Teaching New Players

[Mono.]

Drive and focus are predominantly masculine qualities.

sigh

i knew I was gay at the end

 

[NameChange]

What's wrong with male players reading this thread? What do you think males aren't good enough to perform this task? That this is a "Ladies First" scenario? You should knock off your attitude and your "separation of sexes" mentality. It is corroding the community as we speak and in doing so you have reduced yourself to the miniscule feces of a mere bacterium with an improper amount of chromosomes. Your a disease to the community

Completely misinterpreted my post.
Unless I was misleading myself, then my apologies.


And since when did I say males aren't good enough

 

[MookieRah]

My first post wasn't sexist at all, and reading yours doesn't sound very racist either.

Wha? I really hope you are just trolling me at this point. If you don't find what you said either racist or sexist by now then wow. Ironic that you said you were trying to be "open minded."

Och jag har inte ens min accent längre!

Om det där meddelandet var inte "google translated" så ska jag bli väldigt imponerad. Sadly I still have my accent, but luckily being from Tupelo the southern accent was never that thick anyways.

Umbreon does win the most sexist award though : (. Come on man, you are smarter than that! If you spend time with any group of competitive women (I am a ref for a local Roller Derby team for example) you will know that the idea of "masculine" and "feminine" traits are largely social constructs. Those labels should just be abolished because it creates an unnecessarily polarized view between the sexes and perpetuates sexism. I'm really, honestly asking you to try looking into the subject more than you have and to not simply brush it off.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm not going to go into huge detail because psychology isn't exactly my area of expertise, but I am interested in the general pursuit of knowledge and do have a solid understanding of gender roles so I'll take a crack at explaining why your assertions are wrong. Basically plain and simple recent studies have shown that men and women aren't nearly as different as old "science" would have us believe. Just like way back in the day there were respected academic works that explained how blacks were less intelligent, many of the studies on gender are skewed by culture. As much as I don't particularly respect sociology as a field for the most part, environment does form people and stereotypes and societal roles affect the brain. There have been cultures in the past where women have taken on "masculine" jobs and vice versa in every day life, the only reason we associate certain behaviors with women is because that's the way our culture is. Sensitive men aren't more feminine and competitive women aren't masculine, they're just men and women who don't fit an artificial template made to define the way they "should" be.

I agree that men and women are fairly similar overall in a biological sense. Clearly though, gender is very much skewed by culture. You made a logic jump that I did not by expanding your argument to include causation, where I knew quite well that my premise lacked genuine endogeneity because my observations and theory cannot possibly account for any number of influences that would affect them. For example, had I lived "back in the day" I could have neutrally observed blacks to be less intelligent- and frankly I would have been largely correct in noting so, but that's because I'm also not trying to explain that black people had a lower general quality of living, less access to education, a stifling system, and numerous other variables that are beyond the scope of that very basic premise. This isn't a knock to either black people or women, and I don't particularly think you're wrong so much as you are going one step further than I ever did. I maintain that we can generalize a set of behaviors as "masculine" and "feminine" and that most of the people reading this would have even a slight idea of what that refers to without me having to explain it suggests that those sets of behaviors are quite real and observable. We are dynamic creatures that operate within an environment that we are reactive to, and I'm okay leaving it at that if you are.

I am also not suggesting that men are masculine or whatever else, simply that some people are more masculine and some are more feminine, and that either gender can operate with either energy. I would say that masculine men and feminine women are more common than the opposites of those, but whatever you get the idea. I'm not telling anyone how they should be or any of that mess.

Umbreon does win the most sexist award though : (. Come on man, you are smarter than that! If you spend time with any group of competitive women (I am a ref for a local Roller Derby team for example) you will know that the idea of "masculine" and "feminine" traits are largely social constructs. Those labels should just be abolished because it creates an unnecessarily polarized view between the sexes and perpetuates sexism. I'm really, honestly asking you to try looking into the subject more than you have and to not simply brush it off.

