The Japanese Ledge Grab rule

[Pierce7d]

no, it doesn't

but it does sound like their character is much better than yours

Please direct me to the section of this post where you presented a viable counter argument.

Metaknight is not broken to the point that he needs to be banned IMO. I am able to beat good MK players with Marth. If I lose, it is usually because I was outplayed.

However, certain things + MK are broken. That's why most places have Infinite Dimension Cape banned. It has nothing to do with the character, it's the tactic that's bad.

Let me provide you with a stricter example then.

You are playing a game where the objective is to reduce your opponent's health to 0. However, when certain characters get the lead, they automatically obtain Juggernaut status, which vastly increases their defensive capabilities. Broken? I think so. Please depict how you are going to land a kill move on a MK/Marth/Pit that is planking.

The point is, your advantage SHOULD NOT GET MULTIPLIED BECAUSE YOU GAINED A SLIGHT PERCENT LEAD. Good playing to put you in an ordinary positional advantage through regular evasion and manipulation of the playing field and the characters on it is perfectly acceptable. Abusing alternative engines, not even directly related to the fight (the timer) is ludicrous.

Seriously, my main point here is that it's not fair to abusive the defensive capabilities provided by the TIMER, since the timer isn't part of the fight in the first place. That's why STALLING is banned.

So why do you play this terrible game competitively? Its fun casually and nothing more. Put down your controller, unplug your wii, plug in your cube, and play the better game.


I like how you pretty much only made a fuss about a MK doing this to you. There's, what, 35 other character in this game. MK isn't the only play character, good game sir.

I have been planked before, and I planked them back. Holy crap I found a way around it guys.

A decent amount of characters have projectiles too, using them helps. If you find it boring, too bad.

The only reason people want this banned is because its "boring" and "unfair."
Can you show me a tournament that was won by planking? Go ahead, show me a large tournament that was won by planking.

I play Brawl competitively because I enjoy it tremendously, and I am very good at it. I also enjoy Melee, but I am not nearly as good at it, therefore I do not compete. Please do not attempt to turn this into a Brawl vs. Melee debate, because you will nullify your own argument by doing so, proving that you are unable to debate intelligently. Irrefutable evidence of a massive competative following shows that Brawl is viable as a competative game.

I used MK as my example, because MK is the most common character to plank with as he does it the best, due to his ability to fly. Pit is the second best Planker IMO. However, I'm a relatively confident that I could beat you by Planking with Marth. I have done this before in friendlies to experiment, and it gives me quite a stupidly good advantage that I wouldn't ordinarily have, and I've been able to 2 stock or even 3 stock players nearly equal in skill with me.

If there is a timer on the match, and your opponent decides to plank you with a percent advantage, grabbing the other edge and planking back is not a viable option, unless you know something I don't. Please enlighten me.

I do not want Planking banned because it's boring. If that were the case, I'd want MK banned because fighting him is boring at the highest level of play, but I don't think MK should be banned. I will admit that I want Planking banned because it is unfair.

Most tournaments ban planking now, so I cannot point you to a good example of a tournament where planking should be banned. I don't know any top level players that abuse this tactic, because most of them find it ban-worthy/play at tournaments where it is banned. I believe Plank himself only uses this tactic vs. Falco.

Of course, I just realize, I'm horribly off-topic. This is in the wrong thread. The 70 ledge-grab rule is only being suggested as a replacement for the popular rule "Planking is banned." If you want to debate whether or not Planking should be banned, the following thread is much better:

ATTENTION ALL TOURNEY HOSTS - Ban Ledge Stalling

 

[pockyD]

Please direct me to the section of this post where you presented a viable counter argument.

OTHER STUFF I DON'T CARE ABOUT

I don't recall trying to present a counter-argument. Just answering your question

 

[MattDotZeb]

Irrefutable evidence of a massive competative following shows that Brawl is viable as a competative game.

Learn how to spell "competitive" first.



The rest of it I don't care about, I asked you to show me a major tournament that has been won by planking and you couldn't. Good game.

Oh, and I wasn't planning on a Brawl vs Melee debate, I just have fun ragging on the game. :D

 

[Pierce7d]

I don't recall trying to present a counter-argument. Just answering your question

Fair enough. Then I merely point out that reducing the game to characters that can plank is highly destructive towards the competitive value of the game, and that we are discussing this in the wrong thread and should be here: ATTENTION ALL TOURNEY HOSTS - Ban Ledge Stalling

Nevertheless, for tournaments that already have planking banned, the 70 ledge-grab rule is a good one.

