"The Act of Balancing” Sakurai Famitsu Column Translation

[ssbMars]

snip
accidental post

 

[ChikoLad]

I respect this guy alot, but he's also running a youtube channel with over a hundred thousand subscribers and Smash is an entertaining game to watch. Do you think he cares if Diddy Kong is nerfed? I don't think so. I also have a few friends that play casually, and both of them barely play. Brawl was entirely dedicated to casuals, and Sm4sh is mostly dedicated towards them too. Balance patches should be more for the competitive crowd and less for the casuals.

Actually he does care that Diddy was nerfed, and he has his own opinions on things he thinks are OP.

 

[Gawain]

He's right you know. They are balancing the game for their primary audience, who is likely playing FFA or teams, with lots of characters on screen, not mostly 1v1. The point is that they're at least trying to cater to the 1v1 crowd too this time around. That is blatantly obvious. People need to stop acting like Sakurai just hates the competitive players. It's ridiculous and libelous to be honest.

 

[Staticky]

Actually he does care that Diddy was nerfed, and he has his own opinions on things he thinks are OP.

But it really doesn't effect the way he plays the game...a little change to the casuals can be a big change to the competitive players

 

[ChikoLad]

But it really doesn't effect the way he plays the game...a little change to the casuals can be a big change to the competitive players

The reverse is equally true.

Also Diddy's nerf was a big change for everyone really. It killed the Diddy bandwagon, now only people who are good with him or like the character a lot in other games play as him.

 

[Enderwoman]

Furthermore, if I went with what is fair according to advanced players, the beginners wouldn’t be able to keep up. For example, Kirby’s Stone attack probably won’t hit a player above intermediate skill level, but if I made it more powerful, it would destroy beginners.

maybe sakurai should stop making attacks that only bad players can get hit by

 

[Dustydog96]

It might not have technically been a launch title but if you've played the game you noticed how recycled it was just like all the other games you mentioned. They're putting minimal effort into the franchise knowing that they can make money off nostalgia and name recognition. The franchise is far from being revived. If anything the franchise is zombie-like: dead but continuing to make money.

that makes no sense dude. Your statement implies that all launch titles are "recycled" feeling. And I don't think they're making money off nostalgia alone. They're making just as much "nostalgia" money off of Donkey Kong as they are any other series in Nintendo's roster. All of their series have some music recycled in one way or another. If they were making nostalgia money alone, DK Tropical freeze would've been a lot more similar to the original games, which it really isn't at all. Not going to waste time on your reply because there's so much nonsensical shenanigans I don't feel like wasting time.

 

[Fenriraga]

At the end of the day, I’m aiming for intermediately-skilled players to be able to properly enjoy the game.Fundamentally, my goal with Smash has been to create an “enjoyable party game”. If you want to enjoy thrilling tactical gameplay, you might be better suited for other 2D fighting games.

This is literally the ONLY thing he said that bothers me to no end. Christ he is stubborn. It's fine that he doesn't prefer his game to be seen as competitive, but I'm so sick of him literally alienating a large chunk of his fanbase because he doesn't like how they play his game.
I LOVE Smash's Technical side. Because it's DIFFERENT from how other 2D fighters handle it.

 

[Gawain]

maybe sakurai should stop making attacks that only bad players can get hit by

Kirby's stone hits players in tournament matches every now and then. It has uses. Mostly edge guarding but it has uses.

 

[Staticky]

The reverse is equally true.

Also Diddy's nerf was a big change for everyone really. It killed the Diddy bandwagon, now only people who are good with him or like the character a lot in other games play as him.

The reverse is not true. Name an example and I'll believe you. When I used to play casually I would think some things are OP when they really weren't. Character nerfs would not be noticeable, only slightly.

 

[Yong Dekonk]

Actually, it's the complete opposite - Retro put a lot of love into the games, but they don't sell all that well. Tropical Freeze had lukewarm sales.