Frankly, I didn't expect anyone to make the call-out after it was immediately obvious to absolutely anyone that my idea is based on those social constructs. I am actually ashamed for you by association for labeling a simple idea based on my observations as sexist. You couldn't put aside the pointy finger for 5 minutes to at least investigate whether my ideas had some merit or not on your own? Maybe take a day or two to just sit back and observe gender roles and think about it? Talk to your Roller Derby team about it in person since you have ready access to an ideal sample population at your leisure? I would humbly submit that I'm looking into it more than you are by proposing a new idea and that you're the one brushing it off by labeling me. And you want labels of abstract behavior to be abolished because you don't think your audience has the maturity to process simple concepts without pointing the finger like you did? Your whole post is egregiously offensive to the very framework of intellect. 0/10

 

[TreK]

Umbreon, people aren't saying that gender roles do not exist in today's culture. Quite the contrary actually, since, you know, they want them gone.
It's the same difference between saying 'MK's OP' and 'ban MK' : one of these statements stops at the observation, the other starves for a change.

 

[Viceversa96]

You know even if this thread's approach was bad. Some of the **** you guys are writing are ****ing hilarious. Love this thread right now.

 

[Papa+Stone]

Youre welcome

 

[DayLaMike]

Um, no, you're explaining it using false "facts" derived from a sexist culture. I recognize the differences between men and women just fine and it's true, we aren't the same. But the differences that you are claiming simply aren't inherently true.

So claiming women more often than not aren't as competitive as men is derived from "sexist culture"? Still trying to understand how it's not true or sexist when it can be observed even in young childhood.

 

[Papa+Stone]

As much as you want to hide it guys, stereotypes exist even though there are exceptions. There are less black hockey players, less women athletes or whatever, less white basketball players, only koreans play starcraft etc etc. you can argue with statistics, although there are some men on project runway that pound ***** for the most part they are all gay, same applied to other stereotypes. Mango makes less women drop their pants than jesus does. Even darkrain or dashizwiz or vist or w/e could not win a fight with mike tyson even though they would perform much better than everyone else. You all should just accept the way god made you all.

 

[Paradoxium]

Women are so complicated, lets just nerf them in 3.0

 

[trojanpooh]

So claiming women more often than not aren't as competitive as men is derived from "sexist culture"? Still trying to understand how it's not true or sexist when it can be observed even in young childhood.

Culture starts permeating the brain as soon as it's developed enough to perceive. Scientific studies show that our brains are essentially identical and basic observation skills allow us to see that 'tomboys' are much more common in younger age brackets which directly refutes your claim. The issue isn't that you're pointing out gender differences, the issue is that you aren't correctly diagnosing the cause. What you're taking as a psychological difference is actually a sociological difference which is an entirely different scenario.

 

[DMG]

Best post in this entire thread by far

Well DMG isn't here, so somebody has to be the goofball.

You're hired.

He can be hired for this thread only. Reading these posts gave me penile cancer (although Hime had a funny one about Finding Apples and being his fake nurse)

 

[DayLaMike]

Culture starts permeating the brain as soon as it's developed enough to perceive. Scientific studies show that our brains are essentially identical and basic observation skills allow us to see that 'tomboys' are much more common in younger age brackets which directly refutes your claim. The issue isn't that you're pointing out gender differences, the issue is that you aren't correctly diagnosing the cause. What you're taking as a psychological difference is actually a sociological difference which is an entirely different scenario.

I would hope that our brains are the same...I think that's just something that comes with being human. Anyway I don't really want to continue this discussion anymore as it has nothing to do with smash or the topic of this thread.

 

[MookieRah]

Frankly, I didn't expect anyone to make the call-out after it was immediately obvious to absolutely anyone that my idea is based on those social constructs. I am actually ashamed for you by association for labeling a simple idea based on my observations as sexist. You couldn't put aside the pointy finger for 5 minutes to at least investigate whether my ideas had some merit or not on your own? Maybe take a day or two to just sit back and observe gender roles and think about it? Talk to your Roller Derby team about it in person since you have ready access to an ideal sample population at your leisure? I would humbly submit that I'm looking into it more than youare by proposing a new idea and that you're the one brushing it off by labeling me. And you want labels of abstract behavior to be abolished because you don't think your audience has the maturity to process simple concepts without pointing the finger like you did? Your whole post is egregiously offensive to the very framework of intellect. 0/10

You are absolutely right, for the most part. I didn't properly read through the entirety of your posts on this and I was quick to judge based on a few sentences taken out of context. There is no excusing that, and I apologize. It was way out of line and I feel very foolish for jumping the gun like I did.

