The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

[JUDGE]

hmmm...fox platform pressure is pretty good as far as i know lol xDDDDDDDD
but this is momentum dependend

 

[Famous]

Mario wrecks foxes recovery...Get him close to a ledge you can just jab through his recovery options....

 

[Inferno3044]

FLUDD is very good against Fox. I think FLUDD is underrated. FLUDD can really halt your approaches and at kill percents you can follow it up with an Fsmash. It can gimp him easily whether its Fire fox or illusion. You can cape the illusion while it's going and same with Falco and I think Wolf (haven't tried because it's harder but I don't see why not). It has to be a quick reaction/prediction. ADHD can only do the infinite with IC's based on sound. In other words he hears the sound of his grabs and reacts. Same thing here. If you hear the little start up for illusion, phantasm, or whatever Wolf's is called and you are in line with them IMMEDIATELY pull out the cape. He'll hit it, turn around and you won't get damaged (I ljust tested this). FLUDD is probably safer and can lead to a follow up, but I'd go for the cape if I can. It depends on their position on which one to do. Another way to punish illusion is to space like a beast and Fsmash him during the move (Hard to do, but it just shows your awesome spacing).

I guess a plus not said is that Fox can momentum cancel with B reversal shine I'm guessing that'll help.

@Famous I didn't know that. Mario's jab is too good.

 

[Shahryar2010]

WTF its not 55:45 Fox, he aint Wolf or Falco.

 

[JUDGE]

i don't see a big problem in fox
i only played one good fox and the matches were pretty even^^
i still wait for Lightning93's answer.

 

[Darthlegolas]

i would def have to say 55:45 Mario as soon as fox is off the stage hes dead
Cape,fludd,cape stall on ledge, or even just jab him when he is on edge of stage til he has to use UP B and then cape over.
Fox has upSmash and shine stall but easily countered o and Uair
Mario hands down id wanna push it and say any higher than 55:45
btw its not wolf easier gimp

 

[Lightning93]

In every single gimping situation you guys are offering, you didn't say ANYTHING about rising Fair! If spaced properly, we can avoid most spikes and then use shine stalling to catch you guys off guard and make our recovery. Good Foxes don't run into obvious gimps unless they're FORCED too, and Fair makes it so we have time. On the contrary to Mario, who can recover in only one direction. However, I am willing to say the gimping game is closer to equal, because I see it like this:

Mario's Gimping Options = Fox's recovery options
Fox's gimping options > Mario's recovery options (by a little bit, but seriously Dair, shine, Bair, and even Nair can be enough to prevent Mario from reaching the stage)

I actually played a real good Mario last night, and although Mario has good mid-range camping (Bair, Fireball, Fsmash) his far-range is lacking. Both characters do combo each other well in this MU, and in this regard they are even. People have to also understand though, is that OoS Mario options rarely work on Fox because Fox won't be attacking your shield. In other words, you have to approach. Most of Fox's combos are punished based. And honestly, I think Brawl has been out long enough for Foxes to realize attacking a shield will result in an obvious shieldgrab or OoS attack. That's why we dance around it or land behind it, ready to spotdodge, shine, or grab. Also our running shield has great sliding properties, and once we running shield grab you, Dthrow or Fthrow puts you guys in a weird position from which Fox can easily follow up. Or of course, we can Bthrow you and camp s'more.

EDIT: Also, how can you garauntee Fox will stay on top of a platform in the first place? All we have to do is drop down and FF AD. While most character's FF AD can be upsmashed out of if they try and drop down. Fox's fast falling helps him as much as it does hurt him.

 

[Zhamy]

Not even talking about gimping options here, since, to be honest, it doesn't matter terribly in the long run (and no, it's not easy to gimp Fox. Ask Boss when he played Rookie.)

Fox wins on the ground due to being able to outcamp and a better boxing game (I'll elaborate if I need to), Mario wins (usually) in the air simply due to mobility and aerials and Bair (along with others, but I hate Bair).

The question is, how does Mario keep Fox in the air? Especially because Mario gets outcamped, Fox seems to dictate the flow of the match. This is just a question, not a challenge.

Also, how can you garauntee Fox will stay on top of a platform in the first place? All we have to do is drop down and FF AD. While most character's FF AD can be upsmashed out of if they try and drop down. Fox's fast falling helps him as much as it does hurt him.

All characters FF at the same speed, but they have different falling speeds.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Wait, are we talking about the same character?

When you do an aerial on someone who is on a platform, you basically have to go back to the ground before you can do another aerial. In that time, your opponent can gtfo easily.

Mario is much floatier and has less ending lag, so when HE pressures you, you have to be cautious that he might do a second aerial before he lands.

Fox only outcamps Mario if the stage is something like FD anyway, and he doesn't have an impressive enough platform pressure game to make up for that on other stages.

