Social The MKGD: The rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated

[warionumbah2]

That stage spike is pretty easy to tech since Bair isn't immediate. I'll probably go for Dair or Nair instead.

you mean moves that have less knockback than bair? Dair is crap to use off stage the move starts and ends too fast and nair won't always send them the way you want them to nor does it stage spike as hard as bair , if someone does tech you can punish with a shuttle loop on the way up and potentially get another stage spike. But by all means if you wanna use Dair of all things off stage go ahead.

 

[Oblivion129]

you mean moves that have less knockback than bair? Dair is crap to use off stage the move starts and ends too fast and nair won't always send them the way you want them to nor does it stage spike as hard as bair , if someone does tech you can punish with a shuttle loop on the way up and potentially get another stage spike. But by all means if you wanna use Dair of all things off stage go ahead.

After testing it out myself, it only works at low % and you'll pretty much have to stage-spike to get the most of it. But I found Nair could be just as useful since it ends faster so you have more time to react if they tech. Also, sourspot Nair does the same amount of damage as hitting with all 3 hits of Bair (7%) while sweetspot Nair does 10%.
At like 20%-50% you can Dair into Bair stage spike, Dair into footstool, Dair into Fair.

I guess it depends on tastes, since Bair can actually KO if it's not teched, while the other moves can lead up to more damage.
By the way, Stage spiking with Shuttle Loop? I haven't managed that in this sm4sh. It usually just sends them back up the stage. If there's a way to make it stage spike, that would be great.

 

[Katakiri]

Guys, I finally overcame my Sonic problem and I don't need a secondary. Yesterday I was forced into a game 3 character counter-pick situation where I would either lose as Mega Man again against his secondary or have to fight his Sonic as MK. The same Sonic that I had yet to beat in-tourney for 3 full sets in the past. MK pulled through in the most stressful match of my life. In that MU we just stay in the air when Sonic's close and only land to punish. It's not easy tho but it's not unwinnable. I've been trying to work aerial play into my onstage game for a little while now so it's nice to see it pay off. Stopping D-Air pressure to fast-fall into a grab is a really solid option for us.

I ended up losing to a Fox tho and taking 3rd out of 50+ entrants in the the tourney. I played kinda dumb in hindsight as I'm not used to the Fox MU. Especially with his newfound Jab Cancel combos. (We can hold down and shield and we get out into shield after about 3-4 jabs.)

But anyway, how does Luigi sound to everyone for this week's MU discussion?

 

[ItoI6]

where can i find videos of the tournaments you play in?

 

[warionumbah2]

That's music to my ****ing ears, I would also like to see a video so I replicate that tactic. Based off that match what ratio would you put the MU in now? I wouldn't mind doing the luigi MU he's been giving me trouble lately.

Just beat a solid luigi player on nintendo dojo will upload replays and use it in discussions. I started using dair camping more its really helpful against alot of high tiers.

 

[busken]

Yeah, I that's how I play @ Katakiri i champion dair pressure and tomahawks.

@ ItoI6 his youtube channel

 

[Katakiri]

where can i find videos of the tournaments you play in?

My youtube channel is the only place there's video of me that I know of and it's pretty out-dated to how I play now anyway, at least for singles. My region doesn't record tournaments often so I have to take the time to record my own sets as well as others' while I'm there. I'm taking the upcoming Saturday off to do something other than Smash but the next week I should have some videos to share.

That's music to my ****ing ears, I would also like to see a video so I replicate that tactic. Based off that match what ratio would you put the MU in now? I wouldn't mind doing the luigi MU he's been giving me trouble lately.

Just beat a solid luigi player on nintendo dojo will upload replays and use it in discussions. I started using dair camping more its really helpful against alot of high tiers.

I still don't think it's better than 60-40 Sonic. Sonic still KOs us too easily. I only managed to pull off the game by Reverse Shuttle Looping OoS after I shielded a Spin Dash. We were both at 100+% last stock for over a minute before I sealed the deal. One misstep and a B-Throw and I would have lost.

 

[warionumbah2]

16secs in for MK.

 

[Lavani]

I've been toying around with High-Speed Drill, and I found it shares Greninja's unfortunate recovery problem:

There's a small portion of the ledge (the same section other characters can wall jump/cling on) where Meta Knight can bounce off the ledge instead of grabbing it or sliding over it, and since it puts him in helpless it can be fatal; however, it's still possible to grab the ledge if you drift toward it after rebounding, so it doesn't have to be fatal if you know what to do if it happens, but it is something to be wary of. Just a heads-up.

 

[Oblivion129]

Guys, I finally overcame my Sonic problem and I don't need a secondary. Yesterday I was forced into a game 3 character counter-pick situation where I would either lose as Mega Man again against his secondary or have to fight his Sonic as MK. The same Sonic that I had yet to beat in-tourney for 3 full sets in the past. MK pulled through in the most stressful match of my life. In that MU we just stay in the air when Sonic's close and only land to punish. It's not easy tho but it's not unwinnable. I've been trying to work aerial play into my onstage game for a little while now so it's nice to see it pay off. Stopping D-Air pressure to fast-fall into a grab is a really solid option for us.

I ended up losing to a Fox tho and taking 3rd out of 50+ entrants in the the tourney. I played kinda dumb in hindsight as I'm not used to the Fox MU. Especially with his newfound Jab Cancel combos. (We can hold down and shield and we get out into shield after about 3-4 jabs.)

