Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

Bowserboy3 · Mar 3, 2016

My opinion on Corrin is this: He's a solid character, with good combo options and good finishers. However, I feel that Corrin suffers from predictability. Almost every Corrin I have fought does the same thing, and he doesn't have much of an area for mix up. What harms Corrin in this area is his air movement. I can't remember the correct term for it, but it's the ability to change directions in the air. Corrin is a lot like Ryu (similar, though not as extreme), in the fact the he struggles to turn back midair. I find this means that when Corrin is going for an aerial approach or combo, he commits to it. He can't for example jump forward and fade back to bait a reaction as a mix up. Back to predictability, only Corrin's Fair autocancels in a SH, and this gives him a predictable aerial approach

Corrin does have some pretty bad moves too. Dash Attack is so easy to punish on shield. It's a move where if you shield the first hit, and drop shield in the multi hit part, you will stay in shield due to shield stun, but as soon as the move stops, your shield will drop, and Corrin will be in lag for you to punish him. I find his Ftilt pretty redundant too. It launches at a decent angle, but Dtilt is faster and launches at near enough the same angle. And if you are at mid range distance to Corrin, the only move he can do to hit you is Fsmash, so back to predictability, you know it's coming. Of course, Corrin's throws are pretty bad. Two of them can kill, but DI does hamper them quite a lot (in a similar way to Charizard's Uthrow, though Corrin's throws are nowhere near as powerful as that), and none of them combo at all. Up Smash also gets a notable mention due to it's pitiful range and poor sweetspot placement that makes it virtually useless on grounded opponents for killing. Even Marth's sourspot Up Smash is better than that (in both range and power).

Luckily, Corrin does have such a good set of combo options and ways to safely finish stocks, that these make up for the shortcomings. However, a good player can still expose these shortcoming, and in a similar vein to Bayonetta, I find he struggles against shielding.

TL:DR - Corrin's a good character. He's above mid tier at least, but certainly not a high tier.

Deleted member · Mar 3, 2016

Him not having combo throws isn't a huge hindrance when utilt and dtilt are such good combo starters anyway, and most of his moves send at a vertical direction that makes it easy for Corrin to capitalize on it.

Also, people underestimate how good wavebounced/B-reversed Dragon Fang Shot is. The move is capable of mixups since you can immediately do the bite instead of charging the projectile.

Vapo · Mar 3, 2016

+

I think Tier 4 is the right place for him, but people keep voting him down... sure, he has no results, but he has great kill power, arguably the best regular counter, a nice combo and mixup game and some cool movement tech.
-

People are overhyping him a bit too much. The Mew^2 vs M2K set changed my opinion on Mewtwo like with a lot of you, but from low tier to mid tier. Above mid tier is a bit much for him...
-

I don't see him above mid...sure, he has combos and kill setups, but he's massive combo food, lacks a good way to deal with projectiles and has a horrible vertical recovery.
+

He's not Tier 4...
-

What's with all the upvote craze with this guy?

IndigoSSB · Mar 3, 2016

Wintermelon43 said:
Yea, like a lot of Corrin's moves are bad, his jab, dash attack, some of his aierals, I'm pretty sure most of his tilts, and throws are bad.

If you're not sure your information is correct then please don't spread it around. This isn't an opinion, it's just misinformation. Corrin has very few "bad" moves.

-Literally has one bad aerial: dair. Even then it's useful as a mixup because of its TL dair properties.
-Jab is on the lower spectrum of jabs at frame 5, but it's usable. I'll give you that one.
-Dash attack does up to 13 damage and can be used to read rolls.
-His uptilt and dtilt combo, nuff said.
-He has a kill throw. I'm sure that makes up for not having a combo out of grab.

He has a diverse arsenal specializing in disjoints leading into strings.
(Not meant to attack your post btw, I'm trying to clear the air on misconceptions people seem to be having).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bottomline Corrin's right where I think he should be right now, in tier 4 right below the established high tiers. Cloud and Bayonetta will move up to high tier (I hope) and tier 4 will be populated by guys like Falcon, Rob, Yoshi etc.

Dusk Pit · Mar 4, 2016

+ Link
+ Bayonetta
+ R.O.B
- Marth
- Duck Hunt

Bowserboy3 · Mar 4, 2016

Dusk Pit said:
+ Link
+ Bayonetta
+ R.O.B
- Marth
- Duck Hunt

Votes Link up yet votes Marth down...

Explain to me please, does not compute.

(I just want to explain, this is not main bias at all, nor am I saying you can't up vote Link, but just, what makes you think Link is better than Marth?)

GerMoj · Mar 4, 2016

Pikachu +1
Diddy -1
Sonic -1
Marth +1
Pacman -1

Dusk Pit · Mar 4, 2016

Bowserboy3 said:
Votes Link up yet votes Marth down...

Explain to me please, does not compute.

(I just want to explain, this is not main bias at all, nor am I saying you can't up vote Link, but just, what makes you think Link is better than Marth?)

