The Better Lucario Official Guide/Faq/Database (Now with More Lawl!)

[Nodrak]

I'm actually inclined to agree with SSBbo and I have to disagree with Ted. Ike's attacks outrange Lucario. Ike's fsmash will beat out any attack we have except maybe our fsmash which would be about the same distance. Ike is slow, but he has superarmour on at least two of his attacks + a counter which is easier to pull off. Ike's tilts, bair and nair are relativly fast and just as powerful as the average character's smash attack. Ike may be an easier target in the longrun (I still say Lucario has the advantage) but get hit by 3-4 of Ike's attacks and you're already at 90+ damage and flying across the screen. One thing that gives us a huge advantage is our WoP and chaingrab. It's not hard to get Ike to the edge, then just keep booting him in the face with fair until he's too far to recover.

 

[tedward2000]

ok, Well to better strengthen my argument.
A Defensive Lucario will have the upper hand over a Ike, then a offensive one.
If lucario stays away from the barrage of attacks, and utilizes AS and shield grabbing, then the match is in his favor.
But a offensive one is in Ike's territory. And Ike will obliterate lucario with faster tilts and his jab.
-t2

 

[Timbers]

ok, Well to better strengthen my argument.
A Defensive Lucario will have the upper hand over a Ike, then a offensive one.
If lucario stays away from the barrage of attacks, and utilizes AS and shield grabbing, then the match is in his favor.
But a offensive one is in Ike's territory. And Ike will obliterate lucario with faster tilts and his jab.
-t2

Ike's tilts aren't quicker than Lucario's. They're much slower lol. <.< Utilt and ftilt both have killpower though, and have good range on them. I want to say that this is a game where you want to play offense as much as defense, or Ike will set up for a mean spacing game.

 

[tedward2000]

And its ike's massive kill power that makes being defensive the better of choices.
Im not going to argue that Ike has the upperhand over all, because he doesn't. But Ike can kill lucario at 80%. Its his power and range that's the problem. But staying away from him and getting % here and there, and pushing him toward the edge is a better way to handle ike.
then push him off the edge, and explode offensively in the air.
-t2

 

[SSBbo]

I agree with the other side of this argument slightly.

i think it's an epic matchup, but an ike that can alternate from offensive to defensive and vice-versa at the right times, is great against lucario. if the lucario does the same thing, though, it'll take forever.
so are defensive ikes. there's not many of them, but the best ikes are very defensive, and roll and shield just at the right times.

so basically, they both have alot of advantages, i just think ike slightly has the upper hand. it really depends on skill.

 

[Nodrak]

I meant Ike's tilts are faster then some of Lucario's attacks, not Lucario's tilts. Either way, Ike is one of the few characters that can turn a game around with a single fsmash. Either way I don't think the matchup is as easy in practice as it is in theory. I don't actually know any good Ike's so I wouldn't be able to back it up but I know that just a few hits from Ike rack up damage ridiculously fast.

 

[Timbers]

t I know that just a few hits from Ike rack up damage ridiculously fast.

16% jab combo is ********. You have to go for that gimp against Ike at all costs or it's going to be a hellhole.

 

[tedward2000]

I wasn't comparing Lucario's tilts to Ikes tilts.

I know a goodish Ike, he's very repetitive though.
He's the same guy that screwed me over with his pickachu in the tournament.
I'll get you at the next one Mike!!
-t2

 

[SSBbo]

pikachu's one of the only people i can't use, but people can own you so hard with him if you're not careful.

i hate people that are repetitive, they make games last forever. for example: i know a guy that loves (oh crap! here it comes!) sonic. he uses nuetral b over and over. i roll over and over. i beat him in sudden death with aura sphere. repetitive n00bs are the reason brawl tourneys are annoying.

 

[Nodrak]

pikachu's one of the only people i can't use, but people can own you so hard with him if you're not careful.

i hate people that are repetitive, they make games last forever. for example: i know a guy that loves (oh crap! here it comes!) sonic. he uses nuetral b over and over. i roll over and over. i beat him in sudden death with aura sphere. repetitive n00bs are the reason brawl tourneys are annoying.

Just get him under the stage and when he uses his neutralB get him banned for stalling a match =P

 

[Milln]

All matchups are assumed to where both players are masters of their characters and know a great deal about the opponent's character's current gameplay. I thought I was pretty accurate... =\ Maybe not a MUFFIN.. but... you could sip a beverage after you blow Ike away and roll away while you put your container back down. >,>

XD

*ahem* Lucario has speed, Aura Sphere, combos, Fair and Dair Gimps, Aura Sphere, Versatility, and a Counter that KO's against Ike.

