The Metagame's Existential Crisis

[chaos11011]

I am a strong believer that the Smash 4 metagame is trying to define itself at an unhealthy pace. At times, I feel like players are trying to rush to the perfect image of a fully realized metagame, often forgetting the steps to acquire one, building our scene by throwing 4 walls and a roof to make a structure instead of putting it together brick by brick.

Both Melee and Brawl took a few years to get to the metagame that they're known for today. Stages were slowly removed over time, so why is it that today, we are letting things go before we even complete the first year of the game? We look at how Melee is being played and we want to mimick it, or at least adapt to it, as it is a competitive esport and we, as Smash 4 players, also want to be praised as such.

We want to fill a niche. We scrap FLSS because it doesn't entertain the streams or because it takes longer to manage. We combat the acceptance of customs because we want to be simplistic. We minimize our stage lists in hopes to achieve our perfect state because we've seen our peers do the same. It might have worked for them, and it might work for us, but we shouldn't do it because of them. We shouldn't do it to reach the "end game" quicker.

I believe that the metagame will stablize at it's own pace if we allow it the room to breathe. I keep looking at how our metagame is right now and I can't help but think how it will look years from now. Every game changes through the years and when it comes to Smash, they tend to go minimalistic, so when our metagame today is already so conservitive, and it's only been a bit less than a year since Smash 4 for the Wii U has been out, what can we expect from the game half a decade from now? Will we reach the perfect game or will we burn the game out, ignoring the choices presented in front of us? While planning is important, I think that for the sake of the metagame, we should be more patient with our decisions because when it comes to Smash, when something is banned, it doesn't tend to come back.

 

[T4ylor]

There's no point in delaying the unavoidable. It's just a waste of time.

 

[chaos11011]

While that's a good point, I feel like it would be more beneficial to take our time in case we do find hidden gems that we would otherwise overlook.

I also want to say that I don't think that a conservitive Smash 4 is a bad thing. I reread my OP and I think I gave off that vibe. I just think that there are more options and that we should make our decisions carefully in case we miss out on something that could be beneficial to the metagame. I want the future of the game to be the best it can be, whether it be conservitive or liberal, but I want to achieve that reality once it is absolutely certain that one direction or the other is without a doubt the best way to go. The game is still young and I think that we should experiment a bit more, but I do understand why we are taking the direction we are now.

 

[Big-Cat]

Excellent question. The reason why things are being struck down quicker in Smash 4 is experience. As a community, we know the gist of what is degenerate. Levels with caves of life or uncontrollable hazards are ruled out because the can make outcomes luck based.

Walk offs are banned because it makes or breaks matches way too quickly. With characters that have excellent edge carry like Sheik, they're even stronger.

The rules should be kept as minimalistic as possible and that may mean knocking out stages or whatever as a process of elimination.

 

[Zorcey]

Esports is rapidly becoming a business - and a lucrative one at that. There is money to be made from Smash 4, and making the game entertaining for spectators is an essential part of this process. Nobody is rushing the metagame for the sake of rushing the metagame, and nobody is banning everything that presents itself as complex because they're "conservatives"; what they're trying to do is get Smash 4 in the "cool" crowd with Melee, League of Legends and the like - this requires a fully functional, simplistic ruleset that is easy for the masses to follow.

...LOL.

In all seriousness, it's comes down to a fear of jank. Nobody wants their game 5 in Grand Finals cut short by Delfino's finicky blast zones.

 

[Raijinken]

Essentially what KumaOso said, except people are also more willing to ban than to analyze objectively. Completely predictable/controllable/non-lethal hazards still get bans offhand, and despite the general simplification of rulesets, no one is brave enough to literally copy For Glory's stage selection rules (ultimate simplification). Instead of allowing any meta to solidify, we keep being wishy-washy over all the various options this game has. Which would be great, if the playerbase was big enough to support running vastly different rulesets alongside each other.

 

[shinyskarmory]

You also have to consider that our ability to grow the meta is greater in Smash 4 than it has ever been in the rest of the series. When melee was released, IIRC Youtube did not exist and the internet was still a rather raw, inconsistent source of information. As a result, when new techs or combos were discovered, they had to spread by word of mouth and eventually Smashboards/reddit/whatever.