I think you're also underestimating Mario's ground options. His Up-B can break "combos", and his F-smash is the ultimate Jab punisher. His Up-B and Up-smash out of shield also are really good for destroying crossups. Mario's Smashes all have pretty decent pushback (particularly D-smash), while Fox's Smashes in comparison are much less safe.

In terms of counterpicks, I do know that Mario wins this matchup solidly on Yoshis. The depression lets Mario duck under lasers. The stage shape is very bad for Fox's sideB recovery.

 

[Lightning93]

When you do an aerial on someone who is on a platform, you basically have to go back to the ground before you can do another aerial. In that time, your opponent can gtfo easily.

Well yeah Mario is floatier, but I've been able to follow up Fair and Upair with another double-jump aerial quite fine. Fox's aerial's also send the opponent much farther, and that gives us more time to get ready to juggle, for if Mario is so floaty, he ain't coming back down before we position ourselves to attack again.

Fox's jab is quick, and can be easily shielded out of. It has really good uses that only Mario's jab could beat if he were to use it first.

 

[Inferno3044]

In every single gimping situation you guys are offering, you didn't say ANYTHING about rising Fair! If spaced properly, we can avoid most spikes and then use shine stalling to catch you guys off guard and make our recovery. Good Foxes don't run into obvious gimps unless they're FORCED too, and Fair makes it so we have time. On the contrary to Mario, who can recover in only one direction. However, I am willing to say the gimping game is closer to equal, because I see it like this:

Mario's Gimping Options = Fox's recovery options
Fox's gimping options > Mario's recovery options (by a little bit, but seriously Dair, shine, Bair, and even Nair can be enough to prevent Mario from reaching the stage)

We are Mario. We aren't going to spike you often. So the whole spike thing doesnt matter. It is possible to cape a fair. Actually shine stalling doesn't always help. It will keep you in place for a bit and leaves you open to a committed attack. Now I guess you can hit us with shine, but I'm not sure how often that'll happen.

Mario's gimping options as greater than Fox's recovery options. You have to remember we also have edgeguarding as well as gimping. As well as cape and FLUDD, we have fireballs, nair (which beats illusion), bair and Uair. We have multiple options to gimp you. It's not gonna happen every stock though. I have no idea what you are talking about saying that you're gimping options are better than our recovery. You have some gimp options but they aren't amazing. I guess shine spiking can work, but not often. Also, Mario's recovery has invincibility frames on the startup. Our edgeguarding is better than yours as well.

I actually played a real good Mario last night, and although Mario has good mid-range camping (Bair, Fireball, Fsmash) his far-range is lacking. Both characters do combo each other well in this MU, and in this regard they are even. People have to also understand though, is that OoS Mario options rarely work on Fox because Fox won't be attacking your shield. In other words, you have to approach. Most of Fox's combos are punished based. And honestly, I think Brawl has been out long enough for Foxes to realize attacking a shield will result in an obvious shieldgrab or OoS attack. That's why we dance around it or land behind it, ready to spotdodge, shine, or grab. Also our running shield has great sliding properties, and once we running shield grab you, Dthrow or Fthrow puts you guys in a weird position from which Fox can easily follow up. Or of course, we can Bthrow you and camp s'more.

As much as I don't like comparing similar characters, I am going to now. You guys are not Falco. I will say right now that your far range camping beats ours but a good amount. What you don't have that Falco does is a projectile that stuns the opponent. Although it means that we might not know how much damage we have taken, you can't keep us out of mid range to camp. Also a fireball will halt your lasers for a bit giving us time to approach (although that's more of an approach).

How can you say Fox won't be attacking our shield? I doubt you can say you have played a match where you didn't hit your opponent's shield, assuming the opponent is good. Also with you saying your combos are punish based, you gave a weakness. Fox is bad at approaching, which you might have to do depending on the situation (don't say that'll never happen). I think we all know that hitting a shield is bad, it'll happen. Plus landing behind us makes it so we can use SH bair OOS. I hate when people say "*insert action here* won't happen" because it will, especially if the action is not hitting a shield.

 

[Lightning93]

Fox should not be hitting shields too often (see what I did there?) because he doesn't have to approach. Fox's speed is enough to maintain a distance between him and Mario. When Mario gets closer Fox has a multitude of moves to punish his approaches. I can be more specific but that's the gist.

Fair can be caped, but then that pushes us out of your spike range and we can always Illusion or Firefox back once we create an opening with shine stalling. Shine is a fast move, and doesn't leave Fox open for too long at any given time. Again, I'm gonna say that Mario's gimping options = Fox's recovery options. It may be hard to believe, but what it comes down to is that Mario doesn't have enough time to use his full gimping arsenal by the time we're back on the stage.