Ike has Power, Range, and Super Armor on Lucario.

The best an Ike can do so far is be tricky. As a Lucario(or a pro player), you'd be able to analyze this. Or just Aura Sphere him. He rolled? Dang. Fire another one. Rolled again? He's now in midrange and subject to any of Luca's attacks. HE ROLLED AGAIN? Utilt and he's combo'd for twenty more percent. I don't see what the problem is. There's no setups for an fsmash other than capitalizing on a whiffed attack or bad roll. Usmash, ftilt, a properly timed Eruption, Bair, and Fair are the only threats. Usmash, Eruption, and Fair are telegraphed. Ftilt is and Bair are legitimate threats and hard to predict due to their speed and potential power.

 

[SSBbo]

vid helps alot. it also will help me with ike against lucatio and vice-versa. as a heavy lucario and ike player, i see that alot of the techniques in this video are possible with ike's attacks. for example: you can spam by AA combo, then forepalm grab, you can do the same with ike's combo and then side+b . utilt= ike's upsmash with better speed.

i just prefer strong characters to faster ones (contradictory to how i use to be).
so basically, it depends on the type of player. here's what i'd guess (i don't know for a fact cuz i don't know an offensive lucario, which is weird):

Defensive Ike = Offensive Lucario (forward rolls keep Lucario on his toes in this match, and shield helps ike against aurasphere and forcepalm, not so much forcepalm)
Defensive Ike slightly worse than Defensive Lucario
Offensive Ike < Offensive Lucario (lucario can be relentless)
Balanced Ike > either offensive or defensive lucario
defensive ike > balanced lucario
offensive ike < balanced lucario (only if ike charges just right)
offensive ike < defensive lucario

 

[SSBbo]

also, you are probably one of the best lucarios i've ever seen. my strategy is pretty basic.
it's not specific attacks or combos, it's charging just right, destroying people in the air, coming down on top of people, and counter. now i can control my counter, thanks, now i'll own even harder.

 

[Milln]

What video are you referencing? O,o... Also, thank you for the compliment. <3

 

[Nodrak]

Probably your finals tourny match Milln. =P Also SSBbo, try not to double post, just edit the first first one. But yeah, I'm not saying Ike is that hard, but he's no 100:0 matchup

 

[Milln]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_lJn1f0Egw God tier, go! Explore this, please.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

I saw it first! In your face, Tedward!

*Ahem*

I'm going to go test this now.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_lJn1f0Egw God tier, go! Explore this, please.

I tested this before. sadly, it can be jumped out of. :/

 

[Milln]

I'm not saying use it all the time. =o Put it in the mixups. If they can jump, that's where grab or Force Palm Grab comes in.

Heck, maybe we can lock 'em with AA > AA > AA >AA since the second jab cancels faster.

 

[Timbers]

It's definitely not a lock, but it's applicable. A lot of Ikes that I play enjoy using this. Why only Ike I don't know. Either it's because his jabs are very damaging or they're just fast enough and can be coupled with some good range. ANYWAYS, AA->AAA. Or AA->AA->AAA. It's definitely not a lock, but it can be thrown in sometimes. I'm usually able to SDI away and jump out of it by the second repetition if they don't complete the jab. I haven't played a Lucario who's used this yet, but if it's anything similiar to Ike, then I can relate. <.< It's very nice though. It opens up more options, I had never though of it with Lucario. AA->AA-> ftilt/fair maybe? Or maybe a grab. If they expect the grab and start jabbing you out of your pathetic reach on a running grab, then maybe start throwing in an fsmash. But in short, you probably won't get more than a second repetition off. Which isn't bad. It throws them off the usual 3-hit-jab-combo routine.

I'll start implementing it more.

 

[SSBbo]

Probably your finals tourny match Milln. =P Also SSBbo, try not to double post, just edit the first first one. But yeah, I'm not saying Ike is that hard, but he's no 100:0 matchup

no, i'm not saying that either, i think it's a close match.

also milln, inner fire 10. i'm practicing some of the techniques right now their very helpful. especially Utilt. sadly i don't use tilts alot so the transition is tough.

I notice that spammy kirbys are kinda good against lucario, but after a while you get used to it, and counter alot.
kirby's pretty good in the air, but neutral air gets 'im every time. AA forcepalm takes care of kirby too.

 

[Nodrak]

Any spamming char is predictable and easy to get around. Unless your on wifi, then the button lag and animation lag become too much =S

 

[Nurotasama]

I think all spammy characters are easy to beat.