Let me explain:
I never said that Marth is better than Link but actually now that i think about it, he actually might be but comparing them was not my main reason for the votes. To me, it makes no sense that if Toon Link is way up there, how come Link isn't. I know Toon link is better but that gap between them is ridiculous. They are pretty much capable of same things. Great projectiles/zonings, bombs combo into stuff, they rack up damage quick kill early, force people to approach, etc...

That's pretty much the reason why I down voted Marth because that's where Roy is. I mean what makes Marth so much better than Roy? Tipper?

Deleted member · Mar 4, 2016

Dusk Pit said:
Let me explain:
I never said that Marth is better than Link but actually now that i think about it, he actually might be but comparing them was not my main reason for the votes. To me, it makes no sense that if Toon Link is way up there, how come Link isn't. I know Toon link is better but that gap between them is ridiculous. They are pretty much capable of same things. Great projectiles/zonings, bombs combo into stuff, they rack up damage quick kill early, force people to approach, etc...

That's pretty much the reason why I down voted Marth because that's where Roy is. I mean what makes Marth so much better than Roy? Tipper?

Marth has an actual defense, a better neutral and better range than Roy. Marth also at least has results and a decent playerbase unlike Roy, who has done absolutely done nothing of worth ever since he was released.

Link is lower than Toon Link because of his sluggish mobility, frame data, poor close combat options and being combo food due to having a tall frame and being a heavyweight. What relevant characters does Link even beat? DK?

Bowserboy3 · Mar 4, 2016

Dusk Pit said:
Let me explain:
I never said that Marth is better than Link but actually now that i think about it, he actually might be but comparing them was not my main reason for the votes. To me, it makes no sense that if Toon Link is way up there, how come Link isn't. I know Toon link is better but that gap between them is ridiculous. They are pretty much capable of same things. Great projectiles/zonings, bombs combo into stuff, they rack up damage quick kill early, force people to approach, etc...

That's pretty much the reason why I down voted Marth because that's where Roy is. I mean what makes Marth so much better than Roy? Tipper?

Even if you didn't outright say you thought that Link could be better than Marth, voting Link up and Marth down when they are both in the same tier very much implicates that thought.

To go Link and Toon Link, Link is lower lots of reasons. Yeah, though Toon Link is higher, the distance is there for a reason. Link and Toon Link can do similar things and have similar tools, but Toon Link does things much better. If we take your theory, Doc and Mario ought to be closer, because Doc has almost all the same tools in neutral as Mario, a good projectile, combos etc, right? Wrong. Doc is lower than Mario because of his weaker combo game, weaker recovery, and being more sluggish than Mario. It's for almost the exact reasons Link is much lower than Toon Link. Link has limited combo potential, and his bombs don't launch at the same angle as Toon Link, and also deal more knockback, hindering combo ability, where Toon Link can Bomb into a kill move at nearly any percent. Toon Link's boomerang is outright better in most situations. Link's may get the odd positional advantage here and there, but Toon Link's again, has more combo potential, and as it has a hitbox out on return, is much safer, and can break combos on return, helping relieve pressure. Aside from more reach and a bit more power on a few moves, Link doesn't really have much over Toon Link. Toon Link has better mobility, less laggy, combo options, safer/quicker kill options, kill confirms, harder to combo him, and one of the best kill throws in the game. Fun fact; Toon Link's Fsmash is more powerful than Link's and connects better. Though Link recently got a good result, Toon Link has gotten great results on a higher stage.

All this isn't to say Link is bad though. He's still competent and has advantages in certain matchups Toon Link struggles with, mostly due to his better reach and relative power. Link certainly isn't any better than the mid tier he is currently in, at all. I'd even argue that he should be a bit lower, but whatever. Point is, he shouldn't be up any higher than he is now. I can understand if you are basing your opinions off of a For Glory scenario; these two characters on For Glory are cancer, as the lag makes shielding projectiles and attempting to dodge them a whole lot harder.

To go into Marth, @Feelicks basically summed it up. Marth is higher than Roy because he is just a lot safer. Marth can do safe, and defence. Roy cannot. Marth has more range than Roy. Marth's sweetspot placement is a better because you will be further away from your opponent (going back to safety, it's harder to punish Marth than Roy). Marth's tipper is also more powerful than Roy's sweetspot, but this is balanced out by Roy's sweetspot being a bit easier to land and Roy's moves in general being laggier/less safe. Marth can use his sourspot effectively too. A sourspot move by Marth can still kill earlier than Roy's, and he can even use them to combo. Roy cannot use his sourspot at all, for killing or combos, so it's just a hinderance. And some of Roy's sweetspots are pitifully weak considering you have to space them. Nair and Uair get mentions here. Uair is weak on damage for a sweetspot (for comparison, Marth's sourspot deals more damage than Roy's sweetspot on Uair), and doesn't kill early like you'd expect it too. Roy's Nair to be totally honest is good for stringing together at low percents, but in terms of killing even Lucina's Nair kills EARLIER than Roy's, and she doesn't need to space to get power from it (for the record, Marth's sweetspot Nair is more powerful than Lucina's, and is also the most powerful Nair in the game). Marth and Roy both have different combo games. Roy is better at starting combos off of a rush down, and Marth is better at starting combos off of a punish. Marth is also far superior at juggling and much much better off stage, with a better recovery to boot. Marth in general is just much better than Roy, and results/playerbases show. Marth has gotten results, Roy has none. And the amount of players that have picked Marth up after 1.1.4 is insane (people like False, AceStarthe3rd, ZeRo explaining interest in Marth now, and even Marth mains like Mr E and Pugwest starting to get better results), compared to Roy, who still has nobody relevant repping him and no results to show for. In short, Roy is still a good character, with great easy to use power, and a solid combo game at lower percents. However, in a tournament environment where safety and ability to punish/approach safely are a must, Marth excels much much more than Roy in this respect, which is why not many people pick Roy over Marth.