But anyway, how does Luigi sound to everyone for this week's MU discussion?

That's awesome! Great to see improvement.

I feel like Luigi would be a good MU discussion. Lucario is another that I'd like to discuss some time.

I've been toying around with High-Speed Drill, and I found it shares Greninja's unfortunate recovery problem:

There's a small portion of the ledge (the same section other characters can wall jump/cling on) where Meta Knight can bounce off the ledge instead of grabbing it or sliding over it, and since it puts him in helpless it can be fatal; however, it's still possible to grab the ledge if you drift toward it after rebounding, so it doesn't have to be fatal if you know what to do if it happens, but it is something to be wary of. Just a heads-up.

Damn. Another reason to not use it.

 

[warionumbah2]

Damn. Another reason to not use it.

Not a good show. tsk tsk

Easily MK best custom, you shouldn't go for the ledge you should go on/above stage if your opponent either: goes after you off stage or if the player is using someone with crap mobility or pathetic punish tools you should use it even if they're camping on the ledge.

I see potential in this custom, got a replay of using this against a Sheik its extremely useful to bypass projectile/zoning bullcrap. You cover so much ground with this damn thing, sadly its hard as hell to arrange custom matches so i only had 1 game with custom MK.

Its like a mini dragon rush. @ Lavani thanks for posting that, you saved me from SDing in the future.

 

[AmishTechnology]

I feel like Luigi would be a good MU discussion. Lucario is another that I'd like to discuss some time.

As someone else has mentioned before, we should follow the footsteps of the Falco board. They have the most impressive way of handling character MU discussion imo. They have some incredibly in-depth discussion for popular character MUs like Captain Falcon, complete with videos, frame data, Falcon-specific gimps, etc. Meta Knight is a character whose combos can be very character and percentage/rage-specific, so I'm sure we could have much to say for even random characters as the game and the board get older. With our current format, we're basically done discussing Sonic. Yet, Katakiri JUST mentioned that he's been having quite a breakthrough with the matchup. Still Sonic-favored, but not as much as our past discussion would have us believe. With Falco's MU format, we could still continue that discussion today in an appropriate forum topic.

Customs becoming mainstream for comp sounds cool and all, but seems Metaknight really doesn't have many good custom choices (and neither does Jigglypuff, blegh). Will this leave him behind, or is it not a huge deal since most characters primarily use the A button anyways? Also, customs-enabled play will not be replicable in For Glory, so my casual FG sessions will certainly not help me if customs become standard!

 

[busken]

As someone else has mentioned before, we should follow the footsteps of the Falco board. They have the most impressive way of handling character MU discussion imo. They have some incredibly in-depth discussion for popular character MUs like Captain Falcon, complete with videos, frame data, Falcon-specific gimps, etc. Meta Knight is a character whose combos can be very character and percentage/rage-specific, so I'm sure we could have much to say for even random characters as the game and the board get older. With our current format, we're basically done discussing Sonic. Yet, Katakiri JUST mentioned that he's been having quite a breakthrough with the matchup. Still Sonic-favored, but not as much as our past discussion would have us believe. With Falco's MU format, we could still continue that discussion today in an appropriate forum topic.

Customs becoming mainstream for comp sounds cool and all, but seems Metaknight really doesn't have many good custom choices (and neither does Jigglypuff, blegh). Will this leave him behind, or is it not a huge deal since most characters primarily use the A button anyways? Also, customs-enabled play will not be replicable in For Glory, so my casual FG sessions will certainly not help me if customs become standard!

To be honest, I really don't know. From what I can see, it's not likely MK's good MU's will be neutralized or negated by custom moves,but at the same time, the viability of them hasn't been set in stone for the latter statement to be true. It's shame how MK's customs are ultimately not as viable as his default move set.

 

[Oblivion129]

Not a good show. tsk tsk

Easily MK best custom, you shouldn't go for the ledge you should go on/above stage if your opponent either: goes after you off stage or if the player is using someone with crap mobility or pathetic punish tools you should use it even if they're camping on the ledge.

I see potential in this custom, got a replay of using this against a Sheik its extremely useful to bypass projectile/zoning bullcrap. You cover so much ground with this damn thing, sadly its hard as hell to arrange custom matches so i only had 1 game with custom MK.

Its like a mini dragon rush. @ Lavani thanks for posting that, you saved me from SDing in the future.

It bypasses projectiles like a mini Dragon Rush, eh? That could be useful but I still feel it's risky since you can't act out of it. Is the reward worth the risk? You might be on to something if it controls the stage well against Sonic or something.

As someone else has mentioned before, we should follow the footsteps of the Falco board. They have the most impressive way of handling character MU discussion imo. They have some incredibly in-depth discussion for popular character MUs like Captain Falcon, complete with videos, frame data, Falcon-specific gimps, etc. Meta Knight is a character whose combos can be very character and percentage/rage-specific, so I'm sure we could have much to say for even random characters as the game and the board get older. With our current format, we're basically done discussing Sonic. Yet, Katakiri JUST mentioned that he's been having quite a breakthrough with the matchup. Still Sonic-favored, but not as much as our past discussion would have us believe. With Falco's MU format, we could still continue that discussion today in an appropriate forum topic.

Customs becoming mainstream for comp sounds cool and all, but seems Metaknight really doesn't have many good custom choices (and neither does Jigglypuff, blegh). Will this leave him behind, or is it not a huge deal since most characters primarily use the A button anyways? Also, customs-enabled play will not be replicable in For Glory, so my casual FG sessions will certainly not help me if customs become standard!