Nowadays, whenever somebody finds a new tech, it gets posted on Youtube and everybody knows about it within a few days. Someone does a sweet combo on stream and the gfycat hits the top of r/smashbros. Some pro posts a tweet calling customs jank and every anti-customs player is quoting their argument the next day.

We'll never go back to the days of a slowly developing metagame; rapid development and a constant tech/option selection/followup arms race is the future of all competitive games.

 

[Powerman293]

I don't think limiting stages is rushing to a metagame, it just means we have a playing field to start with. From experience, we know what's fair and so having a base to work with will give everyone nice and comfortable footing.

Now what I don't like is the immediate rush to create a tier list. I feel like the game is way too young to have a "20XX, push the top tier character to its limits" type of scenario that we have with ZeRo and everybody. Let's wait for the dust to settle and see how it goes from there.

 

[NGUY (guitarstage)]

We gotta keep looking forward not trying to mimic but to create each day... The meta evolves so quickly in our own eyes and if we want sm4sh to be big,i believe it is the only way

 

[clydeaker]

Keep in mind although Smash 4 may look similar to Brawl, Project M, Melee, and Smash 64, it is a completely different game in depth. Not everything that applied to its predecessors should necessarily apply to Smash 4.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Mother****ers keep tryin to build rome in one damn day

 

[Delzethin]

I think part of it also comes from feeling like Smash 4 has to measure up right now. There's this fear that Melee and/or other games will snuff it out unless it can match up ASAP against them in every way. I understand where that fear is coming from...and yet it's leading to a whole lot of irrational ideas that people aren't questioning enough.

 

[Powerman293]

Just feels like the metagame is ridiculously lopsided right now. With everyone focusing their lab attention on Sheik and Diddy and no one else (because ZeRo always wins with them), the things the community is discovering is increasing an absurd amount compared to everyone else. Putting them arbitrarily ahead because they're meta is better developed because... they're top tier.

 

[Snackss]

Just feels like the metagame is ridiculously lopsided right now. With everyone focusing their lab attention on Sheik and Diddy and no one else (because ZeRo always wins with them), the things the community is discovering is increasing an absurd amount compared to everyone else. Putting them arbitrarily ahead because they're meta is better developed because... they're top tier.

They're top tier because they're top tier. Diddy not so blatantly anymore, but Sheik definitely is. There's no hidden secret keeping Falco or Marth or Ganondorf out of top tier. They just clearly aren't as good. Obviously people make hasty judgments, like the tier lists when the game came out on 3DS, but we've had months of Diddy/ Sheik/ Rosalina domination to pull from now. There are obviously quite a few neglected characters because people are afraid to branch out beyond Sheik/ Mario/ Sonic/ Fox/ Captain Falcon, though.

Is there even an objective ruling for stage rules? I understand that people want to avoid certain campy ledgestall strategies from being consistently viable, but if you're going to treat Smash Bros. like a competitive game, you need to draw a line somewhere. No other competitive game has stages where you can kill someone instantly by standing in the right spot at the right time, or someone dies instantly from getting knocked at just the right angle, or the stage forces both players to sit in shield, or a giant metal claw combos someone to death. It feels like the legal stage list settles for moving stages because "eh, good enough." Something is predictable, sure. But that doesn't mean it won't be exploitable in some rather questionable ways. And it's difficult to argue against them because some people are so adamant about having "more" in every aspect of the game. In a competitive game, more is not necessarily a good thing. You can say people are hasty in banning stages, but there is a large group of people just as stubborn about keeping stages based on less-than-convincing criteria.

 

[NinfanNanz]

They're top tier because they're top tier. Diddy not so blatantly anymore, but Sheik definitely is. There's no hidden secret keeping Falco or Marth or Ganondorf out of top tier. They just clearly aren't as good. Obviously people make hasty judgments, like the tier lists when the game came out on 3DS, but we've had months of Diddy/ Sheik/ Rosalina domination to pull from now. There are obviously quite a few neglected characters because people are afraid to branch out beyond Sheik/ Mario/ Sonic/ Fox/ Captain Falcon, though..

