The issue with Ness and Lucas

[Oldskool]

I'm just trying to figure out what they can exactly do with Ness since Lucas pretty much took the moveset and changed one of the moves to IMO avoid Lucas just being a slight character avatar swap. I keep hearing people claim that they can give Ness move that he actually used in MOTHER 2. I ask, what the hell are you people talking about?

Most of Ness' moves in Mother 2 (save PK Kiai/Rockin) are assist and status moves. How is giving him his own attakcs going to be effective?

 

[vesperview]

And why the hell should we discuss what to do with Ness here?

 

[T-major]

well, it's completely pointless to actually come up with an answer to this, because Ness isn't going to be in Brawl anyways... BUT, I'll answer it anyways, because thats how I roll...

Ness uses support PK. if they gave him those, he could have things like PK Counter, PK attack up, PK defence up. stuff like that. it would be different from Lucas, as well as unique in general, due to the new type of abilities it would bring to smash; such as being able to increase the power of your next attack (PK Attack up) and make make the next few phisical attacks do nothing (PK defence up).

...but yeah, Ness is replaced by Lucas, and won't be in brawl. so the above means nothing really...

 

[Layupfreak]

seriously, why not have a new character other that seeing ness. they are the same.

 

[Big-Cat]

seriously, why not have a new character other that seeing ness. they are the same.

Exactly, having in both Ness and Lucas would be rather redundant. While one can argue the Mario Bros. are redundant, you can't compare them to Ness and Lucas. The brothers are meant to be that way.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

well, it's completely pointless to actually come up with an answer to this, because Ness isn't going to be in Brawl anyways... BUT, I'll answer it anyways, because thats how I roll...

Ness uses support PK. if they gave him those, he could have things like PK Counter, PK attack up, PK defence up. stuff like that. it would be different from Lucas, as well as unique in general, due to the new type of abilities it would bring to smash; such as being able to increase the power of your next attack (PK Attack up) and make make the next few phisical attacks do nothing (PK defence up).

...but yeah, Ness is replaced by Lucas, and won't be in brawl. so the above means nothing really...

Ness didn't have Counter. But Lucas can.

 

[axemangx]

All the more reason to do a movesteal then :D


Now THIS would be weird.

Ness with the following moveset.

PK Thunder, PK Ground, PK Counter, and PK Flash.

With a FS being PK Rockin'.

Dont forget, Lucas pulled off a whole special moveset steal.


This is entirely possible.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

All the more reason to do a movesteal then :D


Now THIS would be weird.

Ness with the following moveset.

PK Thunder, PK Ground, PK Counter, and PK Flash.

With a FS being PK Rockin'.

Dont forget, Lucas pulled off a whole special moveset steal.


This is entirely possible.

2 Moves not in Mother 2 = No.

 

[axemangx]

2 Moves not in Mother 2 = No.

Lucas having his whole specials stolen= No.


It'd be possible I say!


GRAWR

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

Lucas having his whole specials stolen= No.


It'd be possible I say!


GRAWR

At least he stole them from Kumatora, who was in Mother 3.

 

[AsbestosBlatant]

lucas is a luigi clone lozl they even have l in there naem


Seriously though I doubt Ness' moves are going to be changed too much outside of lag control. Lucas is just going to work differently and a ways weaker than Ness.

 

[Axel-of-the-Key]

Ness wouldn't have a new moveset anyways.
If they really wanted both, they'd give Lucas a new moveset. It takes more work to make a set of models for Lucas and all of his moves, and then make a new model for Ness and have to start from scratch since Lucas took his moves, than it does to upgrade Ness' model, and then make one for Lucas with his OWN moveset. But, they didn't do that, did they?

 

[axemangx]

Ness wouldn't have a new moveset anyways.
If they really wanted both, they'd give Lucas a new moveset. It takes more work to make a set of models for Lucas and all of his moves, and then make a new model for Ness and have to start from scratch since Lucas took his moves, than it does to upgrade Ness' model, and then make one for Lucas with his OWN moveset. But, they didn't do that, did they?

His specials and FS are stolen


If Ness did it, its entirely possible.

 

[Axel-of-the-Key]

Yes...I know Lucas stole things from other people...But they still had to redo all of the animations for Lucas even though many of his moves were Ness'. If they wanted both, they could have reused Ness' moves for him, thusly also reusing his animations with an upgraded model, and the given Lucas a new moveset, since they had to make his model anyways.

Ness could steal more moves, but it's illogical if they took the time to give Lucas Ness' moveset that Ness would then get his own moveset. Why doesn't Lucas just get his own moveset? It takes less work.

