Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Routa]

Once again I must remind that in the first voting round every character starts from mid tier (tier 4).

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Wario, Swordfighter, M2, MK, Cloud, G&W, Ness, Lucas, Pikachu, Pit(s), Villager, Toon Link and Yoshi all have a better or equal air game.


It is far from one of the best recoveries. It is linear, slowish and lacks hitbox (makes it relatively easy to challenge).


Her edgeguarding is good I give you that, but once again there are characters with far better edgeguarding game. For example Wario can cover pretty much every ledge get up options with Chomp and he can go relatively easily off stage and challenge his foes recovery with Dair and Fair. Also he has his Waft (and if customs are in the play he has waft every 30 sec so....).


And the magic word is... IF. The thing is that she has hard time getting in due to her small hitboxes, lack of disjoints, unsafe on shield moves and lag. Jiglly needs to be on your face to deal damage and the sad thing is that being on someones face with Jiggly is dangerous as ****.

Now I am aware of the things she is good at, but what I'm seeing there is a lot more cons than pros when it comes to Jiggly.

I have no choice but to agree with this argument

 

[MarioMeteor]

This list is funny. Literally every one of those points is wrong if not the complete opposite of the truth.
Her lightweight barely helps her escape from combos since she has no real combo breakers

You know, except for her frame 5 neutral air.

Her air game is actually quite average since it's balance by her low range. Yoshi's air game is probably the best of the cast due to high priority, long-range move and the fastest air speed in the game.

That still leaves her six jumps and second fastest air game.

Lingering hitboxes are only useful if you have the range for them to even hit the opponent. Again, Yoshi does this better.

None of Yoshi's attacks linger as long as Jigglypuff and as such are not as effective as her's. Neutral air catches sidesteps and rolls, late forward air combos into quite a few things, including Rest, and down air does all of the above and covers the ledge.

Her recovery is awful and actually one of the worst since she has no U-special recovery option. It's incredibly easy to gimp with a simple F-tilt or or D-tilt or even a fast smash attack.Rest is awful and can be punished even if it hits since it doesn't guarantee star KO.Again, her bad recovery and low range make her edge-guarding quite bad. Look to MK or Pika for a good edge-guarding game.

I'm tempted to dismiss you as an idiot on these three points alone. Again, notice the six jumps, fast aerials and amazing air speed. Rest is always going to KO a lightweight at around 50% and a heavyweight at 70%. This isn't even factoring Rage. It's a simple matter of memorization, really.

Her small stature is decent. The only true point you actually listed.

I like how you pay attention to the least important point.

She doesn't rack damage that quickly since her moves are pretty weak. Also, even if she did, it's so hard to get in for her that it doesn't matter.

Her grounded attacks are weak, yes, but her aerials all do great damage for how fast they are. A simple aerial string will do at least 20+%.

She's not that hard to punish since she has to get so close to her opponent to actually hit them.

Hence "spacing."

Do you even Jigglypuff?

 

[Xandercosm]

I'm tempted to dismiss you as an idiot

I think you need to give it a rest. You're wrong. You know it, I know it, everyone else knows it. At this point you're just embarrassing yourself by flinging petty insults at me.

Let's not waste another page on this silly debate.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

You know, except for her frame 5 neutral air.

That still leaves her six jumps and second fastest air game.

None of Yoshi's attacks linger as long as Jigglypuff and as such are not as effective as her's. Neutral air catches sidesteps and rolls, late forward air combos into quite a few things, including Rest, and down air does all of the above and covers the ledge.

I'm tempted to dismiss you as an idiot on these three points alone. Again, notice the six jumps, fast aerials and amazing air speed. Rest is always going to KO a lightweight at around 50% and a heavyweight at 70%. This isn't even factoring Rage. It's a simple matter of memorization, really.

I like how you pay attention to the least important point.

Her grounded attacks are weak, yes, but her aerials all do great damage for how fast they are. A simple aerial string will do at least 20+%.

Hence "spacing."

Do you even Jigglypuff?