I agree with having the MUs as a forum topic in order to continue with info for over a week. It also helps us have some info on all characters without having to wait for like 50 weeks and cover all characters.

On the topic of customs:
Some characters like Ike have better customs than regular specials, but overall playstyle doesn't change much. There CAN be a mention of a MU with a popular custom set, or a mention of what the custom specials do.
For a character like Palutena, though, Super Speed and Light Weight custom set should be discussed along with her regular specials.

 

[V23]

reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2w7c1z/if_you_still_think_metaknight_sucks_on_sm4sh_let/

come! show your support!

 

[warionumbah2]

Too many morons on the same page, i'm unable to take reddit seriously nor anyone seriously when they call MK 'bad' without legit reasons other than the same old 'muh range and swoosh effect nut matchin the hitbox'.

On the customs MU discussion, i think Palutina,Ganondorf,DK will tip into their favour however DK and Ganondorf already have a slight advantage against MK in the first place. Maybe Bowser will make the MU close to even as well as Charizard. Maybe.

MU's that will get better for us are Sheik,Luigi,Link,Tink,MM etc etc because we now have a not so good dragon rush custom that allows us to plow through their projectiles. Like Oblivion said specials change but not overall playstyle, i think that's important to take into account other than Palutina customs don't completely rework their overall playstyle.

Some characters customs are crap though and change absolutely nothing. This is all theorycraft though since i have yet to play anyone with customs other than Sheik. Due to how slow the custom meta is rolling i don't think custom MU's matter.

The upvote/downvote system honestly makes productive discussion impossible in any remotely big subreddit. The big ones are to see news and funny pictures, the small, obscure subreddits are where you can actually talk and argue an unpopular position/opinion without getting downvoted to oblivion yet being provided no retorts.

That's why i never step foot into that site, its a complete joke that site is where all the false information comes from. Non of our input would matter due to the downvote system and as you said logical discussion is impossible and if you avoid the cluster **** you'll get no replies, if they wanna discuss MK and find out if he's 'bad' or not they can make a SB account and simply ask questions in the QA thread. But you know that would make too much sense lml.

 

[AmishTechnology]

Too many morons on the same page, i'm unable to take reddit seriously nor anyone seriously when they call MK 'bad' without legit reasons other than the same old 'muh range and swoosh effect nut matchin the hitbox'.

The upvote/downvote system honestly makes productive discussion impossible in any remotely big subreddit. The big ones are to see news and funny pictures, the small, obscure subreddits are where you can actually talk and argue an unpopular position/opinion without getting downvoted to oblivion yet being provided no retorts.

 

[Ultinarok]

Been playing a lot of MK in Smash 4, and I honestly like him better than Brawl MK.

I guess the best way I can explain it is:

Brawl MK (and Falco) were good for all the wrong reasons. MK was blatantly unfair, having stupidly good frame data, excessive advantages in range and priority, and was just infuriating to fight against. A very cool character idea was done in such a broken way that you felt like an a**hole for using him, and it never felt good to win.

His b moves all sucked at killing minus SL, yet were all very good for the wrong reasons. Tornado was easy to SDI but was insanely cheap and completely safe against EVERYTHING. DC allowed for infinite ledge camping (total BS). SL killed SUPER early for no particular reason AND allowed him to glide. He had four specials all stupidly good for recovery but powerful offensively in all the wrong ways. We got an overpowered Up-B, an insanely cheap no-compromise Nado, a decent rushdown side B and a Down B only good for making people angry (because it couldn't kill anything), on top of standards that outspaced and outprioritized every other attack in the game. Oh, and he could kill below 100% with some very lagless moves.

So when everyone says that they ruined MK, I laugh, because the only thing they ruined about him is that they made him a fair character, powerful in the RIGHT ways, who performs as a character like him was intended.

MK was never about being the end-all of priority and spammy damaging attacks. MK is about combos, precision, fearsome edgeguarding, applying pressure near the blast zones for early KOs, and using his diverse specials in specific scenarios to allow for free damage or KOs. He is a glass cannon that needs many hits to build damage, but KOs early with the right moves and can force opponents into unfavorable situations whenever he is on the attack. MK is solid in good hands but cannot win by just mashing the B button and flying around. His attack speed is offset by a need to put himself up close and personal, in harms way, but when he lands hit after hit, his reward is fair, for both him and his opponent.

MK shouldn't have Marth-level spacing. He shouldn't have Ike-level power either. MK, by design, is clearly meant to be light, fast, good at rushdown, unpredictable in the air, and meant to use weak, lightning-fast attacks over powerful, well-spaced ones. People complain about his range, but it REALLY isn't that bad. He SHOULD have less range than Marth or Ike, because his sword and arms are shorter. MK SHOULD want to be very close, because that's where he functions as a glass cannon.

Nothing about this new MK is cheap, nor does anything make you feel dirty for using him. His smash attacks are where his kill power is at, as it should be, with his other moves focusing on speed. MK kills more easily but must commit and punish more to do it because his kill moves have more lag than his non-kill moves, as it SHOULD BE.

Nado is harder to land, easier to punish and lower in priority, but is now more rewarded when it connects with a guaranteed 19-20% and an early kill if used above the stage. Side B is more than just for show now and can actually function as a roll punish. Up B is now a powerful kill move that requires accuracy and has a downside (no gliding, leaves him helpless) that makes it better at finishing stocks but riskier to throw around constantly. And down B, thanks to new game mechanics and a huge power buff, is a very satisfying, unpredictable KO option that requires immense skill to land.