 

[Pierce7d]

Learn how to spell "competitive" first.



The rest of it I don't care about, I asked you to show me a major tournament that has been won by planking and you couldn't. Good game.

Oh, and I wasn't planning on a Brawl vs Melee debate, I just have fun ragging on the game. :D

Wow, how humorous. I present to you answers to all of your points, and you respond by pointing out that I struggle with spelling the word competitive. This is true. I've misspelled it many times, and often have to edit posts to correct the mistake. It's even misspelled in the title of my social group. Darn, if only this was somehow on topic.

Also, I'll get over the fact that you're just going to ignore 4/5ths of my points, rofl. I can point you to many tournament matches where Planking is used as a tactic to win the match. Video evidence of such matches are cluttered throughout this very thread. I already told you why no such tournaments have been won with this tactic (and that's just to my knowledge)

I've never heard of a tournament won by the opponent timing out every match. You know why? Stalling is banned. Could you point me to a tournament that was won by stalling. If you can't, supposedly that proves it's not broken, rofl.

 

[Flayl]

Learn how to spell "competitive" first.



The rest of it I don't care about, I asked you to show me a major tournament that has been won by planking and you couldn't. Good game.

Oh, and I wasn't planning on a Brawl vs Melee debate, I just have fun ragging on the game. :D

This is the point where you should get infracted for being terribly stupid.

 

[Fletch]

This is the point where you should get infracted for being terribly stupid.

This is the point where you should get infracted for being terribly stupid.

 

[Hylian]

Cool it with the Flaming people.


Pierce: I actually got kills on Spam while he planked me in our teams match with him in tournament. I've also never had a problem dealing with planking from any MK in singles and I've played with a lot of the top MK players. I don't honestly think MK has that big of an advantage while planking vs the majority of viable characters.

Also, marth CAN spike MK through his uair. And shuttle loop.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Wow you have a lot of posts hylian O.o

 

[Hylian]

Wow you have a lot of posts hylian O.o

I've been here awhile. Most of my posts are not spam as well lol.

Stay on topic though please.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I'm sorry sir, no infractions plz *hides*

But anyway, i think playing around with this rule and see how many grabs actually eliminates (most) planking should be good. I think at the next gigabits in FL we are using that rule since norfair is allowed. I mean, its 70 for 10 min in japan, so it should be 50 for 7 min right?

 

[ShinTwist ScreamPaste]

Why is it any more "unfair" to them than any other character?

Just because they have two ways to grab the edge rather than one doesn't change the reason that they are grabbing the edge to begin with.

The only "real" concern along these lines would be true tether characters like olimar and ivysaur who are "forced" to grab the edge in recovery... and this just becomes part of their natural disadvantage... plus, people still aren't understanding how high 70 really is

Link and Samus' tethers are different, you understand Zair edgegaurding? They use the let go of the ledge, tether for instant regrab for invincibility frames which help their ledge game, Link practicly needs this to get back on stage. Most Link players grab the ledge three more times for each time they're forced to recover.

 

[Adetque]

Link and Samus' tethers are different, you understand Zair edgegaurding? They use the let go of the ledge, tether for instant regrab for invincibility frames which help their ledge game, Link practicly needs this to get back on stage. Most Link players grab the ledge three more times for each time they're forced to recover.

Give Link 140 or so ledge grabs then. Link can't ledge-plank well anyway. Give Samus 100 or so since he can actually ledge plank.

 

[slikvik]

Cool it with the Flaming people.


Pierce: I actually got kills on Spam while he planked me in our teams match with him in tournament. I've also never had a problem dealing with planking from any MK in singles and I've played with a lot of the top MK players. I don't honestly think MK has that big of an advantage while planking vs the majority of viable characters.

Also, marth CAN spike MK through his uair. And shuttle loop.

G&W has plenty of tools to deal with planking. many other characters aren't that fortunate

i was playing chesterr01 and purposely planking and edge hogging in the match to see if i could get near 70 while still playing at my "A" game.

The closest i could get was like 30-40.
.

Same here. I was testing it out on candy and boss(their reactions were pretty hilarious) and when checked the stats I was usually around 30 to 40, with most of the matches going to time or with a minute left. So if I were a TO, I'd probably put the number at 30 so its 10 grabs per stock

 

[OverLade]

Give Link 140 or so ledge grabs then. Link can't ledge-plank well anyway. Give Samus 100 or so since he can actually ledge plank.

