The Green Lesbian is back! Learn sm4sh Samus from Brawl's best Samus player! Updated 2/19/2015!

[Los4Muros]

Nice videos Xyro! You have a very different game style from players I've seen so far. I never considered using Up B as a punish. That's good considering Samus lacks speed in most of her moves to punish. Missiles aren't an option, grab's too slow. All I ever go for is a Jab or a some of the tilts. But if the opponent is close enough, I guess Up B is the best option?

Also, against C. Falcon you used the meteor as a recovery and it actually worked. How much would you recommend doing this when the chance appears? For ledge play I always go with Zair, Fair or Uair. But I really liked that Dair. Unpredictable and if it hits, could do some damage.

 

[Xyro77]

Jab is extremely dangerous to use at low and Mid percents because it has low KnockBack and thus can be easily punished. That is why I use Up+B. Samus's UP+B kinda sucks the enemy in if they poorly space an Attack. So what I do is allow them to attack my shield and instantly up+B. It's a free 10+ damage AND in smash 4 it can KO most characters after 130% if use on a platform.

As for the rising Dair spike on falcon. I only do it to enemies who have UP+B moves that don't hurt me (Ganon/falcon/villager....etc). Falcons only hurts if he grabs you out of his up+b so I felt a dair would do well.

And yes, I play very different from what you are use to. I created the best (imo) way to play brawl samus and I'm still doing it in smash 4. It requires massive amounts of tweaking though because smash 4 is not brawl and thus brawl tactics don't work too well here. I am having a hard time adjusting.

 

[Los4Muros]

Xyro, now that you've been playing a bit more with Samus. What do you think of her? Samus from Brawl was one of the lowest in the Tier List, yet you were able to handle her pretty well. I've watched some of your matches and was amazed by some of the weird things you would constantly come up with. Your ledge play, Dair combos and missile games made me regret not ever giving Samus a chance in Brawl.
I know SSB4 Samus has a whole new gameplay, which I imagine is very confusing, yet she isn't considered as low as she was in Brawl. I've seen her been used in some tournaments, although they never get far off. But considering that Sakurai said no planned patches for the future makes me wonder what awaits for Samus in the future considering the buffs some low tiers received while our favorite bounty hunter, nothing. Then again, she is a character who has been completely redefined so we can't see her full potential just yet and new gameplay videos keep popping out with whole new strategies and ideas on how to use her. I have hope that she will at the end be at least a Mid Tier. Or that after a few EVOs or Apex, Nintendo decides to launch a new patch seeing that the game isn't fairly balanced. If this were to happen, to have my main from one day to the other get her buffs, would really make all my efforts be worth it.

I've seen people come up with some good tricks for this new Samus. Some using bombs or missiles as part of their play style, which completely contradicts the way you use her. Then I see you using Samus with a lot of weird tricks and mind games. This too gives me hope that we still don't understand her. This is the first Smash Bros in which I actually take some time to learn about her, compared to what I understand, is your years of experience of thousands and thousands of matches you have had with previous versions of her and can compare it with this new one. Not to mention how well you know the meta game. Sometimes you talk about things I can't understand. So tell us, so far does Samus have a chance? Have you seen something that buffs her like that Zair regenerating attacks. Are bombs useful at high level matches? Or will they only work with non professional players? Missiles, anything. I know it's been about a month since we last spoke about this, but I'm dying to have more information about her.

 

[Luviant X]

Thanks for the vids. Learning a lot from them and am looking forward to more. My only suggestion is to try using Up + B after hit confirming fast fall Uairs and to see what you think of running off the ledge and using Nair or Fair instead of Zair.

I agree with the Up + B punish. It works.

 

[Beard Hawk]

Xyro (samus) vs Gaius (falcon)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ymrSJH3pH8&feature=youtu.be

Running off the stage and jumping back with an up air is good, but you do it so many times against Falcon that he's ready for it. If used less often it could surprise them. You land some nice Dairs as well, Samus' most satisfying move.

I know it's been about a month since we last spoke about this, but I'm dying to have more information about her.

Play the game more... Just because Xyro says Xyro's the best doesn't mean you can't learn anything on your own. If you learn something about Samus first hand, then you will truly know it. If someone on the internet tells you you might forget it. If you figure something out for yourself and THEN see people talking about it, you'll understand what they say better.

 

[Xyro77]

Xyro, now that you've been playing a bit more with Samus. What do you think of her? Samus from Brawl was one of the lowest in the Tier List, yet you were able to handle her pretty well.

I need to be careful on how i word things because i do not want to scare away any potential new Samus users.

The game technically has been out over 2 months but the WiiU version only about a month. Having said that, the game is still fresh and we will learn things about the game for years to come.

So as of now, what do i think about Smash 4 Samus?

Dair/Zair/Missiles/dtilt/dsmash all got nerfs and jab 1/bombs are still bad/very situational (at best). Jab cancelling, missile canceling, glide tossing, shield poking and lack of knocking people off of platforms/stages while in shield are gone or greatly reduced in Smash 4. Ledge play is extremely dangerous/risky in smash 4 and so my Brawl style has been totally decimated 9first time in my life where i do not know what to do). So if i just go by those attributes, id say Smash 4 Samus is the same as she was in brawl or maybe even worse.

However....