You realize that you are making no sense. You lost this argument, I think even winter left. Face it, your main is low tier boo hoo. jk taht sounded mean. But your acting like puff is mid tier which she is not. She has the least results out of everyone in bottom besides maybe miis.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I think you need to give it a rest. You're wrong. You know it, I know it, everyone else knows it. At this point you're just embarrassing yourself by flinging petty insults at me.

Let's not waste another page on this silly debate.

What I know is that you insist on calling this character bad (and I'm not denying that she is) without knowing the first thing about her. I notice how you chose to ignore the rest of what I said because you've run out of straws to grasp at. You really should educate yourself.

You realize that you are making no sense. You lost this argument, I think even winter left. Face it, your main is low tier boo hoo. jk taht sounded mean. But your acting like puff is mid tier which she is not. She has the least results out of everyone in bottom besides maybe miis.

I'm sorry if this is beyond your comprehension or if you're still salty about the cookie comment but don't act like you actually did anything.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Wintermelon43 joins the battle!

Many people think puff is the worst, or in the bottom 3. Also, you have to realize the meta was earlier in then now. We know more, and we know new stuff. Puff has like what, Bair and Fair for her. You are not giving quality reasons for her not to be in the bottom.


EDIT:You did not see me last time vote for a char w/o reason, i think every vote needs reasoning. Also, i will include reasoning for my votes in like after someone else posts.

And neutral air, down air, jab, up tilt, down special, side special,

Ok, you want reasons, ill give you some, but maybe you should be a dear and give some yourself. 1.If puff had more tools, we would actually see an argument, not just you saying random s**t. Secondly, puff does not have a proper game in general. From my knowledge, she has no confirms into rest, have you seen ANY puff do well. We have seen every character, besdies like gannon and miis, get results(zelda has ven). Results actually MATTER. That is the reason yoshi is not higher up. I do admit, my knowledge on puff is little, but I don't think you have knowledge on every character. Also, @Feelicks and Xandercosm and Bowserboy3 can back me up


EDIT:Also, that cookie thing was just flat out rude.

I believe @Jiggly found a confirm into rest, could be wrong though (Which is why I tagged him). I've seryender do good, BrianYDG got 17th at SSC. Jiggly has results. Not being rude, just correcting.

I'll make you a list in typical Xandercosm fashion:

• Insanely low range
• Low priority moves
• Lightest character in the game
• Rest barely kills until around 60-70% unless the opponent has awful DI
• Very few combos
• Wall of pain is gone from Melee
• 3rd (or 2nd, I forget) slowest dash speed
• No throw combos
• Bad frame data on smash attacks
• Some of the most laughable specials in the entire game

There you go.

Her specials aren't laughable, Pound is pretty good, espicially for breaking shields, and rest is pretty good too, apart from the punish without star KO.

Fair enough. And here is my retort:

• Her lightweight status makes her practically immune to combos.
• Her air game is damn near unrivaled.
• The lingering hitboxes on her aerials makes them great defensively.
• She has one of the best recoveries in the game.
• Rest actually kills at around 60% on average and is a very good out of shield punish.
• She has one of, if not the best edgeguarding games of the cast.
• Her small stature makes her harder to hit than most other characters.
• She racks up damage quickly when she gets in.
• She's extremely hard to punish when here aerials are spaced correctly. And last but not least,

She's fabulous.

Your extremely limited knowledge.

I know, why do you think I said it?

• Yeah......... it barely ever makes her escape
• Air game is good, but defitenly rivaled.
• This is true
• She's easily gimped. I'm finally starting to open my eyes too Kirby and Jigglypuff's recovery not being good because of this.
• Correct
• Good edgeugarding, but there are others with much better edgeguarding
• What? You had to have made that up. She's kinda big in fatness, so if anything, the opposite is true.
• Correct, but this is hard to do anyway so that's a big flaw
• Probably not

I'll try and do my typical "yeah, she has negatives, but she has positives" comparison on Puff...