While their might be no hidden secrets for those characters, there may be a different play style that makes them better in some way or form. I haven't seen any use of perfect pivoting yet, but Idk why it hasn't been used. Maybe they can utilize them. Anyway, there were many cases in Smash's early life where characters who were top got knocked down or low who got knocked up simply because the metagame developed and people figured out how to deal with their kits or used their kits with different tools to make the kits more effective respectively.

Anyway, I agree that Smash 4 is rushing its metagame. Smash 4 I think at the beginning was trying to prove itself as a competitive Smash game when it first game out due to Nintendo. Nintendo pushed it to match both casual and competitive fans. Nintendo even held multiple tournaments and sponsored some more to show that this game has competitive prowess. This push I believe causes the community and TOs to solidify things quickly. We want it to be at its max potential because we feel the game needs to shine as a competitive game. That's my opinion.

 

[Gawain]

I don't really agree with most of what you said. No, people don't want customs because they just don't like them. They don't make the game more fun, and to most people they actually make the game less fun and interesting. This is common across all the top players too: pretty much none of them want customs despite doing well in spite of them. It has nothing to do with simplicity. The same thing is true of FLSS: most actual players just don't like it.

And I just want to say, I've really, really grown to despise the word "metagame". It's thrown around here like nothing and it doesn't even really mean anything. It's just nonstop metametametametameta here sometimes.

 

[Teh Sandwich]

There is no "crisis". quit being so dramatic.

 

[PUK]

I don't really agree with most of what you said. No, people don't want customs because they just don't like them.

Wait what? is there a poll somewhere, where everyone concerned answer yhis question?
Because i can name more people that are indiferent to than people that like or dislike custom. Except if we talk about reddit or smashboard or attention ***** top player.
Not interested into custom is the norm, pro-custom and anti-custom are a bunch of kids who want to be more important that they are and decide what the rule should be.
I personnaly don't want to fight against Captain falcon, but because some people think he has good style i need to fight against him. Every. Single. Tournament.
I know some people who agree with, me, actually i know ton of people who agree with me. So can i say "people don't want C.Falcon"? Yes, but it's really weird.
But can i say "people don't want to play with C.Falcon"? Yes, but it's still weird.
Should we ban C.Falcon? No


And actually, about FLSS, most actual players doesn't care, some top players like it, but i don't know anyone who will say "oh god it's so horrible, i have been forced to play on a stage i like 3 times instead of 2"

 

[Gawain]

Wait what? is there a poll somewhere, where everyone concerned answer yhis question?
Because i can name more people that are indiferent to than people that like or dislike custom. Except if we talk about reddit or smashboard or attention ***** top player.
Not interested into custom is the norm, pro-custom and anti-custom are a bunch of kids who want to be more important that they are and decide what the rule should be.
I personnaly don't want to fight against Captain falcon, but because some people think he has good style i need to fight against him. Every. Single. Tournament.
I know some people who agree with, me, actually i know ton of people who agree with me. So can i say "people don't want C.Falcon"? Yes, but it's really weird.
But can i say "people don't want to play with C.Falcon"? Yes, but it's still weird.
Should we ban C.Falcon? No


And actually, about FLSS, most actual players doesn't care, some top players like it, but i don't know anyone who will say "oh god it's so horrible, i have been forced to play on a stage i like 3 times instead of 2"

Comparing Captain Falcon to custom moves makes no sense. People aren't "interested" in customs because they don't add anything of value to the game. I also like how you try and call top players "attention *****" as if that discredits their opinion. And no, a Smashboards poll doesn't mean anything. What matters are the people attending and spectating tournaments.

If enough people aren't interested in something and it doesn't add anything to the game, AND it creates logistic problems that we don't even need to have, then yeah it should go. That's the end of the question to be honest. Not liking playing vs some characters doesn't even compare, it's a different subject entirely. Customs are a non default thing. And stage selecting is more of an issue of FLSS being a pointless time waster.