 

[axemangx]

Parts from Paula. And Kuma. And some of his own.


It could work, yo. Most of which has not been used.

 

[Big-Cat]

If Ness was in, why not give him some battle items? Instead of copping out, this could've been done even in the original SSB. Heck, Lucas could've done that as well.

 

[Axel-of-the-Key]

...
You're all missing my point.
Sure, there are abilities that he could use that would make sense.
But, the same goes for Lucas.
Why give Lucas Ness' old moveset and give Ness a new one? You still have to do all the technical work on Lucas even though it's old moves, and you have to do all the technical work on Ness because it's new moves. It doesn't make sense, the developers would do the thing that made their lives easier, not harder. Lucas could very easily have his own moveset, as could Ness, but they chose to give Ness' moveset to Lucas. That means adding in Ness now would give them too much work.

 

[lumberheartwood]

I know people want Ness back, and I do too. I want to see Ness go against Lucas in a full on brawl.

 

[Layupfreak]

They are both the same thing, i dont know why replacing Lucas with Ness caused such a big uproar? I dont see any differience in them besides how they look, seriously.

 

[lumberheartwood]

Layupfreak...Mother fans might retaliate for you making that statement. Hopefully, they aren't going to read that.

I like the little Blonde kid. But I miss playing with the kid who says "Okay!"

 

[Layupfreak]

Layupfreak...Mother fans might retaliate for you making that statement. Hopefully, they aren't going to read that.

I like the little Blonde kid. But I miss playing with the kid who says "Okay!"

oh alright.

 

[OperationJonny]

Ness... Lucas...

They seem equally useless to me.

From what you can see, he's essentially a clone, and is replacing Ness. That being that, I betcha that he's going to be just as bad as Ness was. Maybe his FS will be his redeeming point, but I dont see much more to him than that.

Hopefully though, they actually make him not suck. I'm tired of there being crap characters that had no fighting ground. Playing the same characters because they're inherently better gets stale. =[

 

[Levitas]

lol, Ness only has serious trouble against two dudes in melee. I want to see what lucas brings to the table before writing him off. You remember how awesom marth and mewtwo are at edgeguarding with back airs? I'm gonna bet that having a meteor back air is gonna be the best thing that they changed.

Tech chasing with a disjointed meteor? Edgeguarding with one? Broken? Well, ok, maybe not, but I still think it'll be awesome.

 

[Gundo]

Ness was a great character in SSB64, and I was so estatic when I unlocked him. but I barely touched him in Melee. Lucas was suppose to be in Melee as we all know. and if he did ended up in Melee instead of Ness, I doubt most, if any, of these Ness topics would be here. Honestly, I lost my love for Ness when he was in Melee. But I understand what you are saying. and I do suppose it does suck not having him. But alot of people might find Lucas alot more likable in Brawl, just give him a chance instead of judging him right off Ness's Bat. (lame I know)

 

[Insurance Salesman]

You know, you could just make Ness an alternate costume of Lucas or something, and then this problem would just go away. It's not that outlandish an idea, people!

 

[lumberheartwood]

Yeah. I agree. Ness can be an "alternate costume" if they wanted to. Solves the case of clones actually. Wario and Wario Original are clones off each other actually lmao.

 

[Williampettysan]

Sakurai said that will only be for Wario so it won't happen.

 

[Gundo]

Sakurai said that will only be for Wario so it won't happen.

Actually, he never said "Wario will be the only one with an Alternate Custume." he said more on the lines of that he was special. However, he also stated that all the characters in Smash Bros is special. soooo, there still leaves the possiblity of unlocking Alt.Custumes

 

[Levitas]

lol, they're different characters from different games. I'd be more upset if he was a costume than if he were out. It'd be a little insulting to Ness, I think.

 

[PrincessPeach12]

I don't think so...

I don't think Ness will be in Brawl becuase in Lucas's special moves update on dojo Sakurai said "There is this kid named Ness who has appeared in every Smash bros up until now"

 

[Noa.]

I would love Ness to be in, but unfortunetly, his chances are so low, that I dont think he will be in, but there is always help that he can come back as his 64 version.

 

[mario brawler]

I don't think Ness will be in Brawl becuase in Lucas's special moves update on dojo Sakurai said "There is this kid named Ness who has appeared in every Smash bros up until now"

still he also said "is it possible he can even surpass ness?"eh?most people would liken ness and lucas to battle it out and see who's better

 

[Deku Boy]

Ness moveset with his own moves:

Standard Special: PK Flash-Same as Melee.