- Low range? Well, yeah. Low range.
- Some moves are low priority, but most of them are just so slow it seems like they have terrible priority because lots of other hitboxes come out before them.
- She is indeed the lightest character, ans though it can help in some situations like not getting combo'd as much, you could argue that a character doing half a a bread and butter combo could put her in KO range because she's so light.
- To be fair, Rest is decent. It's not terrible, but it's just not something you fear anymore, as it cant take your stock from a single mistake. It deals incredible damage, but it's main boon is for killing, and even though it still kills rather early relative to a lot of kill moves, it's still not as rewarding as one would expect for such a laggy, punishable move.
- No combos is kinda true. She can string aerials together pretty well, and has a really good off stage gimp game. It would be fantastic if she had a reliable way to get an opponent in a scary off stage position easily, but she doesn't.
- She is VERY slow, but is very fast in the air. You just have to play it right I suppose.
- I'll just add that though the shield changes may have helped her Pound and Back Air and Smash Attacks loads, the fact that she dies off a shield break makes this irrelevant, especially when you have characters like Marth. Lucina, Samus, Yoshi, Bowser, Ganon etc who can all destroy a full shield instantly.

Meh, even some of those I had to scrape the bottom of the barrel for. I don't like this whole *reels off only negatives* fashion. Every character has some positive, no matter how little it is. That's Jigglypuff's problem; her positives are so little, she just doesn't have much of a chance to shine. It's such a shame, because a better launch angle and more power on Rest could totally make her main gimmick scary.

That list was really good, I have nothing to say. But you're wrong on that Jigglypuff doesn't have many strengths.

This list is funny. Literally every one of those points is wrong if not the complete opposite of the truth.

• Her lightweight barely helps her escape from combos since she has no real combo breakers
• Her air game is actually quite average since it's balance by her low range. Yoshi's air game is probably the best of the cast due to high priority, long-range move and the fastest air speed in the game.
• Lingering hitboxes are only useful if you have the range for them to even hit the opponent. Again, Yoshi does this better.
• Her recovery is awful and actually one of the worst since she has no U-special recovery option. It's incredibly easy to gimp with a simple F-tilt or or D-tilt or even a fast smash attack.
• Rest is awful and can be punished even if it hits since it doesn't guarantee star KO.
• Again, her bad recovery and low range make her edge-guarding quite bad. Look to MK or Pika for a good edge-guarding game.
• Her small stature is decent. The only true point you actually listed.
• She doesn't rack damage that quickly since her moves are pretty weak. Also, even if she did, it's so hard to get in for her that it doesn't matter.
• She's not that hard to punish since she has to get so close to her opponent to actually hit them.

• Correct
• This is defitenly incorrect, neutral air and forward air are great, back air and down air are good too.
• Don't know much about hitboxes, so no comment
• Not one of the worst but bad, yes
• Rest is pretty good actually due to her KO Power
• Meta Knight and Pikachu have much better edgeguarding, but that doesn't mean Jigglypuff's is bad, she has good edgeguarding.
• Similar to what I said, it's hard to get the damage anyway.
• Correct

Wario, Swordfighter, M2, MK, Cloud, G&W, Ness, Lucas, Pikachu, Pit(s), Villager, Toon Link and Yoshi all have a better or equal air game.


It is far from one of the best recoveries. It is linear, slowish and lacks hitbox (makes it relatively easy to challenge).


Her edgeguarding is good I give you that, but once again there are characters with far better edgeguarding game. For example Wario can cover pretty much every ledge get up options with Chomp and he can go relatively easily off stage and challenge his foes recovery with Dair and Fair. Also he has his Waft (and if customs are in the play he has waft every 30 sec so....).


And the magic word is... IF. The thing is that she has hard time getting in due to her small hitboxes, lack of disjoints, unsafe on shield moves and lag. Jiglly needs to be on your face to deal damage and the sad thing is that being on someones face with Jiggly is dangerous as ****.

Now I am aware of the things she is good at, but what I'm seeing there is a lot more cons than pros when it comes to Jiggly.

Jigglypuff's aierals game is better than Mr. Game & Watch, Pit, and Toon Link. Correct on everything else in this post.

You know, except for her frame 5 neutral air.

That still leaves her six jumps and second fastest air game.