Dee-SmashinBoss · Mar 4, 2016

Um links bombs explode faster, so they are better for recovering, and tinks recovery is still nearly just as easy to edguard, plus Link edge guards better and has a better (at lower percents mainly) grab and throw game, which tink wishes he had.

Tinks frame data still isn't that great(better then links I think, but not anything really significant) he still has poor cqc options himself and his combos are sorta limited without bombs(which he can utilize better then link).

Link some some good things that Tink doesn't have, and the other way around.
I'm not saying Tink is worse it's just that link is definitely not inferior.

Deleted member · Mar 4, 2016

Dee-SmashinBoss said:
Um links bombs explode faster, so they are better for recovering, and tinks recovery is still nearly just as easy to edguard, plus Link edge guards better and has a better (at lower percents mainly) grab and throw game, which tink wishes he had.

Tinks frame data still isn't that great(better then links I think, but not anything really significant) he still has poor cqc options himself and his combos are sorta limited without bombs(which he can utilize better then link).

Link some some good things that Tink doesn't have, and the other way around.
I'm not saying Tink is worse it's just that link is definitely not inferior.

Link simply does not fit in a meta where the characters most bound to succeed are ones with good mobility and burst movement options. Toon Link is faster, floatier and has a much smaller hurtbox so he's far less susceptible to combos, while making his combo ability far more threatening than Link's. His frame data definitely is better than Link's on a lot of moves, particularly up tilt and up smash. He's just as effective at zoning at Link is while having overall better stats: I fail to see how Link is superior to him. KO power and reach doesn't matter when you get bodied close-up and have such slow moves. Just look at

!

Bowserboy3 · Mar 4, 2016

Dee-SmashinBoss said:
Um links bombs explode faster, so they are better for recovering, and tinks recovery is still nearly just as easy to edguard, plus Link edge guards better and has a better (at lower percents mainly) grab and throw game, which tink wishes he had.

Tinks frame data still isn't that great(better then links I think, but not anything really significant) he still has poor cqc options himself and his combos are sorta limited without bombs(which he can utilize better then link).

Link some some good things that Tink doesn't have, and the other way around.
I'm not saying Tink is worse it's just that link is definitely not inferior.

My bad on the bombs part, I was convinced it was the other way around, thanks for pointing that out.

However, Link is clearly much lower down than Toon Link. I won't use the phrase "worse than", because Link is still a decent character. I will say though he is "less effective" as Toon Link, due to all the positives Toon Link posesses. Though Link does have some positives over Toon Link, Toon Link's are just much more effective/helpful in more situations. Though his frame data might not be that much better, the mobility and extra frames they provide are crucial to his success. Whatever way you look at it, Bombs and Boomerang are the crux of their gameplay, and with Toon Links being noticeably superior, it's clear who is the better character.

TL:DR - Link isn't bad, but is noticeably less effective than Toon Link.

Dusk Pit · Mar 4, 2016

Bowserboy3 said:
Even if you didn't outright say you thought that Link could be better than Marth, voting Link up and Marth down when they are both in the same tier very much implicates that thought.

To go Link and Toon Link, Link is lower lots of reasons. Yeah, though Toon Link is higher, the distance is there for a reason. Link and Toon Link can do similar things and have similar tools, but Toon Link does things much better. If we take your theory, Doc and Mario ought to be closer, because Doc has almost all the same tools in neutral as Mario, a good projectile, combos etc, right? Wrong. Doc is lower than Mario because of his weaker combo game, weaker recovery, and being more sluggish than Mario. It's for almost the exact reasons Link is much lower than Toon Link. Link has limited combo potential, and his bombs don't launch at the same angle as Toon Link, and also deal more knockback, hindering combo ability, where Toon Link can Bomb into a kill move at nearly any percent. Toon Link's boomerang is outright better in most situations. Link's may get the odd positional advantage here and there, but Toon Link's again, has more combo potential, and as it has a hitbox out on return, is much safer, and can break combos on return, helping relieve pressure. Aside from more reach and a bit more power on a few moves, Link doesn't really have much over Toon Link. Toon Link has better mobility, less laggy, combo options, safer/quicker kill options, kill confirms, harder to combo him, and one of the best kill throws in the game. Fun fact; Toon Link's Fsmash is more powerful than Link's and connects better. Though Link recently got a good result, Toon Link has gotten great results on a higher stage.