Campy, however, Wolf on Battlefield is hard to beat since the forsaken platforms ruin many aerials and you can't approach on the ground due to the slow, large blaster shots. Pit is annoying too, but not actually difficult. D3 can also be very good at camping depending on who uses him.

 

[tedward2000]

I think all spammy characters are easy to beat.

Campy, however, Wolf on Battlefield is hard to beat since the forsaken platforms ruin many aerials and you can't approach on the ground due to the slow, large blaster shots. Pit is annoying too, but not actually difficult. D3 can also be very good at camping depending on who uses him.

I second that. Wolf is a pain at Battlefield.
And the Wolf I play against is a spamy one.
One can only imagine the amount of fly green projectiles coming off his gun.
-t2

 

[SSBbo]

I second that. Wolf is a pain at Battlefield.
And the Wolf I play against is a spamy one.
One can only imagine the amount of fly green projectiles coming off his gun.
-t2

the only thing i don't like about lucario is he doen't have much projectiles and no reflector.
but then again, pit, R.O.B., and peach deserve their reflectors. wolf can reflect aura sphere (and forcepalm if you're not careful), he has projectiles, is ok hand-to-hand, and can hit you just right with his side+b if you're on a platform.

 

[tedward2000]

Gah!
Milin, I have that Japanese song stuck in my head!
The one thats playing during your match vs ike at Green greens.
It wont leave!
-t2

Lucario doesn't need a reflector.
He does have a shield, remember?

 

[Jeepy Sol]

So, I was only able to watch about 30 seconds of the video before my computer crapped out on me. But judging from the posts made, is this what you were showing?

Actually, you can cancel the Jab A while its still in it's animation. Just quickly flick down to crouch and you will be able do do his first A in quick succesion. It can also be done with Jab AA. Unfortunately, you cannot trap people in it, and can be easily Smash DI'd out of. But it's still useful. I really don't think I need to make a video of it, but if it is ABSOLUTELY necessary, I will. >.>

If so, is there anything specific you would like me to test? I'd be happy to do any sort of testings...Just not today. I had a rough day at work (petroleum oil, explosions, etc.). I think I'm going to lay low today, but I'm sure I'll feel better tomorrow.

 

[SSBbo]

yeah but people that can projectile spam good from far away, can get you pretty bad.

 

[Nodrak]

yeah but people that can projectile spam good from far away, can get you pretty bad.

Projectiles that are spammed from a distance are extremely predictable. Predictability means you can see it coming and can react accordingly. Jump, crawl (in some cases), roll, SHAD, or reverse double team are all options to get around projectile spam.

 

[SSBbo]

i mean people that can projectile spam well. people that are skilled with it can run up after spamming you, grab you while you're coming out of a roll and go back to spamming.

 

[Nodrak]

Then use double team o.O I also can't see it being that hard to see your opponent running at you, espesially if it's long range. DT is my first choice for projectiles anyway ... except ones i can catch. Poor diddy... thinks he's cool with bananas, and peach... lol all those times a stitch was caught by me =D

 

[Timbers]

i mean people that can projectile spam well. people that are skilled with it can run up after spamming you, grab you while you're coming out of a roll and go back to spamming.

Just play more. It sounds to me you don't know how to deal with projectile spam, and still getting punished for it. It's very easy to get around.

If so, is there anything specific you would like me to test? I'd be happy to do any sort of testings...Just not today. I had a rough day at work (petroleum oil, explosions, etc.). I think I'm going to lay low today, but I'm sure I'll feel better tomorrow.

That's pretty much what it was. I think Milin was wondering if it could lock (and we know it can't), but also wanted us to go out and implement it and couple it with other moves. A>AA>AA>ftilt or fair, or something. Obviously it's not a guaranteed combo, but nothing is in Brawl. just mix it up. If people are expecting AA>FP, then the second repetition of jabs will catch them after the spotdodge. Or running up to grab them, and if they expect the grab they'll start jabbing you out of your puny grab range, so you can try for an fsmash and throw them off. It's all speculation, I'm going to have to start playing with it more.

and where the hell do you work, if I may ask O.o

 

[SSBbo]

I know how to deal with projectile spam, it just makes the game slower and i really don't like being defensive, it's kinda boring.

yeah, you can see 'em coming and you can use doubleteam, but when they're good they'll see doubleteam coming.

