The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

[Shahryar2010]

There are some stages that would help Mario/hinder Wolf well like Lylat and Castle Siege and places that would go the other way like FD and Delfino. I do think that Mario benefits from more stages, but I'm fully sure how much that would affect a ratio.

I'm unsure between even and 55:45 Wolf. I think it might be in between

Im going with 50:50 arguable for 55:45 Wolf

 

[waterfall6464]

Ehh, i'm going with 55:45 Wolfs advantage, MIGHT be even with good counterpicking

 

[JUDGE]

what the two above me said^^

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Yeah, I agree w/ you guys too. 50/50 or arguable for 55:45 Wolf. 50/50 is for stage-counterpicking in my opinion w/ Mario.

 

[JUDGE]

do wolf actually have a good CP against mario btw?
not really i think...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yes, we do. I don't think you want to fight a good Wolf on Halberd or Delphino. On the other hand I can't see Mario having the advantage on ANY stage.

 

[A2ZOMG]

No, actually, I wouldn't mind taking Wolf to Halberd if I had no other options to CP. The low ceiling benefits Mario a lot more than it benefits Wolf, making it easier for Mario to get vertical KOs if necessary. Terrain discrepancies as simple as the slope and the platform also work in Mario's favor on that stage in giving him a few more zoning options.

I would be cautious of Delphino if I were you. Mario has a wall lock from like 0-70 with his Jab combo, and the walkoffs mean he can get easy B-throw KOs, which I'd consider better than any other kind of generic walkoff abuse that Wolf might have (aside from not getting recovery gimped).

Mario wins on RC definitely. A combination of having a wall lock, being floatier, and being MUCH better at camping on this stage makes it more favorable for him.

Norfair is also better for Mario than it is for Wolf, but usually banned. Considering how much more Mario can camp on any stage with wacky terrain, I'd give this one to Mario. Also, Mario's edgecamping which is already really good gets better on this stage, while Wolf's recovery is still pretty ******** even with extra ledges.

Mario I would say also wins on Lylat, due to the swaying of the stage in general limiting Wolf's camping/zoning more than it limits Mario's, not to mention Wolf's recovery requiring some ******** precision that can get screwed if the stage sways a little too much. If Mario really knows how to Cape Glide, he can move around with some pretty sick mobility on this stage too, although chances are you won't see that every day.

Wolf as far as I've experienced only has the advantage on FD and SV, other stages the matchup is essentially neutral, give or take a few points, and then a few other examples definitely lean more towards Mario due to Mario generally handling terrain issues and recovery pressure better.

 

[Inferno3044]

Here is my idea of who wins on what stage. Anything not said is either mostly neutral or banned where i am (NY/NJ). I'll explain if needed.

Wolf: FD, SV

Mario: YI, Lylat, Frigate, Castle Siege, RC, Brinstar

Delfino isn't a good Mario stage. It has water that halts our edgeguarding or walkoff places that really don't benefit us. Jab locks are so rare. I've done it once against an actual opponent. I think Wolf will benefit more from this than we would.

Most of those stages that I say Mario would benefit more at is mostly that Mario can do better on combat wise and camping wise while Wolf gets hindered on these especially on Lylat and Castle Siege. Brinstar is just a good Mario stage and I believe not so good a Wolf stage.

@Judge - You just agreed to someone saying 55:45 Wolf arguable for 50:50 and agreed to someone saying 50:50 arguable for 55:45 Wolf. Which one is it?

I think we need to stick a ratio on this thing and end it. This took much longer than I thought

 

[A2ZOMG]

50/50 arguable 45/55 just because Wolf has better neutral stages.

 

[Javon89]

I'm going 45/55 Wolf but lets see what the Wolfs decide....