All this isn't to say Link is bad though. He's still competent and has advantages in certain matchups Toon Link struggles with, mostly due to his better reach and relative power. Link certainly isn't any better than the mid tier he is currently in, at all. I'd even argue that he should be a bit lower, but whatever. Point is, he shouldn't be up any higher than he is now. I can understand if you are basing your opinions off of a For Glory scenario; these two characters on For Glory are cancer, as the lag makes shielding projectiles and attempting to dodge them a whole lot harder.

To go into Marth, @Feelicks basically summed it up. Marth is higher than Roy because he is just a lot safer. Marth can do safe, and defence. Roy cannot. Marth has more range than Roy. Marth's sweetspot placement is a better because you will be further away from your opponent (going back to safety, it's harder to punish Marth than Roy). Marth's tipper is also more powerful than Roy's sweetspot, but this is balanced out by Roy's sweetspot being a bit easier to land and Roy's moves in general being laggier/less safe. Marth can use his sourspot effectively too. A sourspot move by Marth can still kill earlier than Roy's, and he can even use them to combo. Roy cannot use his sourspot at all, for killing or combos, so it's just a hinderance. And some of Roy's sweetspots are pitifully weak considering you have to space them. Nair and Uair get mentions here. Uair is weak on damage for a sweetspot (for comparison, Marth's sourspot deals more damage than Roy's sweetspot on Uair), and doesn't kill early like you'd expect it too. Roy's Nair to be totally honest is good for stringing together at low percents, but in terms of killing even Lucina's Nair kills EARLIER than Roy's, and she doesn't need to space to get power from it (for the record, Marth's sweetspot Nair is more powerful than Lucina's, and is also the most powerful Nair in the game). Marth and Roy both have different combo games. Roy is better at starting combos off of a rush down, and Marth is better at starting combos off of a punish. Marth is also far superior at juggling and much much better off stage, with a better recovery to boot. Marth in general is just much better than Roy, and results/playerbases show. Marth has gotten results, Roy has none. And the amount of players that have picked Marth up after 1.1.4 is insane (people like False, AceStarthe3rd, ZeRo explaining interest in Marth now, and even Marth mains like Mr E and Pugwest starting to get better results), compared to Roy, who still has nobody relevant repping him and no results to show for. In short, Roy is still a good character, with great easy to use power, and a solid combo game at lower percents. However, in a tournament environment where safety and ability to punish/approach safely are a must, Marth excels much much more than Roy in this respect, which is why not many people pick Roy over Marth.

While I do agree that Toon Link is better than Link but it is starting to seem that people think as if Link was trash and that is not true. While you mostly listed what Toon Link has over Link, I could also list what Link has over ToonLink but I don't think it's necessary at this point. The point is that the gap between them is too big. Link is still a very good character but the overall concensus is apparently that he is bad and Toon Link is good. I don't know which MU Link loses but Toon Link doesn't except for maybe MK or Sheik.

And then There is left the Marth vs Roy thing. Maybe there is a little bit bias to be seen? You only say what Marth can do and what Roy can't. Roy has superior speed both in the air and on ground and wasn't mobility a thing in Links' case and range not so much? Roy also has less landing lag which makes short hop aerials safer. Now I don't play either of these character but fighting against a good Roy feels much threatening than fighting a good Marth.
I personaly think Roy is a little bit better than Marth.

Bowserboy3 · Mar 4, 2016

Dusk Pit said:
While I do agree that Toon Link is better than Link but it is starting to seem that people think as if Link was trash and that is not true. While you mostly listed what Toon Link has over Link, I could also list what Link has over ToonLink but I don't think it's necessary at this point. The point is that the gap between them is too big. Link is still a very good character but the overall concensus is apparently that he is bad and Toon Link is good. I don't know which MU Link loses but Toon Link doesn't except for maybe MK or Sheik.

And then There is left the Marth vs Roy thing. Maybe there is a little bit bias to be seen? You only say what Marth can do and what Roy can't. Roy has superior speed both in the air and on ground and wasn't mobility a thing in Links' case and range not so much? Roy also has less landing lag which makes short hop aerials safer. Now I don't play either of these character but fighting against a good Roy feels much threatening than fighting a good Marth.
I personaly think Roy is a little bit better than Marth.

"Roy also has less landing lag which makes short hop aerials safer". This statement just about sums it up. Roy's aerials have less landing lag, yes (albeit, like, 1 frame). However, they are still far less safe than Marth's because Marth can auto cancel his, and Roy cannot. Tie this in with the fact that Roy will be on top of a character and Marth won't be, he'll be at a distance, and you've got a set of unsafe aerials.

I listed only Marth's positives because I don't want to risk theory crafting for Roy; I main Marth so I know far much more about Marth than Roy. But here's the thing... for every positive Roy has, there's a negative attached to it too. For example, Roy has great mobility and great air movement, but has a slew of unsafe moves and get's combo'd very easily thanks to his weight and fall speed. It's different for Link and Toon Link for example, where Toon Link is quicker, but has safe moves to complement this. Back to Roy, he has an absurdly powerful sweetspot for how easy it is to space, but due to the nature of it's spacing and his general lag, his moves are very unsafe. Roy's aerials are strong when sweetspotted and disjointed making them seemingly great edgeguarding tools, but Roy's fall speed and poor recovery ability totally destroy this theory. Roy's sweetspot is useful but the sourspot is useless (outside of a missed tech Bair lock). Roy has good combo ability but has no safe killing options, or kill confirms to safely net the kill.