In terms of general attention though, DK has had it better than in years. They even brought him back into Mario Party as a playable character, which a lot of people got excited over.

Oh yes, a recycled Wii game and *Gasp* he's inario party again. They must really care about this character. Tropical Freeze is not the type of game that people get excited about at E3 it's not the type of game that sells consoles. It's filler. Easy money. Have you even played it? Have you seen what Nintendo has done with franchises it actually cares about? How many games did metroid get on Wii and 3ds? Zelda? Mario? Now compare that to DK.

 

[Gawain]

This is literally the ONLY thing he said that bothers me to no end. Christ he is stubborn. It's fine that he doesn't prefer his game to be seen as competitive, but I'm so sick of him literally alienating a large chunk of his fanbase because he doesn't like how they play his game.
ugh.

I think you are misunderstanding him. He's just advocating for traditional fighters as a superior platform (arguable point). Traditional fighters are, from a design point, MUCH more structured. When things happen in games like Guilty Gear there is almost always a rigid structure that makes it work. It's actually pretty impressive from a programming standpoint. Fighting games are some of the most well-written video game programs out there. It's very encapsulated and controlled.

In Smash there are a lot more variables. You've got multiple jump heights and multiple jumps on every character, not many moves link into each other and you can't cancel animations with other attacks to alleviate the problem. There are platforms, meaning that players are often on uneven lateral ground, which opens up a whole can of worms when it comes to variance.

When you play a game where the variables are a little more defined, it really hones down on character skill, and there is little room for debate when someone loses. Sometimes that isn't the case in Smash (DK custom wind randomly throwing people straight down unintentionally, battlefield ledge and platform shenanigans, etc). All he's saying is that the people looking for a totally skill-based fighter are probably going to be better serviced by a game that has more rigid rules and fewer exploits/issues.

I swear, some people in the Smash community have way too thin skin. He's not personally attacking us folks.

 

[Ura]

I wouldn't mind another melee, to be honest. Not that I dislike super sm4sh brothers roll.

Bottom line is there doesn't have to be another Melee game. Smash Bros is fine just the way it is contrary to what people say.

 

[ChikoLad]

Kirby's stone hits players in tournament matches every now and then. It has uses. Mostly edge guarding but it has uses.

Not to mention the custom one that buries opponents on the ground and meteors them in the air is actually a very good move in general.

The reverse is not true. Name an example and I'll believe you. When I used to play casually I would think some things are OP when they really weren't. Character nerfs would not be noticeable, only slightly.

A lot of casuals hated Rosalina at launch (some still do), mainly because Rosalina herself was TOO strong, and Luma respawned too quickly. There wasn't enough incentive to actually get good with Luma. Even I'll admit her balance was flawed then (she's an overall BETTER character now at least in co-operation with Luma, but more difficult to use). This was something that Sakurai patched in time for the Wii U version's release.

Most people have calmed down about her now though. They realise Luma takes longer to respawn now, and that Rosalina's N-air has less range than before. Oh, and they realise Luma can't attack while Rosalina is being thrown anymore.

 

[isaiah :)]

i think if he nerf's roll and spot dodge time the game will be less BS

 

[Gawain]

Oh yes, a recycled Wii game and *Gasp* he's inario party again. They must really care about this character. Tropical Freeze is not the type of game that people get excited about at E3 it's not the type of game that sells consoles. It's filler. Easy money. Have you even played it? Have you seen what Nintendo has done with franchises it actually cares about? How many games did metroid get on Wii and 3ds? Zelda? Mario? Now compare that to DK.

You never played Tropical Freeze then. And lol that you think Metroid has any games on 3DS. You should probably think before you talk bud.

 

[Gawain]

Most people have calmed down about her now though. They realise Luma takes longer to respawn now, and that Rosalina's N-air has less range than before. Oh, and they realise Luma can't attack while Rosalina is being thrown anymore.