 

[DUCKAtl]

G&W, if you go to turn him around with the cape, a good G&W will wip out tht danky b air and ****, and Marth has so good spacing it gets so annoying, but luckily with G&W, F.L.U.D.D. helps lag tht b air leaving him open for a quick run grab

 

[Inferno3044]

G&W, if you go to turn him around with the cape, a good G&W will wip out tht danky b air and ****, and Marth has so good spacing it gets so annoying, but luckily with G&W, F.L.U.D.D. helps lag tht b air leaving him open for a quick run grab

1. This has nothing to do with anything. Wolf is being discussed.
2. Why would you cape G&W? Maybe as a mindgame, but thats it
3. Just get inside Marth and ****.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

I agree w/ A2, Neutrals - 45/55, Gay CPs - 50/50

 

[Inferno3044]

I agree w/ A2, Neutrals - 45/55, Gay CPs - 50/50

Would anybody complain if I put both ratios like we did for Marth? Apparently he does better on neutrals and we do better on CPs

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Wolf beats Mario on Halberd because he benefits more from the low ceiling that Mario does. Mario's only vertical KO move is usmash but Wolf's fair is a lot more practical and dangerous. Wolf is one of the hardest characters to kill vertiacally and benefits from low ceilings more than most other characters do.
RC is Wolf's favour because he can abuse his superior aerial mobility and his high jumps to camp Mario really badly. LC is even, Yoshi's is a very good Wolf stage and so is Brinstar.

CP stages have little impact on this match-up. It's 55/45 Wolf's favour, with or without CP stages.

 

[Matador]

I didn't even bother reading A2's argument because I know how biased he is from his arguments about G&W and Ganondorf.

Please don't do that. At least keep those kinds of comments to yourself.

Wolf beats Mario on Halberd because he benefits more from the low ceiling that Mario does. Mario's only vertical KO move is usmash but Wolf's fair is a lot more practical and dangerous. Wolf is one of the hardest characters to kill vertiacally and benefits from low ceilings more than most other characters do.
RC is Wolf's favour because he can abuse his superior aerial mobility and his high jumps to camp Mario really badly. LC is even, Yoshi's is a very good Wolf stage and so is Brinstar.

CP stages have little impact on this match-up. It's 55/45 Wolf's favour, with or without CP stages.

Admittedly, I'm not too knowledgeable on counterpicks; never gave them too much thought.

I do know inherent advantages that Mario has on certain stages, however. Halberd's second phase offers Mario easier gimping than usual because of the space on the outer edges of the stage and the lower platform. Both characteristics assist Fludd and weak Nairs offstage. The third phase's narrow horizontal blastzones help Fsmash and Dsmash kills for Mario, as well as Fsmash and Dsmash kills for Wolf. I'd personally call this an even stage, not a CP for either. There aren't any clear advantages that'd help in the long run. I suppose if you apply that thinking to all of the stages you've mentioned, you'd find that neither party gains anything substantial from those counterpicks. After all, BOTH sides have benefits to every stage in the game in some form or fashion.

Mario shouldn't even be saving his Usmash for KOs in this matchup, so vertical KOs on Mario's part would be misusing one of his key attacks of this matchup. It's one of the only attacks that Mario has that can compete with Wolf's Bair and the rest of his attacks that outright beat us in priority/range. It's also great for aerial tech chasing (Dthrow -> charged Usmash in the direction of your DI).

Just my $0.02

 

[DUCKAtl]

1. This has nothing to do with anything. Wolf is being discussed.
2. Why would you cape G&W? Maybe as a mindgame, but thats it
3. Just get inside Marth and ****.

yeah i posted without checking the title, my bad, but against wolf......... Ive never really even played a suitable Wolf!

 

[JUDGE]

@Judge - You just agreed to someone saying 55:45 Wolf arguable for 50:50 and agreed to someone saying 50:50 arguable for 55:45 Wolf. Which one is it?

oh did i?^^
lol i am sorry i think i got something wrong
in that case i would say 50:50 arguable 55:45 wolf
@A2 i think wolf benefits more of the low celling on halberd
even if we could kill him earlier vertically, we still have to get him to around 110 with good DI and we already die through a dsmash at around 90% i think...
but we do have good CP against wolf like lylat and yoshi's, due to the high cellings
and a sweetspotted fsmash means free kill for mario at mid/high %
RC is pretty good for both, momentum dependend
he may space us good but we would juggle the **** out of him when the momentum is on our side
and as we all know mario has a lot of tools to get out of bad situations