Ftilt/nair/up+b/charge shot/f-smash are all better than they were in smash 4. "rage effect" helps samus kill with almost any move. There appears to be more hit-stun so combos are easier/more possible to do. Pivot smashes/tilts are excellent and even more scary once people can do this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lZ-vXC9-6Y at will. The applications of pivot tilts/smashes will be great with Samus in Smash 4.

Verdict: she lost EVERYTHING she had in Melee/Brawl but gained other things she has never had before. We just need to learn how to abuse it. I still think that at best she will be mid tier. Never higher but never lower than she was in Brawl. So overall, i feel she will eventually be better than her brawl counterpart.

I've watched some of your matches and was amazed by some of the weird things you would constantly come up with. Your ledge play, Dair combos and missile games made me regret not ever giving Samus a chance in Brawl.
I know SSB4 Samus has a whole new gameplay, which I imagine is very confusing, yet she isn't considered as low as she was in Brawl.

Yes. I do things very differently with Samus and it pays off very well (for a low tier lol). Though brawl is dead, samus is still here in Smash 4 so dont give up and dont feel bad if she is indeed low tier again. Play her if you enjoy her and watch as many videos as you can. Steal tactics/techs and ask for help. There is NO SHAME in asking for help. In fact you will see me here asking for help from time to time.

I've seen people come up with some good tricks for this new Samus. Some using bombs or missiles as part of their play style, which completely contradicts the way you use her. Then I see you using Samus with a lot of weird tricks and mind games. This too gives me hope that we still don't understand her.

That ^ kinda piggy backs on what i just said. Watch videos and see how each of us use her moves. I fully believe bombs and missiles are almost worthless while others claim they are good. Take what we do and combine them to create your own style. Who knows you may find something we haven't yet!

This is the first Smash Bros in which I actually take some time to learn about her, compared to what I understand, is your years of experience of thousands and thousands of matches you have had with previous versions of her and can compare it with this new one. Not to mention how well you know the meta game.

You make me sound like a war hero lololol. Look, i feel i know Brawl Samus VERY well but Smash 4 samus i am still learning. I also do not know how she compares to the smash 4 meta because the game is still so young. i will make mistakes and give you inaccurate info, i am not perfect. so take what we say/what you learn and test it yourself. We are all here to help each other, regardless of previous experience.

Sometimes you talk about things I can't understand. So tell us, so far does Samus have a chance? Have you seen something that buffs her like that Zair regenerating attacks. Are bombs useful at high level matches? Or will they only work with non professional players? Missiles, anything. I know it's been about a month since we last spoke about this, but I'm dying to have more information about her.

if you EVER are confused on how i word things or if you are not understanding something that i have said, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE ask for clarification. I want to help all of you and i want you to help me as well. We are all here to have fun, make samus good and kick ass, right?

Zair refreshing moves is a SUPER good thing in Smash 4. Zair never stales but it guarantees to refresh other moves so this is a huge buff.

I will never believe bombs will be useful until i see a sure-fire way to use them without being punished while in the morph ball animation. Rohins mentioned that while the enemy is trying to up+b to a ledge (from below the ledge), you can drop a bomb and the foe's up+b hitting the bomb will cause them to take damage and interrupt their up+b. If this is true, i see situational uses and maybe even reliable uses vs Marth/lucina and other super vertical recoveries. NOTE: the lower the skill level/experience, the more moves/techs/strats will work on the enemy.

Due to the lack of missile canceling, missile usage should be greatly reduced because of the lag attached to the missile when landing. The only time i recommend using missiles (homing) is when the foe is recovering or if they are on the other side of the stages/on platforms. Super missiles are simply out of the question unless they drain shields (needs more testing) like they did in Brawl.

As for anything new? I am working on ledge play kinda similar to what i did in Brawl. I sorta kinda tried some in the video i showed you vs the captain falcon. When i develop something more "guaranteed" ill def share with you guys.

Thanks for the vids. Learning a lot from them and am looking forward to more. My only suggestion is to try using Up + B after hit confirming fast fall Uairs

In early brawl (before everybody when MK/olimar/diddy/snake) i did FF uairs to UP+B a ton. As the meta grew, it became very punishable. Im trying to get back into the habit of using it in smash 4 while people dont know how to punish it.

and to see what you think of running off the ledge and using Nair or Fair instead of Zair.

Zair is great if the foe is far from the ledge and you can hit with the tip. 9 out of 10 times when you do this, you just ate their 2nd jump and they will likely die.

Nair is good ( i just know it lol) but i am trying to find good uses for it. i know it is great to punish ground/airdodges. meaning, if they avoid the first nair hit, they will be hit by the 2nd.

Fair off stage is good for knock-back (KOing) and less for damage. ive seen a vid or 2 when a Samus jumps off the stage and punishes the foe's air dodge with a fair and it kills or at the very least it can eat a 2nd jump.

I agree with the Up + B punish. It works.

up+b is my fav move with samus.

Running off the stage and jumping back with an up air is good, but you do it so many times against Falcon that he's ready for it. If used less often it could surprise them. You land some nice Dairs as well, Samus' most satisfying move.

very true.

I do the uairs alot vs the falcon because hes not super good and because i want to test it on different shield levels. i still dont know when/where the move will shield poke so i was over-using it on purpose.

