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The Green Lesbian is back! Learn sm4sh Samus from Brawl's best Samus player! Updated 2/19/2015!

Hapajin

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2:05 Great seeing Zair used that effectively.
3:18 Did you intentionally space the screw attack to stage spike like that? That was pretty cool.
7:44 I dunno, that grab looked really solid. I was confused for a second
13:35 oh so pretty, what a comeback
14:33 that was a cool mixup there
15:02 lol the rest of the match was great

Overall this was really cool to see your playstyle. Your grab game looks fantastic, and it seems like you are very careful with your punishes and you don't get too greedy which is cool to see. I feel like a lot of new SSB4 Samus players are too aggressive, and it's nice to see your patient playstyle rewarded.
 

Xyro77

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Almost everything Samus has on the ground puts you at a disadvantage (frame wise) if the foe shields. So I've learned to wait it out, keep myself spaced and don't take too much.

I felt this is def one of my better sets though. I just wish I would have pummeled more. It's free damage I didn't take advantage of.
 
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FlAlex

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Wonderful battle! Learned so much from these (learn when to grab better, Uair is our best melee aerial and can be used as for approaches but mix it up a bit, learn to spike because Samus can't kill easily, Zair is our premier aerial, do not confront on ground except with PP Ftilt and dash attack.)

Have you gotten PP mastered yet? I feel like that maybe the answer to Samus' problems.
 

Xyro77

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We have a few players in my city who have perfected it. It doesn't appear to be extremely useful outside of very fast characters like fox/diddy. I could see it being ok for Samus but nothing ground breaking.

We also discovered that once your controller has been broken in or the control stick has stopped being stuff, PP is very hard to do.
 

FlAlex

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We have a few players in my city who have perfected it. It doesn't appear to be extremely useful outside of very fast characters like fox/diddy. I could see it being ok for Samus but nothing ground breaking.

We also discovered that once your controller has been broken in or the control stick has stopped being stuff, PP is very hard to do.
Ugh. Was hoping for a break-through for Samus' ground game.

Do you feel PP will be necessary for competitive play like wavedashing in Melee?
 

Xyro77

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Ugh. Was hoping for a break-through for Samus' ground game.

Do you feel PP will be necessary for competitive play like wavedashing in Melee?
PP does have its uses but no it's not as pivotal as z-cancelling (ssb64) or wave dash+L-cancel (melee).

Smash 4's "game changing" tech is the same as Brawl's. It's buffering. Buffering is what helps create combos/link moves and make everything come out as fast as possible.

The more I play people and the more I see results, I am seriously worried that Samus is not good at all. So buffering will be a MUST if you wanna be able to barely compete at higher levels.

Edit: as for a "break through" well the game is 3 months old so we still have plenty of time to find things.

Ground game is very much unexplored. I believe that if Samus is constantly moving and attacking with pivot jabs/ pivot tilts/quick short hop U-airs, we may be on to something.

Also, though it's very risky, I am working on ledge play like I did for brawl. I have ideas but I am not sure if they are sound.
 
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FlAlex

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PP does have its uses but no it's not as pivotal as z-cancelling (ssb64) or wave dash+L-cancel (melee).

Smash 4's "game changing" tech is the same as Brawl's. It's buffering. Buffering is what helps create combos/link moves and make everything come out as fast as possible.

The more I play people and the more I see results, I am seriously worried that Samus is not good at all. So buffering will be a MUST if you wanna be able to barely compete at higher levels.

Edit: as for a "break through" well the game is 3 months old so we still have plenty of time to find things.

Ground game is very much unexplored. I believe that if Samus is constantly moving and attacking with pivot jabs/ pivot tilts/quick short hop U-airs, we may be on to something.

Also, though it's very risky, I am working on ledge play like I did for brawl. I have ideas but I am not sure if they are sound.
What is buffering? Heard of it but it was never explained like L-canceling/wavedashing/etc. was for melee.

Aren't we all worried about Samus? (I think kirby and Marth have a brighter future right now).

Sure, we have time and I've heard Capt. Falcon went from the low tier of Melee to top as the meta progressed but that doesn't mean it will happen for Samus.

I feel her ground game is screwed. You said it yourself that all her ground moves are punishable on block and her moves lack knockback and damage. I can only imagine her aerial game being even remotely usable but I'll let the final verdict be for the professionals.

Do any of those ledge plays involve her greatest move, THE MORPH BOMB (lel)!!!??? But seriously, any new ideas for that move?

On an off note, I know I constantly have something to say on these threads and they are almost always negative. Am I intoxicating the place or is my pessimism mutual? I'll stop if need be, just let me know.

