHEAP U CANT KILL ME LIKE THAT I DIE SO EARLY BWAAA.
Enforcing "limits" on chaingrabs is a terribly subjective idea. There would be chaos in the tournament scene about who did what and how "such-and such player" broke the rules by accidentally killing you with a grab. I'm against such "half-bans"
We play to win. We chaingrab to win.
Therefore, we chaingrab.

Exactly, if you're constantly getting grabbed and chain grabbed by a certain character, counterpicking is a must. Ice climbers have many counter picks that are hard to grab, same with DDD, characters he can't infinite.

Don't complain, don't get grabbed, counter pick. The 3 major things to get around chain grabs (IMO)

 

[GofG]

Ice Climber's downsmash can do thirty nine percent. 39%. One attack. Why isn't anyone complaining about this?

Ganon can deal upwards of 60% if he can get a successful thunderstorm lock. Why isn't anyone complaining about that?

Lucas can jab-lock his opponent and infinite them if he does it correctly. All he needs is to land all four hits of a dair. Why isn't anyone complaining about that?

Or Falco's laser lock?

These are all extremely "cheap" attacks that do inordinate amounts of damage when compared to how easy they are to do, but no one is complaining about them! No one is even suggesting that they be banned! Without a wall, Falco's laser lock can deal a ton of damage, and all he has to do is mash B. Why is it only banned with a wall? The ice climbers can lock an enemy down for full minutes with their ice block lock. Why is this not banned?

Because it does not break the game! Why are you only complaining about certain "cheap" tactics? In my opinion, if you want to ban D3's chain grab or Falco's chain grab, you had better ban Lucas's jablock and the Ice Climber's ice block lock and Ganon's thunderstorming and the Ice Climber's downsmash.

 

[Barge]

Why would ice climbers down smash even thought of being banned, thats just a SWEETSPOT when both ice climbers hit. Just like zeldas lightning kick, or dair.

 

[Steeler]

This is a tool to win. It's like banning Marth's tipper because OMFG CHEAP U CANT KILL ME LIKE THAT I DIE SO EARLY BWAAA.

worst comparison i've ever seen

ic's dsmash comparison is bad too, as is ganon's thunderstorm.

 

[GofG]

Why would ice climbers down smash even thought of being banned, thats just a SWEETSPOT when both ice climbers hit. Just like zeldas lightning kick, or dair.

That was my point. It's absurd to think that it should be banned, and yet it does just as much damage as your average Falco chaingrab.

 

[M.K]

worst comparison i've ever seen

ic's dsmash comparison is bad too, as is ganon's thunderstorm.

Ok, dude, give us a better example then.
God, nothing annoys me more than when people are just like "Nope, sorry. No. No. No."

 

[Riku00]

it does not bothr me if someone uses chaingrabs becaus usually thats the only thing that they know how to do and i eventually end up winning in the end. sure it brings up your damage alot but if you cant escape a chaingrab and you get mad you really need to find a way around it and if you cant... well i dont know what to tell you just stop getting upset because ther are alot of chaingrabbers out there.

 

[Amarkov]

That was my point. It's absurd to think that it should be banned, and yet it does just as much damage as your average Falco chaingrab.

Nobody wants to ban Falco's chaingrabs. Seriously, I have never seen that proposed anywhere.

The problem is with the infinite chaingrabs. If any of the cursed five gets grabbed by a Dedede who knows how to chaingrab, they lose a stock. Unavoidable 0-60 is not even remotely the same as unavoidable 0-death.


And for anyone who wants to quote Sirlin at me:

Another principle to live by is to try to prevent the situation of a player saying "I knew exactly what the opponent was going to do, but there was absolutely no way to stop it or punish it."

 

[GofG]

You guys know, Sirlin is still alive. It's not like we are quoting Sun Tzu. I have his phone number. I say we call him up and get him to make a SWF account, study the situation for a day, and solve all our problems.

 

[sro2]

Chain grabs should be limited to a set number of throws. Noone wants to watch a match where all that happens is repeated chain grabs to 400%.

 

[LegendofLink]

What is everyone's problem with the already well established practice of counter-picking?
DK is an amazing character, but just like every character, he has his bad match-ups. Secondaries are essential to the competitive smasher (unless you main MK, but the you had better be really good with him to beat his neutral match-ups against players who put a lot of training into countering MK). So when a DK player is put up against a DDD player, what does he do? He simply uses a different character for that match, and switches back to DK later. It in no way decreases DK's viability as a tournament main.

 

[Barge]

Chain grabs should be limited to a set number of throws. Noone wants to watch a match where all that happens is repeated chain grabs to 400%.

Thats why the limit is 200-300% depending on the host...

 

[Frogsterking]

You guys know, Sirlin is still alive. It's not like we are quoting Sun Tzu. I have his phone number. I say we call him up and get him to make a SWF account, study the situation for a day, and solve all our problems.

O.O


That would be really cool...

 

[yummynbeefy]

pit can chain grab to about 40-50 on most characters dont forget about that one

 

[PKNintendo]

pit can chain grab to about 40-50 on most characters dont forget about that one

How so? Really?

 

[XxBlackxX]

pit can chain grab to about 40-50 on most characters dont forget about that one

DI says hi >_>
he has a minor fthrow cg, but it's up to 20 at most and can be avoided with DI.

 

[LegendofLink]

Actually, Pit's CG is even more complicated than the Ice Climber's. It involves arrow looping and repeatedly f-throwing the opponent into the arrows. It is really too much effort for too little effect.
Here's a link to the thread:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=209250

 

[yummynbeefy]

Chain grabs shouldn't be banned.
Anyone who says otherwise better give a good 15 page argument as to why.

Theres tons of ways to get around chain grabbing. And some characters are un-chain grabbable.


Edit: thanks for the sticky, btw.

this is coming from the guy who mains ice climbers

hmmmmmmmmmm

 

[Barge]

this is coming from the guy who mains ice climbers

hmmmmmmmmmm

Just because I main ice climbers doesn't mean I have bias.


Okay, I do but still.

 

[yummynbeefy]

Thats why the limit is 200-300% depending on the host...

200-300???????
thats wayyyy too high

more like 100 per stock imo

 

[yummynbeefy]

Just because I main ice climbers doesn't mean I have bias.


Okay, I do but still.

no offence to ice climber users like yourself but every ice climber user chain grabs or does cheap stuff while being grabbed like smashing or blizzard or something

and if you have proof that im wrong prove me wrong