 

[Gindler]

Oh, another somewhat useful tip (since I see mario's mess up here a lot). Don't try to shield grab wolf's Dsmash at kill percents (100ish), the pushback is enough where if he pulls a metaknight (two dsmashes in a row) the second one will hit you. If you perfect shield then grab away, or whatever else you want really just make sure it's a perfect shield.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario shouldn't even be saving his Usmash for KOs in this matchup, so vertical KOs on Mario's part would be misusing one of his key attacks of this matchup. It's one of the only attacks that Mario has that can compete with Wolf's Bair and the rest of his attacks that outright beat us in priority/range. It's also great for aerial tech chasing (Dthrow -> charged Usmash in the direction of your DI).

Wolf isn't DDD or Snake. You can actually kill him vertically at 130ish, whereas you have to wait until past 150% to kill those guys. The goal is also to get him offstage after you are done juggling him, and usually attacks trade hits.

The reason why I think RC is in Mario's favor is because he's floatier, which helps you more in navigating the moving stage, and because his fireballs are better camp tools on non-linear terrain.

 

[Matador]

Wolf isn't DDD or Snake. You can actually kill him vertically at 130ish, whereas you have to wait until past 150% to kill those guys. The goal is also to get him offstage after you are done juggling him, and usually attacks trade hits.

The reason why I think RC is in Mario's favor is because he's floatier, which helps you more in navigating the moving stage, and because his fireballs are better camp tools on non-linear terrain.

Well, IIRC, he's sort of like CF on Brawl/Melee. Some characters aren't especially heavy, but are simply hard to star KO. Wolf's among those.

I'd have to test again to be perfectly sure.

 

[Inferno3044]

I see that some people say even, but it seems that it can be both ratios because people say its either even arguable for 55:45 Wolf or vice versa. Can we put both ratios and move on?

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Put 50:50 arguable for 55/45 or 45:55 arguable for 50:50. Can you guys discuss Fox or someone else?

 

[Inferno3044]

Wolf beats Mario on Halberd because he benefits more from the low ceiling that Mario does. Mario's only vertical KO move is usmash but Wolf's fair is a lot more practical and dangerous. Wolf is one of the hardest characters to kill vertiacally and benefits from low ceilings more than most other characters do.
RC is Wolf's favour because he can abuse his superior aerial mobility and his high jumps to camp Mario really badly. LC is even, Yoshi's is a very good Wolf stage and so is Brinstar.

CP stages have little impact on this match-up. It's 55/45 Wolf's favour, with or without CP stages.

Put 50:50 arguable for 55/45 or 45:55 arguable for 50:50. Can you guys discuss Fox or someone else?

Hence why I wanna put both like we did for Marth. I don't see why not do Fox next. Anybody second that?

 

[Shahryar2010]

Yes Fox next is good.

 

[waterfall6464]

I agree with Fox next.

Seems even like with most of Mario's mid tier matchups

 

[Inferno3044]

As much as I don't like to compare characters, most of the things Wolf had for him, Fox doesn't. He isn't that good at spacing from what I know, he is light weight, pretty easy to gimp (easier than Wolf), and not that good range (maybe a bit more than Mario, but nothing significant). On the other hand, Fox has different things that go for him. Although his blaster doesn't stun, it's a very good way to unstale moves. Reflecting won't help at all because our reflector doesn't stay out so we will probably have to approach. He can rack damage pretty well. His Utilt kinda works like our Utilt (meaning they can rack damage at low percents). His Usmash is really good, but it's kinda easy to see coming sometimes. It has really good kill power. You don't wanna get hit by it. He can shine spike you although it's nothing like how it was in melee (seriously, in melee it was so dumb). I got caught by that forgetting all about it. He also has a better ground game and attacks quickly.

Now what we can do. Fireballs can do some things to help catch off guard, but they can be reflected. Use them sparingly and mainly to approach. We can Utilt him from 0-30ish (more than Fox can do to us) and his fastfalling makes it easy to combo. He is light, so we can kill him at pretty low percents with Fsmash or Usmash. Once we get in, we are probably gonna stay in for a bit. I'm not sure if Fox has a combo breaker. Our air game is better than his and we should be able to space well against him.

