The Marth Support Thread
Marth Confirmed!!
(Video linked in above image.)
And so at last, Marth is confirmed. According to a rumor at Brawl Central he is unlocked by completing classic mode (which is odd, given that was how Jigglypuff was unlocked in the last two games, but I suppose weirder things have happened).
Other known info:
In Subspace Emissary Marth starts out in his castle, then rushes forth to fight the approaching Subspace Army on his own. Once outside he encounters Meta Knight, and after a brief engagement the two realize they share a common foe and team up against the Subspace Army. Under yet unknown circumstance they later join with Ike.
Marth's moves seem to be unchanged, except for Shield Breaker, which appears to have become a straight stab attack rather than a large arcing slash. He is noticeably slower, but this is probably just because of Brawl being slower overall (his attacks seem to move at or near the same rate as always though). Precise changes to the physics are unknown since the only movies thus far seen have him fighting Subspace enemies, not PC characters.
Pre-Confirmation Thread:
Marth Confirmed!!
(Video linked in above image.)
And so at last, Marth is confirmed. According to a rumor at Brawl Central he is unlocked by completing classic mode (which is odd, given that was how Jigglypuff was unlocked in the last two games, but I suppose weirder things have happened).
Other known info:
In Subspace Emissary Marth starts out in his castle, then rushes forth to fight the approaching Subspace Army on his own. Once outside he encounters Meta Knight, and after a brief engagement the two realize they share a common foe and team up against the Subspace Army. Under yet unknown circumstance they later join with Ike.
Marth's moves seem to be unchanged, except for Shield Breaker, which appears to have become a straight stab attack rather than a large arcing slash. He is noticeably slower, but this is probably just because of Brawl being slower overall (his attacks seem to move at or near the same rate as always though). Precise changes to the physics are unknown since the only movies thus far seen have him fighting Subspace enemies, not PC characters.
Pre-Confirmation Thread:
All right, I finally decided to break from tradition and actually post a thread of my own. I’ve noticed a lack of any large or official thread to support Marth on this forum – there have been a couple that cropped up back when Fire Emblem DS was announced, one of which is linked in the support thread index, but they were more so directed towards that game in particular, and lacked a first post with actual information about Marth, rationale for his return, and so on. So I’m making this thread to give Marth supporters an official place to gather and those who deny his return an official place to make their case against those of us best able to and most interested in debating the topic intelligently.
So first of all, some information about Marth. You’re all familiar with him as the lithe swordsman from Melee, one of the most (over)user characters in the game, but most know little, if anything, about him beyond that. Well, he was the star of the first Fire Emblem game, Ankoku Ryū to Hikari no Tsurugi (The Dark Dragon and the Sword of Light), which debuted on the NES in Japan way back in 1990. The game was remade and expanded upon in 1994 as Fire Emblem: Monshō no Nazo (Mystery of the Emblem) on the SNES, the third Fire Emblem game, and to date the best selling one; and soon he will be the star of the eleventh Fire Emblem game, Fire Emblem DS, another remake with even more expansion. In those games, he is the 16-year-old Prince of the realm of Altea and the direct descendant of the legendary hero Anri, slayer of the Dark Dragon Medeus. As with most Fire Emblem games, a war breaks out at the beginning as Marth’s realm is invaded by its neighbor, the kingdom of Dolua. Marth’s father is killed by the wicked priest Garnef, his sister (Princess Ellis) is captured, and he is forced into exile. The game’s story follows him, along with what companions and troops he can muster, as he seeks a way to win back his kingdom, which ultimately comes in the form of obtaining the shield known as the Fire Emblem and the magical artifact the Sword of Light that it allows him to wield and using those to confront Garnef and the reborn Dark Dragon, Medeus. There is of course much more to it, and the story in the second half of his second game is different still, but that’s the gist of what can be said in a quick summary without giving too many spoilers.
Anyway, lets get to the meat of the thread, shall we?
Why Marth Should Return for Brawl
Point 1: The Alpha
First of all, as I said before and everyone is surely well aware, Marth was the very first Lord of the Fire Emblem saga. Now, while in other series this may not seem to mean much, you need to look at it from the perspective of Fire Emblem, in which the main characters change constantly – being the first gives a very unique and important spot in the history of the series, which helps distinguish him from among many other characters who at first glance would appear of equal importance to him. In addition, it makes him an icon of the series, the first true hero which fans of it were exposed – which, thanks to Melee and the fact that he had to be unlocked before Roy there, applies to many international fans as well as the Japanese.
