It says 6, but it's not. Should be the same as it was before. I recall it being like that for some jump squats when character parameters were first released.
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Meta "The Final Content" [1.1.4] Patch Discussion
- Thread starter Shaya
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arbustopachon
Smash Journeyman
Oh thats dissapointing, thanks for clearing it up tho!
Sammi Husky
Smash Apprentice
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Are you positive? That field matches most of the other character's confirmed jumpsquat values, whereas no other fields do. And iirc these fields were tested by poking them in memory while the game was running by @Dantarion
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Sammi Husky
Smash Apprentice
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Interesting. These fields are just base values, so it is possible that through ACMD or MSC that the values are changed later. For example, through having a frame speed modifier in the jumpsquat subaction. There is also the possibilty that values get changed after loading altogether since Dr. Mario's attributes are mostly the same as Mario's here aside from landing lag, yet we know for sure that dr is much slower.
EDIT: Also, palutena is down for no changes but she has a preeetty sizable parameter change. It's unknown what the field does, but its 36 -> 16
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Yep, I'm positive. Ike's is off as well and I asked back then.
Luigi player
Smash Master
oh, there's even air-deceleration shown! nice :D I was waiting for that since it isn't mentioned on Kuroganehammer
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
D
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Wait, it was?
Ffamran
The Smooth Devil Mod
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While it would be nice to have one source to have everything... It's not possible when there's really too much of everything, so stuff just gets cut if there's way too much stuff. A source focused on basic frame data would cut out anything that doesn't involve moves, a more in-depth one might involve movement, and an even more in-depth one might involve miscellaneous data like item-throwing, ledge getups, etc. There's also the whole everyone has their idea of what should be or shouldn't be on frame data. Regardless and for future reference, check out @Toomai's post here from way back when: http://smashboards.com/threads/smas...ow-with-raw-real-values.383217/#post-18656263.
For those too lazy to click a link...
Also, ground movement here: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-running-walking-speed-rankings.371564/page-2#post-18647333.
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Masonomace
Yeah Shulk, get stuck in!
So. . .
's Unknown@00E0 reduced from 0.065385 to 0.064615, item toss strength reduced from 0.906 to 0.896, & Unknown@00EC reduced from 0.95 to 0.946667.
' Unknown@00E0 reduced from 0.062308 to 0.061538, item toss strength reduced from 0.866 to 0.856, & Unknown@00EC reduced from 0.936667 to 0.933333.
's air speed was reduced from 0.658 to 0.63.
's Unknown@00E0 was reduced from 0.06 to 0.059231, item toss strength was reduced from 0.82334 to 0.81334, & Unknown@00EC reduced from 0.926667 to 0.923333.
's Unknown@0194 was reduced from 36 to 16.
That's educational.
's Unknown@00E0 reduced from 0.065385 to 0.064615, item toss strength reduced from 0.906 to 0.896, & Unknown@00EC reduced from 0.95 to 0.946667.' Unknown@00E0 reduced from 0.062308 to 0.061538, item toss strength reduced from 0.866 to 0.856, & Unknown@00EC reduced from 0.936667 to 0.933333.'s air speed was reduced from 0.658 to 0.63.'s Unknown@00E0 was reduced from 0.06 to 0.059231, item toss strength was reduced from 0.82334 to 0.81334, & Unknown@00EC reduced from 0.926667 to 0.923333.'s Unknown@0194 was reduced from 36 to 16.That's educational.
Sammi Husky
Smash Apprentice
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Yep. Well when each character has 353 individual attributes to search through, finding what all of them do isn't so easy. All in all, if anybody notices something going on with those characters and can't figure out what it is.. it's probably whatever those values did
Likely a trickle effect after from changing the weight.
TMJ_Jack
Smash Journeyman
WHY NERF DEDEDE. WHY.
Falco's air speed and air accel had buffed in ...1.1.1? (from 0.893 to 0.93 and from 0.07 to 0.09, respectively)
idk when but I confitmed he had these old values at least in 1.0.2.