Okay bro. Small issue here. Rosalina was BARELY nerfed. She's still easily the most frustrating character in the entire game to play against. I'd rather play Sheik vs Falcon than Rosalina vs Falcon. Rosalina's nerfs were inconsequential; she's still solidly tying for top position. She still completely shuts down a good portion of the cast.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Just accept the game how it is, Adapt , Don't over commit simple as that . IF you don't like how the game is then just don't play it at all if your gonna complain about balances , There's a strength and a weakness to every character , but it all depends on the player not the character. If you don't like it dont play it at all , no one is forcing you to play smash.

This is exactly why I wish several games would stop making patch releases and let games develop as they did with Melee and Smash64 and brawl.

 

[SoniCraft]

I think you are misunderstanding him. He's just advocating for traditional fighters as a superior platform (arguable point). Traditional fighters are, from a design point, MUCH more structured. When things happen in games like Guilty Gear there is almost always a rigid structure that makes it work. It's actually pretty impressive from a programming standpoint. Fighting games are some of the most well-written video game programs out there. It's very encapsulated and controlled.

In Smash there are a lot more variables. You've got multiple jump heights and multiple jumps on every character, not many moves link into each other and you can't cancel animations with other attacks to alleviate the problem. There are platforms, meaning that players are often on uneven lateral ground, which opens up a whole can of worms when it comes to variance.

When you play a game where the variables are a little more defined, it really hones down on character skill, and there is little room for debate when someone loses. Sometimes that isn't the case in Smash (DK custom wind randomly throwing people straight down unintentionally, battlefield ledge and platform shenanigans, etc). All he's saying is that the people looking for a totally skill-based fighter are probably going to be better serviced by a game that has more rigid rules and fewer exploits/issues.

I swear, some people in the Smash community have way too thin skin. He's not personally attacking us folks.

Well there's a reason we're into competitive smash in the first place. I think we all like those variables. It makes the game feel more free and fun. Melee has those variables you mentioned in your second paragraph, except for the part about not many moves linking into each other. It's still a fine competitive game. I'm not saying Smash 4 should be Melee 2(I really don't want that), and I'm not really responding to this to argue about that topic anyway. Anyways, I think we know he's not attacking us, but it's like he's forgotten that he accidentally hit the nail on the head with Melee. I don't see why he can't do it again(in a more Smash 4-esque engine. Idk maybe I'm asking the impossible here, but if I know anybody who could do it, it'd be Sakurai).

 

[ChikoLad]

Okay bro. Small issue here. Rosalina was BARELY nerfed. She's still easily the most frustrating character in the entire game to play against. I'd rather play Sheik vs Falcon than Rosalina vs Falcon. Rosalina's nerfs were inconsequential; she's still solidly tying for top position. She still completely shuts down a good portion of the cast.

But before the patch, she was way too easy to use. The patch changed it so that she's actually BETTER as they made more stuff possible with Luma interplay, but her skill floor became much higher. Most people just had a problem with her being easy to use, not with her being a potent character.

Other characters do need to be buffed though.

 

[Champ Gold]

Okay bro. Small issue here. Rosalina was BARELY nerfed. She's still easily the most frustrating character in the entire game to play against. I'd rather play Sheik vs Falcon than Rosalina vs Falcon. Rosalina's nerfs were inconsequential; she's still solidly tying for top position. She still completely shuts down a good portion of the cast.

Not like it matters considering she gets shut down by much more faster and agile characters like Sheik, Sonic, Diddy, Yoshi and even Falcon/ZSS. Fox and Shulk would be better but Shulk has lag upon lag and Fox doesn't have a lot of approaching options against her.