None of Yoshi's attacks linger as long as Jigglypuff and as such are not as effective as her's. Neutral air catches sidesteps and rolls, late forward air combos into quite a few things, including Rest, and down air does all of the above and covers the ledge.

I'm tempted to dismiss you as an idiot on these three points alone. Again, notice the six jumps, fast aerials and amazing air speed. Rest is always going to KO a lightweight at around 50% and a heavyweight at 70%. This isn't even factoring Rage. It's a simple matter of memorization, really.

I like how you pay attention to the least important point.

Her grounded attacks are weak, yes, but her aerials all do great damage for how fast they are. A simple aerial string will do at least 20+%.

Hence "spacing."

Do you even Jigglypuff?

Okay, for one thing, Yoshi's aierals are way better than Jigglypuff's.

You realize that you are making no sense. You lost this argument, I think even winter left. Face it, your main is low tier boo hoo. jk taht sounded mean. But your acting like puff is mid tier which she is not. She has the least results out of everyone in bottom besides maybe miis.

Ikr, Mariometeor is losing so badly. I'm one of the biggest Jigglypuff arguers and still disagree with some of his points. She has better results than a few bottom tiers though.

 

[Xandercosm]

What I know is that you insist on calling this character bad (and I'm not denying that she is) without knowing the first thing about her. I notice how you chose to ignore the rest of what I said because you've run out of straws to grasp at. You really should educate yourself.

I'm sorry if this is beyond your comprehension or if you're still salty about the cookie comment but don't act like you actually did anything.

Are you kidding me? Were my 2 separate lists not enough evidence for you? All you did was make a couple snappy one-liner filled rebuttals to my lists without any actual evidence or reasoning.

You are really bad at debating, my friend. I think we really need to move on from this whole thing. You've made your decision. The rest of the people in this thread have made theirs.

 

[MarioMeteor]

• What? You had to have made that up. She's kinda big in fatness, so if anything, the opposite is true.

Jigglypuff is a lot of things, but big isn't one of them. She can duck under damn near most projectiles in the game and a lot of physical attacks. A so-called "Jigglypuff arguer" should know that.

Okay, for one thing, Yoshi's aierals are way better than Jigglypuff's.

Your point is? I never said they weren't.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

What I know is that you insist on calling this character bad (and I'm not denying that she is) without knowing the first thing about her. I notice how you chose to ignore the rest of what I said because you've run out of straws to grasp at. You really should educate yourself.

I'm sorry if this is beyond your comprehension or if you're still salty about the cookie comment but don't act like you actually did anything.

Your the one who sounds salty. Now lets stop this stupid argument about puff because SHE IS BOTTOM 3 END OF STORY. You are one of many people, and even holy Wintermelon agrees with me. So lets just stop. And also, the fact that you bring up th e cookie thing means your out of options.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Jigglypuff is a lot of things, but big isn't one of them. She can duck under damn near most projectiles in the game and a lot of physical attacks. A so-called "Jigglypuff arguer" should know that.

Your point is? I never said they weren't.

Yeah, when you're ducking. Not the entire time.

Your the one who sounds salty. Now lets stop this stupid argument about puff because SHE IS BOTTOM 3 END OF STORY. You are one of many people, and even holy Wintermelon agrees with me. So lets just stop. And also, the fact that you bring up th e cookie thing means your out of options.

I don't think she's bottom three, but she is low tier, maybe 8th-6th from bottom

But yeah, MarioMeteor don't try to keep argueing when you've lost ideas. When people derail this thread, Browny shadowbans them, which means he doesn't count your votes without you knowing this. You've derailed the thread, so you're probably shadowbanned or close to it. Stop and you have the chance to keep voting.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Are you kidding me? Were my 2 separate lists not enough evidence for you? All you did was make a couple snappy one-liner filled rebuttals to my lists without any actual evidence or reasoning.

You are really bad at debating, my friend. I think we really need to move on from this whole thing. You've made your decision. The rest of the people in this thread have made theirs.

Ooh, you can make lists. Am I supposed to be impressed? Ever heard the phrase "quantity over quality?"