Here's some estimations with Samme Hasky's great work.
Value AV seems Shield Break Bounce Velocity, judging from Jigg's value(about 25 times larger than other's).
If that's correct, Value AU may be Shield Size and Value AW is Shield Strength?
Value CE to CI is probably Jab2, Jab3, Ftilt2, Ftilt3 and Fsmash2 window, Fair2 and Fair3 wiindow (only related to Beyonetta) is missing though.
edit:
I made comparison with clone chars.
idk when but I confitmed he had these old values at least in 1.0.2.
Here's some estimations with Samme Hasky's great work.
Value AV seems Shield Break Bounce Velocity, judging from Jigg's value(about 25 times larger than other's).
If that's correct, Value AU may be Shield Size and Value AW is Shield Strength?
Value CE to CI is probably Jab2, Jab3, Ftilt2, Ftilt3 and Fsmash2 window, Fair2 and Fair3 wiindow (only related to Beyonetta) is missing though.
edit:
I made comparison with clone chars.
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Lavani
Indigo Destiny
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AV being shield break bounce velocity seems accurate. A bit of comparing shield sizes makes me believe AU could be shield size, but there was one anomaly in that Giga Mac's shield is bigger than Dedede's despite both being 13.4 - there might just be a modifier on that though, like with Dr. Mario.
I don't know what shield strength would imply. Don't all shields have the same health (supposedly 42)?
I don't know what shield strength would imply. Don't all shields have the same health (supposedly 42)?
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Hahaha. I think it's funny because I was sitting there in 1.1.1 trying to compare his aerial acceleration and max air speed with Fox but I was going nowhere so I dismissed it as placebo. Finally, Falco can backup his prefer the air statement. Just so we're clear, the little air speed increase doesn't do anything for him. The aerial acceleration is a big deal and I can't believe no one was able to prove it let alone notice.
Ffamran
The Smooth Devil Mod
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Wait... wut? The only way to visually show this now - Darn you, unbelievers of frame data! -, assuming everyone's patched everything, is to check between a patchless system and a patched system.
I wonder what else was a missed since Ganondorf, Kirby, and someone else? had weight changes in 1.1.3, but nobody found out until 1.1.4. Using diff checkers might not help if people don't suspect those changes and they go unnoticed however minor they may be. So, with that... Falco's air speed is still below average, but it's not "bad" - still bad, but relatively not as bad - and not barely any different than the Pits at top air speed. Air acceleration-wise, this makes him among the second-fastest alongside Ness and Pikachu. Falco and Pikachu accelerate at the same speed, but Falco's air speed is higher which is the opposite for Palutena where Falco's air speed is higher, but Pally accelerates slower... Hmm... I wonder why it felt - oh look, feels - like Fox was always faster and easier to move through in the air... Perhaps because from a dash, Fox's momentum is much higher?
Anyway, could you publish your spreadsheet (to the web)? Helps since people won't have to request for access to your spreadsheet. Makes it all more public-like.
I remember this
But yeah a couple of jump squats are off, but I know that @Fox Is Openly Deceptive told me a while ago that Samus's jumpsquat got changed from 6 to 4 a long time ago and it was never documented.
Sammi Husky
column AA is max fall speedI could probably give you a hand with labeling some of these maybe.
Column Z is Gravity
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Ffamran
The Smooth Devil Mod
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Checked sixriver and they're still listing Samus's jump as frame 6: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14LgHib3qdGrPIG3fCbVk7MRRIUNMeiRUwf6GBJjjsS8/htmlview?pli=1#.I remember this
But yeah a couple of jump squats are off, but I know that @Fox Is Openly Deceptive told me a while ago that Samus's jumpsquat got changed from 6 to 4 a long time ago and it was never documented.
I could probably give you a hand with labeling some of these maybe.
Column Z is Gravity
Question is when were jump frames documented? If we knew, then we could figure out what patch changed them... Don't know when sixriver started, but if it was with the 3DS, then it's possible that ~1.0.4 changed Samus's jump... Doesn't matter really.