MK now separates the men from the boys. He is not a quick answer for winning tournaments. He requires practice and smart play. But he performs as he's meant to. Effective when played well and poor when played poorly. I've dedicated myself to becoming more skilled with MK, and the payoff has been far greater in terms of satisfaction than in Brawl. He's not shutting out the entire roster anymore, but he is a balanced character and fights in a fair manner. Hell, I don't even mind the hitbox/animation problems because I barely notice them. He is consistent enough that you know when a move will connect and when it won't.

Easily in my top 10 favorite fighters.

 

[AmishTechnology]

I hadn't considered using Side B as a roll punish. Just seems like such a scary move to whiff for only 9% or so.

What are MK's best moves for deflecting Gordo's? N-Air? Seems to have a very small window where it's active before the gordo just hits you lol, and in wi-fi the move sometimes is too slow to reflect it? Fighting Bowser Jr online is tough too, you can't just stand-grab his bomb robots because of wi-fi and approaching him, you often have to go in the air and I don't really think highly of MK approaching aerially.

I do like this character and he's been my main for a while now (switched from Rosalina). That being said, he takes so much effort and sometimes when I'm really frustrated I just go back to Jiggs, which is a bit of a 50/50 on whether the MU becomes easier or even harder. Rosalina is extremely powerful in the correct MU, but I just couldn't bear her slower playstyle and sans-Luma play.

 

[Emuser012]

Hi again all,

I introduced myself a few weeks ago but still haven't posted much, but I've gone to a number of meetups and tourneys and sticking solely to Meta Knight is finally starting to pay off big time. Last week I finished in top 8 out of 32 in one tourney, and then last night I finished 4th out of 32. I beat one of the higher ranked guys in an epic Meta Knight vs Sheik matchup that ended with us both flying off the stage on opposite ends and him dying before me on our last lives in 3rd match. That was the moment I knew that I was in for a good night since people know me now and I still get remarks during matches from things I do that surprise the other person along the lines of "wow that's fast, I didn't know that could kill!, Meta Knight is scary" At the end of the night I ended up getting some shoutouts from our group so that felt really good.

I love this character in Smash 4 for the same reasons above, I wanted to main him the moment I saw the trailer in Brawl, but he turned out to be so overpowered that it was just stupid to even play that game. Fast forward to Smash 4, he got toned down and I messed around with him at launch literally losing 20 for glory matches in a row trying to see how he's changed. Ever since then I've stuck to him and even dropped my original plan to main Luigi because I found it fascinating to work with changed tools where you actually had to apply yourself and think to win, making victories all the more satisfying.

Initially I had concerns because of most people screaming bloody hell about how the good Knight got nerfed severely since Brawl, something I expected going into this game, but the longer I spent time with him, the more I realized that there is some serious risk/reward going on with Meta Knight. He still has several kill moves, he can still gimp off stage and get back without too many issues, and he has a damn punishing...punish game. The thing that has changed since Brawl though is that there is actual risk landing some of these moves, but if you do you are rewarded greatly. He got toned down from being a broken monster to a redefined character that I feel people are seriously sleeping on.

Concerning DDD and Gordos:
Nair is pretty much the only reasonable answer Meta Knight has for a Gordo, thankfully even the weak hit of the Nair will deflect it. There are so far only two Dededes I run into here that can beat me, one has stopped trying to send a Gordo straight at me most of the time. The other I finally got to play yesterday but hasn't figured out to stop using them so often so I got a fairly easy 2-0 several rounds into the tourney. Just be careful about the situation as Nair does have landing lag unless you immediately use it after starting a full hop. I personally wait out the Gordo if it is bouncing in place next to DDD or make sure to full hop Nair since they can punish your landing if they are expecting you to try hitting it back and shield your Nair + Gordo.

Currently I am looking into some secondary character to pick up for some of the matchups that are making my head scratch, mainly Villager, Pikachu and Sonic. Over the past month these three have just been brutal.

 

[V23]

Been playing a lot of MK in Smash 4, and I honestly like him better than Brawl MK.

I guess the best way I can explain it is:

Brawl MK (and Falco) were good for all the wrong reasons. MK was blatantly unfair, having stupidly good frame data, excessive advantages in range and priority, and was just infuriating to fight against. A very cool character idea was done in such a broken way that you felt like an a**hole for using him, and it never felt good to win.

His b moves all sucked at killing minus SL, yet were all very good for the wrong reasons. Tornado was easy to SDI but was insanely cheap and completely safe against EVERYTHING. DC allowed for infinite ledge camping (total BS). SL killed SUPER early for no particular reason AND allowed him to glide. He had four specials all stupidly good for recovery but powerful offensively in all the wrong ways. We got an overpowered Up-B, an insanely cheap no-compromise Nado, a decent rushdown side B and a Down B only good for making people angry (because it couldn't kill anything), on top of standards that outspaced and outprioritized every other attack in the game. Oh, and he could kill below 100% with some very lagless moves.

So when everyone says that they ruined MK, I laugh, because the only thing they ruined about him is that they made him a fair character, powerful in the RIGHT ways, who performs as a character like him was intended.