Best of luck, Xyro!
 

Xyro77

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It's hard not to be negative when a character you love isn't good at the moment. Things CAN change but after experiencing MELEE/BRAWL, I'm not expecting too much to change unless a patch happens or Diddy gets banned.

I don't wanna say much about my ledge stuff because it is very risky and I don't want people to copy me just yet because it may be a dead end. Just know that I'm working on it.

No. Bombs suck and are borderline useless. Melee was the only time where they were good.

Let me be clear on the ground game. Vs someone like Ganon or charizard, SAMUS is totally fine. It's the sonic/diddy/shiek/Mac/Yoshi/Greninja/rosalina/fox....etc you gotta worry about. The only thing I can think of is keep moving and jab/tilt/pivot when safe. Samus requires 2-3x as much work as the ones I named.
 

FlAlex

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It's hard not to be negative when a character you love isn't good at the moment. Things CAN change but after experiencing MELEE/BRAWL, I'm not expecting too much to change unless a patch happens or Diddy gets banned.

I don't wanna say much about my ledge stuff because it is very risky and I don't want people to copy me just yet because it may be a dead end. Just know that I'm working on it.

No. Bombs suck and are borderline useless. Melee was the only time where they were good.

Let me be clear on the ground game. Vs someone like Ganon or charizard, SAMUS is totally fine. It's the sonic/diddy/shiek/Mac/Yoshi/Greninja/rosalina/fox....etc you gotta worry about. The only thing I can think of is keep moving and jab/tilt/pivot when safe. Samus requires 2-3x as much work as the ones I named.
Just wanted to make sure I wasn't becoming annoying.

Pretty safe to say there won't be a patch and Diddy doesn't deserve a ban.

Why not share the ledge ideas? The more people who try the more experimenting we can get done and the faster Samus can grow. Come on. You help us so much. Let us return the favor.

Could we see you go against some users who like the bomb? I hear it's pretty good as a wall (when's it's safe to use) and for covering all ledge options. This way you can show us that they aren't as useful as they envision. The bombs work for me as a get-away from juggling, a brief wall, and covering ledge options but I haven't been to any tourneys yet so it could just be my opponents being impatient/unexperienced

I'll keep those MU's in mind.

Another off topic subject: be on the look out for the Zelda mains. They've been spamming the Lucina threads and ZSS threads with the most irrelevant dribble. It's unlikely they would come to such an under-populated forum but just be warned it's a possibility. Really don't want them here when Samus needs as much work as possible.
 

BlackCephie

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It's hard not to be negative when a character you love isn't good at the moment. Things CAN change but after experiencing MELEE/BRAWL, I'm not expecting too much to change unless a patch happens or Diddy gets banned.

I don't wanna say much about my ledge stuff because it is very risky and I don't want people to copy me just yet because it may be a dead end. Just know that I'm working on it.

No. Bombs suck and are borderline useless. Melee was the only time where they were good.

Let me be clear on the ground game. Vs someone like Ganon or charizard, SAMUS is totally fine. It's the sonic/diddy/shiek/Mac/Yoshi/Greninja/rosalina/fox....etc you gotta worry about. The only thing I can think of is keep moving and jab/tilt/pivot when safe. Samus requires 2-3x as much work as the ones I named.
I know you've expressed your disapproval of bombs before, but I really think you should give them more chance against those pesky characters you named.
 

IsmaR

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I get where you're all coming from with the praise for bombs (I was the one advocating for them back in Brawl days), but Xyro has a point. At high level play they are little more than a nuisance to people, especially faster/rushdown characters that will/can punish you for them. They've even been heavily nerfed for recovery, so short of mindgames/creating mix-ups with them (as in not overusing them to the point the opponent starts expecting/picking apart your patterns), they should be used seldom at high level play. Though customs are a different story.

The one place I do think is being heavily overlooked is her off stage game. Whilst the nerfs to D-air and Samus' recovery did drastically neuter the presence we had before/in past games, Samus remains a constant threat with both her aerials (F-air/N-air and B-air in particular) and missiles/Z-air/Charge Shots for disrupting opponents off stage. Given the right elements, like stages with walls like Omega Boxing Ring/Duck Hunt, and the right amount of rage, Samus can go insanely deep/far to secure kills against even the most reliable of recoveries. Fastfalling F-air + Charge Shot are probably the most potent kill moves anyone could ask for for this.

Another off topic subject: be on the look out for the Zelda mains. They've been spamming the Lucina threads and ZSS threads with the most irrelevant dribble. It's unlikely they would come to such an under-populated forum but just be warned it's a possibility. Really don't want them here when Samus needs as much work as possible.
I mean this with no disrespect, but given the inactivity of the boards, this is probably the last place they'd think to come.