Side Special: PSI Hypnosis- Ness sends s psychic wave forward out of his head. if it hits an opponent, the opponent will fall asleep for a short time, which extends the more damage they have.

Up Special: PSI Teleport-In the air, it functions somewhat like PSI Teleport Beta, and you have to rapidly press B to make Ness Spin fast enough to Teleport. On the ground, it functions like PSI Teleport Alpha, and you run around and gradually built up speed. The move covers an incredible distance, and if an opponent contacts you while you are performing the move or if they're at the exact position where you come out of the Teleport, you'll explode and do damage to them. You can limit the distance by tilting the Control Stick less in the direction you want to travel.

Down Special: PSI Life Up-A chargeable move. For every full second the move is charged, Ness will recover 2% as he executes the move. The maximum charge time is 5 seconds. If he is hit during the charge, he will not recover any damage. When the move finally executes, there is a flash of light around Ness, and any character in the flash will also recover that amount of health, making it a risky move to use.

Final Smash: PK Rockin'- Ness stands with both hands clutching his head, his eyes closed, concentrating. He then opens his eyes and a flurry of psychic energy blasts out of his head in to his left and right. Anyone caught in the energy will be damaged immensely, but the move has absolutely no knockback. It simply holds them in place as it drills them with damage, and lets you pick off your weakened opponents afterwards.


That isn't "the issue", really. The problem is that you'll be taking a familiar character and completely changing everything people know about him. I'll admit that it's possible for Sakurai to change a character's special moves, heck, Sakurai changed Mario's Down Special already, however, I don't think changing a character's entire moveset is a viable option. Ness has been all but confirmed out, unfortunately.

 

[Zek]

Lucas is not a Ness clone. He has a completely new set of standard attacks, and we don't know how he plays. I wish people would get that straight.

But I still think Ness is gone. It would make zero sense to give new specials to him instead of Lucas, and it makes even less sense for them both to have the same specials. All signs point to Lucas being his replacement. I'm guessing Sakurai wanted to make Lucas a new character but give him a familiar feel for Ness fans, so he inherited Ness' specials and that's the end of it.

I'm a big Earthbound fan and I liked Ness, but I'm not really sad to see him gone. His character design was always really generic and bland. Lucas just seems more interesting.

 

[Macc]

Ness moveset with his own moves:

Standard Special: PK Flash-Same as Melee.

Side Special: PSI Hypnosis- Ness sends s psychic wave forward out of his head. if it hits an opponent, the opponent will fall asleep for a short time, which extends the more damage they have.

Up Special: PSI Teleport-In the air, it functions somewhat like PSI Teleport Beta, and you have to rapidly press B to make Ness Spin fast enough to Teleport. On the ground, it functions like PSI Teleport Alpha, and you run around and gradually built up speed. The move covers an incredible distance, and if an opponent contacts you while you are performing the move or if they're at the exact position where you come out of the Teleport, you'll explode and do damage to them. You can limit the distance by tilting the Control Stick less in the direction you want to travel.

Down Special: PSI Life Up-A chargeable move. For every full second the move is charged, Ness will recover 2% as he executes the move. The maximum charge time is 5 seconds. If he is hit during the charge, he will not recover any damage. When the move finally executes, there is a flash of light around Ness, and any character in the flash will also recover that amount of health, making it a risky move to use.

Final Smash: PK Rockin'- Ness stands with both hands clutching his head, his eyes closed, concentrating. He then opens his eyes and a flurry of psychic energy blasts out of his head in to his left and right. Anyone caught in the energy will be damaged immensely, but the move has absolutely no knockback. It simply holds them in place as it drills them with damage, and lets you pick off your weakened opponents afterwards.


That isn't "the issue", really. The problem is that you'll be taking a familiar character and completely changing everything people know about him. I'll admit that it's possible for Sakurai to change a character's special moves, heck, Sakurai changed Mario's Down Special already, however, I don't think changing a character's entire moveset is a viable option. Ness has been all but confirmed out, unfortunately.

I like your idea for a new moveset, reminds me of the multiple posts I made on the official smash bros forum about why Ness needs moves he actually had in Mother 2(Earthbound). Ironically, I never assumed there would be so much negativity towards his return until Lucas's special moves were released. Ness is my favorite Smash character and I refuse to think of his not returning, mainly because I'm a huge Mother/Earthbound Fanboy. Although, I believe I have a good opinion to why I think that, so hear me out!