Your the one who sounds salty. Now lets stop this stupid argument about puff because SHE IS BOTTOM 3 END OF STORY. You are one of many people, and even holy Wintermelon agrees with me. So lets just stop. And also, the fact that you bring up th e cookie thing means your out of options.

You know, saying you're not salty and then proceeding to use Caps Lock doesn't make you look very smart.

Yeah, when you're ducking. Not the entire time.


I don't think she's bottom three, but she is low tier, maybe 8th-6th from bottom

But yeah, MarioMeteor don't try to keep argueing when you've lost ideas. When people derail this thread, Browny shadowbans them, which means he doesn't count your votes without you knowing this. You've derailed the thread, so you're probably shadowbanned or close to it. Stop and you have the chance to keep voting.

Really, it's not derailing. The topic is Jigglypuff's place on the tier list. Even if he did "shadowban" me, it's nothing I'll lose sleep over. It wasn't even me that derailed it, it was our friend Xandercosm.

 

[LRodC]

Let me get into my perspective on Jigglypuff.

In my opinion, Jigglypuff suffers the same issue that Captain Falcon does in Brawl, where the moveset idea isn't terrible, but they're thrown into the wrong engine.

Jigglypuff had the same poor specials in Melee too aside from Pound and Rest, and she was high tier in that game. Why? Because there were game engine choices that benefitted her way more than the ones in Smash 4. Air dodges were limited to one per character which means she could easily abuse her forward air and chain aerials into each other without having to worry about infinite air dodges. Compared to the characters in Melee, she had a better recovery relative to the rest of the cast, especially versus the top tiers who weren't always gifted in that department, like Falco. In Brawl and Smash 4, her recovery did not change much and a lot of others had theirs improved, which means that special niche wasn't so special anymore.

Smash 4 also has improved shields compared to Melee. This makes Jigglypuff's moves unsafe on block compared to Melee where she was comparatively more safe. Her bad throw game is also exposed because they're more important in Smash 4 to beat shields.

Rest, as we probably all know, was completely ridiculous in Melee. However, if Melee Jigglypuff had Smash 4's Rest (which is still powerful, but not ridiculous), I think she would still be a functioning and well placed character due to the physics of Melee and how the game worked. If Smash 4 Jigglypuff had Melee Jigglypuff's Rest, then she would just be a poorly designed character in an engine that does not suit her with one ridiculous move.

Now, I'm not saying that Smash 4 Jigglypuff is impossible to win with. She, along with every other character in the game, has positive traits. Good aerial game, recovery, Rest, etc. However, I think a lot of her positives are now outclassed by other characters in the roster, and she doesn't really have a niche anymore. Basically, why use Jigglypuff as a fast aerial fighter when you could use Yoshi? Why rely on Jigglypuff's Rest when you could use Cloud's much less risky Finishing Touch? Hell, even if you wanted to go with a gimmicky Sing into Rest strategy, you know who does the whole stun and hit with a strong move gimmick better? Both Bayonetta and Mewtwo.

Basically, I think Jigglypuff is just a sad case of a character being trapped in an engine they cannot perform well in as well as lacking any sort of niche that warrants her being used over almost any other character. This lack of niches is why I personally think she's the worst character in the game (I don't count Miis because they're arbitrarily being restricted to 1111, but that's an argument for another day).

 

[Wintermelon43]

Let's just ignore that last post to prevemt further derailments

 

[Deleted member]

Let me get into my perspective on Jigglypuff.

In my opinion, Jigglypuff suffers the same issue that Captain Falcon does in Brawl, where the moveset idea isn't terrible, but they're thrown into the wrong engine.

Jigglypuff had the same poor specials in Melee too aside from Pound and Rest, and she was high tier in that game. Why? Because there were game engine choices that benefitted her way more than the ones in Smash 4. Air dodges were limited to one per character which means she could easily abuse her forward air and chain aerials into each other without having to worry about infinite air dodges. Compared to the characters in Melee, she had a better recovery relative to the rest of the cast, especially versus the top tiers who weren't always gifted in that department, like Falco. In Brawl and Smash 4, her recovery did not change much and a lot of others had theirs improved, which means that special niche wasn't so special anymore.