On the other side, Marth's strengths and weakness's aren't really connected in the same way, and Marth doesn't suffer from the same problems than Roy. They both excel in different matchups, but a competent Marth is a lot scarier than a competent Roy, and that's due to the fact of how unsafe Roy is. And you can't lie with the results and representation. Roy has done next to nothing since release, and Marth keeps getting more players, and has gotten results, ones that have only become better as time went on.

Dusk Pit · Mar 4, 2016

Bowserboy3 said:
"Roy also has less landing lag which makes short hop aerials safer". This statement just about sums it up. Roy's aerials have less landing lag, yes. However, they are still far less safe than Marth's because Marth can auto cancel his, and Roy cannot. Tie this in with the fact that Roy will be on top of a character and Marth won't be, and you've got a set of unsafe aerials.

I listed only Marth's positives because I don't want to risk theory crafting for Roy; I main Marth so I know far much more about Marth than Roy. But here's the thing... for every positive Roy has, there's a negative attached to it too. For example, Roy has great mobility and great air movement, but has a slew of unsafe moves and get's combo'd very easily thanks to his weight and fall speed. It's different for Link and Toon Link for example, where Toon Link is quicker, but has safe moves to complement this. Back to Roy, he has an absurdly powerful sweetspot for how easy it is to space, but due to the nature of it's spacing and his general lag, his moves are very unsafe. Roy's aerials are strong when sweetspotted and disjointed making them seemingly great edgeguarding tools, but Roy's fall speed and poor recovery ability totally destroy this theory. Roy's sweetspot is useful but the sourspot is useless (outside of a missed tech Bair lock). Roy has good combo ability but has no safe killing options, or kill confirms to safely net the kill.

On the other side, Marth's strengths and weakness's aren't really connected in the same way, and Marth doesn't suffer from the same problems than Roy. They both excel in different matchups, but a competent Marth is a lot scarier than a competent Roy, and that's due to the fact of how unsafe Roy is. And you can't lie with the results and representation. Roy has done next to nothing since release, and Marth keeps getting more players, and has gotten results, ones that have only become better as time went on.

Fair enough if everything you say is true in practice as well. I'm only basing my opinions on my own experiences and what I see. I haven't played Roy myself even once and Marth only couple of times so I assume you know what you are talking about. I thought Marth's short hop aerials don't autocancel at least not like Pit's.

Bowserboy3 · Mar 4, 2016

Dusk Pit said:
Fair enough if everything you say is true in practice as well. I'm only basing my opinions on my own experiences and what I see. I haven't played Roy myself even once and Marth only couple of times so I assume you know what you are talking about. I thought Marth's short hop aerials don't autocancel at least not like Pit's.

Marth's Fair, Bair and Uair can autocancel in a short hop. Bair has the best AC frames, followed by Fair, then Uair, but they all auto cancel in a short hop. Nair and Dair don't auto cancel in a short hop. However, Nair only has 12 frames of landing lag and has extremely long reach, so when spaced at the tip or even close to the end of the sword in a SHFF, it's safe. Roy's Nair IIRC is safe at the end of the sword too, but it's pointless attempting that because you can get no follow ups off of the sourspot, and you need your other moves to be connecting up close anyway. For both Marth and Roy, you shouldn't be using Dair on stage anyway, and only Marth as an extreme mix up, so that not auto cancelling isn't too harmful.

Fair and Nair are Marth's most commonly used aerials, and his two safest. Retreating Fair gets a notable mention for being very safe in almost all occasions. But in general, the sweetspot of Marth's sword being further away from him makes most of Marths moves safer and less punishable than Roy's anyway. Roy's Neutral B is a nice move that is almost impossible to punish, but it's slow start up means that it's still not fantastic, nor a substitute for laggy aerials. It's a good baiting tool though when at mid range. Useful for testing the waters, seeing how the opponent reacts.

Deleted member · Mar 4, 2016

tfw I'm already impatient for the list to be updated.

Real talk though I'm seriously curious to see how this list will develop as time goes. Once we get around a well-rounded 8 tiers then we'd be good.

Dee-SmashinBoss · Mar 4, 2016

I meant Link isn't like, completely invalidated by Tink.
I know he's not nearly as good, but he has some nice and inTeresting things that Tink doesn't have.
Power and range aren't the only things.

Tink still has a few weaknesses of his own.

TMNTSSB4 · Mar 4, 2016

Feelicks said:
tfw I'm already impatient for the list to be updated.

Real talk though I'm seriously curious to see how this list will develop as time goes. Once we get around a well-rounded 8 tiers then we'd be good.

6 only

valakmtnsmash4 · Mar 4, 2016

Update plz

Deleted member 269706 · Mar 4, 2016

+

- Should go up to the next tier but be at the bottom of it
+

- Deserves to go up a tier or two
+

- I believe he's top 5
-

- Shouldn't be above Pika or Ryu IMO
-

- Around Ike/Pit/Yoshi level.