Play the game more... Just because Xyro says Xyro's the best doesn't mean you can't learn anything on your own. If you learn something about Samus first hand, then you will truly know it. If someone on the internet tells you you might forget it. If you figure something out for yourself and THEN see people talking about it, you'll understand what they say better.

yes!!!!!!

First hand experience is the best information you can get. It also helps you understand what others are talking about.

 

[Beard Hawk]

Due to the lack of missile canceling, missile usage should be greatly reduced because of the lag attached to the missile when landing. The only time i recommend using missiles (homing) is when the foe is recovering or if they are on the other side of the stages/on platforms. Super missiles are simply out of the question unless they drain shields (needs more testing) like they did in Brawl.

I've only just bothered upgrading to 1.0.4, so my brain is still playing catch up a little, but as far as I'm aware: If you land a super missile on their shield, a full charge shot will break their shield! It also works the other way around, so if they are scared and hiding in their shield the whole time, a charge shot and a super missile will break it. They probably will only fall for this once in their life so we can't rely on it for long as people will take note, but it will at least work for a little while!

EDIT: Xyro, I was wondering... Are you planning to continue playing Brawl? Are you worried that learning Sm4sh Samus will make it harder to go back to Brawl Samus? I myself don't have this problem because I use a different character every game, I usually play melee with Captain Falcon, who is the opposite to Samus, so I never confuse them. My problem is that I had to learn lots of new mind games to suit a different style. Samus is all about out-lasting, out-reaching, and frustrating opponents... Capt. Falcon is all about always being on the edge of death.

 

[Locke 06]

First off, this whole topic is so helpful for someone who's interested in picking up Samus. I've been playing with her for about 3 weeks now and I really like her moveset so far. I'm solidly a Mega Man main with a DK secondary, but Marth & Samus are the two other characters I'm interested in getting into.

The 2 things that have gotten me into Samus are her combo ability while having a pocketed charge shot finisher to play mind games with and her shield breaking/pressure game. I think her shield breaking/pressure skills are quite solidly right next to DK's, but completely unexplored. Missiles seem to be built for this as homing missiles are not easily power-shielded and can be mixed up with super missiles take a solid chunk out of shields (the exact amount would be really nice to know... but since they do 10% and charge shot does 25%, combined they account for at least an extra 15% of shield damage to break a full shield of 50%). If you catch someone shielding on the ledge and Screw Attack them, their shield gets incredibly close to breaking (I want to say it does close to 40% of damage on shields). Furthermore, default bombs (yes those bombs) have bonus shield damage as well. How this will evolve is up to Samus players, but it's something to be thinking about. Especially since shielding is nerfed from Brawl both in terms of health % and in terms of frame data. The UAir shield poking is something I hadn't thought about, but it looks to be quite potent when combined with all of this bonus shield damage.

I don't think super-missile charge shot shield break will just be a once in a blue moon. It's a great weapon, especially since you can recharge the shot and have enough time to land a fully charged sweet spot fsmash upon the break.

 

[Xyro77]

EDIT: Xyro, I was wondering... Are you planning to continue playing Brawl? Are you worried that learning Sm4sh Samus will make it harder to go back to Brawl Samus? I myself don't have this problem because I use a different character every game, I usually play melee with Captain Falcon, who is the opposite to Samus, so I never confuse them. My problem is that I had to learn lots of new mind games to suit a different style. Samus is all about out-lasting, out-reaching, and frustrating opponents... Capt. Falcon is all about always being on the edge of death.

I did the same as you. I main different characters each smash game except for smash 4.

ssb64=falcon
melee=marth
brawl=samus
smash 4=samus

Tbh i will never play brawl again unless it is the only game in the room. I am super disgusted in how brawl turned out. i became the best USA samus and im good with that so im 100% done.

I've only just bothered upgrading to 1.0.4, so my brain is still playing catch up a little, but as far as I'm aware: If you land a super missile on their shield, a full charge shot will break their shield! It also works the other way around, so if they are scared and hiding in their shield the whole time, a charge shot and a super missile will break it. They probably will only fall for this once in their life so we can't rely on it for long as people will take note, but it will at least work for a little while!

The 2 things that have gotten me into Samus are her combo ability while having a pocketed charge shot finisher to play mind games with and her shield breaking/pressure game. I think her shield breaking/pressure skills are quite solidly right next to DK's, but completely unexplored. Missiles seem to be built for this as homing missiles are not easily power-shielded and can be mixed up with super missiles take a solid chunk out of shields (the exact amount would be really nice to know... but since they do 10% and charge shot does 25%, combined they account for at least an extra 15% of shield damage to break a full shield of 50%). If you catch someone shielding on the ledge and Screw Attack them, their shield gets incredibly close to breaking (I want to say it does close to 40% of damage on shields). Furthermore, default bombs (yes those bombs) have bonus shield damage as well. How this will evolve is up to Samus players, but it's something to be thinking about. Especially since shielding is nerfed from Brawl both in terms of health % and in terms of frame data.

I am uploading a video of where i break a shield after a super missile+fully charge shot. its very situational now and almost impossible to land later in the meta when people learn the Samus MU.

The UAir shield poking is something I hadn't thought about, but it looks to be quite potent when combined with all of this bonus shield damage.

falling Uair to up+b is very useful and can KO if its done at a high % and on a platform. sounds situational but it happens a decent amount for some reason.