 

[PUK]

Comparing Captain Falcon to custom moves makes no sense. People aren't "interested" in customs because they don't add anything of value to the game. I also like how you try and call top players "attention *****" as if that discredits their opinion. And no, a Smashboards poll doesn't mean anything. What matters are the people attending and spectating tournaments.

If enough people aren't interested in something and it doesn't add anything to the game, AND it creates logistic problems that we don't even need to have, then yeah it should go. That's the end of the question to be honest. Not liking playing vs some characters doesn't even compare, it's a different subject entirely. Customs are a non default thing. And stage selecting is more of an issue of FLSS being a pointless time waster.

Most people are not interested in a lot of things because guess what? Most people don't like to put time into something they might not like. That's why we are both here arguing about a pointless thing instead of educate ourself to Iranian History or something else.
I'm not comparing C.Falcon to custom, i'm just trying to say something more dumb than you, but related to the subject. That's all i could find.
And finally let's assume that you a healthy boy, like me, like most of the boys. We don't need town planning to make the city's infrastructure more usable by the little minority who can't see, walk or hear properly. Plus these modification costs a lot of money and can make things a little less convenient us. It creates logistical problems, it bothers more people than it helps, the money could be used to make things like a new skatepark. Well it's not a reason to send them **** themselves
Also, let's talk about LOL. LOL sell skins as DLC, these skin actually add nothing to the game, yet this particular game is playing competitively with these skins, more competitively than smash ever dreamed. So you add something to a game for a minority and it won't stop most people to enjoy omg!!!
So know i propose you to go on for glory where you won't be forced to play with custom you dislike, in your home where you won't meet people who don't think like you, instead of going to the tournaments where you will be forced to play with rules you don't want.
And let the ****ing people who want to play on a way, who are motivated enough to organise a tournament and take care of the logistical issue, and the other people who want to play with them even if they don't care about the rule. Let them play. And if you are angry, just go outside with your car, go to a supermarket and park your car on a parking space reserved for handicapped drivers.

 

[NinfanNanz]

If I may interject, The discussion you two are having doesn't seem to pertain to the particular topic.

 

[LightLV]

I think people don't have a good concept of what "METAGAME" refers to. Look, this isn't something people could "rush" even if they wanted to, the metagame is a consequence, an outcome. Not so much a choice.


The collective community doesn't "CHOOSE" to adhere to tiers, or stages don't get banned just because people are trying to pretend the game is something it isn't. People are actively trying to be competitive in the game. Smash 4 is a new entry to a very long running series. We have a collective knowledge to run off of. This game isn't nearly as new as people are pretending it is, which is probably why the earliest tier lists are STILL somewhat accurate now, patches later.



Finally, you need to understand, that while it took nearly a decade for Melee to become what it was...we no longer live in 2001. Gaming, social media and fighting games as a whole have changed, ALOT. Had Melee been released today, i guarantee you, its meta would have evolved to what it is now in about 1/4th the time it took, probably faster. Forums are a thing, video streaming and video sharing has not only become accessible but common, and social media is everywhere.

There are more people playing, watching and dissecting smash than there has ever been before. Everything is moving at the only pace it can move at, which is its natural pace. Just calm down and join the ride.

 

[Charey]

I don't see how FLSS is a "pointless waste of time" if it lets players start on a more neutral stage for the first game of a set. Players can still ignore stage striking if they don't care about the stage they play on (which is strange because of how much stage choice affects a match) without disregarding the fact that Smashville does favor some types of characters over others which is why we have stage striking in the first place.

 

[Ravine]

There is no "crisis". quit being so dramatic.

Yeah..

People talking about the people talking about the game.
What next? People talking about the people talking about the people talking about the game?

 

[Gawain]

I don't see how FLSS is a "pointless waste of time" if it lets players start on a more neutral stage for the first game of a set. Players can still ignore stage striking if they don't care about the stage they play on (which is strange because of how much stage choice affects a match) without disregarding the fact that Smashville does favor some types of characters over others which is why we have stage striking in the first place.