Dusk Pit said:
That's pretty much the reason why I down voted Marth because that's where Roy is. I mean what makes Marth so much better than Roy? Tipper?

Because Roy is an inherently bad character, especially when compared to Marth...Think about it, Roy's sweetspot of his sword is on the hilt of the blade whereas Marth's is on the tipper. When it comes to spacing, Roy can't space and hit hard at the same time, whereas that's exactly how Marth players. If Roy wants to kill or rack up a lot of damage, he has to disregard spacing which is very unsafe and probably result in him getting punished. If he spaces his attacks (which aren't even that ranged) he won't build up near as much damage and kill much later. Marth on the other hand can keep opponents away and get the best outcome from spacing his attacks. Marth is fundamentally a better character.

420quickscoper · Mar 4, 2016

Vapo said:
+ I think Tier 4 is the right place for him, but people keep voting him down... sure, he has no results, but he has great kill power, arguably the best regular counter, a nice combo and mixup game and some cool movement tech.
- People are overhyping him a bit too much. The Mew^2 vs M2K set changed my opinion on Mewtwo like with a lot of you, but from low tier to mid tier. Above mid tier is a bit much for him...
- I don't see him above mid...sure, he has combos and kill setups, but he's massive combo food, lacks a good way to deal with projectiles and has a horrible vertical recovery.
+He's not Tier 4...
-What's with all the upvote craze with this guy?

I don't think Corrin should go any higher honestly. He's a solid character, but to me? He's sort of overhyped. I understand he has people like Ryo, and the character is shown to be pretty good but I don't think he's THAT good.

A counter doesn't really mean so much. Like, really, counters aren't much of a threat in this game outside of Witch Time.
And, it could come in handy in some occasions, but it's a counter.

It might just be slight main bias, but looking at what Mewtwo's done after 1.1.3, I can pretty easily see him up where he is. To me, the Mew2King vs Mew^2 set didn't really change my opinion much.

I mean, that shows a lot, but what showed the most was LoF Blue taking a set off of Nairo.
So, LoF Blue vs Nairo, Mew2King vs Mew^2, P2P with Gibus winning a shockwave...
Combine that with the amount of people that's playing him right now...
Combine that with the massive amount of tools and good things about him...
Combine that with the fact that some of his negatives aren't as severe as it seems...

To me? He's in a pretty good spot.

I don't understand why so many people want him going down, honestly. Wario may confuse us, and we know he's a good character, but... Wario has had a pretty huge drop in results since Abadango dropped him quite a while ago.

Mewtwo has more results and, maybe even players than most of the characters below him.

So I don't really get it. I think he's a great character and in the future he'll take more notable wins off of top players in the future. His potential is already getting unlocked. Bless 1.1.3.

Do you need MORE?
Because I've got the whole package.
Like, for example, his forward air is one of the most abusable and is probably the second best forward air in the game...?
And he has a ton of other great moves?
Has great mobility?
Amazing combo game?
Great spacing game?
2 kill throws?
Really good neutral?
Has really good kill potential?
Amazing aerial set?
Great ground set?
Amazing edge guarding?
The ability to shut down most of the cast in neutral?
Great camping game with shadow ball?
Large range on tilt attacks?
Damage throw that does 13%?
Undoubtedly the best air dodge in the entire game?
Has the ability to avoid combos due to air dodge, teleport and how his light weight? I love how people say he's so easy to combo, but he really just isn't.

I'm not even exaggerating here, he has all this, and yet you and all the rest say he should go down.
I do understand his flaws, but with all THAT? Yeah, no. This is a pretty good placement.
I'm not overhyping this character.
I'm just explaining that he has many, many significant positive attributes.
I find it clear that they outweigh his 3 biggest negatives which are:

Somewhat Mediocre Frame Data, Bad Out of Shield game, and tall height.
Notice that I didn't mention light weight. It's not that much of a problem since Mewtwo can play very evasively and avoid many kill moves. Especially with the likes of his air dodge.

That's all I got to say. Again, this character's in the right spot to me.

Djmarcus44 · Mar 5, 2016

420quickscoper said:
I don't think Corrin should go any higher honestly. He's a solid character, but to me? He's sort of overhyped. I understand he has people like Ryo, and the character is shown to be pretty good but I don't think he's THAT good.

A counter doesn't really mean so much. Like, really, counters aren't much of a threat in this game outside of Witch Time.
And, it could come in handy in some occasions, but it's a counter.

It might just be slight main bias, but looking at what Mewtwo's done after 1.1.3, I can pretty easily see him up where he is. To me, the Mew2King vs Mew^2 set didn't really change my opinion much.

I mean, that shows a lot, but what showed the most was LoF Blue taking a set off of Nairo.
So, LoF Blue vs Nairo, Mew2King vs Mew^2, P2P with Gibus winning a shockwave...
Combine that with the amount of people that's playing him right now...
Combine that with the massive amount of tools and good things about him...
Combine that with the fact that some of his negatives aren't as severe as it seems...