Point 2: Popularity
Yes, popularity. It gets repeated a lot, but that’s because it bears repeating. Marth is one of the most popular Fire Emblem characters in Japan – his only peers being Sigurd and Ike. Just how popular is this? Heres something you may be very interested to here: he was number 11 on the Melee newcomer poll (translation here), which was above the likes of even Diddy Kong and Meta Knight. Most of those who were above him were big name characters like Bowser, King Dedede, Wario, and Banjo-Kazooie; and those few who weren’t in Melee and aren’t announced for Brawl are impossible (James Bond and Banjo-Kazooie) or minor and/or unlikely anyway (Mew and Toad).
Further, we have some second-hand evidence that this popularity is almost surely continuing in the newcomer poll for Brawl (the one stickied in this forum). Lets take a look at the breakdown of Fire Emblem requests there: one character from Genealogy of the Holy War (Sigurd, with one vote), four from Path of Radiance (Ike with four votes, and the Black Knight, Soren, and Mia with one each), and five (or six if you count the twins as two) from Marth’s games (Oguma with two votes, and Nabaru, Sheeda, Maji/Saji, and Jeigan with one each). Yes, not only did characters from Marth’s game outnumber those from the more recent, international PoR, but other than Ike the only one to go above one vote was Oguma. Plainly, Marth’s game is still held in very high regard in Japan, which gives us good reason to believe he is as well. With that, and the knowledge that the opinion of the Japanese on the matter surely matters at least as much as, if not more than, the rest of the world’s, especially when it comes to characters they have had much more exposure than we have, its safe to say this is one major feather in Marth’s cap.
Edit: Another worthy piece of evidence on this matter, submitted by bijoukaiba, is that on this website, which is an index of Japanese Smash-fan sites, Marth has the second most number of fan sites dedicated to him, with only Link being above him. The top five are: Link (168 sites as of 11/04), Marth (151 sites as of 11/04), Roy (147 sites as of 11/04), Kirby (144 sites as of 11/04), Pikachu (98 sites as of 11/04).
Plus, of course, Marth’s popularity is no minor thing even internationally. He was a very popular character in Melee, easily more so than his counterpart Roy, and as I mentioned in point 1 many international Fire Emblem fans look to him as the character who introduced them to the franchise. Possibly his popularity from Melee is in part due to how powerful/overpowered he was, but popularity is popularity, whatever the motivation is.
Point 3: The Star Returns
A similarly well-known and also important fact is that Marth is the single most recurring main character in the Fire Emblem saga. He was the first character to star in two games, until Ike came along the only one; and now with the announcement of Fire Emblem DS he is the first and only to star in three. In a series where the main characters change constantly, that’s huge – not only is it a sign of his popularity (why use him so often if he weren’t the most popular of Fire Emblem’s characters?), but it gives him more importance to the series than any other character. No other Fire Emblem character holds such a great role in its history.
Point 4: The Grizzled Veteran
Yes, this another important one: Marth being a veteran of Melee. Obviously, since not all veterans are returning, in and of itself it means little (although don’t make the mistake of thinking it means nothing in and of itself either). However, it does change the fundamental question a bit – in addition to asking “why should he be in?”, we must ask “does he have any reason to be removed?” Being blunt, the answer to the latter is inversely proportional to the answer to the former – where he has plenty of reasons to be in the game, he has none not to return. What of all the arguments you see against him on these forums, you may ask? They will be addressed in the next part of this post, so read on if you don’t believe me.
Point 5: The Omega
Ah, the big one, which I have been mentioning several times already in passing. A recent piece of news has given Marth fans even more hope than the already substantial amount we had before: Marth’s game is returning in the form of the Fire Emblem DS. This is a remake of his first game (whether or not it includes the expansion from the third is unknown), including expanded aspects such as new characters (one, a cavalier named Freyr, has already been revealed) and wifi capabilities (making it the first Fire Emblem to possess that). Although little is known about it, it is safe to assume it will be an international game, as all of the Fire Emblems since Blazing Sword have been, plus the international fan base has already been exposed to Marth via Melee, so it already has a hook among us to boot.
Why is this important? Simple: because it removes the only legitimate arguments against Marth. Those were that he is an old character and could be out-prioritized by more recent ones for advertising purposes, and that he was a Japan-only character. For the former, plainly with Fire Emblem DS he is now the most recent Fire Emblem star (as well as the first – the Alpha and the Omega), which means that if anything he out-prioritizes the others for advertising purposes. For the latter, it could easily be argued he was an international character via Melee anyway (and I often did so before), but now his game will become international as well, eliminating even the use of that argument on a technicality. The only actual potential problems with his presence are gone, and the way is clear for his return.
