Tether ledge trump out of reversed B side cancel (Sexy ledge trump?)

[Marm']

So I was watching a match featuring Nairo's ZSS and this happened.

At first I was surprised, then I asked myself if this was possible with Samus. And after some time spent in the lab, I found out it is.

And here a concrete situation use :

So now I don't think this is already known? At least I never saw anyone doing it :V.
Anyway it's really easy to perform but it takes some time to master. You need to use the reverse b side cancel on the ledge, then keep going in that direction, else you wont have enough space for your tether to grab. In instance if you wanna do it on the left edge the input will be :
(go near ledge)(reverse B side cancel) (make sure to keep your momentum on the left), then

And for those who don't know, we can release a tethered ledge on frame 9 while a normally caught ledge can be released on frame 23. Which means this AT is a gain of 14 frames, making sure our B-air is now a true option, same for reversed charged shot (you have no idea how stylish it gets).
Maybe spike D-air is also possible, but this requires more testing

I'd say Samus has now a new safer kill option than her regular ledge trump.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Yep, we talked about this in the earlier reverse charge shot trump thread. We're still at the level where some of us know and use some of the tech, in various degrees of proficiency, but none of us really can make claim of mastery. We're getting there...
Even the pros, seven months on are just starting to show their real tech skills, nice to see that come out of Nairo so totally smooth.

 

[Marm']

Yup, but honestly it's really easy to input after few tries, and very easy to use in match.
However I wonder if it's faster than a normal ledge trump. I mean it looks really, really fast when you got it.

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

It's not a matter of simple execution is what DM is getting at. It's having the state of mind and the setup to do so. An opponent can buffer a ledge option in time before the trump occurs so unless our opponent is clueless or we condition him to hold on to the ledge for long enough, it's a difficult set up. I it's definitely not faster than a regular running ledge grab but against characters.

To dissuade get ups/ rolls we can can feint a ledge trump and toss out a CS in that direction or try to punish a ledge jump with whatever. Once we have them waiting on the ledge for us to commit something, then maybe we can try a MLC tether trump but even then I'm not sure if the window for reaction is large enough for them to react to us MLCing on the spot.

 

[Marm']

Oh ok i got your point now.
Well ledge trumping with samus is kind of über safe tbh. If they go for a buffered roll we can jump charged shot out of the ledge. But yeah, this is still either a conditionning or a surprise maneuver.

As for having the state of mind, I'd say it's player dependant.

Now i still think this is a better option than a regular ledge trump.
Despite the fact it might not be faster, it's stil a better tool considering the huge difference of lag and the possibility to land a d-air spike.

Maybe i'll post some games later to show it on use.

 

[Xygonn]

It's not a matter of simple execution is what DM is getting at. It's having the state of mind and the setup to do so. An opponent can buffer a ledge option in time before the trump occurs so unless our opponent is clueless or we condition him to hold on to the ledge for long enough, it's a difficult set up. I it's definitely not faster than a regular running ledge grab but against characters.

To dissuade get ups/ rolls we can can feint a ledge trump and toss out a CS in that direction or try to punish a ledge jump with whatever. Once we have them waiting on the ledge for us to commit something, then maybe we can try a MLC tether trump but even then I'm not sure if the window for reaction is large enough for them to react to us MLCing on the spot.

I think it's easy to condition waiting on the ledge by covering jump to start with, then missiles for grounded getups. Soon they will be waiting on the ledge. Then bam. It's trump time.

 

[Omega_Knight]

How exactly do you reverse cancel? I am inputting the buttons as you said but i keep shooting the charge shot towards the stage

 

[Marm']

Edited for more brightness.
You need to cancel a B side, not a charge shot. Just before you leave the ledge (while runnin), input a B side in the opposite direction. It takes some time to figure out the timing.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I've been practising the hell out of this. (I know right before patch, may not be the brightest idea to practice an AT...)
It can be executed so smoothly that there is no animation frame for the grapple beam at all. It looks identical to a regular instant trump, the only difference is you *hear* the grapple beam sound and of course all your aerials are now completely guaranteed. I see no reason to even attempt a regular trump any more.
Using a computer with computer reflexes as target, NONE of the aerials (b-air, d-air, Rev CS) are guaranteed out of a regular trump. With a tether trump ALL are guaranteed, with b-air being trivial, CS being harder and d-air the more difficult since it needs a horizontal line-up (someone mentioned this somewhere, I'm confirming it). And there's no need to instant ledge hop.

 

[DungeonMaster]

So I'm enormously mad this is gone from the game. I was just starting to get good at it.
I've been thinking about workarounds and how to get into a position from standing on stage into tether trump. Brainstorming ideas the only thing I can come up with is that we start by facing away from the edge and drop a bomb, then use the bomb roll animation to roll off the lip and instantly deploy the tether to trump. This is no where near as good an edgeguarding option, not even close, but it's the best I can come up with while still being salty as all hell.
You can drop the bomb in roughly the location to cover rolls from edge grab so it can be a fakeout of sorts. Testing it a bit yesterday sometimes I air-doge instead of tether, not sure why yet.

 

[Afro Smash]

Yeah its weird if you input Zair immediately after jumping, like straight after, you'll do an airdodge and not zair. I imagaine the same sort of thing is happening here

 

[Xygonn]

Yeah its weird if you input Zair immediately after jumping, like straight after, you'll do an airdodge and not zair. I imagaine the same sort of thing is happening here

It has to do with actionable frame order or the buffer I think. So if you buffer during jump squat, the dodge comes before the attack. Same thing if you are using it right after another aerial in the air. You'll dodge. Just push z again really fast to cancel the air dodge into zair.

So I'm enormously mad this is gone from the game. I was just starting to get good at it.
I've been thinking about workarounds and how to get into a position from standing on stage into tether trump. Brainstorming ideas the only thing I can come up with is that we start by facing away from the edge and drop a bomb, then use the bomb roll animation to roll off the lip and instantly deploy the tether to trump. This is no where near as good an edgeguarding option, not even close, but it's the best I can come up with while still being salty as all hell.
You can drop the bomb in roughly the location to cover rolls from edge grab so it can be a fakeout of sorts. Testing it a bit yesterday sometimes I air-doge instead of tether, not sure why yet.

RAR -> SHFF -> zair is not as fast, but it works well. Here's why: Use RAR SH -> CS to cover getups. this will get them staying on the ledge instead of buffering inputs. Then you trump to bair.