Plus they used all the good Samus/Other M jokes on the ZSS boards, lol
 

BlackCephie

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I get where you're all coming from with the praise for bombs (I was the one advocating for them back in Brawl days), but Xyro has a point. At high level play they are little more than a nuisance to people, especially faster/rushdown characters that will/can punish you for them. They've even been heavily nerfed for recovery, so short of mindgames/creating mix-ups with them (as in not overusing them to the point the opponent starts expecting/picking apart your patterns), they should be used seldom at high level play. Though customs are a different story.

The one place I do think is being heavily overlooked is her off stage game. Whilst the nerfs to D-air and Samus' recovery did drastically neuter the presence we had before/in past games, Samus remains a constant threat with both her aerials (F-air/N-air and B-air in particular) and missiles/Z-air/Charge Shots for disrupting opponents off stage. Given the right elements, like stages with walls like Omega Boxing Ring/Duck Hunt, and the right amount of rage, Samus can go insanely deep/far to secure kills against even the most reliable of recoveries. Fastfalling F-air + Charge Shot are probably the most potent kill moves anyone could ask for for this.


I mean this with no disrespect, but given the inactivity of the boards, this is probably the last place they'd think to come.

Plus they used all the good Samus/Other M jokes on the ZSS boards, lol
I am definitely interested in seeing more trip and big bomb use. They seem far superior.
 

Xyro77

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Though I cannot stop anybody, I ask that yall please keep custom move talk out of my thread. The tournament standard is NO CUSTOM MOVES and so talking about customs is like talking about items....it's not needed In a thread about REAL samus and it will not help us get better with REAL samus.


Anyways, next weekend I'll be at a tournament so I'll try to get some more videos.

Does youtube allow you to put voice over your videos? Does it have a tool that lets you do that?
 
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Los4Muros

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You couldn't have picked a better way to celebrate post number 200. I really enjoyed the way you did a kill with Zair. Recently I saw it on a Zero Suit Samus, but never thought of applying it on Samus. The second kill was incredible too. Killing the opponent with the Screw attack making him bounce from the stage to his death was genius! Also those mind games you did with the Screw attack are also a good option.

I still have in question whether you should be using bombs in those free chances you get, but then again you're developing such a unique style that I wouldn't want you to get distracted from what you're learning to do. By maybe give them a chance? You also use Bair every now and then. As a Zero Suit Samus main in Brawl, Bair was something I've had to learn to use at the very best. I couldn't waste a single opportunity to use it or combine in with Dsmash. On this Smash I've noticed Samus has a very similar Bair with high potential. The situations in which you get to land a hit with it are low, yet if these chances appear, I take them no question. Very few use it properly, but I'm glad somebody's showing us how you get the job done. The great aspect you show in your second match was no doubt the pivoting. You make grabs look so easy and like it's a thing you should be doing every five seconds. The PP grabs you land are so good and even if they miss, you seem to always set the perfect location to avoid the punish. You use meteors pretty good, but that not new.
Anyways Xyro, so far this is my favorite match I've seen you play. You got a lot better compared to previous matches. I think your Samus is finally beginning to shape up for future big tournaments. Like you said: Samus might be a Mid-Tier at the very most. But you got to do a lot with a Low Tier Samus, so having a Mid-Tier this time around makes me wonder what crazy moves you'll come up with this generation. Please do keep it up.
 

Xyro77

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Yeah I am slowly leaving my brawl style behind and so I'm starting to get better a lot more quickly. I'm glad I have those older vids because I can really see improvement.

As for bombs, I can try but I've always found better ways to edge guard or I am just not thinking of trying bombs in the heat of the moment.

In brawl I worked really hard on pivot grabs and I THINK those grabs come out even faster in smash 4 so if that's true.....I AM HYPE
 

FlAlex

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[quote="IsmaR, post: 18328831, member: 77780"
I mean this with no disrespect, but given the inactivity of the boards, this is probably the last place they'd think to come.

Plus they used all the good Samus/Other M jokes on the ZSS boards, lol
[/quote]

I see no disrespect. I know their appearances are a long shot but if they do just be ready for some class A trolls. Plus this is the most active thread in the Samus forums, correct? Actually as a mod couldn't you just remove them if they were to come around?

But back on topic, Best of luck at that tourny, Xyro!
 