I still consider Sheik and Sonic the best especially the latter considering his meta still hasn't been figured out

 

[Gawain]

Well there's a reason we're into competitive smash in the first place. I think we all like those variables. It makes the game feel more free and fun. Melee has those variables you mentioned in your second paragraph, except for the part about not many moves linking into each other. It's still a fine competitive game. I'm not saying Smash 4 should be Melee 2(I really don't want that), and I'm not really responding to this to argue about that topic anyway. Anyways, I think we know he's not attacking us, but it's like he's forgotten that he accidentally hit the nail on the head with Melee. I don't see why he can't do it again(in a more Smash 4-esque engine. Idk maybe I'm asking the impossible here, but if I know anybody who could do it, it'd be Sakurai).

Don't get me wrong, I like Smash too. I think it's a good competitive game. But I do recognize that he has a point, as far as objectivity goes. And the guy I was quoting pretty obviously was taking that as Sakurai taking a dump on the competitive community.

 

[ChikoLad]

Not like it matters considering she gets shut down by much more faster and agile characters like Sheik, Sonic, Diddy, Yoshi and even Falcon/ZSS. Fox and Shulk would be better but Shulk has lag upon lag and Fox doesn't have a lot of approaching options against her.

I still consider Sheik and Sonic the best especially the latter considering his meta still hasn't been figured out

Rosalina doesn't get shut down by any of those characters. At all. Has a clear advantage against a few of them actually. Even ZeRo has pointed this out.

 

[SoniCraft]

Results aren't the end-all, be-all of what defines what a character is. Don't you know that tier lists don't even use results as the sole factor in their formation? Character potential is another big one. And there is a lot of untapped potential in Rosalina on Dabuz's part at the VERY least, and in many other players/characters. Stop talking as if the meta is static.

That second paragraph just tells me you don't know how to play the character, at all.



I never said he can't be used as a reference at all. The problem lies in using him as the end-all, be-all reference. Since he only uses one particular playstyle for Rosalina rather than mastering all of them to play her as a paradigm shifter, he inherently limits himself, especially when other players with other playstyles (falln plays a very aggressive Rosalina for example, and AceStarthe3rd plays a very balanced, all-round Rosalina) have proven other playstyles to be valid and fill in gaps in Dabuz's playstyle - ergo, the OPTIMAL way to play Rosalina is as a paradigm shifter, by switching up your playstyle for Rosalina AND Luma according to the situation. Essentially, it's OK to use him as a reference to a point, or if you PERSONALLY only want to play Rosalina defensively, but exclusively focusing on Dabuz as a reference for "how Rosalina plays" does not teach you how to play as Rosalina, it teaches you how to be play as Dabuz. Same goes with any other top player. You have to observe a variety of them, and try to innovate your own playstyle elements too.

For one example of a flaw in Dabuz's playstyle, he RARELY sends Luma out (which is likely a side effect of him not understanding Luma's untethered controls fully - a lot of players don't). Another example, he never really attacks unless he's sure Rosalina can come out unscathed. I have a video example of myself benefiting from sending my Luma out and INTENTIONALY letting Rosalina get hit (as there are benefits to it, such as letting Luma get in easy punishes that can KO or lead to one, or starting the "Luma Spin" technique, which can only be started while Rosalina is in hit stun).

I don't play in tournaments, but I have had sessions with tournament players in my country, and have been recommended to compete in various tournaments, including Celtic Throwdown, which is the biggest Irish gaming tournament that even has Nintendo as a sponsor. I hope to compete in it and a few other tournaments here, but unfortunately my life situation cannot accommodate this for now (and I know many other talented players suffer from this restriction). I also tend to get friend requests from For Glory players (talented ones) after having really nice sessions with them. I've also had people come to me for advice on Rosalina an awful lot, or request to spar with me. I may not be the best player in the world yet, but I am confident I have an expansive knowledge on the character and feel I have been pushing her forward and I have discovered things before others.

As far as European characters go, I believe Bowser, Fox, and R.O.B are of the more popular variety here compared to the US (all characters with playstyles that vary between them), off the top of my head. You can always just go look up a variety of tournaments statistics yourself, though, if you really are curious.