 

[Timbers]

I know how to deal with projectile spam, it just makes the game slower and i really don't like being defensive, it's kinda boring.

yeah, you can see 'em coming and you can use doubleteam, but when they're good they'll see doubleteam coming.

Well something like this:

i mean people that can projectile spam well. people that are skilled with it can run up after spamming you, grab you while you're coming out of a roll and go back to spamming.

Unless the Falco you're playing is shdl-happy, they're going to be caught in afterlag from the projectile to actually run up and grab you before an airdodge is over with.

 

[Milln]

Timbers has been saying what I would have been saying if I wasn't at work all day.

I figured it wasn't a lock since the Snake appeared to JUST BARELY get back in neutral position before the next jab came. Your opponent will expect AA> Force Palm Grab and will spot dodge or some crap. If you do a jab, cancel it, then start your junk it'll have a higher probability of connecting because you just threw your opponent off. It's just another crazy mixup option. =3

However, from this, comes another intriguing thing. We've been poking at AA for a long time. A feels like it cancels slower than AA. I wonder if it really does or if it's my imagination. And if it does, let's see if we can get some gauranteed stuff off of it. Jeepy? Where dat Cancellation frame data, plx. I'm anxious for AA QCF+B

---- No prob, SSBo. Any questions you have about anything, ask away.

 

[Timbers]

Timbers has been saying what I would have been saying if I wasn't at work all day.

I figured it wasn't a lock since the Snake appeared to JUST BARELY get back in neutral position before the next jab came. Your opponent will expect AA> Force Palm Grab and will spot dodge or some crap. If you do a jab, cancel it, then start your junk it'll have a higher probability of connecting because you just threw your opponent off. It's just another crazy mixup option. =3

However, from this, comes another intriguing thing. We've been poking at AA for a long time. A feels like it cancels slower than AA. I wonder if it really does or if it's my imagination. And if it does, let's see if we can get some gauranteed stuff off of it. Jeepy? Where dat Cancellation frame data, plx. I'm anxious for AA QCF+B

I got praised, I feel awesome.

=3

Because I feel like trying to extend this any further than AA>AA (or A>A>AA..or whatever) will be risking too much, I've been ending it after that. I really like the potential that AA>AA>sh fair>nair/dair has. Same with ending it in a grab or ftilt. Fsmash feels too laggy, but it may be a good alternative if they start trying to counter your grabs with a jab combo. I've only been able to play on wifi today, so I can't really say anything until I get some local games up this weekend. Until then it's either wifi or CPUs.

 

[Popertop]

Unless the Falco you're playing is shdl-happy, they're going to be caught in afterlag from the projectile to actually run up and grab you before an airdodge is over with.

This.
Except replace Falco with Samus.

All my opponent did was SH double Zair. the whole time.
I couldn't get in at all. If I tried to double team it, he just didn't zair and hit me in the lag.
Double team has too low of a start up time to reliably do stuff with.
If it started on frame 1 then it would be fine, but it's way later.
I mean, that is the way counter moves are supposed to work.... stupid sakurai....

The biggest deal was every time I got inside I couldn't punish enough to make up for all the frustrating zair damage he dealt me.

I hate samus so much now.

 

[Milln]

You should've Aura Sphered. Or Full Jumped.

I'll update the main guide later.

 

[Timbers]

If it started on frame 1 then it would be fine, but it's way later.
I mean, that is the way counter moves are supposed to work.... stupid sakurai....

Frame 1 woulda been broken, but starting it about the same time that Marth's starts would be fine (I'm not sure on how many startup frames it has <.<) I understand that Marth's counter will rarely/never kill, but the duration his counter lasts is a lot longer than Lucario's.

 

[tedward2000]

Timbers has been saying what I would have been saying if I wasn't at work all day.

I figured it wasn't a lock since the Snake appeared to JUST BARELY get back in neutral position before the next jab came. Your opponent will expect AA> Force Palm Grab and will spot dodge or some crap. If you do a jab, cancel it, then start your junk it'll have a higher probability of connecting because you just threw your opponent off. It's just another crazy mixup option. =3

However, from this, comes another intriguing thing. We've been poking at AA for a long time. A feels like it cancels slower than AA. I wonder if it really does or if it's my imagination. And if it does, let's see if we can get some gauranteed stuff off of it. Jeepy? Where dat Cancellation frame data, plx. I'm anxious for AA QCF+B

---- No prob, SSBo. Any questions you have about anything, ask away.

A cancel does cancel slower, I told you that last night.
But sense Jeepy is working on some legitimate numbers, my say means nothing.
And Im no where from a wii, I cannot test it either.
-t2