1. Ness has been in since the original.

2. He is a nationally known character, compared to Lucas who is JP ONRY!

3. Ness could share a Mario-Luigi relationship with Lucas and stay pretty much the same despite a few tweaks to make him play better than he did in Melee. Also, if you read about the B moves on Lucas's character page, you will notice they are different. For instance, Lucas's Psi Magnet only covers an area infront of him, where as Ness's covers his whole body.

4. Ness has many more moves besides his B set and if he doesn't make it back who will get them?

5. Understanding rhetoric would help you comprehend that Masahiro Sakurai is a sick $(&@(*&@# who likes to tease people into creating hype over his video game in one way or another. All this bs related to Ness not returning is a perfect example! Just because it says things like "surpass Ness" and "has been in the series up until now" doesn't necessarily mean he won't return.

6. Who says Sakurai was planning on having Lucas from the original? I'm pretty sure I have never seen that on the Dojo.

I don't understand why Lucas was added at all. Why should there only be main protagonists added when the series has alot more interesting characters to offer? I have played all three Mother/Earthbound games and I think it is great that the series is getting representation beyond Mother 2(Earthbound). I have also come to understand that Ness was given PSI moves that Paula/Poo used, because he was meant to be the lone representative of his series, much like Yoshi. Although, Mother/Earthbound is no longer a cult following and has caught thousands of gamers interests because of the Smash series.

If all else fails Ness could return as an alternate costume for Lucas. Eventhough, in doing so it would reject all of the moves Ness had in the previous games. I am sure Ness will come back in one way or another. Besides, why should Mother/Earthbound not get two representatives when it has grown in popularity since the original? Starmen.net is proof that there is a huge following of the series, so why would Sakurai be a dooshbag and ignore it? Oh well, there is pretty much no logic to that guy, so we will just have to wait and see what happens. Regardless of what gets put on his site, I am sure there will be many things leaked out once the game is actually released in Japan on the 24th.

Macc out

PK Rock Rock on! _ _Y There better be some head banging and air guitar in that final smash!

 

[Da Black Rabbit]

Being the fact Doctor Mario was just a heavy Mario with the SAME MOVES, I don't think hope is completely gone for Ness.

The dude's an OG of Smash and they should keep him. His character design is kinda bland, yeah, but his smash attacks were some of the most creative. The baw fights with a bat and a yo-yo.

Which is greatness by the way...

Though I'm not good with Ness I would be disappointed if he got scraped for Lucas...

Mario can get two clones? Link can get a lightweight revision? Fox can get an improvement? (In my opinion) Why can't this go around have Ness with his own playable altercation?

 

[OysterMeister]

Lucas is not a Ness clone. He has a completely new set of standard attacks, and we don't know how he plays. I wish people would get that straight.

I think you're one of maybe five people on this forum who understand this.

But I still think Ness is gone. It would make zero sense to give new specials to him instead of Lucas, and it makes even less sense for them both to have the same specials. All signs point to Lucas being his replacement.

Sakurai said both Lucas and Ness are from the same PK family. I'm not sure what that means entirely, but the implication seems to be that Sakurai finds Ness and Lucas to be similar characters. Given this, I'd say it would make sense for Lucas and Ness to be similar in the same style as Mario and Luigi, so the idea of them sharing special moves with slight differences between them isn't so far fetched.

 

[shadenexus18]

I think you're one of maybe five people on this forum who understand this.



[/COLOR]

I agree with you that one PK warrior is enough, but it's still possible for the Earthbound/Mother duo can be the just like Mario and Luigi.

 

[OysterMeister]

I agree with you that one PK warrior is enough, but it's still possible for the Earthbound/Mother duo can be the just like Mario and Luigi.

Um, that was my point, that Lucas and Ness could be like Mario and Luigi. All the signs are there: Lucas has special moves that are similar but just different enough so that they can't be used in the same way, standard moves that are all his own, and Sakurai appears to view them as similar characters as well.
If/when Ness returns, he wouldn't have to change a thing.

 

[Zycor]

From what I have read, and this is on the official Melee site, Ness wasn't supposed to be in Melee, Lucas was. Mother 3 was pushed back in date so they decided to use Ness instead. I'm not a fan of Ness, nor am I a fan of Mother/Earthbound... If he's back, big deal... I don't care either way, if he's not in I'll feel sympathy for his fans, of which I am not.

Either way, Ness could be in... Lucas and him don't have the same movesets, Mario and Luigi didn't either. A clone would be an exact replica of the other character, but even clones play nothing like the original character they're based on.