Thank you for your answers to my questions. I believe you to be an experienced Rosalina main who knows a lot about the character. To wrap this thing up, I'll just say I think Dabuz will do just fine in the long run. He'll improve on his own terms, and continue to contend with the best of the best. I don't think he has to play the way you describe as "optimal". Like you said about your region, all the characters you listed have players with different playstyles, and that's completely fine. The thing for me is, and I mean no offense to you, but Dabuz has had many very high placings at tournaments with a large amount of talent, and all I've seen of you so far is a match against a FG Marth. I can't say you're bad, but I can't TRULY say you're amazing either. So please don't fault me for placing Dabuz in higher regards when he has the results to back up his credibility.

As for variety between countries, all you gave me was three characters, saying there's more of them than in the U.S. Well duh some characters will be more popular in other countries. I don't get why you have the idea that America isn't just as varied in character usage as your country. You have no basis for that.

 

[isaiah :)]

Not like it matters considering she gets shut down by much more faster and agile characters like Sheik, Sonic, Diddy, Yoshi and even Falcon/ZSS. Fox and Shulk would be better but Shulk has lag upon lag and Fox doesn't have a lot of approaching options against her.

I still consider Sheik and Sonic the best especially the latter considering his meta still hasn't been figured out

sorry but you give sonic way too much credit.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So using laggy online matches and testers who don't seem to actively participate in tournaments as the ones to determine the balance of the cast? No wonder it's so messed up, and why I quit the game.

@ Zoa This is inheritly wrong and faulty thinking.

League of Legends in particular is very similar to what Sakurai does to consider balance. None of these guys on the league balance are pro players, some are diamond admittingly which would be in the top 2% of players in League.

If you want a more applicable one, Mortal Combat X, Street Fighter also do similar.

Smash WiiU has really good wifi connection, unless you or your opponents internet sucks in which case that is on you.

Yes the balance team isn't the best of the best in terms of player base, oh well, PM's balance team isn't the best of the best either. In fact has a huge bias in balancing if you were a Melee top tier. Even in the backroom there are players with terrible bias for their own character far worse than anything Sakurai could be called out on.

He is also using more than one source, the dev team is also gathering other sources, most likely tournament results and online discussion they lurk to view.

Sorry but I gotta call this out, if you have a problem with that line of balance, you should have a problem with pretty much every other competitive fighter and even Project Melee.

edit: The only other reasonable thing to call him out on is the casual vs competitive mindset, I don't fault that personally because smash is made for everyone and not giving the middle finger to casuals like DOTA2 does.

 

[Scarlet Knight]

 

[ChikoLad]

Thank you for your answers to my questions. I believe you to be an experienced Rosalina main who knows a lot about the character. To wrap this thing up, I'll just say I think Dabuz will do just fine in the long run. He'll improve on his own terms, and continue to contend with the best of the best. I don't think he has to play the way you describe as "optimal". Like you said about your region, all the characters you listed have players with different playstyles, and that's completely fine. The thing for me is, and I mean no offense to you, but Dabuz has had many very high placings at tournaments with a large amount of talent, and all I've seen of you so far is a match against a FG Marth. I can't say you're bad, but I can't TRULY say you're amazing either. So please don't fault me for placing Dabuz in higher regards when he has the results to back up his credibility.

As for variety between countries, all you gave me was three characters, saying there's more of them than in the U.S. Well duh some characters will be more popular in other countries. I don't get why you have the idea that America isn't just as varied in character usage as your country. You have no basis for that.

I never said Dabuz himself isn't just fine, he can play however he wants. It's not like I think he's doing terribly for himself, quite the opposite in fact. It's other players trying to piggyback off his success and trying to say he's perfect is when things aren't right. It's underestimating the character, invalidating other players, and it puts too much pressure. It also just so happens that people look down on defensive playstyles. That's something I think isn't fair in and of itself, but at the LEAST, I don't like seeing characters misinterpreted as that. And if other players simply copy Dabuz and nothing else, her meta never develops.