To me? He's in a pretty good spot.

I don't understand why so many people want him going down, honestly. Wario may confuse us, and we know he's a good character, but... Wario has had a pretty huge drop in results since Abadango dropped him quite a while ago.

Mewtwo has more results and, maybe even players than most of the characters below him.

So I don't really get it. I think he's a great character and in the future he'll take more notable wins off of top players in the future. His potential is already getting unlocked. Bless 1.1.3.

Do you need MORE?
Because I've got the whole package.
Like, for example, his forward air is one of the most abusable and is probably the second best forward air in the game...?
And he has a ton of other great moves?
Has great mobility?
Amazing combo game?
Great spacing game?
2 kill throws?
Really good neutral?
Has really good kill potential?
Amazing aerial set?
Great ground set?
Amazing edge guarding?
The ability to shut down most of the cast in neutral?
Great camping game with shadow ball?
Large range on tilt attacks?
Damage throw that does 13%?
Undoubtedly the best air dodge in the entire game?
Has the ability to avoid combos due to air dodge, teleport and how his light weight? I love how people say he's so easy to combo, but he really just isn't.

I'm not even exaggerating here, he has all this, and yet you and all the rest say he should go down.
I do understand his flaws, but with all THAT? Yeah, no. This is a pretty good placement.
I'm not overhyping this character.
I'm just explaining that he has many, many significant positive attributes.
I find it clear that they outweigh his 3 biggest negatives which are:

Somewhat Mediocre Frame Data, Bad Out of Shield game, and tall height.
Notice that I didn't mention light weight. It's not that much of a problem since Mewtwo can play very evasively and avoid many kill moves. Especially with the likes of his air dodge.

That's all I got to say. Again, this character's in the right spot to me.

Although Mewtwo's fair is a good move, it is not the second best fair in the game. Sheik and Mii Gunner definitely have better fairs.

Sheik's fair is better than Mewtwo's fair because it has great speed (frame 5) and it has very little lag (it autocancels on frame 11). It also has great range and combo potential.

Mii Gunner's fair is better than Mewtwo's fair because it is a great poking projectile (It travels over a quarter of final destination, and it is transcendent. It also only has 12 frames of landing lag, and it is safe on perfect shielding.), and it combos into most of Mii Gunner's moves (these combos are in the Mii Gunner true combo and follow up thread). It also allows gunner to gundash (it has the speed of a falcon kick without any landing lag) in order to move around quickly or recover offstage. The speed from gundashing is a good approach mixup, and it allows Gunner to juggle opponents very well.

Jeronado · Mar 5, 2016

+

Just trying to bump these guys up a bit. Their positions on the 4BR tier list made sense to me

420quickscoper · Mar 5, 2016

Djmarcus44 said:
Although Mewtwo's fair is a good move, it is not the second best fair in the game. Sheik and Mii Gunner definitely have better fairs.

Sheik's fair is better than Mewtwo's fair because it has great speed (frame 5) and it has very little lag (it autocancels on frame 11). It also has great range and combo potential.

Mii Gunner's fair is better than Mewtwo's fair because it is a great poking projectile (It travels over a quarter of final destination, and it is transcendent. It also only has 12 frames of landing lag, and it is safe on perfect shielding.), and it combos into most of Mii Gunner's moves (these combos are in the Mii Gunner true combo and follow up thread). It also allows gunner to gundash (it has the speed of a falcon kick without any landing lag) in order to move around quickly or recover offstage. The speed from gundashing is a good approach mixup, and it allows Gunner to juggle opponents very well.

I kind of forgot Gunner's.
I am well aware of Sheik's forward air being better.
M2's forward air isn't just good though - it can apply to almost every situation Mewtwo is in. It's an amazing move.
It's without a doubt one of the best forward airs, probably not the second best, but you get my point.

Djmarcus44 · Mar 5, 2016

420quickscoper said:
I kind of forgot Gunner's.
I am well aware of Sheik's forward air being better.
M2's forward air isn't just good though - it can apply to almost every situation Mewtwo is in. It's an amazing move.
It's without a doubt one of the best forward airs, probably not the second best, but you get my point.

Yeah, I get your point about Mewtwo's fair. I also want to mention that Mewtwo's disadvantage state is worse than what you make it out to be. Mewtwo's teleport isn't good for getting out of combos since Mewtwo doesn't become intangible until frame 9 when using the move. In addition, Mewtwo is still pretty easy to combo since he isn't truly floaty (Mewtwo has a fall speed that is a little bit above average). While Mewtwo has some pretty good landing options with his airdodge and the ability to cancel the lag of teleport with the help of platforms, Mewtwo's disadvantage state is substandard since he is relatively easy to hit, combo, and kill.

Browny · Mar 5, 2016

Djmarcus44 said:
Although Mewtwo's fair is a good move, it is not the second best fair in the game. Sheik and Mii Gunner definitely have better fairs.

Sheik's fair is better than Mewtwo's fair because it has great speed (frame 5) and it has very little lag (it autocancels on frame 11). It also has great range and combo potential.