I don't think super-missile charge shot shield break will just be a once in a blue moon. It's a great weapon, especially since you can recharge the shot and have enough time to land a fully charged sweet spot fsmash upon the break.

i do exactly this^ in the video thats uploading now.

 

[Locke 06]

Shield damage will not always lead to a break, but even later in the meta it's something for them to fear and keep in mind. If you land a super missile/have their shield low enough that a charge shot would break it, shielding becomes more dangerous than not shielding. It's similar to how DK's down-B breaks shields in 4 hits. While this should never happen once people understand the MU, it does take a chunk out of a shield and makes the rest of the arsenal safer/more dangerous.

Edit: looking forward to your videos. You play very differently from how I play (edge of stage/platforms and reactionary rather than imposing your play on your opponent)

 

[The Seventh One]

I have actually had charge shot brake their shield and they took the 25 damage simultaneously.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Bombs stop most of Sonic's spin attacks. No joke, they are truly useful against Sonic.

 

[Xyro77]

Bombs stop most of Sonic's spin attacks. No joke, they are truly useful against Sonic.

Now that is something to look into. Samus would have to be fast and predict a spin dash ahead of time though because that attack is so damn fast.


edit: uploading more friendlies matches at my first Smash wiiu event. also uploading a new ledge/zair video. all of them should be on the OP by midnite.

 

[Xyro77]

uploaded more videos. I put them on the OP as well as here

Smash 4 Samus Zair & Ledge Chronicles: PART 2 (read description before viewing)
http://youtu.be/4k4pDRk_vWU

12/6/2014 Xyro (samus) vs Tyle (falco) 1 http://youtu.be/o5Lz-vIZNNE
12/6/2014 Xyro (samus) vs Tyle (falco) 2 http://youtu.be/tnzKg_6I9_Q
12/6/2014 Xyro (samus) vs Tyle (falco) 3 http://youtu.be/4MbICxyWJ-4
12/6/2014 Xyro (samus) vs Johnny Socal (Ike) 1 http://youtu.be/IqmOWYZ43oA
12/6/2014 Xyro (samus) vs Johnny Socal (Ike) 2 http://youtu.be/UqWr2axd3Zo
12/6/2014 Xyro (samus) vs Johnny Socal (MK) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uetY2qVt-X0
12/6/2014 Xyro (samus) vs Gaius (falcon) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ymrSJH3pH8


Again, these vids are not of high level play (the game is only a month old) but its great learning material in regards of what to do and what not to do at the low/mid level


edit: here is me at he BestBuy e3 demo back in june. It was a Free-For-All with items and a pro controller. It was a disaster https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pimgQxlJ7tI

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

The videos are set to private.

 

[BlackCephie]

Im most interesting in finding more creativity with missiles. It seems so weird to me that Sakurai would keep power missiles unable to kill, like in Brawl, but then get rid of her ability to double missile cancel. Part of me thinks "Hmm, it must have been for a reason." Surely SOMEONE on the dev team thought of this and they all nodded and said 'if we take away m-cancel, lets give missiles some super secret tech'. But the way the recovery one them is now, Im wondering if we can find some way to abuse them. Now don't get me wrong, I still love her missiles and often use dash pivot missiles to great effect, but damn what a huge nerf that was. It hurts.

 

[Xyro77]

The videos are set to private.

dont know how that happened but its fixed now. all vids are "public"

Im most interesting in finding more creativity with missiles. It seems so weird to me that Sakurai would keep power missiles unable to kill, like in Brawl, but then get rid of her ability to double missile cancel. Part of me thinks "Hmm, it must have been for a reason." Surely SOMEONE on the dev team thought of this and they all nodded and said 'if we take away m-cancel, lets give missiles some super secret tech'. But the way the recovery one them is now, Im wondering if we can find some way to abuse them. Now don't get me wrong, I still love her missiles and often use dash pivot missiles to great effect, but damn what a huge nerf that was. It hurts.

It is an anti-camp tech. the devs realized brawl was a massive camp fest and so they nerfed projectiles for smash 4

Fox cant laser cancel
falco cant laser cancel
samus cant missile cancel
peach cant turnip cancel
olimar doesnt have as many pikmin
diddy only has one banana
Even Zairs have more lag now
....the list goes on.

 

[Afro Smash]

@ Xyro77 at around the 2.38 mark of that first game vs falco, do you purposefully use the momentum Charge shot to propel urself towards the stage? And also whats the timing/input for turning around in mid air to do this?

 

[BlackCephie]

dont know how that happened but its fixed now. all vids are "public"



It is an anti-camp tech. the devs realized brawl was a massive camp fest and so they nerfed projectiles for smash 4

Fox cant laser cancel
falco cant laser cancel
samus cant missile cancel
peach cant turnip cancel
olimar doesnt have as many pikmin
diddy only has one banana
Even Zairs have more lag now
....the list goes on.

And this is were my problem is. I get that they wanted to make the GAME overall less campy. That makes perfect sense. However, that could have been one of many things unique to Samus to give her the edge in high level play, having overall campyness removed, and a reliable long-range pressure strat, especially considering it would make sense for her, of anyone, to be able to effectively camp, play defense and force the opponents hand, then transition into offense with buffed normals. It would have made much more sense to nerf projectiles overall, but leave distance-based characters with that upper hand, given their blatant weaknesses elsewhere. Characters like fox, falco, peach, diddy, and olimar SHOULDN'T be able to camp. That was one of the many mistakes they made in Brawl, but Samus has a GUN FOR AN ARM for goodness sake. If the woman cant hold two wine glasses at the same time, at least allow her to be able to fire two missiles back to back.