As far as your actual thoughts on the subject, I do find them interesting, but my problems with using and defining traits as masculine and feminine still remain. For one, it still perpetuates the idea that things are masculine or feminine even if your intent is based on using those terms out of convenience (that meaning you are aware that they are merely arbitrary labels that are socially constructed). Secondly it presents a false dichotomy, that a trait can be either masculine or feminine. That is compounded by the fact that while most people in western culture would identify certain things as masculine or feminine consistently, there are still some outlying things that are quite subjective, and even more so when you broaden the perspective to other cultures/sub cultures.

In the end it seems more like an unnecessary artifact to bring up if your goal isn't really an attempt to promote differences between sexes, but rather discussing how personality types could affect someone's ability for smash or other things.

 

[Deleted member]

I would assert actually that a like or dislike is so skewed according to gender that gender is a determinant factor of whether the person will play video games or not. Which I think we can all agree is readily observable at the sausage-fests we routinely attend, the population at these events is simply not distributed evenly across gender. I would say a false dichotomy exists were I making assertions of gender to a normalized distribution in which men and women played video games with equal frequency and fervor. At some arbitrary point, we would have to decide if gender was a factor statistically to either prove or disprove a dichotomy, although I don't know what that ratio would be. Thankfully, current smash events are like 97% male so nothing like that is needed. I think the observable skew enforces a true dichotomy more than anything.

Umbreon, people aren't saying that gender roles do not exist in today's culture. Quite the contrary actually, since, you know, they want them gone.
It's the same difference between saying 'MK's OP' and 'ban MK' : one of these statements stops at the observation, the other starves for a change.

I don't think that people within the culture at large want gender roles to be gone. Gender helps establish a base of one's identity and allows both genders to operate within behaviors that are comfortable because they have clear and established roles. It also makes interaction between genders MUCH easier. I personally shy away from masculine women because frankly they don't behave in a comfortable and predictable manner for what I expect from them as a masculine man. To me, loud-mouthed cocky women with motorcycles and short hair are unattractive. Are loudness, arrogance, motorcycles, and short hair definitively masculine? I would say "yes, for the most part" even though it's clear that either gender can have those characteristics. And yet, I would also suspect that most of the men in here would agree with me that the profiled female I provided is also unattractive to them. This is a video game forum designed to attract a highly male population, so most of the people reading this should have a penis and be attracted to feminine women. We jerk off to curvy, modest, affectionate women with long hair and there's nothing wrong with any of that. It doesn't have to be sexist in any way, it can simply and naturally be that way without anyone making it something uglier with some agenda.

edit: There's nothing shameful about the original post at all, why did was that edited?

 

[trojanpooh]

Wow....just......wow. It's like every time you post you try to top the last one for most offensive post.

 

[Burnsy]

Where do you get that impression? Umbreon could spend a lot less time and thinking power on his posts here if all he wanted was to create something offensive. It isn't a particuarly difficult thing to do.

 

[Fortress]

He can be hired for this thread only. Reading these posts gave me penile cancer (although Hime had a funny one about Finding Apples and being his fake nurse)

So, I've heard about this internship you're running?

 

[trojanpooh]

Where do you get that impression? Umbreon could spend a lot less time and thinking power on his posts here if all he wanted was to create something offensive. It isn't a particuarly difficult thing to do.

 

[Deleted member]

Wow....just......wow. It's like every time you post you try to top the last one for most offensive post.

You can discard that crappy societal programming whenever you like and still be an upstanding and respectful person. Contrary to what a lot of posts in this thread suggest, it's actually okay to be a man.