Smash 4 also has improved shields compared to Melee. This makes Jigglypuff's moves unsafe on block compared to Melee where she was comparatively more safe.

Rest, as we probably all know, was completely ridiculous in Melee. However, if Melee Jigglypuff had Smash 4's Rest (which is still powerful, but not ridiculous), I think she would still be a functioning and well placed character due to the physics of Melee and how the game worked. If Smash 4 Jigglypuff had Melee Jigglypuff's Rest, then she would just be a poorly designed character in an engine that does not suit her with one ridiculous move.

Now, I'm not saying that Smash 4 Jigglypuff is impossible to win with. She, along with every other character in the game, has positive traits. Good aerial game, recovery, Rest, etc. However, I think a lot of her positives are now outclassed by other characters in the roster, and she doesn't really have a niche anymore. Basically, why use Jigglypuff as a fast aerial fighter when you could use Yoshi? Why rely on Jigglypuff's Rest when you could use Cloud's much less risky Finishing Touch? Hell, even if you wanted to go with a gimmicky Sing into Rest strategy, you know who does the whole stun and hit with a strong move gimmick better? Both Bayonetta and Mewtwo.

Basically, I think Jigglypuff is just a sad case of a character being trapped in an engine they cannot perform well in as well as lacking any sort of niche that warrants her being used over almost any other character. This lack of niches is why I personally think she's the worst character in the game (I don't count Miis because they're arbitrarily being restricted to 1111, but that's an argument for another day).

Completely on point, especially with the Captain Falcon in Brawl comparison. Most of her issues lie with the engine screwing her over, the main reason she was also a bottom tier in Brawl was because of her adapting terribly to the game's new physics and various changes, most of which carried over to Smash 4. So basically, she's still stuck in the same position as she was eight years ago.

Jigglypuff's biggest flaw as a character is that... she's just not threatening. She has nothing worthwhile against shield, most of her specials are poor, she has terrible reach and has significant trouble getting KOs due to all her killing options being laggy, and even her main gimmick as a character: her air game and air mobility, is far outclassed by other characters. Looking at characters like practically proves this.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Tbh, i never thought this forum would be derailed because of jigglypuff im ngl.

 

[Yoshister]

Tbh, i never thought this forum would be derailed because of jigglypuff im ngl.

Neither did I.

I figured that Pikachu down vote last page would've sparked some controversy.

I'd add my two cents the Jigglytrash arguement, but me and MarioMeteor already argued over it.

It was like talking to a brick wall that insulted you.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Neither did I.

I figured that Pikachu down vote last page would've sparked some controversy.

I'd add my two cents the Jigglytrash arguement, but me and MarioMeteor already argued over it.

It was like talking to a brick wall that insulted you.

No one caree about it since he only had one up vote and has no chance of going up by this point. Same with Ness and Diddy Kong. and Villager has no votes

 

[Deleted member]

..Can we just get back to voting? Please?

 

[Furret24]

Jigglypuff's aierals game is better than Mr. Game & Watch

I beg to differ. Game and Watch's air game has all of the strengths of Puff's (though is slightly worse in air speed), with more. He has more range, more disjoint, longer lasting hitboxes, and faster startup, cooldown, and landing lag. His aerials are also more versatile. His offstage is better, along with edgeguarding. His specials are also more useful in the air (and in general).

 

[TMNTSSB4]

..Can we just get back to voting? Please?

NO...jk let's do it.

 

[Robertos0511]

I'm just gonna share my knowledge on the characters I've been playing lately.

My votes + What tier I think they should be:
+1 Tier 1-3. Currently a solid tier 3 or even tier 2, potential for tier 1 as the meta evolves.
+1 Tier 2-3. Leaning towards 3 for now
+1 Tier 3. Easy to learn so I don't imagine we'll be seeing much surprises here. Looks like Corrin's potential has already been discovered and it's looking like tier 3.
-1 Low Tier. She's a pound shop Marth, and Marth isn't even that good in this game. Potentially in the same tier as Marth, and almost certainly a tier lower than Roy.
-1 Bottom Tier. I don't feel this needs explaining.