I think my frustration comes from the feeling that even though she got some much needed buffs, the nerfs she got vs. those buffs don't seem to justify removing her biggest advantage, which was relentless pressure from long range. Its like Sakurai was trying to force players to use more of her move kit in order to win, but the buffs to her kit overall still don't allow that to be a smooth and intuitive thing to accomplish. I think most veteran Samus players are used to being creative and crafty, and anyone who naturally gravitates towards her character probably have certain aspects of their personality that will enable them to take her to the level of awesome, as we have seen in many vids thus far, and therefore she CAN work, but from a game design standpoint Sakurai really didn't do a good job at making her strategy and philosophy as a character cohesive. The player has to FORCE it, and even then many fights are far more difficult than they should be for the greatest bounty hunter in the universe.

 

[Xyro77]

..................ignore

 

[Xyro77]

And this is were my problem is. I get that they wanted to make the GAME overall less campy. That makes perfect sense. However, that could have been one of many things unique to Samus to give her the edge in high level play, having overall campyness removed, and a reliable long-range pressure strat, especially considering it would make sense for her, of anyone, to be able to effectively camp, play defense and force the opponents hand, then transition into offense with buffed normals. Characters like fox, falco, peach, diddy, and olimar SHOULDN'T be able to camp. That was one of the many mistakes they made in Brawl, but Samus has a GUN FOR AN ARM for goodness sake. If the woman cant hold two wine glasses at the same time, at least allow her to be able to fire two missiles back to back.

I think my frustration comes from the feeling that even though she got some much needed buffs, the nerfs she got vs. those buffs don't seem to justify removing her biggest advantage, which was relentless pressure from long range. Its like Sakurai was trying to force players to use more of her move kit in order to win, but the buffs to her kit overall still don't allow that to be a smooth and intuitive thing to accomplish. I think most veteran Samus players are used to being creative and crafty, and anyone who naturally gravitates towards her character probably have certain aspects of their personality that will enable them to take her to the level of awesome, as we have seen in many vids thus far, and therefore she CAN work, but from a game design standpoint Sakurai really didn't do a good job at making her strategy and philosophy as a character cohesive. The player has to FORCE it, and even then many fights are far more difficult than they should be for the greatest bounty hunter in the universe.

I agree with all of this^ and its why i have a hard time enjoying this game. Sometimes i feel like brawl Samus is the better Samus. I am not 100% dead set on this though.

@ Xyro77 at around the 2.38 mark of that first game vs falco, do you purposefully use the momentum Charge shot to propel urself towards the stage? And also whats the timing/input for turning around in mid air to do this?

Yes i did that on purpose because i didn't think i had a 2nd jump.

The tech is call "B reversal." If i remember correctly, most all characters can do this.

In my opinion the best way to practice this is with falco. So pick falco, go to FD (or any stage) and do 3 things.

1. jump facing right ( or left)
2. FLICK the stick the opposite direction while in the air
3. Press B

If done right, falco will turn and shoot a laser in mid air. If done wrong, he wont shoot his laser the correct direction OR he will phantasm across the stage in the right direction.

Some character like samus get a SMALL boost in momentum doing the B reversal in the air. B reversal is also good while running away. Would you like a video?

 

[DungeonMaster]

I'm actually going to disagree, Samus never won very long range in Brawl, and we would have to define "long" range really. There were several characters (ROB) that you had to approach because there was no choice, they simply won the projectile war at distances you couldn't manage.

Smash4 is much more up-close and personal, but I have to say after a first few weeks of real frustration I'm coming around to quite enjoying the projectile game in Smash4.
I more often than not view super-missiles as hitbox just beyond the already quite impressive reach of f-smash and tilt, used in quite close when people are landing (I love landing lag, my opponent's landing lag is my best friend, it is a beautiful thing). I'm typically not hitting with them at long range, except in particular matchups. Super-missile + charge shot just plain rocks across an omega stage, once you have that CS loaded, you force many characters to completely abandon their projectile game. I will simply charge + shield until I get it up, then it's a clear message: "you feeling lucky punk?".
I wouldn't get too dispirited with her projectiles just yet, it's very different but it's definitely not "bad", averaged over the entire cast I think Samus definitely does have the advantage.

 

[BlackCephie]

..................ignore

Yeah I mean IMHO Brawl was just a terrible example of a Smash game with some huge design flaws, but Samus had some huge strengths. I think the main reason she was ranked so low in Brawl was due to the environment of the game itself by and large i.e. no KO's until 100 gajillion percent, generally speaking. Her up smash was cool, she had no landing lag on many of her aerials that she does now, and she still had m-cancel. That said, I'm having fun learning the new Samus, and I find myself beating out many characters in the air that outprioritized her in brawl, like Marth, Meta, and even Wario at my best. I think this has a lot to do with how her physics and weight have been tweaked.