 

[GHNeko]

no it's not umbreon

it's a sin to be a man

we're perverted disgusting animals that treat the proper gender as sex tools that we enjoy oppressing and flaunting our man-induced "superiority" over them as well as taunt them for the natural life challenges they have to endure by we disgustingly get a free pass on.

we should all be castrated upon birth and raised to be female so that wars will end, disease vanishes, and world peace finally happens.

*tips fedora*

 

[Fortress]

*tips fedora*

>mfw this entire thread

 

[trojanpooh]

You can discard that crappy societal programming whenever you like and still be an upstanding and respectful person. Contrary to what a lot of posts in this thread suggest, it's actually okay to be a man.

The fact that you see these posts as anti-man and not pro-woman is pretty concerning. Nobody here is saying men are evil, if you're interpreting it that way you may have some deep rooted issues with gender that could use some checking out.

 

[meow]

It's obvious that men are evil when the majority of super villains are men
ITS CORRELATIONAL
it has to be true
Coincidence I think not

/end sarcasm

 

[trash?]

I am 100% down for the gynocracy, peach dittos until the end of time

 

[Mono.]

tumblr pls go

 

[trash?]

you will be the first on the wall for spermjacking

 

[Deleted member]

The fact that you see these posts as anti-man and not pro-woman is pretty concerning. Nobody here is saying men are evil, if you're interpreting it that way you may have some deep rooted issues with gender that could use some checking out.

The original poster was shamed into editing his original post on the subject. That's pretty clearly anti-man to me. He was simply being mindful of his girlfriend's experience, which is a good, healthy function of empathy and not overt sexism. Most women appreciate men that take time and care to treat them properly with dignity and respect. Attacking my person with your contrived issues isn't going to change my stance.

I hold both genders in equally high esteem, but the fact is that at the end of the day, men are women are different. It's better to understand those differences and to accept reality than it is to deny them out of willful ignorance and to assign a derogatory label to it. If you don't understand or empathize with the group of people you're talking about, you're not really helping them.

 

[trojanpooh]

Did you read the OP? It was an extremely sexist piece. But whatever, I'm done talking to you. It's clear that you have issues that aren't going to be fixed anytime soon, especially not from a random dude on the internet.

 

[trash?]

when the revolution comes, there will only be dins fire spammers left in the world

 

[Deleted member]

Did you read the OP? It was an extremely sexist piece. But whatever, I'm done talking to you. It's clear that you have issues that aren't going to be fixed anytime soon, especially not from a random dude on the internet.

Analyzing a problem that is essentially gender-based while ignoring the potential of interactions commonly specific to that gender is analogous to analyzing a time series problem without knowing the chronological order of the observations.

I saw nothing in the OP but sincere consideration for another valued human being. It's not about me having issues, nor does intellectual withdrawal make you the enlightened debate party. Try challenging my ideas rather than attacking my person or running away. In effect, "Don't be a bitch".

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

sure looks like the 1950s in here

 

[trojanpooh]

Analyzing a problem that is essentially gender-based while ignoring the potential of interactions commonly specific to that gender is analogous to analyzing a time series problem without knowing the chronological order of the observations.

I saw nothing in the OP but sincere consideration for another valued human being. It's not about me having issues, nor does intellectual withdrawal make you the enlightened debate party. Try challenging my ideas rather than attacking my person or running away. In effect, "Don't be a bitch".

We're talking about sexism. You ideas and person are directly correlated. And yes, he was genuinely thinking about another human being but he was doing it wrong. He wasn't asking how to help someone get better at the game despite not being the most competitive person in the world, he was asking how to get a girl to play as well as a guy even though girls aren't good at videogames or other competitive activities. Whether he intended to be so blatantly offensive/harmful or not, there's no denying that it's sexist.

 

[Paradoxium]

Completely misinterpreted my post.
Unless I was misleading myself, then my apologies.


And since when did I say males aren't good enough

Oh yea I was joking, I don't really care about the male female thing

 

[Paradoxium]

Hey look what I found

i think you're both stupid. one of you is actually stupid, and the other is stupid for pursuing a futile argument with a stupid person. i'll let you two decide which of you takes each role. itch".