MK was never about being the end-all of priority and spammy damaging attacks. MK is about combos, precision, fearsome edgeguarding, applying pressure near the blast zones for early KOs, and using his diverse specials in specific scenarios to allow for free damage or KOs. He is a glass cannon that needs many hits to build damage, but KOs early with the right moves and can force opponents into unfavorable situations whenever he is on the attack. MK is solid in good hands but cannot win by just mashing the B button and flying around. His attack speed is offset by a need to put himself up close and personal, in harms way, but when he lands hit after hit, his reward is fair, for both him and his opponent.

MK shouldn't have Marth-level spacing. He shouldn't have Ike-level power either. MK, by design, is clearly meant to be light, fast, good at rushdown, unpredictable in the air, and meant to use weak, lightning-fast attacks over powerful, well-spaced ones. People complain about his range, but it REALLY isn't that bad. He SHOULD have less range than Marth or Ike, because his sword and arms are shorter. MK SHOULD want to be very close, because that's where he functions as a glass cannon.

Nothing about this new MK is cheap, nor does anything make you feel dirty for using him. His smash attacks are where his kill power is at, as it should be, with his other moves focusing on speed. MK kills more easily but must commit and punish more to do it because his kill moves have more lag than his non-kill moves, as it SHOULD BE.

Nado is harder to land, easier to punish and lower in priority, but is now more rewarded when it connects with a guaranteed 19-20% and an early kill if used above the stage. Side B is more than just for show now and can actually function as a roll punish. Up B is now a powerful kill move that requires accuracy and has a downside (no gliding, leaves him helpless) that makes it better at finishing stocks but riskier to throw around constantly. And down B, thanks to new game mechanics and a huge power buff, is a very satisfying, unpredictable KO option that requires immense skill to land.

MK now separates the men from the boys. He is not a quick answer for winning tournaments. He requires practice and smart play. But he performs as he's meant to. Effective when played well and poor when played poorly. I've dedicated myself to becoming more skilled with MK, and the payoff has been far greater in terms of satisfaction than in Brawl. He's not shutting out the entire roster anymore, but he is a balanced character and fights in a fair manner. Hell, I don't even mind the hitbox/animation problems because I barely notice them. He is consistent enough that you know when a move will connect and when it won't.

Easily in my top 10 favorite fighters.

dude. ty. that post. just....ty!
i so want to post it on reddit!

 

[ILOVESMASH]

I really enjoy using Meta Knight in this game. He's got a lot of great traits that make him an all around great character (kill setups, good dash speed, solid aerials, etc.).

I feel Meta Knight is a lot more Ground based than he was in brawl, as the range and speed of his aerials have been nerfed significantly, his jump height has been nerfed, and gliding is no longer present. His air game isn't terrible however, as he can still juggle characters with his uair and edgegaurd people with his bair, fair and nair.

His ground game however is where he shines best. Meta knight has amazing grabs and followup options from his grabs, a good dash attack, good OOS options in his tornado and SL, and 3 great finishers in his F-Smash, DC, and SL.

My biggest issue with Meta Knight is the poor range of his sword. If its range was better, meta knight would easily be top 5.

 

[Sol0ke]

Why increase MK's size but decrease his range at the same time I'll never know

 

[warionumbah2]

Maybe cuz I don't know, it makes sense that a short puff ball with a short sword would have short range. For real what did you expect shulk and marth like range?

MK is a combo heavy character with disjoints, he doesn't space with any of his moves that involves his sword. Everything about MK goes against a typical sword user.

I can understand why range is bought up frequently since other than his weight there's not many cons to bring up. Range? disjoints.Low damage per hit? Mach tornado.

Which MU should we tackle next? The luigi boards seem to agree with the ratio and reasoning, of course it will have to be the relevant characters or high tiers.

Currently I am looking into some secondary character to pick up for some of the matchups that are making my head scratch, mainly Villager, Pikachu and Sonic. Over the past month these three have just been brutal.

MK does really well against villager, he can zone break him easily at mid range and obliterate him off stage although villagers recovery is insane. Our Utilt beats his dair and our uair beats his nair so other than airdodging he has no way of escaping uair strings, heck lately I've noticed that airdodging is impossible if the MK user times his uair properly.

Pikachu is even imo. And sonic can burn in hell. >:/

Edit: MK can deflect gordos using dash attack by the way, he's the second most intimidating heavy weight but ganon remains the toughest heavy to fight and I think he's the only heavy weight with an adventurous MU on us.

EDIT EVEN HARDER: MK has the 6th strongest Up Smash in terms of KB, he has the 5th best roll in the game, 9th fastest dash,the most jumps in the game, fastest Dtilt and one of the best DA/DG in the game. (o_o )

 

[Emuser012]

Huh, interesting. I was experimenting more against the Gordo just now, it turns out FSmash isn't too bad and DSmash is strong enough to do it as well. Funny enough, USmash will also hit it back. I didn't know dash attack worked as well, that changes things up a bit.

That thing isn't as hard to hit back as I thought.

 

[Lavani]

A tip about Gordos, their hitbox shrinks every 30 frames (1/2 second). The later you try to hit them, the easier it gets to cleanly reflect them instead of accidentally trading.

 

[warionumbah2]

I'm starting to hit the lab myself after seeing those combo's ItoI6 posted , I can only pull off the forward throw --> dash attack --> u smash --> uair --> footstool into ff nair on Falcon i haven't tried other characters around his weight/fall speed class.