Anyways, on bombs and missiles, I think they can be very useful but must be mixed up with smart usage. For example, I was fighting a fox in a For Glory and was consistently able to stop his combos with bombs. However, I found that I had to full hop my bombs and fastfall/vector properly and respond to his reactions accordingly. The full hop gives you enough time to zair before landing, which allows you to follow up upon landing which is awesome if they heed the bomb and stay at range, but if he rushed under a mistimed zair, I'd get punished. I remedied this by using uair or nair out of the full hop bomb instead of zair, as he would assume the zair, rush in to get through it, and instead eat a close range aerial with minimal landing recovery. I found that staying as close to the bomb as possible gave me the most mileage. It doesnt make sense to lay a bomb then retreat from it since bombs dont have active hitbox frames through the duration they are present. They actually make it very annoying for fast characters to get in on you for juggles or grabs, plus you can use the small window that a hit-confirmed bomb gives you to land more powerful blows.

On missiles, you already know how I feel about them, but they are missiles and missiles are cool. I've had great success with long range (and even mid range) pressure by mixing dash pivot homing missiles with dash pivot and stationary power missiles and uncharged shots. Throw in some well-timed zairs and her pressure becomes harder to surmount. I can only imagine that perfect pivots will help her with this mix up strategy even more, but Im not so great at it yet. Power missiles do indeed cause much shield damage, so I've started trying to consciously use them to weaken enemy shields, and once accomplished, using that time to switch to a more aggressive playstyle to take advantage of the weakened defenses.

I'll be posting some vids as soon as I get the means to, but right now I don't actually own the game and mainly train with friends in between a busy work schedule. Our girl Samus is smart and sexy and we should stick by her. Im sure it will pay off in dividends.

I'm actually going to disagree, Samus never won very long range in Brawl, and we would have to define "long" range really. There were several characters (ROB) that you had to approach because there was no choice, they simply won the projectile war at distances you couldn't manage.

Smash4 is much more up-close and personal, but I have to say after a first few weeks of real frustration I'm coming around to quite enjoying the projectile game in Smash4.
I more often than not view super-missiles as hitbox just beyond the already quite impressive reach of f-smash and tilt, used in quite close when people are landing (I love landing lag, my opponent's landing lag is my best friend, it is a beautiful thing). I'm typically not hitting with them at long range, except in particular matchups. Super-missile + charge shot just plain rocks across an omega stage, once you have that CS loaded, you force many characters to completely abandon their projectile game. I will simply charge + shield until I get it up, then it's a clear message: "you feeling lucky punk?".
I wouldn't get too dispirited with her projectiles just yet, it's very different but it's definitely not "bad", averaged over the entire cast I think Samus definitely does have the advantage.

Not true at all. The kind of situation you describe, which was highly situational and really came down to moment to moment decisions, was one that a good Samus could dominate with great use of zair/missiles/cs. The ROB matchup in particular was annoying, but Samus was definitely able to pressure him with missiles when the opportunity arose. It really came down to who had the best window to pressure at any given time. Here is an old Brawl vid from when I still thought the game was fun, but not really, against my friend Toasty who had a really nasty ROB.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUCd67VbmQs

This set is very back and forth, but keep in mind that I played with Toasty a lot ever since Melee and so we both knew each other's play styles fairly well. I certainly didn't dominate him and we went 1 and 1, but there are several instances when I was able to use my missiles to pressure him and force his move. I don't want to really focus on Brawl here, but I think its worth illustrating the differences in her possible strategies from Brawl to 4.

 

[Xyro77]

I'm actually going to disagree, Samus never won very long range in Brawl, and we would have to define "long" range really. There were several characters (ROB) that you had to approach because there was no choice, they simply won the projectile war at distances you couldn't manage.

I disagree fully with this.

In Brawl, Samus had the longest melee attack in the game (zair) that was extremely spammable. Missiles that went straight/fast and missiles that were slow and changed directions. Then you had charge shot. This is most def a long range/spam/defensive/projectile based character. This cant be argued. But i would agree that she was FAR from the best long range character in the game.

In Brawl, i NEVER had to approach any character other than olimar and falco because pikmin/falco lasers interrupted everything Samus has. Rob was a JOY to fight. His shield was weak because he was a big character and so fair/uair/charge hot and more could easily shield poke him. His gyro is extremely slow and the laser couldn't be spammed. If you fought him on stages with playforms, his projectiles are even less effective.

Rob in smash 4 seems to be better and his projectiles better so Id think we would lose now days.

 

[BlackCephie]

I think a key thing that could really help her at close range would be the revival of the morph ball cancel from melee. Being able to come out of the morph ball animation with any aerial would be SUCH a godsend. Too bad Sakurai is unwilling to make gameplay balances in the future.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I think we're all in agreement. And mid-range is where I see BlackCephie's linked vid being fought. It's all just definitions.

I fought a very good rob the other day, he's definitely not crap in smash4.

 

[Afro Smash]

I agree with all of this^ and its why i have a hard time enjoying this game. Sometimes i feel like brawl Samus is the better Samus. I am not 100% dead set on this though.







Yes i did that on purpose because i didn't think i had a 2nd jump.

The tech is call "B reversal." If i remember correctly, most all characters can do this.

In my opinion the best way to practice this is with falco. So pick falco, go to FD (or any stage) and do 3 things.