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Zapp Branniglenn
Smash Lord
Hmm, assuming her jumpsquat was ever 6 to begin with (let's face it, a lot of our sources were hastily put together in 2014 and 95% made up of in-game data that's not easy to read/interpret), it would have to be 1.06 or sooner. I remember @LordWilliam1234 and myself being the only manual testers for 1.08, which is important since nobody could seem to accurately read anything that qualifies as a parameter change, like jumpsquat animations. There was manual testing before this point, but no roster-wide sweeps of endlag or animation changes. We just relied on data miners and placebo junkies to tell us where to look. But my methods haven't changed since 1.08. For seeing if landing lag had changed, I'd have pre and post patch side by side doing the same short hop aerial. If jumpsquat were changed in patch 1.08 to 1.14, then I'd either notice it, or misreport a landing lag change of 2 for all aerials. Either way, it would have been figured out.
As for what patch specifically, it's anybody's guess. You'd think it's 1.04 since that was a big balance patch that targeted all but about ten characters. However, Samus was one of those untouched characters, as far as we could tell anyway. I have doubts they changed that one thing without tweaking the rest of her air game. There was also that brief 1.05 period where the 3DS version was patched but Wii U didn't get that stuff until 1.06. The japanese 3DS version apparently got two patches before US release, no data on those. Dantarion claimed that 1.03 had no character balancing. My money's on her jumpsquat always being 4.
As for what patch specifically, it's anybody's guess. You'd think it's 1.04 since that was a big balance patch that targeted all but about ten characters. However, Samus was one of those untouched characters, as far as we could tell anyway. I have doubts they changed that one thing without tweaking the rest of her air game. There was also that brief 1.05 period where the 3DS version was patched but Wii U didn't get that stuff until 1.06. The japanese 3DS version apparently got two patches before US release, no data on those. Dantarion claimed that 1.03 had no character balancing. My money's on her jumpsquat always being 4.
Sammi Husky
Smash Apprentice
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I knew gravity was somewhere around there :D I went ahead and added the names to the columns.I remember this
But yeah a couple of jump squats are off, but I know that @Fox Is Openly Deceptive told me a while ago that Samus's jumpsquat got changed from 6 to 4 a long time ago and it was never documented.
I could probably give you a hand with labeling some of these maybe.
Column Z is Gravity
In regards to the attributes being changed one patch or another, it's fairly easy to dump them and make a spreadsheet and i happen to have copies of all WiiU updates saved from 1.1 onwards except 1.1.2 since it just fixed diddy's grab glitch so i might as well add dumps of them to this spreadsheet as well. I should be able to get them up sometime tomorrow
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This would actually be super helpful. I love looking at this sort of **** so when I find things/identify stuff I'll let you know what they are.
TMJ_Jack
Smash Journeyman
These are part of the same patch. Their meaning had only been figured out a few days ago and haven't updated the official patch notes.
From gameplay, I can give my own personal confirmation that Dedede is a slower in the air. I felt like my combos and follow ups were a little less reliable, but I dismissed it because I figured I was in a slump or something. Nope. Dedede's just slower.
Pretty stupid decision to be honest. Dedede's already a pretty broken character. Who the hell thought it made sense to nerf him?
From gameplay, I can give my own personal confirmation that Dedede is a slower in the air. I felt like my combos and follow ups were a little less reliable, but I dismissed it because I figured I was in a slump or something. Nope. Dedede's just slower.
Pretty stupid decision to be honest. Dedede's already a pretty broken character. Who the hell thought it made sense to nerf him?
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
It wasn't done to nerf him. They did it probably because they wanted to further emphasize his low aerial mobility against the rest of the cast. Like how slow the Dedede in the background of Dreamland is going. It's kind of dumb regardless.
Also, I don't agree that you noticed it. It's a very small change and it won't affect anything a Dedede does in a match. Aerial acceleration is the same anyway.