Forward throw needs to be used more now, the opponent is in hit stun less making it harder to combo BUT its much more rewarding than down throw damage wise. A fresh forward throw to u-smash does 18% on Mario and you can even follow up with grounded SL which gives us 30%. The first 2 are true combo's but i'm confident that the SL can connect on a human player.

Also put tap jump on, it makes footstooling easier,OOS SL easier and as Oblivion said in the video thread it gives more height to SL since when you input up B MK jumps first then activates SL.

Then i go back a few pages and find this gem.

Always a treat to see new faces around here. We definitely need a larger player-base to get the ball rolling for MK so the more the merrier!


That actually reminds me that I created a little cheat sheet for MK's combos a while back but never posted it. Granted, most are not true combos due to DI but they works for most of the cast if you add or subtract percent based on character weight (Sheik was the test dummy here):

0% Combos:
D-Throw > SH N-Air 17%
D-Throw > Dash Attack > Up-Smash 17-22% (Character specific)
D-Throw > Mach Tornado (Character specific)
Dash Attack > Up-Smash 15%
Dash Attack > SH Nado? 26% (Character specific)

0% to 90+% (AKA Bread & Butter AKA MK's Diddy Kong D-Throw>Up-Air)
F-Throw > Aerial Shuttle Loop 21% (KOs at later %s)
*F-Throw comes out on frame 4 after a grab so, unlike D-Throw, DIing the throw is very unlikely!*
**F-Throw while it has less knockback (good for combos) and more damage, it has less hitstun than D-Throw. So make those inputs quick**

35~% (KO Percent)
F-Throw > FH Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Aerial Shuttle Loop 36%
Down-Throw > FH Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Aerial Shuttle Loop 34%
F-Throw > FH Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Air Dodge > Mach Tornado 44+%
Down-Throw > FH Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Wait > Air Dodge > Mach Tornado 42+%
Down-Throw > FH Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Aerial Shuttle Loop (KO Combo)
Up-Tilt > FH Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Aerial Shuttle Loop (KO Combo)
Up-Tilt > FH Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Aerial Shuttle Loop 32%

40~%
F-Throw > SH Mach Tornado 28~%

50~%
SH D-Air > Mach Tornado 26~%

84~% (KO Percent)
Dash Attack > FH Shuttle Loop (KO Combo)

90~% (KO Percent)
F-Throw > Incorrect/No DI > FH Shuttle Loop (KO Combo)
Up-Tilt > Incorrect/No DI > FH Shuttle Loop (KO Combo)

101% to 130% (KO Percent)
D-Tilt > Missed Tech > Dimensional Cape Slash (KO Combo)
D-Tilt > Grounded Up-B (KO Combo)
D-Tilt > Tech-in-place > Mach Tornado

Single Move KO% (Off-top, no Rage required):
Grounded Shuttle Loop KO Percent: 98%
Forward Dimensional Cape Slash KO Percent: 107%
Up-Smash: 108%
Up-Throw KO Percent: 156%

Red = A likely opponent input
Obviously anything with red isn't a real combo but I listed them because, unless the opponent is experienced with MK, they're very likely to make the input or lack-thereof required to make the combo happen.

I'll go more in-depth on all of those combos in a guide I'm writing soon.

@ Lavani based lavaknee do you know the start up frames for high speed drill? Asked on the competitve thread but they were kind enough to Ignore me.

I'll get back to you on that in ~10min

EDIT: First active frame is 22f.

And Drill Rush starts at 25f. So not only does High Speed cover more ground at a faster rate(over half of FD) but also starts faster.

Normal Drill however is good for stage spikes but overall i feel High Speed Drill is great against the majority of MU. Played DDD and R.O.B using these customs, everytime he sent out a gyro i blitzed him with HSD and sometimes bounce off the gyro making it hard to punish me.

This also makes the Rosalina MU even easier despite her customs being good, since we now have a faster drill that is safe and rewarding as hell against her. Ontop of that, its good to use in neutral for a surprise attack.

If this **** beats Luma shot then good lawd.

And don't even get me started on projectile and zone characters, we can beat out all weak projectiles and they won't be able to react.

MK CUSTOM HYPE!!

Only custom that isnt crap.

 

[Lavani]

@ Lavani based lavaknee do you know the start up frames for high speed drill? Asked on the competitve thread but they were kind enough to Ignore me.

I'll get back to you on that in ~10min

EDIT: First active frame is 22f.

 

[Emuser012]

I'm loving forward throw as an option at higher percents. I've been able to snag quite a few number of free kills with Fthrow-->SL because they failed to DI the Fthrow due to the sheer speed that you can grab, throw, then SL after.

 

[ItoI6]

you can only get down fast enough to dtilt lock on slow-medium falling characters reliably like sonic and rosalina, and if theyre too floaty like kirby when you dash attack-uair footstool they dont actually reach the ground before the hitstun from the footstool is still active so it essentially does nothing vs ultra floaties and you dont get anything. on the other end of the spectrum i think fox gets up so fast you cant even get a nair on him before he can move. im pretty sure diddy does get dtilt locked if you are like frame perfect but i think it actually doesnt work on falcon because he gets up too quick, and you should just sweetspot nair both of them if you get footstool anyways. Either that or just land next to them and try and tech chase. if you want to try and get it to work at all try it on olimar or ness with the ending hitbox of dash attack-fullhop uair-footstool at 0% and it should be very easy to get down in time to get a lock started.

and the main reason i have tap jump on is upb oos even though it makes it hard to do fullhop upair without accidentally double jumping immediately after leaving the ground for me lol. something i think is pretty effective if you have a stock lead is camping the sv platform by literally just holding shield as the platform travels across the stage threatening upb oos against anything misspaced, and when it reaches the other side you dair camp/charge fsmashes and let your shield recharge until it starts moving over the stage again. i think little mac and maybe some other characters with non-threatening or telegraphed air moves are just totally ****ed against this strat

 

[Funkermonster]

Just got me a MK Amiibo, and I'm soooo lucky. Aside from some smudges on his mask (although, I do think they make his mask look a little ancient), his figurine is top-notch in my opinion and I love what they did with it.