(Marth and Sheeda from Fire Emblem DS)
And that ends the reasons why Marth should be in Brawl. I defy anyone to find another Fire Emblem character who has that much going for him and nothing against his inclusion from an objective point-of-view. Not even Ike compares.
The Common Arguments and their Error
1: Ike is replacing him!
Not only is he not, he could not. For starters, look at what we know of him statistically: hes incredibly slow (more so than Bowser, by some accounts) and incredibly strong (one video shows him making an easy KO on a foe at 56% damage – that’s ones where the foe had no real chance to recover). This is the exact opposite of what Marth is - the lithe, speedy swordsman who relies on combos and quick finishing moves for victory. In addition, what is known of their move sets indicates they are nothing alike even in the simple mechanics of each attack. Ike’s only truly similar moves to Marth’s are his counter for special moves, and fair and f-tilt for normal ones. That’s it – three moves, one of which is a fairly generic special move that could fairly be assigned to all FE swordsmen. Outside of that there are only very generic similarities which all sword-wielders have – both use wide, sweeping cuts quite a lot (and since its either those, stabs, or short cuts…), and they have the same dsmash that all swordsmen have (quick one-two pair of slashes at both sides of their feet). Ike actually has more similarities to Link than to Marth: his dair is a sword plant, his fsmash is Link’s from the original SSB, his dash attack is just like Link’s, and his d-tilt is exactly like Link’s. Its almost as if they were deliberately trying to make him different from Marth (hint hint).
Now, beyond the statistics, just look at their respective roles in the series and you’ll see why Ike could never replace Marth. Marth is a classic of the saga, beloved in Japan above all others and made a somewhat of an icon of it elsewhere via Melee, and the most recurring character of the series. Ike is a new character, and though he like Marth is a recurring and popular one, he has nowhere near Marth’s history with or importance to the series. The only thing he ever had on Marth was that his game was internationally released, and with Fire Emblem DS on the horizon, that’s no longer an issue. Replacing Marth with Ike would be like replacing Pikachu with Pachirisu.
Sub-Argument: They both look exactly the same/both are blue-haired swordsmen! Why have both?
Ugh, you have no idea how sick I am of hearing these ones. First off, no, they do not look exactly the same. The only thing I can figure is that those who think such are being blinded by the blue hair. Look at their respective clothes – Marth’s fine cloth and silk, including the jewel in cape and his sister’s tiara, compared to Ike’s rough leathers and tattered cloak. Look at their armor – Ike’s one patch of leather padding and single shoulder pad compared to Marth’s steel breastplate. Look at their statures – Ike’s rougher, more rugged build compared to Marth’s lean frame. Heck, even look at their hair and get past the color for a moment to notice Marth’s is flat and sleek while Ike’s is shaggy and unkempt. No, the two do not look the same, period.
Anyway moving beyond that mini-rant, my main point: what the characters look like doesn’t matter. Never has, never will. Zelda and Peach were both blonde princesses in dresses in Melee. Kirby and Jigglypuff are both pink puffballs. Mario and Luigi are both overall-wearing plumbers. Heck, for reasons I’ll never understand, many of you support Young Link in some form or another in addition to Link, and they not only look alike, they’re the same person! Marth and Ike’s similarities in appearance – or lack thereof – are utterly irrelevant to whether they’re worthy of being in Brawl. Both are the best two choices for FE reps in SSB, and so both should be in, and that’s all there is to it.
(Incidentally, to those that are stuck on the blue hair thing, consider how many other characters with the same hair color we have. Lucas, Peach, Samus, and Link are all blondes; and Mario, Zelda, Pit, Snake, Pokèmon Trainer, Fox, DK, Diddy, and the Ice Climbers all have brown hair. Why in God’s good name is there a problem with two blue-haired people but no problem with all of that?)
2: Ike has a Marth costume, so Marth must be out!
Thankfully, this has turned out to be wrong. Once again, check the Ike sub-forum for the full information, but the short version is that, of all his outfits which were seen at E for All, the closest one to Marth is one which gives him a blue cape and white outfit with black trim, and that resembles Sigurd (seen here) far more than it does Marth – although even whether it is intended to be a Sigurd outfit is up for debate. You’ll also notice that the E for All reports were divided about the matter – some said he had it, one said he only looked like Marth from a distance, others said Ike merely had changes of clothes for his outfits, nothing special. It is most likely that those who thought he had a Marth outfit were the same individuals who already thought they looked very similar to begin with, and they were merely incapable of noticing the difference once he was given a blue cape and lighter color clothing.