Stage wise it's the same as all the space animals. They like flat stages and we do better on ones with platforms. Halberd can benefit you both, but I wouldn't take him there personally. Better stages for us. Fox isn't good on Lylat, Castle Siege, and Brinstar so one of those would be good. Frigate would also help you with your edgeguarding and YI and RC should be good for you as well. Fox players will probably prosper on FD, SV, Delfino, and Japes if it's legal.

I guess right now I see even or 55:45 Mario.

 

[Shahryar2010]

A nice advantage is he is lightweight so we can kill at 100%-120% if we keep our smashes fresh but if unpredicted. We work better on platforms and they work more well on flat ones. We can juggle easily due to his fast falling. He is easy to gimp, not 70:30 easy but easy.

Although fox's moves are faster than us and he could easily outrun us and up tilt can juggle as well. But he just doesnt have the advantages Wolf has.

At worst i would say 50:50 and at best 60:40 Mario, i wanna hear from the Fox players.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

I don't see a 60/40 in Mario's favor. I use to think Mario vs Fox is 55/45, I'll call it even. Some Fox players easy to predict their aerials b/c we can easily shield-grab them just like that. Fox is not good @ camping b/c you know his laser don't stun his opponents like Falco. And you guys is right, Fox is one of the easiest characters to throw off due to being light-weight. Fox is more predictable than Wolf. We can **** his recovery w/ the cape and FLUDD. Fox got some good smashes to fight off Mario. Yeah, of course, Mario have a better aerial game, Mario and Fox is even in ground game, and he's not like Wolf in the ground game part. Flat stages will benefit Fox just like Wolf. I'll call it 50/50 still. Btw is Mario and Fox have the same strength?

 

[Lightning93]

Wait... did anyone say gimping Fox was easier than gimping Wolf? I would have to disagree.

Rising Fair, Shine Stalls, Illusion, + Firefox are more than enough to make us worry free of a Mario spike, cape, or FLUDD. I'm not saying it's impossible for Fox to get gimped, but all Wolf has is side-b, and an up-b that has horrible ending momentum. Firefox can be curved, and Illusion can be canceled for longer distances. And that's assuming we even need to use Firefox or Illusion. Overall I would say it's easier to gimp Mario with Fox than vice-versa.

In terms of landing an upsmash, the thing is, you won't see it coming. That's because we rarely use it straight-up, and you can't see what doesn't exist. We'll usually combo into it from Dair or even Nair. Dsmash however should be a good kill move for us, it sends you guys at a good angle for gimping, since at that point cape stalling won't do you much good.

Fox and Mario combo each other pretty equally. But Fox can really outcamp Mario.

Also, don't believe platforms will help you too much. Fox has an excellent poking game with Uair and Fair, and Fox will tend to stay on the bottom levels of the stage.

I would say 55:45-50:50 Fox.

 

[Matt07]

Fox is lighter then Mario.

And I'd think Fox would have a slight advantage on Mario. Easier time racking up damage, forcing us to approach, and easier K.O options.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Fox don't have slight advantage. The advantages is his smashes I think and he's somewhat can outcamp Mario but the good thing is that the laser does not have a hit stun. They both can rack up damage w/ up tilt. On some stages like FD and SV, Fox will his laser to make us approach, other stages, we don't have to approach to Fox. I think Mario got better K.O options than Fox b/c we got the B-throw, smashes, cape, Fludd. Fox got smashes and reflector.

 

[Zhamy]

I had an old post last time we discussed Fox that more or less completely outlined the ground game.

Can someone find that thread? I'll look for it too, but it was a really useful post.

 

[vato_break]

55:45 fox's favor on big stages,50:50 on smaller ones.I played a fox in tourney today..fox's strat:run away lazor lazor pew pew

 

[Lightning93]

I had an old post last time we discussed Fox that more or less completely outlined the ground game.

Can someone find that thread? I'll look for it too, but it was a really useful post.

I vaguely remember it, but I don't remember it's specific location...