Mii Gunner's fair is better than Mewtwo's fair because it is a great poking projectile (It travels over a quarter of final destination, and it is transcendent. It also only has 12 frames of landing lag, and it is safe on perfect shielding.), and it combos into most of Mii Gunner's moves (these combos are in the Mii Gunner true combo and follow up thread). It also allows gunner to gundash (it has the speed of a falcon kick without any landing lag) in order to move around quickly or recover offstage. The speed from gundashing is a good approach mixup, and it allows Gunner to juggle opponents very well.

Gonna disagree there.

Her fair is only better because of how it perfectly links into her quick ground moves. If you gave ganondorf sheiks fair, it would be a terrible attack because he cant pressure with it. In the air, Mewtwos fair utterly trounces sheiks fair with a double fair string doing up to 25%. Sheik can chain you across FD with 5 fairs and it only does about 18%.

There are plenty of similar cases in the game. For example, Ryus utilt is ridiculously good, a 2-frame move that combos into TSRK. However if you gave his utilt to falcon it would be awful, it wouldnt combo into anything and is in many cases outclassed by his jab.

Sheiks fair is a good move when used with her other attacks but by itself, I'm confident that Mewtwo has a better fair. Simply because he is going to rack up FAR more damage with it and KO because its just that versatile.

Gunners fair is interesting, many characters in this game would love a fair like that and it would help them immensely. I've seen how effective it is and I would say its better than sheiks, but at best, even with Mewtwos fair.

Routa · Mar 5, 2016

A lot of Aerials become better with the right mobility. Just like Skeik's Fair M2's Fair does need the mobility of M2 to be as good as it is.

Anyways like many have stated reasons why M2's Fair is so good is that it can kill at OK %, Deals good damage, links to another one at low % and it has low lag. Would I call it the best? Nah... There are better/equally good Fairs like Gunner's (safe on shield + Gundashing), Ike's (kills early,+ deals high damage + safeish on shield), Sheik's (quick + combos into other Fair + safeish on shield) and Swordfighter's (low lag + combos into other moves).

Bowserboy3 · Mar 5, 2016

Routa said:
A lot of Aerials become better with the right mobility. Just like Skeik's Fair M2's Fair does need the mobility of M2 to be as good as it is.

Anyways like many have stated reasons why M2's Fair is so good is that it can kill at OK %, Deals good damage, links to another one at low % and it has low lag. Would I call it the best? Nah... There are better/equally good Fairs like Gunner's (safe on shield + Gundashing), Ike's (kills early,+ deals high damage + safeish on shield), Sheik's (quick + combos into other Fair + safeish on shield) and Swordfighter's (low lag + combos into other moves).

This is true. Damage also plays a part in how good aerials are when using to combo too. For example, the 1% damage buff Marth got to his Fair allows him to string them together in the air better now, thanks to the higher hitstun.

I also think Mii Gunner's Fair is very good. It's very underrated and slept upon (much like all the Mii's in general, sad face...).

Dee-SmashinBoss · Mar 6, 2016

Peachs Fair is up there too, Great range, good damage, auto cancels from SH, great kill power, can be comboed into, safe on shield if spaced right.
Mainly has a bit of startup and landing lag, but those don't stop it from being so good.

Wintermelon43 · Mar 6, 2016

When are we updating?

Browny

TMNTSSB4 · Mar 6, 2016

Wintermelon43 said:
When are we updating? Browny

In the year 2020...and not until Duck Hunt gains some more love

Bowserboy3 · Mar 6, 2016

TMNTSSB4 said:
In the year 2020...and not until Duck Hunt gains some more love

Duck Hunt won't be getting too much more love until he starts getting actual results (sad, but true...).

Charoite · Mar 6, 2016

Mewtwo is not midtier, a character with the best air dodge, excellent aerials, excellent mobility, powerful attacks, good disadvantage and advantage state, and good neutral, saying that mewtwo is midtier because of weight, is same as saying that

is midtier because of bad recovery, well i should voting then:

+1

ShadowGuy1 · Mar 6, 2016

Charoite said:
Mewtwo is not midtier, a character with the best air dodge, excellent aerials, excellent mobility, powerful attacks, good disadvantage and advantage state, and good neutral, saying that mewtwo is midtier because of weight, is same as saying that
is midtier because of bad recovery, well i should voting then:

+1
+1
+1
+1

Mewtwo is mid tier becaus she does not have any major results

Furret24 · Mar 6, 2016

ShadowGuy1 said:
Mewtwo is mid tier becaus she does not have any major results

She?

Luig · Mar 6, 2016

Furret24 said:
She?

It's "it".
Mewtwo is genderless.

I'm not sure why we're talking about this.

TMNTSSB4 · Mar 6, 2016

Bowserboy3 said:
Duck Hunt won't be getting too much more love until he starts getting actual results (sad, but true...).

That's because people don't have the guts(not balls, guts)to do work with them and stick with it.

Wintermelon43 · Mar 6, 2016

Bowserboy3 said:
Duck Hunt won't be getting too much more love until he starts getting actual results (sad, but true...).

Right...... and Marth won't get any love ever again because of this

(That was the Marth that people were crying about because of how he looks, right? Or am I stupid)

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