I think it applies to this thread right about now

 

[Deleted member]

Hey look what I found


I think it applies to this thread right about now

hahahaha i got *****

10/10, flawless victory

 

[Jolteon]

no it's not umbreon

it's a sin to be a man

we're perverted disgusting animals that treat the proper gender as sex tools that we enjoy oppressing and flaunting our man-induced "superiority" over them as well as taunt them for the natural life challenges they have to endure by we disgustingly get a free pass on.

we should all be castrated upon birth and raised to be female so that wars will end, disease vanishes, and world peace finally happens.

*tips fedora*

Golden ending.

 

[MookieRah]

I would assert actually that a like or dislike is so skewed according to gender that gender is a determinant factor of whether the person will play video games or not.

Actually statistics show that women make up almost half of the market when it comes to gaming, and it isn't just social media or mobile games either. I assume though that we are more referring to women that play games competitively though, which that is true. There are far less women that play games competitively than men.

At some arbitrary point, we would have to decide if gender was a factor statistically to either prove or disprove a dichotomy, although I don't know what that ratio would be. Thankfully, current smash events are like 97% male so nothing like that is needed. I think the observable skew enforces a true dichotomy more than anything.

Whether or not men make up most of the competitive gaming crowd has no affect on whether or not you should use the terms masculine or feminine in your theory towards traits that would push someone to become competitive in gaming. My old point was that you can easily take out those labels and simply discuss the traits themselves and it would communicate the same way.

For example:
Drive and focus are important qualities for competitive gamers. To expect someone who is unfocused or is not driven towards gaming, male or female, to have those qualities or to push for them is more likely to put that person off because it is not within his or her standard means of operation. The lessons don't matter, the techniques don't matter, the characters don't matter.

That still communicates the same thing. Your point was that someone without those two traits would not pursue gaming to that level and pushing that on them would not be a good thing. All this does is makes the same point more directly by taking away the problematic gender labels that didn't really add much to the discussion in the first place.

The original poster was shamed into editing his original post on the subject. That's pretty clearly anti-man to me.

How is it anti-man to edit something due to negative feedback? Is it because he didn't stick to his guns? I don't think one has to be bull-headed and stubborn to be a man, even if you are trying to achieve some western "ideal" of what a man is. There are several famous manly men that were famous for their ability to accept mistakes and responsibility. Old US presidents come to mind.

He was simply being mindful of his girlfriend's experience, which is a good, healthy function of empathy and not overt sexism. Most women appreciate men that take time and care to treat them properly with dignity and respect.

Except it wasn't something that came from a place of dignity and respect. He was talking from a place of superiority over women. His intention might have been for good, but his ideas and thoughts about women in general were clearly sexist.
Attacking my person with your contrived issues isn't going to change my stance.

I hold both genders in equally high esteem, but the fact is that at the end of the day, men are women are different. It's better to understand those differences and to accept reality than it is to deny them out of willful ignorance and to assign a derogatory label to it.

At the end of the day one can also ask why men and women tend to be different rather than predicating that the assumption is that men and women are different due to genetics. It is clear, especially as a parent, that gender roles are pushed on people as soon as they are out the womb. Historically, what has been defined as masculine and feminine have been in a constant state of flux.

So, going back to your idea that at it's base level a person's character traits will decide things, well I quickly found a study that seems to show that gender has very little to account for whether or not someone has a particular trait.

Here is a link to an article on the study: http://rochester.edu/news/show.php?id=5382Here is a link to the actual study: http://www.psych.rochester.edu/people/reis_harry/assets/pdf/CarothersReis_2012.pdf

So the question is why then are so few women in competitive gaming remains. It clearly isn't because women lack drive and focus, so why aren't they putting their drive and focus towards excelling in gaming? It's easy to say "because they are women" or "because of feminine traits" but that doesn't do anything to get more women involved in our community. It's a non-answer. I think that there are a lot of gender role based societal factors that prevent women from pursuing gaming like that, but I also believe it is because the gaming community discourages women from the group.

 

[Papa+Stone]

Why are smashers even arguing about sexism or what girls like you guys dont even talk to girls

 

[DMG]

I'm sorry sir, your fedora and black jacket are showing