It's not even possible to grab the edge 140 times in an "actual" match. >_>

Anybody who's leaving dumb comments, in most normal matches people only grab the edge about 10 times. 70 IS AN ASSLOAD OF LEEWAY. No johns.

And what vik said.

 

[pockyD]

Link and Samus' tethers are different, you understand Zair edgegaurding? They use the let go of the ledge, tether for instant regrab for invincibility frames which help their ledge game, Link practicly needs this to get back on stage. Most Link players grab the ledge three more times for each time they're forced to recover.

why is this any different from other characters letting go and re-grabbing the edge with double jumps? aside from maybe being slightly better but less repeatable?

 

[Psymon]

I could see the logic if its just dropping off and jumping back to the ledge, but what if its for a purpose, such as using an attack or projectile in a defensive manner?

e.g. A Yoshi player drops off the ledge, jumps up and uses his up-B to throw an egg, grabbing the ledge after the egg-throw

Isn't that a fair, defensive strategy that would cause the other player to either approach of try and out-spam the Yoshi player?

 

[MBreeto]

^ People could use it if they have a percent advantage and are trying to run out the clock.
(does that still constitute as planking, or stalling? I'm a little confused)

 

[RyanPF]

I could see the logic if its just dropping off and jumping back to the ledge, but what if its for a purpose, such as using an attack or projectile in a defensive manner?

e.g. A Yoshi player drops off the ledge, jumps up and uses his up-B to throw an egg, grabbing the ledge after the egg-throw

Isn't that a fair, defensive strategy that would cause the other player to either approach of try and out-spam the Yoshi player?

I do this sometimes, but my ledge grabs almost never exceed 20. It's still usable, as long as you don't do it the whole match.

 

[GimR]

Same here. I was testing it out on candy and boss(their reactions were pretty hilarious) and when checked the stats I was usually around 30 to 40, with most of the matches going to time or with a minute left. So if I were a TO, I'd probably put the number at 30 so its 10 grabs per stock

30? I dunno, that might be a little risky, my bro and I are thinking about implementing it at "Brawl 'Til You Fall", but that # would cause a lot of anger. We might go 50-70 if we do it. We'll see I geuess.

 

[Espy Rose]

30? I dunno, that might be a little risky, my bro and I are thinking about implementing it at "Brawl 'Til You Fall", but that # would cause a lot of anger. We might go 50-70 if we do it. We'll see I geuess.

Just for the sake of experimentation...

Why not 45?

Although 50 does sound good...

 

[Hylian]

why is this any different from other characters letting go and re-grabbing the edge with double jumps? aside from maybe being slightly better but less repeatable?

It's different because you retain invincibility, and can jump right from the ledge from teathers, while you have to wait a short while to let go from a normal grab.

Samus/Link players like to do this tech to stay invincible and force a reaction out of their oppenent that they can punish. They can only do it 3 times, but it's still 3 grabs and it's almost always done as it makes it a lot safer for them to get back to the edge.

This also affects match-ups like Samus vs DDD, where samus has to basically stay on the edge the whole game to beat DDD. It's pretty much the only viable strategy in that match-up.

 

[Morrigan]

So...what do we do in those cases IF this gets implemented?

 

[Hylian]

So...what do we do in those cases IF this gets implemented?

Nothing, it just makes those characters worse.

I think this rule is not even close to needed :/. Almost all the viable characters can deal with planking fine, planking has never won a big tournament TMK, it's just a really good strategy that people use. Is it boring? Yes. Stupid? Yes. Broken? I don't think so.

Apparently I'm a minority though :/.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I say put it at 60. Going off what Redhalberd said, that's the most reasonable. i like the idea, it effectively limits planking and should be put into use at all tournaments.

 

[pockyD]

It's different because you retain invincibility, and can jump right from the ledge from teathers, while you have to wait a short while to let go from a normal grab.

Samus/Link players like to do this tech to stay invincible and force a reaction out of their oppenent that they can punish. They can only do it 3 times, but it's still 3 grabs and it's almost always done as it makes it a lot safer for them to get back to the edge.

This also affects match-ups like Samus vs DDD, where samus has to basically stay on the edge the whole game to beat DDD. It's pretty much the only viable strategy in that match-up.

so...

why is this any different from other characters letting go and re-grabbing the edge with double jumps? aside from maybe being slightly better but less repeatable?

the difference is that their edge camp is slightly better but less repeatable

i don't see why it deserves a special mention

 

[Hylian]

so...



the difference is that their edge camp is slightly better but less repeatable

i don't see why it deserves a special mention

It doesn't. You asked why they were different lol.

