Meta "The Final Content" [1.1.4] Patch Discussion

[Tenhart]

Yes, these same results are also true of 1.13 and the custom stage I built. These two would have to be running for as long as a full minute without stopping for Charizard to pull ahead of Cloud.

Oh, okay thanks for clearing that up. I was thinking it's a sad day to be an over obsessed Cloud main.

 

[Mario766]

Meh; like I said before, rage Uspecial still has people fall out before the last hit at die at 40% off the top. This does nothing about that. Flip Jump is far more overtuned than Boost Kick anyway.

I popped out of up b on thst hit as Ike and lived at 120+ in my set vs V115. Dunno what caused it to happen honestly

 

[Megamang]

Depends on DI, his percentage, when and where you pop out, and where you are on the screen.

 

[Mario766]

Depends on DI, his percentage, when and where you pop out, and where you are on the screen.

In rage, in maginfying glass, popped out 5-6th hit.

 

[Garo]

Also, Shulk wasn't changed in terms of parameters or frame data, but he got a ton of effect changes. Has to do with the Beam portion of the Monado & maybe other things. Basically our attacks / animations got more beautiful.

Did it do anything for Backslash? IIRC, after the buff that made the hitbox come out faster the animation has this weird "jump" in it where it seems like it skips few frames of animation.

 

[Tenhart]

Has there been any headway made for unearthing the parameter changes for Cloud if there were any? The official patch notes still have nothing, and all the sources I can find are 1.1.3 relevant.

 

[Masonomace]

Did it do anything for Backslash? IIRC, after the buff that made the hitbox come out faster the animation has this weird "jump" in it where it seems like it skips few frames of animation.

By "jump, you mean the quirky 24th frame of Back Slash?

Spoiler: Back Slash frame-by-frame

Frame 21

Frame 22

Frame 23

Frame 24

Frame 25

If not, then I'm not sure atm what "jump" means. I have other ideas of what you could mean though.

 

[JohnKnight416]

I will admit that I said "Top 7", but I will actually disagree with myself right now. Link does not struggle against a lot of people. Even if it was 7 out of 60, that sounds pretty balanced to me. His melee attacks may not be guaranteed follow-ups unless at low percents (Like SH Fair fast fall to Dtilt to SH Fair) but, his punish, read, and mixup game is god-like. It's amazing that Link really has one of the best keep away games without using a projectile. Ledge-Gaurding? Not a problem.

In my opinion, Link struggles against: Sonic, Rosalina, Ryu, Greninja, and Falco. A little bit against Villager and Ness.
There is 7, but not the top 7. Even ZSS and Sheik are not awful matchups in tournament play. Hard, but not awful.

I know Link isn't bad against a lot of characters since he has potential with what he has in his arsenal. It's just that I hate the fact that he has bad match ups with with certain characters which ruins how much you want to play him as a fan of The Legend of Zelda series.

 

[Ffamran]

I know Link isn't bad against a lot of characters since he has potential with what he has in his arsenal. It's just that I hate the fact that he has bad match ups with with certain characters which ruins how much you want to play him as a fan of The Legend of Zelda series.

Assuming you haven't checked when I tagged you there... Please take this to this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/4br-tier-list-v1-0-competitive-impressions.429826/, the Link boards, or even a PM. Patch-related discussion should be here while competitive, MU, Link, and other discussions should be taken elsewhere.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

Well, I find it kinda crazy some people would attach negative intentions about my post.

All I wanted was the diddy information up and tested soon (for everyone to see...of course) and simply offered a small tip for whoever took the effort and time to test something like that.

:/

 

[zblaqk]

Well, I find it kinda crazy some people would attach negative intentions about my post.

All I wanted was the diddy information up and tested soon (for everyone to see...of course) and simply offered a small tip for whoever took the effort and time to test something like that.

:/

Don't worry about it man, this is forums for you. Chances are it was a tiny change with something unnecessary like his final smash lol

 

[Garo]

By "jump, you mean the quirky 24th frame of Back Slash?

Spoiler: Back Slash frame-by-frame

Frame 21

Frame 22

Frame 23

Frame 24

Frame 25

If not, then I'm not sure atm what "jump" means. I have other ideas of what you could mean though.