Edit: And in addition to this, we now have the "different colors" update, which shows Ike, but gives only his "ordinary soldier" colors. That ought to knock this rumor to the ground - if Ike had an outfit designed to resemble Marth, or any other character, it would have been shown then.
3: Marth was overpowered in Melee!
And this is relevant how? Every character is getting changed in some way in the transition from Melee to Brawl. We already heard Fox has had some nerfing occur to him. If Sakurai and his crew agree with you, they’ll do the same to Marth. Its not that hard.
4: There are too many swordsmen already!
That’s your opinion, and you’re entitled to it. Do not make the mistake of assuming it to be some rule for SSB, though. We have absolutely no indication that Sakurai is at all concerned about the weapons used by each individual character – and if anything, the fact that newcomers are using swords in greater numbers this time (see Pit, Meta Knight, and Ike; and that’s with barely over half the expected roster revealed) is an indication that he isn’t very concerned about it. Super Smash Brothers is not Street Fighter – theres no “unwritten rule” restricting weapons use to a minimum or giving fist-fighters a preference over weapon-wielders. If anything, it could be argued that the prevalence of unarmed fighters would be best balanced out by the inclusion of more weapon-users, swords or otherwise (that’s not an argument I would make myself, but it could be made with more merit than the argument that there are too many swords-users). Besides, the simple fact is that swords are the most common weapon given to video game heroes, since they’re the archetypical heroic weapon – have been since the Samurai of Japan and the myths of the knights of Europe. There is no good reason to penalize characters for that. The character’s weapon or fighting style of choice is not a good reason to restrict them from SSB; its nothing but pure personal bias.
5: Hes too feminine/gay/*insert generic assumption based on Marth’s appearance*
I’m sorry to hear your view of him is confined to narrow-minded stereotypes and assumptions, but the simple fact of the matter is that they mean nothing for whether or not he should be in. They may impact whether you like him or not, but it’s the popular opinion that matters, not the opinion of any individual, and popular opinion is very much so in his favor. And for those who may be willing to be educated out of this viewpoint: Marth’s tiara belonged to his dead sister, Ellis, and he wears it in honor of her; his breastplate is a fairly common piece of armor from medieval times, designed to provide good protection (especially of the heart and other vital organs) while not weighing too much or interfering with mobility; he wears the fine clothes he does because he is a prince and such is expected of him; and he very far from being a homosexual, as he displays potential romances with several women in his games, the most prominent being the princess of a neighboring country, Sheeda (I say potential only because actual support-style romances weren’t implemented until the fourth FE game, and they’re merely implied in the game, never expounded upon fully, at least to my knowledge). Edit: And as I have just learned, at the beggining of the second book in Mystery of the Emblem, it is mentioned that Marth is engaged to Sheeda, so apparently that romance was expounded upon after all.
6: Micaiah/The Black Knight/Hector/Roy/etc should be in instead of him!
‘Fraid not. Take a gander back up at all Marth has going for him – not a single other Fire Emblem character can claim that many good reasons to be in Brawl. Not Micaiah, whose chief hope rests on being a Radiant Dawn add. Not the Black Knight, who is a secondary character even in his own games and is merely over-hyped on these boards. Not Hector, who was a secondary Lord and is less popular than most other Lords (including Lyn, who is from his game and was already revealed to be an AT). Certainly not Roy, who only even gets mentioned because of his presence in Melee, which he only received to advertise for his then-new game. Not any other Fire Emblem character could possibly out-prioritize Marth.
But don’t fear too much, this doesn’t mean no other will get in. On the contrary, unless Brawl is much smaller than most of us believe it to be, theres a fair chance Fire Emblem will have three characters – and though I wouldn’t get my hopes up, if Brawl turns out to be much larger than we expect, we could even get four. Fire Emblem is quite important to not only Nintendo, but video gaming in general, as it was the series that created the entire tactical RPG genre among video games. Its popularity in Japan is comparable to that of the Zelda saga, and its popularity elsewhere, while less, is certainly growing with the release of better games such as Path of Radiance, Radiant Dawn, and with any luck in the future Fire Emblem DS. It is also one of Nintendo’s larger franchises – discounting remakes, it is nearly as large the Zelda and Pokèmon series, and its twice the size of Star Fox, which most fans assume will be getting three characters in Brawl. There is a great possibility that a third Fire Emblem character will be fighting in Brawl, its only a question of who – and that is a question for other threads to discuss.