 

[Falconv1.0]

It's really sad that someone released a game where it would be so easy to check for **** like planking, and didn't do **** about it. And I'm referring to smash in general, it's like they used the fact they were making a 'casual' game as an excuse to be lazy as hell.

 

[Morrigan]

It's really sad that someone released a game where it would be so easy to check for **** like planking, and didn't do **** about it. And I'm referring to smash in general, it's like they used the fact they were making a 'casual' game as an excuse to be lazy as hell.

The Smash team doesn't think about competitive aspects. And if you do find something competitive-like, it's probably because something went wrong and they didn't realize. lol

I'm pretty sure they just threw that "ledge grab count" (and lots of other stuff) there in the results screen just because.

 

[Eaode]

It's really sad that someone released a game where it would be so easy to check for **** like planking, and didn't do **** about it. And I'm referring to smash in general, it's like they used the fact they were making a 'casual' game as an excuse to be lazy as hell.

this is pretty obvious lol

"Hey Lee I was testing Meta Knight vs Dan and I can just stay on the ledge and avoid him the whole match. you think this is a problem?"

"Nah, anybody that does that would be taking the game too seriously anyway."

 

[OverLade]

Nothing, it just makes those characters worse.

I think this rule is not even close to needed :/. Almost all the viable characters can deal with planking fine, planking has never won a big tournament TMK, it's just a really good strategy that people use. Is it boring? Yes. Stupid? Yes. Broken? I don't think so.

Apparently I'm a minority though :/.

The term "viable" characters is a bit unfair.

This also affects match-ups like Samus vs DDD, where samus has to basically stay on the edge the whole game to beat DDD. It's pretty much the only viable strategy in that match-up.

This is something of a contracdiction, because if there are no rules against planking, that's basically making Samus/Pit more viable by ledgecamping, and Falco/Wolf less viable as they can easily be planked. Yet Falco/Wolf are more viable than Samus/Pit anyway.

I think less people would lose sleep over Samus and Pit than Falco and wolf.

Of course, Im biased and that's just my opinion.

 

[Omni]

Heeeere I come to end the thread!

You guys are confusing me. What exactly are you arguing about, and how exactly does it relate to the topic?

 

[OverLade]

Heeeere I come to end the thread!

You guys are confusing me. What exactly are you arguing about, and how exactly does it relate to the topic?

Whether the viability of characters should affect rulesets....

Combo'd.

 

[Omni]

Whether the viability of characters should affect rulesets...

? @ Combo'd.

The "viability", as you say, of characters create unique rules regarding the characters. That's why DDD's infinite and Jiggly stalling are rules. So yes, they do affect rule sets.

Regarding the thread topic, what are we discussing? I've read through it a few times, and it seems things are way off tangent.

 

[OverLade]

? @ Combo'd.

The "viability", as you say, of characters create unique rules regarding the characters. That's why DDD's infinite and Jiggly stalling are rules. So yes, they do affect rule sets.

Regarding the thread topic, what are we discussing? I've read through it a few times, and it seems things are way off tangent.

Yeah, but I was addressing Hylians contradiction.

The question is, who should the rules be in favor of, characters with poor ledgegame, or excellent ledgegame?

 

[Omni]

Rules shouldn't be made to be in anyone's favors.

 

[OverLade]

Rules shouldn't be made to be in anyone's favors.

Should lack of rules be in someone's favor then?

We ban things like D3's infinite because without them being banned....it's pretty gay.

Beating a D3 that can infinite isn't necessarily than beating a planking Metaknight that knows what they're doing....

 

[Magik0722]

how about add another parameter to the rules such as if they grab the edge 70 times AND the match went into sudden death since isnt the point of planking to make the time run out and have a percentage advantage?

 

[Omni]

Beating a D3 that can infinite isn't necessarily than beating a planking Metaknight that knows what they're doing....

What?
(10characters)

 

[OverLade]

What?
(10characters)

Basically, D3's infinite makes characters like Mario/DK/Weegee lose viability.

But ledge planking also makes characters lose viability. Good ledgecamping for certain characters against certain characters is impossible to get around. Im not saying you can't beat them, but it's comparable to avoiding getting grabbed.

Mabye not AS hard, but concerning the whole viability thing it's relevant.