Yes, that's exactly what I mean (the Monado going from a completely vertical to completely horizontal position in a single frame). I take it it's still there then, or were these pictures taken before the latest patch?

 

[Masonomace]

Yes, that's exactly what I mean (the Monado going from a completely vertical to completely horizontal position in a single frame). I take it it's still there then, or were these pictures taken before the latest patch?

Yeah it's been there since the Back Slash frame buff that used to be frame 31 startup to now frame 22. These pictures are from me taking them yesterday with the 1.1.4 patch, but like I said, it's been like that for a couple of patches at least.

 

[Meshima]

TSM ZeRo
Sixriver found new changes about , , , , , , and .

1. , , , , and had extra 1 frame invincibility when they get "soft trip" or "hard trip" and do "stand up", "forward roll" and "back roll" from trip in 1.1.3, but now all character's invincibility frames are exactly same.
2. and had no invincibility frames when they get hard trip in 1.1.3, but now they have 5 frames invincibility. Thus all characters have 5 frames now.

Here is the original Japanese spreadsheet made by Sixriver, have already updated.
And here is translated spreadsheet made by @Pikabunz in 1.1.3.

Oddly, soft/hard trip total frames seems unchanged.
Although all chars has 5 invincible frames, Bowser Jr and Pacman still has 45 total frames whereas DHD has only 38 frames when they get hard trip.

Of course, this information is free.

 

[Aninymouse]

TSM ZeRo
Sixriver found new changes about , , , , , , and .

1. , , , , and had extra 1 frame invincibility when they get "soft trip" or "hard trip" and do "stand up", "forward roll" and "back roll" from trip in 1.1.3, but now all character's invincibility frames are exactly same.
2. and had no invincibility frames when they get hard trip in 1.1.3, but now they have 5 frames invincibility. Thus all characters have 5 frames now.

Here is the original Japanese spreadsheet made by Sixriver, have already updated.
And here is translated spreadsheet made by @Pikabunz in 1.1.3.

Oddly, soft/hard trip total frames seems unchanged.
Although all chars has 5 invincible frames, Bowser Jr and Pacman still has 45 total frames whereas DHD has only 38 frames when they get hard trip.

Of course, this information is free.

Thank you so much. Our patience has finally been rewarded.

Now if only we knew what changed for Wii Fit and Cloud, and finished Charizard's Usmash, I think 1.1.4 would be 100% documented. Edit: also, Zelda, Dark Pit, and Captain Falcon: are they confirmed to be visual changes/final smash changes?

Well, I find it kinda crazy some people would attach negative intentions about my post.

All I wanted was the diddy information up and tested soon (for everyone to see...of course) and simply offered a small tip for whoever took the effort and time to test something like that.

:/

I couldn't believe it, myself. At least now we know what changed about Diddy: he has 1 less invincibility frame when getting out of a trip to bring him in line with the rest of the cast.

 

[1FC0]

TSM ZeRo
Sixriver found new changes about , , , , , , and .

1. , , , , and had extra 1 frame invincibility when they get "soft trip" or "hard trip" and do "stand up", "forward roll" and "back roll" from trip in 1.1.3, but now all character's invincibility frames are exactly same.
2. and had no invincibility frames when they get hard trip in 1.1.3, but now they have 5 frames invincibility. Thus all characters have 5 frames now.

Here is the original Japanese spreadsheet made by Sixriver, have already updated.
And here is translated spreadsheet made by @Pikabunz in 1.1.3.

Oddly, soft/hard trip total frames seems unchanged.
Although all chars has 5 invincible frames, Bowser Jr and Pacman still has 45 total frames whereas DHD has only 38 frames when they get hard trip.

Of course, this information is free.

Another nerf for R.O.B. T_T

 

[Aninymouse]

Another nerf for R.O.B. T_T

Technically yes, but uniformity when dealing with tripping can be seen as a good thing. Since not all characters can force trips, before, certain characters had innate disadvantages in that respect. Now, all characters recover from tripping the same way.

 

[1FC0]

Technically yes, but uniformity when dealing with tripping can be seen as a good thing. Since not all characters can force trips, before, certain characters had innate disadvantages in that respect. Now, all characters recover from tripping the same way.

