The Cloud Vs. Sheik Matchup

[Conradical]

So I was playing Cloud on For Glory and I played a couple of Sheiks and I found the matchup to be quite ok for Cloud onstage, I would even go on to say that Cloud beats Sheik onstage/ on the ground. He has much more range than Sheik, which prevents her from coming in with f-airs, and his d-tilt allows him to go under most of her attacks, which makes it easy for him to start combos. Also, at the beginning of the match, if Sheik starts charging needles straight away, Cloud can charge his limit break, as the needles don't go full stage. I have a video here that shows some of these points.

 

[inconspikuous]

even though it's way too early to tell, i had those initial thoughts as well. sheik doesn't seem as 'safe' as she usually does against other characters. dtilt slides under bouncing fish, needles, can anti-air fair, bair, and nair. cloud's aerials are fast and have more disjoint/range than sheik's (AC uair is a crazy frame trap, basically forces an opponent to airdodge into the ground). cloud's utilt will juggle sheik at least 3x at low percents. if it's true, i think cloud might have been created to be a sheik counter (in neutral) -- which would have been brilliant on the part of the devs. but offstage if cloud doesn't have his limit break, he's going to get gimped every time.

 

[Gecko Moria]

It's probably even. While Cloud may beat sheik onstage, like I inconspikuous said. Sheik can easily gimp cloud and don't forget that cloud is a fast faller when his limit break is fully charged. Shiek can combo him even worse than normal under this circumstance and her kill setups will work into higher %'s.

 

[Zalezus]

Regular Cross Slash should hit Shiek right where she wants to be, but I assume you wanted to keep LB for recovery. I think Cloud can be more liberal with his LBs to kill, he has the range to get and stay safe. This matchup isn't so much scary as it is just really fun and movement/punish based. I can dig it

Also, I'm seeing a trend already: saving LB to guarantee a recovery. We can't forget that he can charge it for free and with very low unpunishable lag, shooting for maybe 3 LBs per stock will make Cloud play dynamic, dangerous, and highly unpredictable. First hit of Cross Slash anywhere above the ledge will get you back all the way from the blast zone and Cloud's second jump is super decent; he can get back, just not from a silly "I got thrown off the ledge" situation.

 

[Zalezus]

It's probably even. While Cloud may beat sheik onstage, like I inconspikuous said. Sheik can easily gimp cloud and don't forget that cloud is a fast faller when his limit break is fully charged. Shiek can combo him even worse than normal under this circumstance and her kill setups will work into higher %'s.

Probably another reason I personally won't want to hold onto LB too long. Being more floaty as an advantage? Who would've thought haha

 

[Kurodyne]

that Sheik had no idea what they're doing

needles don't reach that far and up throw.. up throw? fsmash? dtilt into.. nair? bouncing fish when you're right next to her? DAIR? why did she roll when she had a free grab?

i'm almost vomiting

 

[Scarlet Jile]

There's no way it's going to be even. The on-stage vs. off-stage comparison isn't necessarily an equivalence, since stocks end a lot faster off-stage than on-stage, and losing stocks, in case y'all forgot, is how you lose the game.

That said, it doesn't feel like the totally lost cause that a lot of other characters are vs. Sheik.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Honestly just play him like Fox when you're recovering and your safe, save your jump as a last resort unless you have limit break, then try to make it back using your jump instead of climhazzard. He's pretty heavy (17th heaviest), has great anti air tools, good mobility options. good damage racking ability, and amazing kill power so he can be played like a fortress if needed or he can be played aggro if needed.

 

[HFlash]

Honestly just play him like Fox when you're recovering and your safe

Fox's recovery is alot better than Cloud's. He has two recoveries (side b and up b) which also auto snap onto the ledge. At a competitive level, the best way to recovery is probably going to be using your double jump to mix up the timing of when you use recover with upB. There is no way this MU is even but if it's any consolation, this is might be Cloud's one noticeably disadvantageous MU. (Maybe Pika, and MK as well, pretty much anyone that can edge guard him well.)

 

[Emblem Lord]

No I agree with TC. The match feels...good. When I play Ryu I body most Sheiks in NJ. Only False and Avalon can really make me sweat and consistently beat me. But I have to legit try in neutral vs mid level sheiks.

With Cloud its like...oh she sh faired?...SLIDE at that ho!!!

Oh she wants to run away needle? Charge limit all day.

Oh she went low to recover? SH dair at the ledge and spike her when I catch the 2 frame vulnerability.

She can't just swing at him because of the sword.

IDK guys I'm just having to do ALOT less thinking in neutral with him compared to Ryu.

 

[HFlash]

No I agree with TC. The match feels...good. When I play Ryu I body most Sheiks in NJ. Only False and Avalon can really make me sweat and consistently beat me. But I have to legit try in neutral vs mid level sheiks.