BlackCephie

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2:05 Great seeing Zair used that effectively.
3:18 Did you intentionally space the screw attack to stage spike like that? That was pretty cool.
7:44 I dunno, that grab looked really solid. I was confused for a second
13:35 oh so pretty, what a comeback
14:33 that was a cool mixup there
15:02 lol the rest of the match was great

Overall this was really cool to see your playstyle. Your grab game looks fantastic, and it seems like you are very careful with your punishes and you don't get too greedy which is cool to see. I feel like a lot of new SSB4 Samus players are too aggressive, and it's nice to see your patient playstyle rewarded.
Agreed. Very good stuff, Xyro. I love the spacing and use of falling uair especially.
 

Los4Muros

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Yeah I am slowly leaving my brawl style behind and so I'm starting to get better a lot more quickly. I'm glad I have those older vids because I can really see improvement.

As for bombs, I can try but I've always found better ways to edge guard or I am just not thinking of trying bombs in the heat of the moment.

In brawl I worked really hard on pivot grabs and I THINK those grabs come out even faster in smash 4 so if that's true.....I AM HYPE
I honestly think that once you get to know Samus better, you won't wanna return to old Brawl Samus. Yeah, you'll still love her for the whole character you constructed. But I think that if you keep it up, you'll get to build a better Samus in Smash 4. Let's hope so...
 

Xyro77

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Sadly, I have a lot more things in my life that require priority over smash 4. So I think the major discoveries and major advanced for s4mus will come from you all. I'm just trying to lay some ground work and give out ideas. I'm still entering events and recording vids but it's def not at the pace it was in Brawl.







Back on topic......

I'm brawl, I knew in month 1 that Samus would absolutely be low tier. She lacked the tools and thus the options to be anything good. So instead of trying to win in a straight up battle vs a higher tiered (and probably disadvantageous MU) character, I resort to stage tricks and using the stage to my advantage. Zairing through the stage, for example, is one way.

So what I am about to tell you should work better in sm4sh than it did in brawl. I've been trying it out on wifi but wifi is NEVER the place to say "this works for sure" so there is still a chance that this may not be as good as I think it is.


Are you ready? Keep reading!!!


For characters that have to use their hurt box (hands/feet/head/body) to do damage to you, I have found something rather useful......platforms.

Let's take battlefield for example.

1. At some point during the match (preferably when the foe is at 90% or above) get the percent lead so that the enemy is forced to approach you. This is KEY!

2. Jump on and stay on those platforms. All will work but the higher the better.

3. Sm4sh doesn't like characters doing multiple aerials out of a short hop/full jump so if the opponent attacks you (I assume you are shielding the attack on the platform) with good spacing, power shield it and drop from the platform with a FF a Uair (see if there is a follow up). They shouldn't have time to do another aerial unless it's some one like pika.

Now, if they space poorly when Attacking you on the platform, powershield the attack and Up+B. Sm4sh allows Samus to kill at 130% with up+b and sometimes as low as 100% (vs lighter characters) while on platforms. Now what if you had rage? It would override their DI and still kill early. NOW what if you did this on counter pick stages like delfino or halberd? These stages have smaller ceilings that most stages so you would kill even EARLIER.
 
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DungeonMaster

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There is a bug with up-B incidentally, I killed a jiggly the other day at 25% with the final hit of a grounded up-B on omega. Was weird.
I really need to post some video...
 

Xyro77

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I believe that the first hit and the last hit (maybe 2nd to last?) are the ones that send you up to heaven.

If the foe DIs the first hit, they can skip all the other hits. If this happens, they will LAUNCH sky high and it can kill very early. The same thing kinda happens with either the final hit or the 2nd to final hit.

Kinda reminds me of the up+b OHKO with mii brawler. http://youtu.be/RoDlLOVvdT4
 
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DungeonMaster

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Yep, that's exactly what happened. I think the multi-hit move is coded with many small vectors keeping the big vector down, but clearly when that lone hit happens, watch out!
The guy switched his tag to "wtf?!" lol.
 

FlAlex

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Has anyone been able to perform a "Corner Dash Pivot Slide" with Samus yet? (there was just an article released on the main page about it).

I'll go try it for myself but I can't even PP yet, so don't expect much from me.
 

Xyro77

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I don't see a use for it in terms of Samus but I do see Many applications for Characters with fast grabs and multi hit jabs or combo moves.

Perfext pivoting damages controllers and so does this so I won't b doing it much.
 
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This shouldn't damage a controller unless you're doing the dash dance method. Just using it as a turn around works fine.

tbh I feel like Samus' walk is almost as good as things like this and PP.
 

FlAlex

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I just got done trying the "Corner Dash Pivot Slide" tech. Samus can't do it without a corner and even then the boost is minimal. Now my man, Marth on the other hand... : )
Perfext pivoting damages controllers and so does this so I won't b doing it much.
I was worried about that too. Even trying to perform these techs seems stressful for controllers.

tbh I feel like Samus' walk is almost as good as things like this and PP.
then there's no point in even attempting these techs.
 