That concludes the common arguments against Marth that I can recall. If one is posed which I feel is worth including, I’ll add it here as the thread goes along.
Other Theories about Marth
Here I will note theories about the known facts of the game which pertain to Marth's return or removal. As they're merely interpretations, whether they have any merit on either side is up to each individual to determine.
1: The Icon Theory
No, this doesn't actually pertain to the famous icon theory from the general discussion boards. Simply put, it is a known fact that the Fire Emblem icon is Marth's sword, Falchion, the Sword of Light. It is identifiable by the jewel in the hilt and the shape of the crosspiece, and is unchanged from Melee. Those who believe this theory consider it evidence of Marth's return, and claim that if Sakurai were going to focus solely on other parts of the game the icon would have been changed (to, for example, Lehran's Medallion from PoR/RD). Not all agree with this theory though, as it can be argued to be circumstantial evidence at best, or argued that regardless of Marth's presence the icon would be preserved as a throwback to the series' origins.
Mentioned by: raphtmarqui
2: The Unique Move Set Theory
This is a fairly simple theory many of you are probably familiar with. Simply put, it states that all characters with unique move sets (or in other words, non-clone characters) will return for Brawl so that those move sets are not lost. Some believe it makes sense, others believe it is a baseless assumption. I'll let you decide for yourself whether you believe it or not.
A post about this theory that deserves to be displayed:
Mentioned by: ElvishSpirit
3: Ike's Early Update Theory
For this one, I'll just give the post about from the member who brought it to my attention and my own reply.
Potential Final Smashes:
1) Perfect Strike - An old idea of my own. Marth would make a single, highly precise strike at a critical portion of his foe's anatomy (think heart, lung, etc), doing massive damage (60-100%), but having absolutely no knockback. The move would not be able to kill itself, but the damage would be crippling, leaving them fairly easy to finish off afterwards.
2) Sword of Light - An idea I came up with somewhat randomly during this thread. Since Falchion is the sword of light and was used during Marth's games to weaken the Dragon of Darkness, either during another FS or as its own FS, it could glow brightly, releasing beams of light in all directions that damage foes caught in them. If this was the FS itself, the beams would be long-range and do moderate damage per second a foe is within them; if in addition to another, short-range with lower damage.
3) The Fire Emblem - An idea by T-major, where Marth would hold out the Fire Emblem (the shield he is pictured with above) and it would summon a roaring pillar of flames about him. This is probably not based on any ability the shield really had, but then again since when could Mario conjure a massive firestorm in any of his games?
Potential Entrances:
1) Warp Magic - Similar to Ike's entrance, Marth would enter using FE-style warp magic. This is a staple of the series, represented in most games via the Warp Staff and used in the anime by Marth's sister. Suggested by Okysho.
2) Sheeda Drop-Off - Exactly what it sounds like. Marth's romantic interest/fiancè Sheeda would fly him in on the back of her Pegasus, either dropping him off from the sky or landing and allowing him to quickly dismount before flying away. Suggested by GenG.
Supporters
Here I will keep a list of any who wish to be publicly known as supporters of Marth. Simply ask in your post (or a PM if you want I suppose) and I will add your user name to here.Zevox, Okysho, ThoraxeRMG, Kirby knight, person701, TheMagicalKuja, dodoromeo, raphtmarqui, WindSquirrel, OysterMeister, Hydde, RokkuManZer0, shadenexus18, NukeA6, Ashes13, GenG, xianfeng, thethirdkoopa, silver777, Doodx, XeroHarsh, ElvishSpirit, frankisvital, Roy-Kun, Deathparasol, DekuBoy, T-major, geemann2236, Saph66, MarthTrinity, ManBearPig, some random guy, Terywj, Eternal phoenix Fire, hemightbegiant, Shadow Calibur, bijoukaiba, gregthepirate, Chaosblade77, Storm Eagle, undieinglight, Mar~, Nintendo_Rockstar, PSIguy89, csrmarth, Pluvius, evilwart, cccck, Numa Dude, Annhialator Zero, Ouendanation, Lunadis, Uchiha.Sanosuke, Soma08, Irow, Rick88, Ephraim, Darthkirby707, ShuffleTrain, super-7, Hallowed Storm, MysticKenji, The Nerd, Bassoonist, Sonic Wave, adumbrodeus, Xervah, LoserNumber2, flalex05, Manny G., l Karasu l.
Current Total: 71.
Marth Add-ons
For those who wish to display their support for Marth in their signature, a collection of submitted add-ons:
Disclaimer: None of the images in this post are my own and are the property of their respective creators.