Landing behind shield allows us to utilt/spotdodge/shine/grab, and if it's the case that you can only OoS smash or bair, then that puts us at a mental advantage.

A lot of matchup discussion nowadays consists of convincing people Fox's recovery doesn't suck, that upsmash isn't our only kill move, and that we can actually camp.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fox should not be hitting shields too often (see what I did there?) because he doesn't have to approach. Fox's speed is enough to maintain a distance between him and Mario. When Mario gets closer Fox has a multitude of moves to punish his approaches. I can be more specific but that's the gist.

You have to take a risk to get a kill, which is what matters more. If I just walk up to you and wait, or if I D-air your shield, I'm safe.

Landing behind shield allows us to utilt/spotdodge/shine/grab, and if it's the case that you can only OoS smash or bair, then that puts us at a mental advantage.

Mario can Up-B, Up-smash, B-air, or N-air out of shield, and considering how lightweight Fox is, those options will eventually kill him.

 

[Lightning93]

^ Omg we played last night. I'm LI-93, and you're A2Z I'm assuming. How's Tony?

And yeah of course something is gonna kill Fox, I'm mostly arguing for why it's even. If you just walk up to me I'll most likely spam laser.

 

[Darthlegolas]

if u wanna say the laser thing i mean we can actually cape it constantly and we will take damage but u will take more damage then us
and i dont think its even i say 55:45 Mario
again ur 2 recoveries are hella capeable or fluddable and if ur knocked anywhere too far from stage u can wasily just grab ledge jump off bair or cape stall on ledge and ur UpB will just fall it has a horrible angle

 

[Lightning93]

if u wanna say the laser thing i mean we can actually cape it constantly and we will take damage but u will take more damage then us
and i dont think its even i say 55:45 Mario
again ur 2 recoveries are hella capeable or fluddable and if ur knocked anywhere too far from stage u can wasily just grab ledge jump off bair or cape stall on ledge and ur UpB will just fall it has a horrible angle

Rising Fair, please, don't underestimate it. And I'm pretty sure any good Mario won't spam cape... considering we can just approach with running shield grab afterward.

 

[Inferno3044]

Fox should not be hitting shields too often (see what I did there?) because he doesn't have to approach. Fox's speed is enough to maintain a distance between him and Mario. When Mario gets closer Fox has a multitude of moves to punish his approaches. I can be more specific but that's the gist.

Now I'm starting to agree a bit. But he only doesn't have to approach while he's in the lead or at the beginning. Eventually, he will have to and get punished for his unsafe approaches. I agree on most of this.

Fair can be caped, but then that pushes us out of your spike range and we can always Illusion or Firefox back once we create an opening with shine stalling. Shine is a fast move, and doesn't leave Fox open for too long at any given time. Again, I'm gonna say that Mario's gimping options = Fox's recovery options. It may be hard to believe, but what it comes down to is that Mario doesn't have enough time to use his full gimping arsenal by the time we're back on the stage.

What are you talking about with spike range? Mario doesn't spike normally. Also, we know we won't gimp you every time youre offstage. If we could, I think Mario would be high tier at least. I sometimes think that other people don't know we know that. Easy means a couple times a set is definitely feasible. Shine will help you, but I'm saying there is some opening if we can get there quick enough.

Landing behind shield allows us to utilt/spotdodge/shine/grab, and if it's the case that you can only OoS smash or bair, then that puts us at a mental advantage.

A lot of matchup discussion nowadays consists of convincing people Fox's recovery doesn't suck, that upsmash isn't our only kill move, and that we can actually camp.

I agree with the point that it will limit our options, but while you are in midair, we can do something.

Honestly, you are underestimating Mario's recovery. It's about as good as Marth's but with a little less vertical height and a little more horizontal movement.

Fox's recovery isn't good relatively to other characters, but it's not that bad. It's gimpable, but it's not saying "kill me now". Usmash is by far your best kill move. Your other smashes have decent kill power. They aren't amazing, but they can kill.

 

[Lightning93]

Spike range, cape, FLUDD, it's all the same to me. My point is we can get out of your overall gimping range, stay there for a while, and come back on stage when ready.

And oh no I agree Mario has a good recovery range, but in terms of its predictability and variety, it's very predictable, especially if you're below the stage.

 

[:mad:]

I think Mario has just enough mixups offstage to prevent a gimp. If anything, Mario should be getting gimped once a set. He can toss fireballs when recovering, capestall, DJ -> Aerial, DI low, reverse cape -> bair for protection. There's no reason he should be edgehogged because can still cape before SJPing.

Looking at each characters gimping tools, I can't see Fox having the edgeguarding advantage.

 

[Lightning93]

Looking at each characters gimping tools, I can't see Fox having the edgeguarding advantage.

That's understandable, I would say 50:50 for the MU in general.