Xyro77

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Having a hammer, screw driver and pliers is more useful than having only a hammer. Even if you just want to hammer down a nail.
 
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Xygonn

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Yeah I am slowly leaving my brawl style behind and so I'm starting to get better a lot more quickly. I'm glad I have those older vids because I can really see improvement.

As for bombs, I can try but I've always found better ways to edge guard or I am just not thinking of trying bombs in the heat of the moment.

In brawl I worked really hard on pivot grabs and I THINK those grabs come out even faster in smash 4 so if that's true.....I AM HYPE
I use bombs to edge guard a lot. If you pop it off with the right timing just past the edge it will hit them before they can snap on, and pop them up OVER the edge a bit to land a down tilted f-smash. I get very good kills with this on FG matches. I'm not really any good at capturing this sort of thing on video, but maybe I can try later with my cell phone to show what I'm talking about. This works well on lots of characters because a high recovery isn't safe against many of Samus's other options so this punishes a low recovery without having to put yourself off stage.
 

FlAlex

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I use bombs to edge guard a lot. If you pop it off with the right timing just past the edge it will hit them before they can snap on, and pop them up OVER the edge a bit to land a down tilted f-smash. I get very good kills with this on FG matches. I'm not really any good at capturing this sort of thing on video, but maybe I can try later with my cell phone to show what I'm talking about. This works well on lots of characters because a high recovery isn't safe against many of Samus's other options so this punishes a low recovery without having to put yourself off stage.
Yes please! Some footage would be nice!
 

FlAlex

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Having a hammer, screw driver and pliers is more useful than having only a hammer. Even if you just want to hammer down a nail.
Unless they break my hammer....

I understand what you are getting at. Best not write off PP and these techs as useless but to use them sparingly and when the moment is right. (Very sparingly. Controllers aren't cheap).
 

Xygonn

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Yes please! Some footage would be nice!

Not a perfect example as toon link overshoots the edge a bit anyway, but it helps get the point accross. I was going to destroy a Rob with it, but he avoided the bomb by moving away from the stage and couldn't get back. Should have saved that replay too, just to show what the edge bomb makes people do. I haven't had much time on FG since the last post, and people kept recovering high for some stupid reason.

Also, the first few frames are of me whiffing on the same maneuver.

See next post, I know double posting is bad but I need to have ten posts to post a link.

https://vid.me/bhMd

The sound is my toddler playing with cars on the floor, not my narration.
 
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FlAlex

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https://vid.me/bhMd

The sound is my toddler playing with cars on the floor, not my narration.
Not bad. Was hoping for a better launch angle so I'll save this for those I can't seem to gimp. I'll have to add this to my list of options. Thanks for the vid!

PS: I rewatched it just to listen to your child. Sooo cute!! Was s/he saying Ganondorf?
 

Xygonn

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Not bad. Was hoping for a better launch angle so I'll save this for those I can't seem to gimp. I'll have to add this to my list of options. Thanks for the vid!

PS: I rewatched it just to listen to your child. Sooo cute!! Was s/he saying Ganondorf?
Down smash is an option for a lower angle on the same setup, I haven't tried it much, but I'll see if it's any better for certain characters/situations.

I don't think he is saying Ganondorf. Maybe "Goes in door". The doors on his bus open.
 

Terrazi Terrajin

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Almost everything Samus has on the ground puts you at a disadvantage (frame wise) if the foe shields. So I've learned to wait it out, keep myself spaced and don't take too much.

I felt this is def one of my better sets though. I just wish I would have pummeled more. It's free damage I didn't take advantage of.
At 7:50 in your vid you perform a turn-around charge shot in the air, how is this done?
 

IsmaR

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It's popularly known as B-reversing/sticking.

Pressing the special button while in neutral position (to do Charge Shot) > immediately flick control stick in the opposite direction you're facing. Basically the same way you'd reverse Captain Falcon or Ganondorf's neutral B, but much more strict timing.

Also please don't double post, @ Xygonn Xygonn
 

Luviant X

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Messages
117
Location
MD
NNID
Luviant_X
Switch FC
SW-2346-6627-6402
Hey Xyro (or anyone),

I've been having trouble getting kills. My opponents have been surviving to high percentages because of it. For the most part, I get kills from Up + B, fmash (if I can land it), or edgeguarding aerials. Should I aim to land more fsmashes and bairs? What's your take?

Second question is, what are the best stages (in general and for counter picks such as Delfino or Duck Hunt) for Samus?

Thanks in advance for the help.
 
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