Also that was the only worthwhile video I had to post. I don't consider it reflective of my abilities (I will note that although I always won against him as Rosalina, that Marth was a good Marth player - maybe not that match, but he was solid in the other matches I played against him). I don't know how I would rate myself as a player. I certainly don't think I'm perfect. I may have progressive ideas, but I haven't been able to popularise them yet, and I do have fundamentals to work on. I also need to work on certain ATs for Rosalina specifically. I don't think I'm more skilled than Dabuz, but I do think I am better at him at certain things by virtue of the fact he has said he isn't very good at them (he doesn't think sending Luma out is bad, he just doesn't like doing it), and I am developing ideas he is not. I'm not the only one either.

And yeah I know I didn't give you much info on the character variety, but as I said, you don't need me to look up tournament listings. I don't want to spend loads of time posting links and gathering data at this very moment in time.

 

[Staticky]

Don't get me wrong, I like Smash too. I think it's a good competitive game. But I do recognize that he has a point, as far as objectivity goes. And the guy I was quoting pretty obviously was taking that as Sakurai taking a dump on the competitive community.

He is though. "Go play another game if you want competitivity because I won't give you it" is basically what he is saying. In other words, "F*ck off competitive smashers"

Not to mention the custom one that buries opponents on the ground and meteors them in the air is actually a very good move in general.



A lot of casuals hated Rosalina at launch (some still do), mainly because Rosalina herself was TOO strong, and Luma respawned too quickly. There wasn't enough incentive to actually get good with Luma. Even I'll admit her balance was flawed then (she's an overall BETTER character now at least in co-operation with Luma, but more difficult to use). This was something that Sakurai patched in time for the Wii U version's release.

Most people have calmed down about her now though. They realise Luma takes longer to respawn now, and that Rosalina's N-air has less range than before. Oh, and they realise Luma can't attack while Rosalina is being thrown anymore.

Ok, to be fair, no one likes versing 2-in-1 characters. Does anyone like versing Ice Climbers or Rosalina and Luma? Nope.

 

[Zoa]

@ Zoa This is inheritly wrong and faulty thinking.

League of Legends in particular is very similar to what Sakurai does to consider balance. None of these guys on the league balance are pro players, some are diamond admittingly which would be in the top 2% of players in League.

If you want a more applicable one, Mortal Combat X, Street Fighter also do similar.

Smash WiiU has really good wifi connection, unless you or your opponents internet sucks in which case that is on you.

Yes the balance team isn't the best of the best in terms of player base, oh well, PM's balance team isn't the best of the best either. In fact has a huge bias in balancing if you were a Melee top tier. Even in the backroom there are players with terrible bias for their own character far worse than anything Sakurai could be called out on.

He is also using more than one source, the dev team is also gathering other sources, most likely tournament results and online discussion they lurk to view.

Sorry but I gotta call this out, if you have a problem with that line of balance, you should have a problem with pretty much every other competitive fighter and even Project Melee.

edit: The only other reasonable thing to call him out on is the casual vs competitive mindset, I don't fault that personally because smash is made for everyone and not giving the middle finger to casuals like DOTA2 does.

I never said any were the best at what they do, nor did I mention bias. My problem with the line of balancing mentioned is that online matches aren't a good source to measure character capability in relation to local play because of lag, and having a few play testers that don't appear to actively go to tournaments and play against other incredibly experienced players detracts from the best possible balance changes. It has nothing to do in relation towards other balances for games. There's almost no interaction with dedicated advanced players that the game could really use.

I'm not counting out the different sources the team uses for its balance changes. Sakurai even says he watched a tournament. I have no doubt of the different sources the team uses to try to limit subjectivity. The problem is that the team could really take feedback from advanced players and incorporate it as the metagame develops over time, and watching streams/recordings/whatever of local tournaments between skilled players goes a long ways over the majority of online matches and its lag.