1. jump facing right ( or left)
2. FLICK the stick the opposite direction while in the air
3. Press B

If done right, falco will turn and shoot a laser in mid air. If done wrong, he wont shoot his laser the correct direction OR he will phantasm across the stage in the right direction.

Some character like samus get a SMALL boost in momentum doing the B reversal in the air. B reversal is also good while running away. Would you like a video?

Ah thx alot, nah a video wont be necessary, i was struggling a bit at first, but now it seems p easy. Now to naturally implement it in to my game

 

[Los4Muros]

1.- OK, I really wanna get better with Samus so I'm gonna throw a few newbie questions. In the Frame Data I understand what "Hits of Frame" and "Hitboxes end" mean, but do the other three concepts mean?

Max Hitbox BKB:
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage:
Max Hitbox Angle:

2.- Does using Zair refresh stale moves even if you miss the hit?

3.- Which of the attacks are stale moves? All the Smash move, B moves?

3.- I've noticed that Fthrow and Uthrow are the most used of the throws. I use them both for the follow ups and for the setups they sometimes give. Would you guys recommend Bthrow or Dthrow for a certain situation? Are grabs also stale moves? And if they are. Do they recover quickly considering the few chances we get to use them as Samus?

4.- What does Samus play better on, Stages with platform or without platforms? I've been having some matches on stages with platforms like Brinstar, Battlefield, Yoshi's Island, Smashville, etc and notice I have a hard time do to the homing missiles and bombs crashing with the platforms and the veins (in Brinstar), but maybe I'm just not used to the stages.

 

[Xyro77]

1. It's very technical and doesn't mean much at all. Ignore it.

2. Moves only refresh if another move hits. If your jab is completely stale, a missed Zair will not help refresh it.

3. All moves can stale except "get up Attack" from ledge and zair

3 part 2. Bthrow and Dthrow are the most used throws because Dthrow can combo at low percents. Bthrow is used to throw people off stage so obviously it's used a lot.

3 part 3. Yes throws stale and pummel stales too. Throws and pummels are more about refreshing other moves and placing the enemy in the air or off stage. So don't worry if you throws are stale.

4. Stages with platforms are the best for Samus. It provides shield pressure Vs the foe if they are on them. Can cause combos to happen that normally wouldn't on an FD stage. Disrupts lil Mac's entire ground game. Allows for up+b to kill very early.

 

[NinjaPuffins]

I just started playing smash regularly on midnight October 2, so I'm extremely new and still learning A LOT. I am pretty sure this is something pretty cool though (but maybe it's common knowledge) cause I found that d-tilt and d-throw both combo into f-air at a wide range of percentages starting at 0% allowing for some quick and easy damage that they have a hard time air-dodging out of. also I've found that sometimes you can sneak in a charge shot or occasionally even a b-air when they are waiting out the usual f-air with an air-dodge giving this combo some pleasant mixups. when I do this near the ledge it allows for some fun edge-guarding situations! anyway I thank you all for the great info on our favorite bounty hunter!

 

[FlAlex]

I just started playing smash regularly on midnight October 2, so I'm extremely new and still learning A LOT. I am pretty sure this is something pretty cool though (but maybe it's common knowledge) cause I found that d-tilt and d-throw both combo into f-air at a wide range of percentages starting at 0% allowing for some quick and easy damage that they have a hard time air-dodging out of. also I've found that sometimes you can sneak in a charge shot or occasionally even a b-air when they are waiting out the usual f-air with an air-dodge giving this combo some pleasant mixups. when I do this near the ledge it allows for some fun edge-guarding situations! anyway I thank you all for the great info on our favorite bounty hunter!

Welcome to Smashboards! Glad to have another "sister in arm-cannons."

And yes, we already know that combo. Great to know you are willing to experiment on your own though. Samus is going to need all the tech she can get in this meta, so don't stop.

One of the first things I suggest you do (if you haven't already) is read up on all the language Smash has. Things like "teching", Dair, Nair, Tilt, Meteor Smash, etc. It will help you keep from getting lost in discussions throughout Smashdom.

Don't be afraid to ask any questions or give advice yourself, even if you think we may already know.

Best of luck!

PS: Why exactly at midnight specifically did you dedicate yourself? Just curious.

 

[NinjaPuffins]

Hey guys, do we have any perfect pivoting applications discovered for Samus yet?

Welcome to Smashboards! Glad to have another "sister in arm-cannons."

And yes, we already know that combo. Great to know you are willing to experiment on your own though. Samus is going to need all the tech she can get in this meta, so don't stop.

One of the first things I suggest you do (if you haven't already) is read up on all the language Smash has. Things like "teching", Dair, Nair, Tilt, Meteor Smash, etc. It will help you keep from getting lost in discussions throughout Smashdom.

Don't be afraid to ask any questions or give advice yourself, even if you think we may already know.

Best of luck!

PS: Why exactly at midnight specifically did you dedicate yourself? Just curious.

Thanks for the great encouragement! I borrowed melee for a few months as a kid and played brawl at friends, (which is where I fell in love with Samus's moveset) but was never able to own any installment myself for various reasons at different times, until I bought smash for 3ds on the Eshop on midnight October 2nd. Since that midnight I've been hooked. I had been carefully watching all of the info for sm4sh since E3 2013. Also I've been studying some smash language so thankfully I was able to understand what you just said.

 

[FlAlex]

Hey guys, do we have any perfect pivoting applications discovered for Samus yet?