 

[:mad:]

50:50 at best, Fox has the advantage here. At least, that's how I see it.

 

[Lightning93]

Eh, if you can convince them that'd be great with me, but otherwise I would be okay with 50:50. It doesn't really hurt us anyways. I like matchup discussion for the general ideas and ratios, what to do, what's good and bad, and why. The numbers are fine as long as they're 5 points more or less.

 

[Matador]

Spike range, cape, FLUDD, it's all the same to me. My point is we can get out of your overall gimping range, stay there for a while, and come back on stage when ready.

Stay out there and do what? You wait, we wait...that's a pretty obvious counteraction. Simply put:

Cape beats Fair in range/priority, though not very practical. Fludd > Illusion + Firefox. Nair > Illusion + Firefox. If you're too close when doing the rising Fair, you're vulnerable to Bair stagespike. If you're too far when doing the rising Fair, we wait for it to end, then Fludd/Nair you afterward when you're ready to Illusion/Firefox.

Of course, there are timing issues, and if you Fair at the right distance, you're pretty safe from being edgeguarded. However, Mario's sheer number of viable options vs Fox's recovery makes this is problem whenever Fox is caught offstage.

Fox's best tool for edgeguarding Mario is his downB, mainly because it beats our upB completely, resulting in a successful gimp if he has no DJ. Everything else Fox has offstage CAN work, but is also risky to him because of his linear recovery and Mario's options while recovering.

If you mistime the shine, you'll be stagespiked by our upB.

If you're caught by a fireball on your way out to Bair us, you're underneath the stage. Needless to say...you're in a dangerous position.

If we catch you with our capestall and you miss your Dair, you're underneath the stage.

If Mario has a full Fludd when knocked offstage, Fox is light enough to simply Fludd while recovering to keep him from running offstage to edgeguard and completely negate all of this.

Mario > Fox offstage. I should've played Rookie at BTYF...

 

[Lightning93]

^ Um, yeah, sure, but that's assuming you have the time to set this all up.

 

[Matador]

^ Um, yeah, sure, but that's assuming you have the time to set this all up.

????

Dsmash/Fthrow/Bthrow/SHNair/SHBair -> run to the ledge. That's all it takes.

From what most of the Foxes (and some of the Marios) have been saying, it's going to be a campfest anyways, so Fludd will be charged. There's no "set this all up". There's just getting you offstage, and having Fludd charged.

 

[Lightning93]

Well, there's running to the edge of the stage and jumping/running off, and by then we'll be in a different position then what you were expecting, possibly even grabbing the ledge. Mario has to be able to get Fox offstage close to the ledge first. And it's all so situational that it doesn't really play a big part in the MU.

 

[vato_break]

Lightning93 what mario's have you played? you said you played a "good" mario, who was this?

 

[Matador]

Well, there's running to the edge of the stage and jumping/running off, and by then we'll be in a different position then what you were expecting, possibly even grabbing the ledge. Mario has to be able to get Fox offstage close to the ledge first. And it's all so situational that it doesn't really play a big part in the MU.

Hmm...

I think I'm finished.

 

[Lightning93]

I actually played A2ZOMG, I believe he has a great Mario from what I've seen. But then again I don't know if you guys would consider him to be. We were pretty even despite wi-fi.

 

[A2ZOMG]

WHUT?! DAAAAAAMN! That was you along with Max?

GOOD **** MAN!

TonyGuacamole forced me to use Mario against you. Even though I said I would be dropping him temporarily. XD

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

A2, why you gonna drop Mario?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Supposedly, I already announced I would be temporarily dropping Mario because I needed a break from using such a mentally taxing character.

Last time I played TonyGuacamole, I was playing HORRIBLY. Basically, I was using none of Mario's advantages, and getting extremely impatient. I was burnt out.

Seriously, Mario is one of the hardest characters to bring to his top level. You have to be constantly alert and thinking to use his options correctly.

I believe my time will be better spent learning new characters, and refreshening my ability to adapt to new situations. I will return to maining Mario once I regain my confidence.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Hmm.. well, Ok, GL on learning about more characters.

 

[Lightning93]

A2Z, I used to play Tony all the time with Fox. He mains Shiek, LOL. But yeah, he knows how to get at your weaknesses, although he doesn't ever place to well at tourneys...

Anyways back on topic I guess, any last words?

 

[hippiedude92]

I like Rookie's Fox. Pretty legit and makes you think twice before you think about fox being a ********.

fox's pivot grab is amazinggggggg

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Fox's pivot grab is totally legit.

 

[Shahryar2010]

Ok can we decide the raito now?

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

It's 50/50 to me.

 

[Shahryar2010]

Im going with 55/45 Mario

 

[Darthlegolas]

55:45 Its a me Mario