I do have issues with balance in other games of course. I have my issues with how Olimar was handled in 3.5, and some of Link's changes as well. Spacie favoritism as well. They seem exempt from the guidelines the PMDT has set for other characters. This is just off the top of my head. I seem to not have clarified this enough. I have issues with the balance changes, but it's not the only reason I quit Smash 4. There are other reasons why I no longer find it enjoyable.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Balancing is hard if you have to make the character's moves unique while referencing their games.

just gonna leeve dis herr

 

[MOI-ARI]

I totally agree with you, remember that one time where Samus started punching people with her arm cannon. Or who could forget the iconic scene in Twilight Princess where Ganondorf uses his magical flying kick. But honestly my personal favorite is when Princess Peach slapped Bowser's *** to the moon with a frying pan.

Lol no one has a sense of humor apparently xD

This is the funniest **** ive ever read xD Nintendo, the true masters of Videogames.

 

[Gawain]

He is though. "Go play another game if you want competitivity because I won't give you it" is basically what he is saying. In other words, "F*ck off competitive smashers"

Ok, to be fair, no one likes versing 2-in-1 characters. Does anyone like versing Ice Climbers or Rosalina and Luma? Nope.

If you are a whiny and entitled child you might see it that way. All he's saying is that from a design standpoint the game is balanced around another playstyle, and that there are other games balanced for competitive play. You are the one getting offended by that statement because he's being upfront and saying that he is catering to multiple audiences.

 

[hakaithesamurai]

I believe Sakurai is correct in his approach. Tailoring the game to intermediates helps bring in more people into the game, while the game encourages further exploration for the more hardcover audience. If he didn't tailor to that audience smash would die undoubtedly

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Well there's a reason we're into competitive smash in the first place. I think we all like those variables. It makes the game feel more free and fun. Melee has those variables you mentioned in your second paragraph, except for the part about not many moves linking into each other. It's still a fine competitive game. I'm not saying Smash 4 should be Melee 2(I really don't want that), and I'm not really responding to this to argue about that topic anyway. Anyways, I think we know he's not attacking us, but it's like he's forgotten that he accidentally hit the nail on the head with Melee. I don't see why he can't do it again(in a more Smash 4-esque engine. Idk maybe I'm asking the impossible here, but if I know anybody who could do it, it'd be Sakurai).

How did Melee hit the nail on the head when certain characters have zero viability at the top levels? Characters like Ganondorf? In fact Melee's engine made it such that it is impossible for that variability to have a chance in battle, and that is primarily why Sakurai came to hate his creation, as I have as well. I also don't like a lot of the tech skill in melee that destroys your hands, i much prefer b reversing to wavedashing.

And I just want to note what I once said before, which is that Smash 4 actually was made as a competitive game and not as a casual or fun game. Think about it for a moment. Which game was more fun, smash 64 or smash 4? Those that give it thought know that smash 64 was definitely the more fun game (could combo better especially because you couldn't tech off of walls). So why didn't we just get a smash 64 with newer items and more characters and updated graphics, to a cool single player mode like in brawl? Actually even Melee had as good single player options as smash 4. Sakurai knew he had to fix the issues brawl had with characters all having powerful moves that made the game a little unbalanced, and had to fix chaingrabbing and make the game faster without making it combo heavy like smash 64 or even melee. But the fact that he did all this is not a olive branch to the community that plays it for fun, that's for sure. He actually had to sacrifice some fun in order that the game be more balanced for most if not all of the characters.
and this is where the ultimate irony resides
Not only does it make the game less fun, but according to some you "competitive" folk out there, it also makes the game LESS COMPETITIVE!!! And those that make such a statement deserve the ultimate "smh". In addition to the excellent comment someone made above about other fighter games being more balanced due to their design, another reason Sakurai tells people to go play other games is that those that look to play for combo strings mistake poor design for skill. In other words, we raise on a pedestal certain players disregarding mostly what character they play. So in fact what competitive really means, but what Sakurai does not want to discuss openly in any philosophical manner, is that it allows everyone to have a chance as long as they put the time into the character, while of course some imbalance will remain due to the very nature of the game itself even with the ability to mostly DI out of combos in smash 4.
Many of you don't like this; you want people to worship, you want to see skill that cant be obtained by those that even put 70% of their lives into smash...no, it has to be more than that for you. Yes, competition for some of you means no competition.
SMH