By that logic we should make all characters the same.

 

[Aninymouse]

By that logic we should make all characters the same.

Considering we are only talking about a single frame, here, it's likely that they wanted it to be a uniform aspect across the entire cast to begin with, but just goofed up.

Some characters have different lengths to their get-up animations, though, like Meshima said. So Bowser Jr. & Pac-Man are more vulnerable than normal to tripping, while Duck Hunt is less disadvantaged than normal. There is your diversity.

 

[Myst_R]

Why is the search for changes of this patch taking so long ? It is a sincere question, as I understood that some had datamined the game. I guess it is just a comparison work now, isn't it ?

 

[Aninymouse]

Why is the search for changes of this patch taking so long ? It is a sincere question, as I understood that some had datamined the game. I guess it is just a comparison work now, isn't it ?

I cannot speak for everyone, but there are at least two reasons. One, it is a volunteer effort, so it can be inconsistent at times. But two, ever since 1.1.3, Sakurai and team have been changing obscure aspects of the game that are not as obvious to detect. Sometimes these aspects are in a different place in the ROM entirely (like different computer folders), so it can be confusing on where to look or how to interpret data. These files are in hexidecimal, after all... you need to have more than a basic knowledge of how ROMs are structured and read if you don't have tools and programs to interpret the data for you.

Since this is a volunteer effort, I'm just thankful that anyone cares enough to check for these changes at all! No one has to do it! Nintendo doesn't give us patch notes and no one is paid to document them.

 

[Thirtyfour]

Just came to say Bayonetta is air Sonic and Corrin uses a Lance so automatically beats swords users. Thanks Sakurai
Also how come the Sword of Seals doesn't work on Corrin? Please patch.

 

[1FC0]

Considering we are only talking about a single frame, here, it's likely that they wanted it to be a uniform aspect across the entire cast to begin with, but just goofed up.

Some characters have different lengths to their get-up animations, though, like Meshima said. So Bowser Jr. & Pac-Man are more vulnerable than normal to tripping, while Duck Hunt is less disadvantaged than normal. There is your diversity.

But a lack of diversity was not my complaint. I was merely pointing out that IMO it does not compensate for R.O.B.'s nerf.

We should all go back to playing version 1.0.4 or earlier! How can I downgrade?

 

[GP2]

GP2 @Dusk Pit I can't pinpoint what was changed, but i can tell you that it was in the effects folder, which as far as i understand only contains visual effects.

Liberation on the patchnotes thread said that it was hitbox change.

 

[Rawbinator]

Liberation on the patchnotes thread said that it was hitbox change.

I believe the post you're referring says possible hitbox changes

 

[Myst_R]

I cannot speak for everyone, but there are at least two reasons. One, it is a volunteer effort, so it can be inconsistent at times. But two, ever since 1.1.3, Sakurai and team have been changing obscure aspects of the game that are not as obvious to detect. Sometimes these aspects are in a different place in the ROM entirely (like different computer folders), so it can be confusing on where to look or how to interpret data. These files are in hexidecimal, after all... you need to have more than a basic knowledge of how ROMs are structured and read if you don't have tools and programs to interpret the data for you.

Since this is a volunteer effort, I'm just thankful that anyone cares enough to check for these changes at all! No one has to do it! Nintendo doesn't give us patch notes and no one is paid to document them.

Thank you! This is the answer I needed =)

 

[Luig]

Even though the knockback on Mac's smashes were compensated (besides fsmash) they definitely kill earlier. Mac's up smash kills earlier than Lucas's now.

 

[Unowninator]

I've been finding that Mewtwo's back throw has been a lot more successful for killing since the update; KOing as low as ~100%ish.

 

[Aninymouse]

I've been finding that Mewtwo's back throw has been a lot more successful for killing since the update; KOing as low as ~100%ish.

No Mewtwo files were changed in this patch. Mewtwo's Bthrow was already a kill throw since his inclusion in the game. It's especially effective against fast fallers.