With Cloud its like...oh she sh faired?...SLIDE at that ho!!!

Oh she wants to run away needle? Charge limit all day.

Oh she went low to recover? SH dair at the ledge and spike her when I catch the 2 frame vulnerability.

She can't just swing at him because of the sword.

IDK guys I'm just having to do ALOT less thinking in neutral with him compared to Ryu.

Have you found Shiek Fairing/bouncing fishing you off stage to a gimp a significant factor to the MU? If not, what do you do to avoid this situation (except from not using double jump in the neutral much).

 

[Emblem Lord]

I mean thats her offstage BnB. Yes its a factor. If you are fast enough you can ALWAYS react to the sound and animation of Bouncing Fish. Fair to fish is not a combo. Its a strong set-up. If you have limit you are fine. If you don't and you have your second jump you are probably still fine. Honestly getting gimped far out isnt even the optimal way to kill cloud off-stage. Getting slapped out of Climhazard is way easier and very effective.

But not getting grabbed or faired helps. Stay loose, mind your spacing, and be able to twitch react to her SHing at you or dashing at you. SH = d-tilt. Dash at you = SH nair or pivot grab/tilt/cross slash.

When she is in your space roll or spot dodge. Generally you do not want to challenge her. Her frame data is superior to yours.

 

[HFlash]

Thanks for the tips! Your post should be archived for whenever the dedicated thread for Clouds MUs opens. I imagine Cloud's job in this MU is to react. Maybe force approach by charging LB and punishing any little opening with a quick move (like dtilt)? I'd also avoid double jumping in the neutral as that's an easy way to lose a stock at 40%.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Fox's recovery is alot better than Cloud's. He has two recoveries (side b and up b) which also auto snap onto the ledge. At a competitive level, the best way to recovery is probably going to be using your double jump to mix up the timing of when you use recover with upB. There is no way this MU is even but if it's any consolation, this is might be Cloud's one noticeably disadvantageous MU. (Maybe Pika, and MK as well, pretty much anyone that can edge guard him well.)

I would only ever use my second jump in a mixup for my recovery, if they hit you and you have no jump you're pretty much screwed. Fox has the same deal but to a much lesser extent because both his recovery moves autosnap and cover more horizontal/vertical distance but if you get him far enough for his phantasm to not ledge snap hes super easy to edge guard, that's why you would save your jump until later. He losses a few matchups just because his climhazzard doesn't autosnap, that's why you don't play unsafe and go off stage, you're not Pikachu. Anyways, Pikachu in theory will be his worst matchup imo, quick attack will just mess up everything he has going for him

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I would only ever use my second jump in a mixup for my recovery, if they hit you and you have no jump you're pretty much screwed. Fox has the same deal but to a much lesser extent because both his recovery moves autosnap and cover more horizontal/vertical distance but if you get him far enough for his phantasm to not ledge snap hes super easy to edge guard, that's why you would save your jump until later. Characters who can edge guard him well beats him because his climhazzard doesn't autosnap, that's why you don't play unsafe and go off stage, you're not Pikachu. Anyways, Pikachu in theory will be his worst matchup imo, quick attack will just mess up everything he has going for him

 

[Emblem Lord]

When you see Pika do a QA, do a SH Uair or Dair.

Make the rat regret his decision.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

When you see Pika do a QA, do a SH Uair or Dair.

Make the rat regret his decision.

Damn haven't heard someone call him the rat since I played n64

 

[FallofBrawl]

I think clouds side b can beat out all of sheiks short hop jerkiness, as well as when she wants to recover just above the ledge (should have enough range and his fast enough to catch her before intangibility sets in) you have like a 9 frame window I believe. Dtilt is also a good punish tool when she needles at midrange, and an avoidance/advancing tool when she needle camps. Charging limit also forces her out of camp too like EmblemLord said. What is blade beams interaction with needles?

 

[Conradical]

I think clouds side b can beat out all of sheiks short hop jerkiness, as well as when she wants to recover just above the ledge (should have enough range and his fast enough to catch her before intangibility sets in) you have like a 9 frame window I believe. Dtilt is also a good punish tool when she needles at midrange, and an avoidance/advancing tool when she needle camps. Charging limit also forces her out of camp too like EmblemLord said. What is blade beams interaction with needles?

I'm not sure as I haven't tested it, but if I recall correctly, the blade beam beats the needles. Again, I'm not too sure so take that with a grain of salt.

 

[Jrzfine]

I'm not sure as I haven't tested it, but if I recall correctly, the blade beam beats the needles. Again, I'm not too sure so take that with a grain of salt.

Blade beam and needles ignore each other which means you're gonna be trading with sheik.