Okay, but you can still strike Smashville in a counter pick setup. 9/10 times you start on one of the regular "starter" stages anyways. Most of the time it just sucks up time that doesn't need to be sucked up since it almost always ends on the same stages as a counterpick setup.

 

[Charey]

Okay, but you can still strike Smashville in a counter pick setup. 9/10 times you start on one of the regular "starter" stages anyways. Most of the time it just sucks up time that doesn't need to be sucked up since it almost always ends on the same stages as a counterpick setup.

Actually the locals I go to use FLSS and I end up on Delfino a lot, more so then FD.

 

[blackghost]

It honestly just feels like smash 4 is trying so hard to define itself in such a ridiculously short period of time. unlike with early melee there isn't exploraration about rulesets. there isn't largescale experimentation about stage lists, custom moves, stock count or timer. much of smash 4 metagame and rules can be traced back to apex 2015 and rules grandfathered from brawl. I'm not going to post in particular about my views on any of these topics but it does feel like the game never got a chance in many aspects. To compare we KNOW items, walk offs, certain stages, and even smetimes wobbles hinder melee gameplay and tournament play. smash 4 NEVER pushed its limits like melee did. some of these rules never need to be revisted (items) but others should have been more closely tested and experimented with. ESPECIALLY the stage list,stock count, and custom moves.
In smash history nothing has ever come back form a ban that i know of. (don't count the metaknight ban wasn't ever universal) Week one tournaents are the most "liberal" a tournment will ever be in most cases after the rules are set they only get stricter. Smash 4 has already wound itself up super tight and i dont know if thats in the games best interest. maybe it is but i'd definitely be more comfortable with where smash 4 is if i saw a journey of experimentation and not in one year restricts on the level that took melee YEARS to reach.

 

[LightLV]

It honestly just feels like smash 4 is trying so hard to define itself in such a ridiculously short period of time. unlike with early melee there isn't exploraration about rulesets. there isn't largescale experimentation about stage lists, custom moves, stock count or timer.

Why do you guys want so hard to believe Smash4 exists in a vacuum? We dont need to spend time defining the VAST majority of things about this game because we've been playing the same game for LITERALLY 16 years now.

 

[WavEfighting]

I think one main reason people may feel the 4 meta is "hurried" or "inexperienced" is the divide that still exists from when brawl was created. Melee and and new smash need to learn to live together and not pressure one another. It only hurts us to be elitist, and it's definitely still a vibe I distinctly feel going to tourneys for either games.

 

[blackghost]

Why do you guys want so hard to believe Smash4 exists in a vacuum? We dont need to spend time defining the VAST majority of things about this game because we've been playing the same game for LITERALLY 16 years now.

if you really thin melee, brawl, and four are the same thing i can't help you. no one will tell you they are the same game. and what i listed especailly stage list, custom moves and stock count ARENT anywhere close between each individual game. so i really have no idea what you are triyng to say.

 

[Teh Sandwich]

if you really thin melee, brawl, and four are the same thing i can't help you. no one will tell you they are the same game. and what i listed especailly stage list, custom moves and stock count ARENT anywhere close between each individual game. so i really have no idea what you are triyng to say.

Pretty sure he means, we have a good idea of what works competitively in smash. We know big stages, or walk offs should not be legal. No need to test them out any further. The stock count isn't that huge of a change that everyone makes it out to be. We've tested 2 and 3 stock, and right now, it seems 2 stock is the best way to run a tournament. However that may change to 3 stock. Custom moves are just too much of a hassle, and are meant for casual play.
No, melee is not smash 4, but smash is smash. It's still the same concept.

 

[CptPuff]

I kinda don't want it to progress very fast at all... I can't help but feel like the longer it takes for the meta to be fully fleshed out, the more fleshed out it will end up being, if that makes sense.

 

[DavemanCozy]

We can't even agree on whether customs should be on or off, what number of stocks is better, etc. And worst of all, I rarely see anyone here having intelligent discussion over the rules, and instead see crap-flinging contests on why a stage shouldn't be legal and people trying to push rules on each other (another example: Customs). Oh yeah. This is certainly not a good pace at which the game's meta is being established.

Personally, I just want to play the game.