Anyone one else get one?

 

[Zonez]

Just got me a MK Amiibo, and I'm soooo lucky. Aside from some smudges on his mask (although, I do think they make his mask look a little ancient), his figurine is top-notch in my opinion and I love what they did with it.

Anyone one else get one?

I want to get one but I don't want to spend 50 dollars on ebay for one. Also don't want to give money to scalpers, but I might as well considering if I don't do it someone will.

It really sucks that Nintendo just doesn't seem to care about supplying enough amiibos so this doesn't happen.

 

[Funkermonster]

I want to get one but I don't want to spend 50 dollars on ebay for one. Also don't want to give money to scalpers, but I might as well considering if I don't do it someone will.

It really sucks that Nintendo just doesn't seem to care about supplying enough amiibos so this doesn't happen.

President Iwata said the amiibo shortage is actually because of the West Coast port strike, so not all of them have even hit even retailers. A lot of amiibo are probably still on the docks or haven't even left Japan yet. And until the strike ends, amiibo supply is going to continue being low, I'm afraid. Once it does end though, I'm pretty sure MK and al the other rare ones will be restocked and we'll get another chance for them.

This doesn't affect their games though, copies of their brand new console/handheld games are fairly lightweight, and can be shipped easily by being delivered by planes. Amiibo, as well as the Brand New Nintendo 3DS, are apparently too heavy for planes, and can only be shipped by boat, being affected by the strike.

 

[Deleted member]

Just got me a MK Amiibo, and I'm soooo lucky. Aside from some smudges on his mask (although, I do think they make his mask look a little ancient), his figurine is top-notch in my opinion and I love what they did with it.

Anyone one else get one?

I got one as well. Now all I have to do is wait for a Greninja one and I'll have both of my mains.

 

[warionumbah2]

Got a ton of matches with customs WITH NO LAG(finally), i went with the 1211 set against Fox(2331),Falco(3213),Ludwig(3322),Samus(2232) and also Wave Dash Bowser,Mario,Windy Kong and Ganondorf in his glory.

Spoiler

becomes somewhat harder to gimp with the Wolf custom but easy to get if he recovers low although his twisting Fox custom has insane KB, the MU isn't any different tbh HSD beats his lasers too.

is definitely not a threat its like Oblivion said alot of characters playstyle remain the same, his custom i faced against were underwhelming and doesn't help him gain the upper hand against MK while we on the other hand have 1 custom thats useful in all MU.

For its the same problem as Falco, maybe the customs are good against certain characters but MK practically invalidates some of these sets with default alone.

customs are great. But despite her charge shot being able to hover over the ledge, it doesn't hinder MK recovery at all. We got 6 jumps to stall and DC to teleport behind her. It improves her strengths but her weaknesses are left untouch, HSD eats her missles and its extremely useful to use in neutral no matter the MU.

Only custom that threw me off was the wave dash claw, but the power on that thing is pathetic. I think DA beats it out i know for a fact HSD beats it. Once again the MU is no different than before.

is a monster, although he didn't play DK well i could tell his customs will give MK trouble. There's no point on chasing him off stage.

cannot force us to approach if we get the lead, i was literally jumping and HSDling at him while he was trying to snipe me with fast fire ball. His custom uppercut is great OOS but sucks as a recovery unlike our SL. MU is no different than before.


is so stupid, now its hard(not impossible) to edgeguard. I think default Ganon is better against MK because his custom down b where he jumps up and drop kick sucks in neutral and his side b although powerful lacked the range to make me fear him. Custom Ganon is actually easy to handle unlike his Default set(his custom up B is good though, default moves with that recovery will make him our 2nd worst MU imo).

HSD is great to use after zoning people out with dair, its a good surprise attack for an easy 7%. Its unsafe on shield but its still better than his other customs,it makes MU like Rosalina a walk in the park.

I also played . I think its heavily in our favour, easy to juggle and gimp. All while having disjointed hitboxes. I don't see the charm in this character, i'll arrange more matches against it to give further input.

Edit: Just spoke to my friend via skype and he said MK is low mid or mid tier. Then i realize how much in common MK has with the best characters in the game, there's literally nothing(other than range) that's holding him back from being top15 in the game.

/the end

 

[Katakiri]

My entire problem with High Speed Drill is that if someone hits you out of Mach Tornado while you're moving left or right hammering on the B button, you die. You fat-fingered a forward-reaching Shuttle Loop and hit side-b instead, you're dead. In both tourneys that I tried it, HSD cost me at least a stock or two. I do think it's our best Drill but I really don't like MK having a self-destruct input on a button we're constantly pressing for other attacks.

Guess I need to get used to it tho since I'm gonna need it.

Spoiler

On another note, the Luigi MU discussion turned out really well! I'm hoping to get the MU Directory thread up if I can pull myself away from Monster Hunter long enough to do it.
Is there any particular MU you guys would like to discuss next?