55:45 fox's favor on big stages,50:50 on smaller ones.I played a fox in tourney today..fox's strat:run away lazor lazor pew pew

Fox still has a really good close-range game. The only move I would worry about from Mario is a stuttered fsmash. It has pretty good range and can be hard to get around comparatively.

And how would Mario be able to smash Fox for a kill in the first place? Does he have any good setups? I understand it's going to happen, but how can you guarantee Fox won't just run away?

 

[JUDGE]

Wait... did anyone say gimping Fox was easier than gimping Wolf? I would have to disagree.

Rising Fair, Shine Stalls, Illusion, + Firefox are more than enough to make us worry free of a Mario spike, cape, or FLUDD. I'm not saying it's impossible for Fox to get gimped, but all Wolf has is side-b, and an up-b that has horrible ending momentum. Firefox can be curved, and Illusion can be canceled for longer distances. And that's assuming we even need to use Firefox or Illusion. Overall I would say it's easier to gimp Mario with Fox than vice-versa.

what the?
you say fox can gimp mario easier than mario gimp fox?
we don't mind if you shinestall, nair can put fox in a very bad situation
marios FLUDD screws both of fox recovery totally up.
nair is an excellent answer on your firefox when you recover diagonally
illusion can be caped pr FLUDDED back
edgehogging fox is more than easy.
and fox shinegimp is too predictable, we can capestall in the air and punish with a bair

In terms of landing an upsmash, the thing is, you won't see it coming. That's because we rarely use it straight-up, and you can't see what doesn't exist. We'll usually combo into it from Dair or even Nair. Dsmash however should be a good kill move for us, it sends you guys at a good angle for gimping, since at that point cape stalling won't do you much good.

Fox and Mario combo each other pretty equally. But Fox can really outcamp Mario.

Also, don't believe platforms will help you too much. Fox has an excellent poking game with Uair and Fair, and Fox will tend to stay on the bottom levels of the stage.

I would say 55:45-50:50 Fox.

in this point you are right
fox upsmash has a very strong knockback and can kill us pretty fast on stages with a low vertical celling
and dair is a very good setup for it
however due to fox lack of range you can easily shieldgrab most of his approaches(when he approachs) or OOS upb.
and at higher % we won't let you get in our range for a dair=>upsmash/dsmash
and this is the other point i want to mention.
fox don't outcamp mario.
we have much better options for camping like bair,FLUDD,cape,fireball stutter stepped fsmash our 5 frames gtfo dsmash and a lot of OOS options
and platforms do help very much cuz we can juggle the **** out of fox with our uptilt lock,bair,nair,dair,and UPAIR!!!
mario benefits mch more from platforms then fox

And how would Mario be able to smash Fox for a kill in the first place? Does he have any good setups? I understand it's going to happen, but how can you guarantee Fox won't just run away

the key for winning against fox are our OOS options
as far as i know fox' attacks don't cause too much shieldstun accept fsmash but this can still be punished cuz he makes one step forward
at mid% we can OOS bair/nair/ up b/grab to get fox out of the stage and gimp him and at higher % we can easy kill fox with an OOS upsmash which is really hard to avoid once you touched our shield and sometimes even with a stuttered fsmash

i would say this MU is even or maybe 55:45 mario


sorry for bad english^^

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fox only has two advantages over Mario, that's killing after predicting an air dodge, and running away.

After that, it's basically even, or Mario does it better. What Mario does better is pressure and edgeguard.

Mario also gets a reliable throw kill in this matchup due to how ridiculously light Fox is and how easily Fox tends to get shieldgrabbed. Wait until like 130-140ish or so and B-throw him near the edge. Up-smash out of shield and fresh aerials are also very good KO options against Fox.

Also, Fox's platform pressure game is pretty bad. Very few followups.

 

[Matador]

He's so light, lmfao. And so easy to combo. Edgeguarding's even easier...

charged fludd = profit

 

[JUDGE]

fox=light,fastfaller=mario eats him for breakfast

his recovery screams to get caped;fludded,naired^^

 

[Zhamy]

Also, Fox's platform pressure game is pretty bad. Very few followups.

Wait, are we talking about the same character?