Other thoughts:
and are where I believe they should be, in tier 4.
-1 would be my 6th vote if I had one. Should be in the tier below Roy, and in the same tier as or a tier above Lucina.

 

[atreyujames]

To begin with, I'm just gonna vote for top 3 and bottom 2 characters imo

+
+
+
-
-

Whether you disagree with Pikachu or Jigglypuff, really at this point its so early it doesn't matter. At least I'm sure we can all agree on my other 3.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

It is not 1 vote thing per page, it is one vote session per voting session. Sorry Furret

 

[Furret24]

It is not 1 vote thing per page, it is one vote session per voting session. Sorry Furret

I can wait until then.

 

[Deleted member]

-
-
+
+
+

 

[Xandercosm]

Other thoughts:
and are where I believe they should be, in tier 4.

Can you explain why you think Shulk should be tier 4? I think his frame data alone makes him much lower than that. In my opinion wherever Marth is in the list, I think Shulk should be at a least a few places lower.

 

[Shisui-kun]

-1
+1
+1
+1
-1

 

[Yoshister]

-1
+1
+1
+1
-1

Why are you bringing down Ness?!

 

[TMNTSSB4]

-1
+1
+1
+1
-1

Ness and Corrin...why?

 

[Browny]

Hate to knock you off your high horse, but what you consider to be true and what is actually true are obviously two very different things, so you can keep your considerations to yourself because I stand by my vote.

I am trying to imply that. I don't know why you just came up with some arbitrary characters to list out but I do happen to consider her below all 3 of them. She's the worst character in the game and wether or not she's your secondary doesn't change that.

Browny could you help us explain the "no countervotes" thing, please? I thought the countervote epidemic was driven into extinction a long time ago but I guess it adapted to our vaccines.

My stand in this subject is this:

You can vote anyway you want, but if you make a uncommon or very odd vote... Well you gotta have dem reasons. For example if I + vote let's say Ike that is all fine due to Ike being commonly agreed to be above mid tier, but if I happen to vote let's say Zelda with +... Well I have to have some reasons why I think she would be above average. Also if someone asks you to reason your vote... you gotta do it.

Also my english does suck, but so does Jiggly.

*insert Jiggly main's salt here*

To all of you;

Counter-voting isn't banned or anything, but it can skew peoples perceptions. I don't want people to vote against current trends, I want people to vote on the current version of the tier list. You shouldnt let what other people say affect your opinion.

Even if you know that a character is going to be heavily voted down but you think they should stay where they are, deliberately voting them up because you saw current trends can often be a waste of time. If a character gets voted down and you think they should be up, then vote them up next round. When the character moves because of popular opinion there is going to be far less people voting them down the next round.

I know it has its flaws but I don't like it when people deliberately counter vote because it rarely makes any difference at all, its usually like 2 votes trying to counter a -6 or something.

 

[IndigoSSB]

I'll get the ball rolling with the obvious ones.

- She's bottom 5, you guys are making a big deal out of a single up vote. You can't force opinions on people, but you don't have to tolerate them either.
+ Insert explanation here.
+ Insert explanation here.
+ Insert Dabuz here.
- Her down B doesn't turn her into a better character anymore.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I'm glad the Jiggs hate is back...makes up more arguments

 

[Deleted member 269706]

+
+
+
-
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Just wanna say I actively play all of these characters and think that this is where they should be relative to the center of the tier list.

 

[Ten-X Legacy]

+ Very high survivability. I've been 200%+ on my first stock, quite a lot. It's honestly hilarious. Plus, Dededecide.
+ The neutral-B suspense/pressure. >:3 Also, bombs, aerials, and Up-B out of shield.
+ In the right hands (and at a high percent), he can be devastating...
+ Just my opinion, he's a glass cannon, use him cautiously, and you shall be rewarded.
+ His smashes got buffed. I will be playing as him a lot more now.
(Although I only ever use or )

 

[Bowserboy3]

I figured that Pikachu down vote last page would've sparked some controversy.