 

[Conradical]

Blade beam and needles ignore each other which means you're gonna be trading with sheik.

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[HFlash]

I would only ever use my second jump in a mixup for my recovery, if they hit you and you have no jump you're pretty much screwed. Fox has the same deal but to a much lesser extent because both his recovery moves autosnap and cover more horizontal/vertical distance but if you get him far enough for his phantasm to not ledge snap hes super easy to edge guard, that's why you would save your jump until later. He losses a few matchups just because his climhazzard doesn't autosnap, that's why you don't play unsafe and go off stage, you're not Pikachu. Anyways, Pikachu in theory will be his worst matchup imo, quick attack will just mess up everything he has going for him

Exactly, don't use your DJ in the neutral much because one hit off stage without it, and die at 40%.

When you see Pika do a QA, do a SH Uair or Dair.

Make the rat regret his decision.

Yep, lingering hitboxes (like good nairs) can stuff Pika's QA.

I'm not sure as I haven't tested it, but if I recall correctly, the blade beam beats the needles. Again, I'm not too sure so take that with a grain of salt.

Look up Izaw's Cloud guide. It has all of the beam projectile interactions in the game.

 

[Gemba Board]

So I like the interaction cloud has against needles. If sheik runs to charge needles, you could charge LB for free and not have to worry too much about getting them thrown at you since they would only boost LB. The sheik has to think about that every time she throws needles.

 

[HoSmash4]

So a Day 6 Cloud beat Cacogen one of the top 5 sheiks. And there werent any cheese kills. It was Nicko as well, so not someone above Cacogen's level anyways.

Good matchup or nah?

 

[Conradical]

So a Day 6 Cloud beat Cacogen one of the top 5 sheiks. And there werent any cheese kills. It was Nicko as well, so not someone above Cacogen's level anyways.

Good matchup or nah?

I feel like this really supports the idea of Cloud having a good matchup with Sheik. Maybe it's the limit up-b that really makes the difference, so maybe saving your limit for recovery in this matchup is essential?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sheik just struggles to force Cloud to do stuff he doesnt want to do. She combos him hard but she has to get close to do that and a mistake on her part means she eats an utilt combo from Cloud which hurts. If Cloud has limit she is not coming back on the stage. Thats unheard of for Sheik. A character that doesnt give a damn about her recovery? I think for a Sheik player thats probably very scary.

 

[Chiroz]

So a Day 6 Cloud beat Cacogen one of the top 5 sheiks. And there werent any cheese kills. It was Nicko as well, so not someone above Cacogen's level anyways.

Good matchup or nah?

Cacogen would have won that last match though, Nicko wouldn't have made it back and he gave Nicko the Up-B spike by going after him. Also I don't believe Up-B actually kills (at least not from that height), it just places you very low. I've spiked Sheiks very close to the blastline before and had them return to the stage. While Cacogen I think had no double jump, I think he could have Up-Bed and survived a tad longer.

Basically I think there was vast MU knowledge missing from Cacogen. And Cloud isn't exactly the hardest char to pick up and play, specially for someone who mains swords chars and who'se a ****ing god at juggling.


But I also agree that Cloud doesn't exactly struggle against Sheik like so many chars do.

 

[HoSmash4]

Sheik just struggles to force Cloud to do stuff he doesnt want to do. She combos him hard but she has to get close to do that and a mistake on her part means she eats an utilt combo from Cloud which hurts. If Cloud has limit she is not coming back on the stage. Thats unheard of for Sheik. A character that doesnt give a damn about her recovery? I think for a Sheik player thats probably very scary.

I'm guessing you mean using limit side b offstage vs sheik? Yeah as a sheik player I find this matchup... Intensely stressful if I don't get a gimp. It's weird being a sheik that has to be careful when jumping, yet I can't needle camp because of limit breaker. Plus fair despite its rewards isn't that great. Shield pressure can be unsafe with clouds oos up b, crossing shield doesn't work (oos nair/reverse up b)... I'm sorry but this is a matchup where sheik has to think the most because it's a swordsman that out ranges, outcamps, and has more raw power than sheik. This isn't easy for either sides.

 

[Husk94]

sorry but how does limit cloud give sheik problems recovering?

 

[Daisy101]

side edged with limit sideB, it can be a safe move when it come to air.

 

[SInogara]

Cloud limit cancel smash

 

[Chiroz]

Cloud limit cancel smash

Not only is this not the thread for that but there's literally a thread dedicated to the ILBC with videos and frame data just below this one.

Also there's no point in separaring the tech into different attacks. Cloud can cancel into any attack, no need for "Smash" or "Tilt" to be separate techs.