 

[luke_ario]

"Generally speaking, the most important resource for balancing is the report we receive from the playtesting team. While the playtesters don’t ever appear in the spotlight, I’m confident they’re skilled enough to perform quite well in a tournament." SMASH 4 AT EVO CONFIRMED?!?!?!?!?!?

 

[luke_ario]

 

[Teran]

Well Sakurai isn't wrong in his assessment of Smash 4's competitive playstyle, but that's just an admission of shortcomings in design (if his intention was to avoid that).

I mean, if he wanted an aggressive and thrilling game, he was already involved in making one.

 

[PootisKonga]

even Project Melee

I totally agree with you, but please stop calling it that. It was never actually called Project Melee, even if early on it was clearly referencing such. The only time Project Melee was used officially was when Project M was already taken as a name for something (forget which site), plus it was done by a single person and does not constitute the PMDT as a whole.

I agree about the Melee bias, and think it should rightfully be changed to be less like Melee in regards to certain top tiers (*cough**cough*)

But please stop calling Project M something it isn't, all you're doing is potentially spreading bad publicity instead of rationally criticizing

 

[Gawain]

How did Melee hit the nail on the head when certain characters have zero viability at the top levels? Characters like Ganondorf? In fact Melee's engine made it such that it is impossible for that variability to have a chance in battle, and that is primarily why Sakurai came to hate his creation, as I have as well. I also don't like a lot of the tech skill in melee that destroys your hands, i much prefer b reversing to wavedashing.

And I just want to note what I once said before, which is that Smash 4 actually was made as a competitive game and not as a casual or fun game. Think about it for a moment. Which game was more fun, smash 64 or smash 4? Those that give it thought know that smash 64 was definitely the more fun game (could combo better especially because you couldn't tech off of walls). So why didn't we just get a smash 64 with newer items and more characters and updated graphics, to a cool single player mode like in brawl? Actually even Melee had as good single player options as smash 4. Sakurai knew he had to fix the issues brawl had with characters all having powerful moves that made the game a little unbalanced, and had to fix chaingrabbing and make the game faster without making it combo heavy like smash 64 or even melee. But the fact that he did all this is not a olive branch to the community that plays it for fun, that's for sure. He actually had to sacrifice some fun in order that the game be more balanced for most if not all of the characters.
and this is where the ultimate irony resides
Not only does it make the game less fun, but according to some you "competitive" folk out there, it also makes the game LESS COMPETITIVE!!! And those that make such a statement deserve the ultimate "smh". In addition to the excellent comment someone made above about other fighter games being more balanced due to their design, another reason Sakurai tells people to go play other games is that those that look to play for combo strings mistake poor design for skill. In other words, we raise on a pedestal certain players disregarding mostly what character they play. So in fact what competitive really means, but what Sakurai does not want to discuss openly in any philosophical manner, is that it allows everyone to have a chance as long as they put the time into the character, while of course some imbalance will remain due to the very nature of the game itself even with the ability to mostly DI out of combos in smash 4.
Many of you don't like this; you want people to worship, you want to see skill that cant be obtained by those that even put 70% of their lives into smash...no, it has to be more than that for you. Yes, competition for some of you means no competition.
SMH

Every fighting game ever made has characters that can't be used competitively. They also have 3 or 4 characters that are obviously dominant. Even more recent and design-laden ones. With a roster of 50+ characters, there is literally no chance that anywhere even close to half that number will be viable, unless they're all clones of each other.