 

[Zazabar]

Captain Falcon, Cloud, Dark Pit, and Wii Fit Trainer still have no information. Anyone know what's up? Sorry if it's already been covered, I don't want to skim through 22 pages for the information.

 

[Aninymouse]

Captain Falcon, Cloud, Dark Pit, and Wii Fit Trainer still have no information. Anyone know what's up? Sorry if it's already been covered, I don't want to skim through 22 pages for the information.

It's been confirmed that Zelda, Dark Pit, and Captain Falcon only received Final Smash changes.

The only thing left is whatever changed for Wii Fit & Cloud.

 

[SenpaiSmash]

I want to know who can look at Jigglypuff and Zelda and say, "oh yeah, that's fine. They're fine."

 

[Linkshot]

I want to know who can look at Jigglypuff and Zelda and say, "oh yeah, that's fine. They're fine."

Doubles players

But really I feel like Sakurai wants different characters to excel at different modes instead of focusing on viability in 1v1 No Items setting. Besides, Zelda and Jiggs are so rare that anybody that plays them online usually excels at them and skews the records, especially so because input lag makes more of their moves safe in neutral.

Our strict settings are going to leave some characters behind. It's the nature of structures.

 

[Teshie U]

Doubles players

But really I feel like Sakurai wants different characters to excel at different modes instead of focusing on viability in 1v1 No Items setting. Besides, Zelda and Jiggs are so rare that anybody that plays them online usually excels at them and skews the records, especially so because input lag makes more of their moves safe in neutral.

Our strict settings are going to leave some characters behind. It's the nature of structures.

People always seem to forget how restricted (or unrestricted at times) our rules are.

The game is even balanced around FD only, so its not wonder they thought Cloud wouldn't be so annoying with all the platform camping. No way to really balanced for diverse modes and rulesets.

 

[rrrRandy]

Gunla Methacrylate The listed changes for Charizard's Up Smash are a little scrambled, and missing some things. Re-reading from https://www.diffchecker.com/6gfvtyib the patch notes should look like this instead:

Usmash:

• Usmash First Hit:
  • Aerial Hit X Position: 10.5 -> 11.0
  • Ground Hit:
    • Hitbox 1:
      • Bone swapped with previous Hitbox 2 (equivalent to swapping the two hitboxes in priority)
      • 1.1.3 Hitbox 2 X/Z Position -> 1.1.4 Hitbox 1 X/Z Position: 4.2/3.2 -> 2.5/1.5
      • 1.1.3 Hitbox 2 WBKB -> 1.1.4 Hitbox 1 WBKB: 40 -> 30
      • 1.1.3 Hitbox 2 Angle -> 1.1.4 Hitbox 1 Angle: 100 -> 140
      • 1.1.3 Hitbox 2 Size -> 1.1.4 Hitbox 1 Size: 5 -> 4.2
      • Intangibility X/Y Position: 4/0 -> 2/1 (I don't know what a "Defensive Hitbox" is, but it doesn't mean intangibility on the wings because Charizard's wings are always completely intangible.)
    • Hitbox 2:
      • 1.1.3 Hitbox 1 X/Y Position -> 1.1.4 Hitbox 2 X/Y Position: 1/2 -> 4/-1.5
      • Intangibility X Position: 2.5 -> 2
    • Hitbox 3:
      • Angle: 270 -> 280
      • Size: 4 -> 5
• Usmash Second Hit:
  • Hitbox 1/2/3 KBG: 105/103/101 -> 107/107/107

 

[Linkshot]

Gunla Methacrylate The listed changes for Charizard's are a little scrambled, and missing some things. Re-reading from https://www.diffchecker.com/6gfvtyib the patch notes should look like this instead:

Usmash:

• Usmash First Hit:
  • Aerial Hit X Positiion: 10.5 -> 11.0
  • Ground Hit:
    • Hitbox 1:
      • Bone swapped with previous Hitbox 2 (equivalent to swapping the two hitboxes in priority)
      • 1.1.3 Hitbox 2 X/Z Position -> 1.1.4 Hitbox 1 X/Z Position: 4.2/3.2 -> 2.5/1.5
      • 1.1.3 Hitbox 2 WBKB -> 1.1.4 Hitbox 1 WBKB: 40 -> 30
      • 1.1.3 Hitbox 2 Angle -> 1.1.4 Hitbox 1 Angle: 100 -> 140
      • 1.1.3 Hitbox 2 Size -> 1.1.4 Hitbox 1 Size: 5 -> 4.2
      • Intangibility X/Y Position: 4/0 -> 2/1 (I don't know what a "Defensive Hitbox" is, but it doesn't mean intangibility on the wings because Charizard's wings are always completely intangible.)
    • Hitbox 2:
      • 1.1.3 Hitbox 1 X/Y Position -> 1.1.4 Hitbox 2 X/Y Position: 1/2 -> 4/-1.5
      • Intangibility X Position: 2.5 -> 2
    • Hitbox 3:
      • Angle: 270 -> 280
      • Size: 4 -> 5
• Usmash Second Hit:
  • Hitbox 1/2/3 KBG: 105/103/101 -> 107/107/107

Defensive Hitbox might mean they straight up block incoming attacks now (like Palu's Aegis Shield, or G&W's Diver Helmet). Functionally, this means if an attack were big enough to go through the wings and hit Zard's body, the wings will now instead take the hitbox and protect Zard.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Defensive Hitbox might mean they straight up block incoming attacks now (like Palu's Aegis Shield, or G&W's Diver Helmet).

I've never learned what a defensive hitbox means, but I know that isn't it. Otherwise, that means all of Toon Link's attacks were given this property in 1.11. Several moves with no perceivable difference except for a defensive hitbox addition.

 

[Lavani]

I still don't know what they do either, but I do know they're primarily on slash/pierce element moves. They don't have anything to do with intangibility/invincibility or disjoint. Maybe they're involved in generating on-hit effects or something idk

 

[Gunla]

Yeah, not really too sure what to call them exactly. Effect boxes? I mean, does it actually cause a difference in the move? Is it just there to be there? Are they even relevant enough for a changelist note?

 

[Methacrylate]

Gunla Methacrylate The listed changes for Charizard's are a little scrambled, and missing some things. Re-reading from https://www.diffchecker.com/6gfvtyib the patch notes should look like this instead:

Usmash:

• Usmash First Hit:
  • Aerial Hit X Positiion: 10.5 -> 11.0
  • Ground Hit:
    • Hitbox 1:
      • Bone swapped with previous Hitbox 2 (equivalent to swapping the two hitboxes in priority)
      • 1.1.3 Hitbox 2 X/Z Position -> 1.1.4 Hitbox 1 X/Z Position: 4.2/3.2 -> 2.5/1.5
      • 1.1.3 Hitbox 2 WBKB -> 1.1.4 Hitbox 1 WBKB: 40 -> 30
      • 1.1.3 Hitbox 2 Angle -> 1.1.4 Hitbox 1 Angle: 100 -> 140
      • 1.1.3 Hitbox 2 Size -> 1.1.4 Hitbox 1 Size: 5 -> 4.2
      • Intangibility X/Y Position: 4/0 -> 2/1 (I don't know what a "Defensive Hitbox" is, but it doesn't mean intangibility on the wings because Charizard's wings are always completely intangible.)
    • Hitbox 2:
      • 1.1.3 Hitbox 1 X/Y Position -> 1.1.4 Hitbox 2 X/Y Position: 1/2 -> 4/-1.5
      • Intangibility X Position: 2.5 -> 2
    • Hitbox 3:
      • Angle: 270 -> 280
      • Size: 4 -> 5
• Usmash Second Hit:
  • Hitbox 1/2/3 KBG: 105/103/101 -> 107/107/107

So basically the only changes you suggest is to remove reference to the defensive hitboxes and flip hitboxes 1 and 2 of the first hit. I am fine with both. I did say in my original post that I assumed it was intangibility.

Here is a list of characters with defensive hitboxes:

Greninja
Bowser
Link
Charizard
Lucina
Marth
Toon Link
Metaknight
Mii Swordsman
Pit
Dark Pit
Roy
Sheik

The defensive hitboxes almost always have the same X/Y coordinates as the actual hitboxes. I assumed it was intangibility due to the its presence on certain moves such as Sheik's upb.