Oh you...

I'm just gonna share my knowledge on the characters I've been playing lately.
-1 Low Tier. She's a pound shop Marth, and Marth isn't even that good in this game. Potentially in the same tier as Marth, and almost certainly a tier lower than Roy.

Other thoughts:
and are where I believe they should be, in tier 4.
-1 would be my 6th vote if I had one. Should be in the tier below Roy, and in the same tier as or a tier above Lucina.

What patch have you been playing, 1.0.4? Lucina really isn't that bad, at all, especially after the 1.1.4 buffs she got (shared with Marth).

What tops this off is that you still say that Roy is better than Marth. There is no way that Roy is considerably better than Marth any more at all. Roy lacks safety, something Marth has bucket loads of when spaced correctly. Marth is at least on par with Roy, if not slightly better, but that's by the by. You are entitled to your opinion, so whatever.

+ Very high survivability. I've been 200%+ on my first stock, quite a lot. It's honestly hilarious. Plus, Dededecide.
+ The neutral-B suspense/pressure. >:3 Also, bombs, aerials, and Up-B out of shield.

You... I like you.

But in case he didn't see it already, @Feelicks might be able to give you some insight into Dedede.

One final thing. Browny , how does the voting process work again? Is it still +5 to move up and -3 to move down?

 

[Shisui-kun]

Ness and Corrin...why?

Ness because he is falling out of meta and other characters having more options, people learning how to gimp him alot better etc.
Corrin because I personally found him/her overrated in the sense of how many things you can expand with the character in terms of mix ups.

Ryu because I personally think he should atleast be top 5, pika due to his matchup chart becoming better and Cloud due to M2k.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Ness because he is falling out of meta and other characters having more options, people learning how to gimp him alot better etc.
Corrin because I personally found him/her overrated in the sense of how many things you can expand with the character in terms of mix ups.

Ryu because I personally think he should atleast be top 5, pika due to his matchup chart becoming better and Cloud due to M2k.

Ness's current score is 0 though. And, if this works like last time, you'll need three up votes to go up.

Edit:Also, if this works like last time, voting down Jigglypuff now is useless since she already has -10

 

[Deleted member]

Ness because he is falling out of meta and other characters having more options, people learning how to gimp him alot better etc.
Corrin because I personally found him/her overrated in the sense of how many things you can expand with the character in terms of mix ups.

Ryu because I personally think he should atleast be top 5, pika due to his matchup chart becoming better and Cloud due to M2k.

Ness is not falling out of the meta. If that were the case, FOW wouldn't have got 5th place at Genesis 3, a tournament of over 1,000 attendees that took place just last month. The competition there was rough and it was the most stacked Sm4sh tourney for many reasons, so I disagree with him being irrelevant as time passes. Yes, he does have a more simplistic gameplan compared to the other high tiers. Yes, his recovery is gimpable. This doesn't ultimately matter because he's an effective character overall with really good traits that overpower what weaknesses were detrimental to him in past games. Hell, people who use the "Ness dropped in every Smash tier list" excuse are wrong. It happened in 64 in Melee, but Ness started out as a bottom tier character in Brawl then gradually rose to low-mid thanks to Shaky's great results with him at nationals.

People need to stop ranking Corrin and Bayo already (and I disagree with them being available to vote on now, but I just gotta deal) and where they'll be in the meta because it hasn't even been a full week since these characters have been out. Nobody is using these characters optimally.

 

[Bowserboy3]

People need to stop ranking Corrin and Bayo already (and I disagree with them being available to vote on now, but I just gotta deal) and where they'll be in the meta because it hasn't even been a full week since these characters have been out. Nobody is using these characters optimally.

I think it's fair enough for people to vote them. It's quite clear that they are above mid tier (or at least Bayonetta is, can't speak as well for Corrin, I don't play him), so any up votes for them would be fine. However, people coming out with bold statements such as them being in tier 1 or top 10 this soon into their lifespan is kinda odd. I have no problem with them being voted up because they are clearly better than mid tier. How much better, only time will tell though.