Thanks for the great encouragement! I borrowed melee for a few months as a kid and played brawl at friends, (which is where I fell in love with Samus's moveset) but was never able to own any installment myself for various reasons at different times, until I bought smash for 3ds on the Eshop on midnight October 2nd. Since that midnight I've been hooked. I had been carefully watching all of the info for sm4sh since E3 2013. Also I've been studying some smash language so thankfully I was able to understand what you just said.

Aww. Hence the timing.

but no, I don't think anyone has discovered any perfect pivot applications. I would try this myself, but for the time being I am stuck with the harder to control 3ds version. The testing will be left to you guys with your control-sticks.

There probably won't be any applications anyways. Perfect pivoting doesn't yield anywhere as much space control as wave-dashing did.

Feel free to try it out though. Meanwhile, Imma try some more bomb tech and jiggly-esque gameplay. Her floatiness has to have greater offensive applications.

One last thing: Has anyone found anything worthwhile in Samus' Dash attack canceled grab? I don't think it gives her any boosts.

 

[IsmaR]

The only thing I've managed with PP is some Charge Shot mindgames, and the occasional unexpected D-tilt. Reverse B-air could definitely have some use but more often than not they either are too short/low for it to hit, or they just hit you/dodge/shield first.

I think the biggest AT for us atm is the ledge attack cancel. Running off stage > immediate Z-air or N-air is incredibly useful. Also helps for fastfalling/chasing people off stage and smacking them with either B-air or D-air.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

A Bomb and Charge shot can almost break a full shield. Since the bomb is delayed for a bit you can sometimes get an opponent to sit in their shield long enough for it to break. I've been trying to see where I think this might be good and I think it works well when reading a get up off the ledge. This probably wont work too often once the opponent knows about it, but you might get them to commit to something that can be punished or is favorable for Samus if the expect a charge shot.

Even if it doesn't break their shield, the next attack will. Take advantage of that as much as you can.

 

[Xyro77]

Perfect pivoting will most def help Samus. It's very hard to do but any extra tool we have can open up possibilities.

 

[FlAlex]

Reverse B-air could definitely have some use but more often than not they either are too short/low for it to hit, or they just hit you/dodge/shield first.

I think the biggest AT for us atm is the ledge attack cancel. Running off stage > immediate Z-air or N-air is incredibly useful. Also helps for fastfalling/chasing people off stage and smacking them with either B-air or D-air.

When you mean Reverse Bair do you mean something like RAR?

Oh ya. Forgot about that tech. Why do you call it "ledge attack cancel" though? Makes it sound like you are canceling Samus' get-up attack.

In the unlikely possibility that someone has yet to try this I'll ask: Has anyone been able to superwave dash or even tried? I assumed everyone else would have tried for themselves so I never experimented (plus I could never pull it off to begin with so).

 

[Xyro77]

Ismar prob called it "ledge attack cancel" as more of a temp place holder name until a more official one is created. Personally, id call it a "ledge canceled attack" because that is exactly what you are doing. You are cancelling a bomb or missle on the ledge in order to do an attack off the ledge.

Super wavedash/normal wave dash are gone. been gone since 2008. Perfect pivot is as close as we will get for now.

Any standard A move done in reverse while in the air is a "RAR" or "reverse aerial rush"


Also, i am adding a section to the OP of this thread and it will have terminology and samus specific techs. Would you guys like to help me? anything you can add will be used and i will give you credit on the OP as well. I need terms, definitions and videos (if possible).

 

[NinjaPuffins]

Speaking of B-air, I LOVE that move. Sometimes I'll hang onto the ledge and snap out a sweetspotted B-air while they are recovering and they will be KOed quite early. Oh for the Fox/Falco vs Samus match-up Samus's D-tilt, D-air, F-air, and B-air make edge-guarding the space animals a breeze.

Perfect pivoting will most def help Samus. It's very hard to do but any extra tool we have can open up possibilities.

Awesome! So perhaps something like covering an opponent's landing with up-smash more efficiently?

 

[FlAlex]

Ismar prob called it "ledge attack cancel" as more of a temp place holder name until a more official one is created. Personally, id call it a "ledge canceled attack" because that is exactly what you are doing. You are cancelling a bomb or missle on the ledge in order to do an attack off the ledge.

Super wavedash/normal wave dash are gone. been gone since 2008. Perfect pivot is as close as we will get for now.

Any standard A move done in reverse while in the air is a "RAR" or "reverse aerial rush"


Also, i am adding a section to the OP of this thread and it will have terminology and samus specific techs. Would you guys like to help me? anything you can add will be used and i will give you credit on the OP as well. I need terms, definitions and videos (if possible).

Okay, thanks for the info.

I would love to help but I don't know half as much as the rest of y'all.
I know:

Superwave-dash, Perfect Pivot, RAR, bomb-jumping (if that's even a tech), "Dash attack canceled grab," "Air dodge canceled Zair," "Ledge canceled attack", B-reversal, and charge canceling. along with the likes of Dair, Nair, SH, tech-ing, etc.

While we are doing this could we give an official name to that ledge tech? Perhaps either by giving the discoverer the choice or through voting?

Also, does Samus have a roll-canceled grab? I heard Diddy has one if I am not mistaken. I heard it covers like a fourth of FD.