Also, I don't agree that you noticed it. It's a very small change and it won't affect anything a Dedede does in a match. Aerial acceleration is the same anyway.
It's been updated; apologies on the delay.
LancerStaff
Smash Hero
If anything it was done so DDD couldn't go underneath or up and over a stage or something casuals struggle with. Either that or they matched the Wii U version to the 3DS version and nobody noticed the entire time.
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Strange number changes like these are often hard to explain.
It's definitely a negative, but it's arguably so small that you wonder why it was possibly necessary.
For all we know it could be an issue of a bug or unintended interaction that, as sad as it sounds (I've played games where this has happened though, sigh Shaco), was significantly easier to resolve through a seemingly rudimentary change than it was to actually bug-fix.
It could even be a band aid solution.
Now it's a bit of a stretch considering there is or was not any known bug with Dedede from our perspective but there are countless interactions where something like this could impact.
Items, stages, his special moves.
There's so little explanation otherwise - it's extra unfortunate that he can be so so strong in an online setting at low/mid level; I would hope that's not the reason he was nerfed but otherwise that's likely all we have for an assumed justification.
It's definitely a negative, but it's arguably so small that you wonder why it was possibly necessary.
For all we know it could be an issue of a bug or unintended interaction that, as sad as it sounds (I've played games where this has happened though, sigh Shaco), was significantly easier to resolve through a seemingly rudimentary change than it was to actually bug-fix.
It could even be a band aid solution.
Now it's a bit of a stretch considering there is or was not any known bug with Dedede from our perspective but there are countless interactions where something like this could impact.
Items, stages, his special moves.
"It seems like Dedede can fall through a stage when he's at 0.66 air speed but it won't happen at 0.63 or lower"
- Sweet! You're a genius Programmer-kun~ SHIPPING IT
- Sweet! You're a genius Programmer-kun~ SHIPPING IT
There's so little explanation otherwise - it's extra unfortunate that he can be so so strong in an online setting at low/mid level; I would hope that's not the reason he was nerfed but otherwise that's likely all we have for an assumed justification.
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Masonomace
Yeah Shulk, get stuck in!
From my perspective about Dedede's air speed nerf, I find it kinda unnecessary. Shield art made Shulk have the absolute worst air speed value in the game within a Vanilla metagame. But now, Dedede has an air speed value even worse than Shield Shulk. . .I can't help but smirk at that, since y'know, Shulk would have that "Best & Worst" title of whatever.
Doesn't really matter though. Dedede has multiple jumps & can still make it back due to the current recovery options he has, especially since Super Dedede Jump ascends a great deal of height just because you're airborne & using it.
Doesn't really matter though. Dedede has multiple jumps & can still make it back due to the current recovery options he has, especially since Super Dedede Jump ascends a great deal of height just because you're airborne & using it.
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I confirmed Falco's air mobility changed in 1.0.8, it's the same time his Fair landing reduced from 32 to 25.
btw, I couldn't find any patch note mention about Olimar's smash attack changes in 1.0.6. I made spread sheet from all color Pikmins cause it's not listed on Kurogane Hummer.
btw, I couldn't find any patch note mention about Olimar's smash attack changes in 1.0.6. I made spread sheet from all color Pikmins cause it's not listed on Kurogane Hummer.
HermitHelmet
Smash Journeyman
So now that we're a month in, what's the general consensus on Bayonetta and Corrin? Overpowered, too strong, too weak?
randomguy1235
Smash Apprentice
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ARGHETH
Smash Lord
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It really isn't.
This should really be in some other thread...this isn't the place for this.
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Reposting from official notes; a new patch is out and we are investigating if there are changes as fast as we can.
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Radical Larry
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Ho boy! There are balance changes! Quick, get the Ganondorf players!
Samus too! Samus's N-Air deals more damage! She's getting buffs!
Samus too! Samus's N-Air deals more damage! She's getting buffs!
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Tselel (5805)
Smash Cadet
(Screaming in the distance with excitement/fear)
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