 

[Nayol]

Can anyone link me to the Nicko vs Cacogen match?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

So far I'm honestly thinking the Cloud/Sheik matchup is 50:50. Cloud has an answer to everything Sheik can do, while Sheik has an answer to everything Cloud can do. Sheik has an amazing gimping ability but Cloud has a lot more kill options and setups, especially with finishing touch (if spaced right) covering every ledge getup option but jump. They can both effectively control the pace of the battle without being slowly forced to a disadvantage. But we wont know for sure until we see some actual tournament results now will we?

 

[bc1910]

Sheik just struggles to force Cloud to do stuff he doesnt want to do. She combos him hard but she has to get close to do that and a mistake on her part means she eats an utilt combo from Cloud which hurts. If Cloud has limit she is not coming back on the stage. Thats unheard of for Sheik. A character that doesnt give a damn about her recovery? I think for a Sheik player thats probably very scary.

How would you advise a Cloud to edgeguard a Sheik player?

I know he can cover her low recovery with Dair, but what about her high/mid recovery options? Are you thinking like, beat BF with limit Blade Beam? Saying "she is not coming back on the stage" suggests limit Cloud can cover all her recovery options at once, is this the case?

 

[Emblem Lord]

If you have limit and she HAS to vanish, it's over.

Run off the ledge and throw Limit Beam at the ledge. It will explode and the blades will erupt. The hitboxes will cover the edge for a few seconds and when she goes for it, she will get caught and eat an untechable stage spike. You can do the same with limit cross slash but its a bit harder.

If she comes in high just smack her. She cannot beat him air to air.

 

[RPK]

Sheik just struggles to force Cloud to do stuff he doesnt want to do. She combos him hard but she has to get close to do that and a mistake on her part means she eats an utilt combo from Cloud which hurts. If Cloud has limit she is not coming back on the stage. Thats unheard of for Sheik. A character that doesnt give a damn about her recovery? I think for a Sheik player thats probably very scary.

Please elaborate on what you mean by she is not coming back on the stage. I'm still learning Cloud so I dont know what you mean

EDIT: Nvm, I derped by not reading the entire thread. I like it. Thats a great use of Blade Beam

 

[Thor]

Random stuff that may be relevant to the MU: Based on numbers I have from this [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...ZIiBdGv6xOFk/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=229950128], her ftilt is -15 on shield [-8 after shield drop] and frame 5, while her jab and spotdodge are frame 2 [shield is frame 1]. This means if she doesn't shield or spotdodge, we can Limit Cross Slash her for ftilting our shield [invincibility beats jab], and we can always dtilt it [frame 7] at close range. Because ftilt is slower than jab, if she is repeatedly ftilting your shield, you can Cross Slash OoS to beat it. Climhazzard is frame 7, so frame pefect OoS Climhazzard is frame 8, meaning we can also Climhazzard her for any ftilts on shield (if we have the range, someone might want to test how quickly Climhazzard's hitboxes extend] (I'm also unsure if b-reversing adds any frames of startup, although I don't think it would). Dtilt is -21 on shield [-13 on shield drop], so we can also Cross-Slash, Climhazzard, or even ftilt it [and ftilt, while perhaps Cloud's most average move in terms of function, still has good range and passable KO power near the ledge].

However, more interesting is the fact that ftilt being -15 on shield means it's -11 after jumpsquat [Cloud's is 4 frames]. If I'm doing math right and Cloud doesn't jump too high [he shouldn't, Sheik is tall], in theory you could jump Cross-Slash OoS her for ftilting your shield every time. This of course assumes you time the jump nearly perfectly, but if Cross-Slash reaches Sheik, it's a 19% punish (fresh) for ftilting Cloud's shield a single time. If that's the case, it means that holding shield in limit at high percents vs Sheik is hugely problematic for her... if she's at 80% and we're at 220% in limit [aka when ftilt would almost certainly KO even in limit, but none of her throws do], ftilt kills us, but shielded ftilt kills her. This scenario is admittedly highly unlikely, but it should give you an idea about the power of Cross-Slash OoS, both with dropping shield and jumping, and how much more threatening having limit makes Cloud.

Her fsmash is -18 on shield [-11 after shield drop], so we can drop shield Cross-Slash that too [her other smash attacks are bad enough on shield to Finishing Touch or fsmash].

 

[Meta_X]

If Cloud has limit she is not coming back on the stage. Thats unheard of for Sheik. A character that doesnt give a damn about her recovery? I think for a Sheik player thats probably very scary.

What options do you use to counter Sheik's recovery specifically? All I can think of right now are trying to dair-spike the frame 1 (2?) of the ledge snap, or throwing out a LB Cross Slash to catch the teleport

 

[Emblem Lord]

Those and they work very well.

Also Cloud can straight up challenge BF with a nair or limit Cross Slash.