 

[ItoI6]

got 2nd and lost to a sonic at cotu vii...

it was 0-2 in 2nd set of gf and i went back to diddy for the first time that tourney and still lost the set 2-3 in the end. i played really bad but it still seemed like a terrible matchup tbh. on the plus side i beat im hip who is ranked 13th in socal atm with solo mk 3-1ing his olimar, seemed much easier than when i went diddy and was really free for mk.

mk is worse than top tiers because his neutral isnt as good without the autocancel shorthop stuff like sheik and diddy have. im not giving up yet but its really discouraging to lose something i know i couldve won if i had gone diddy from the start.

oh and also doubles i got 1st with phoenix the sonic main who got 1st in singles at the tourney, mk feels really strong in teams so even if i think i cant do it with mk there ill still probably use him in teams, hes just way too godlike at getting upb pickup kills off of stuff from your partner and neutral game matters a whole lot less.

i thought it was gonna be stacked but actually everyone went to a bigger tourney in vegas so really only a few good people were there, heres some stuff from the tourney

http://www.twitch.tv/tloccpu/b/627975294

@ 1:59:48 - the last game of doubles gf

@ 3:00:02 - the most crushing victory in tourney ive ever had lol

@ 3:56:30 vs im hip's olimar - started off close game 1 then it just got worse and worse lol...played it like it was brawl mk and camped, olimar cant do **** if you have a lead on sv. last game on fd it just kind of got away from him.

@ 5:01:40 vs Phoenix's sonic - i think i just came into this match with a totally wrong mindset from having platform camping being so effective vs olimar. hint...it doesnt work vs sonic lol. and dash attack as an approach was just really bad as well, and with the momentum being so bad everything just wasnt working, he kept falling out of upb and never dieing, got a super lame backthrow kill at 60% on the sv platform and nothing went my way. still thinking about what i couldve done idk. happy for him though he's #4 in san diego atm behind me, tearbear, and falln and is better than several people on the actual socal pr tbh, so its good he got a nice singles win for once.

 

[warionumbah2]

His neutral isn't as good as Sheik's neutral, but 6 jumps + great dash attack/grab + great ground mobility is basically all you need to play a good neutral game. It's hard to get Meta Knight to mess up. It's also hard to projectile camp him due to his size (in addition to those 6 jumps). Definitely one of the better neutrals in the game.

Once you get out of the "must have good short hop aerial" mentality, some characters like Greninja and Meta Knight really open up in neutral. -Solidsense

SH aerials don't = good neutral.

How about Zero Suit Samus or Diddy Kong for this week's match up discussion? ZSS sounds a little more interesting IMO.

i like you, aim for the best screw the rest!

Super Smash bros Edit Edition: Just looked at the community list and MK is rock bottom, absolutely adorable.

 

[Deleted member]

How about Zero Suit Samus or Diddy Kong for this week's match up discussion? ZSS sounds a little more interesting IMO.

 

[Oblivion129]

got 2nd and lost to a sonic at cotu vii...

it was 0-2 in 2nd set of gf and i went back to diddy for the first time that tourney and still lost the set 2-3 in the end. i played really bad but it still seemed like a terrible matchup tbh. on the plus side i beat im hip who is ranked 13th in socal atm with solo mk 3-1ing his olimar, seemed much easier than when i went diddy and was really free for mk.

mk is worse than top tiers because his neutral isnt as good without the autocancel shorthop stuff like sheik and diddy have. im not giving up yet but its really discouraging to lose something i know i couldve won if i had gone diddy from the start.

oh and also doubles i got 1st with phoenix the sonic main who got 1st in singles at the tourney, mk feels really strong in teams so even if i think i cant do it with mk there ill still probably use him in teams, hes just way too godlike at getting upb pickup kills off of stuff from your partner and neutral game matters a whole lot less.

i thought it was gonna be stacked but actually everyone went to a bigger tourney in vegas so really only a few good people were there, heres some stuff from the tourney

http://www.twitch.tv/tloccpu/b/627975294

@ 1:59:48 - the last game of doubles gf

@ 3:00:02 - the most crushing victory in tourney ive ever had lol

@ 3:56:30 vs im hip's olimar - started off close game 1 then it just got worse and worse lol...played it like it was brawl mk and camped, olimar cant do **** if you have a lead on sv. last game on fd it just kind of got away from him.

@ 5:01:40 vs Phoenix's sonic - i think i just came into this match with a totally wrong mindset from having platform camping being so effective vs olimar. hint...it doesnt work vs sonic lol. and dash attack as an approach was just really bad as well, and with the momentum being so bad everything just wasnt working, he kept falling out of upb and never dieing, got a super lame backthrow kill at 60% on the sv platform and nothing went my way. still thinking about what i couldve done idk. happy for him though he's #4 in san diego atm behind me, tearbear, and falln and is better than several people on the actual socal pr tbh, so its good he got a nice singles win for once.

My experience with Brawl MK vs Olimar is that you shouldn't let Olimar do anything. Be all in-your-face against Olimar.
I believe it should be the same in Smash 4, like how Zero's Diddy went full on aggressive against Dabuz's Olimar at Apex.

Also, Upthrow seems to be good at killing Pikmin. I think @ Katakiri has some experience in the MU. I wouldn't go for platform camping because it gives Olimar time to pluck out the purple ones. You did really good, though. Congrats!