Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Routa]

To all Zelda voters...

What makes Zelda not bottom tier? What does she do better than others? What about MU spread and theory? Only reasoning I have heard so far is that she has been used by top lvl player couple time. That doesn't prove anything. If player uses character that lacks theory and MU spread and wins with it... Well it only means he/she outplays his/her foes. As I have said before placing within tier list should be based around theory and MU spread.

But seriously is there something that she is better than most of the cast? I mean even Swordfighter has above average/top lvl off stage/edgeguarding game (when all special moves allowed along with all sizes ofc).

Anyways I think the worst character atm is Jigglypuff. Think about things that make Wario good. Now remove all of them and boom! You have a Jigglypuff. Like Pikachu most of her moves are unsafe on shield, lack of GOOD OoS options, lack of disjoints, no reach at all, lack of reliable KO options, "good" recovery (linear) etc.

+ I have wrote why I think he should be higher many times so I wont repeat myself unless someone wants to know the reasoning.

 

[Bowserboy3]

To all Zelda voters...

What makes Zelda not bottom tier? What does she do better than others? What about MU spread and theory? Only reasoning I have heard so far is that she has been used by top lvl player couple time. That doesn't prove anything. If player uses character that lacks theory and MU spread and wins with it... Well it only means he/she outplays his/her foes. As I have said before placing within tier list should be based around theory and MU spread.

But seriously is there something that she is better than most of the cast? I mean even Swordfighter has above average/top lvl off stage/edgeguarding game (when all special moves allowed along with all sizes ofc).

Anyways I think the worst character atm is Jigglypuff. Think about things that make Wario good. Now remove all of them and boom! You have a Jigglypuff. Like Pikachu most of her moves are unsafe on shield, lack of GOOD OoS options, lack of disjoints, no reach at all, lack of reliable KO options, "good" recovery (linear) etc.

+ I have wrote why I think he should be higher many times so I wont repeat myself unless someone wants to know the reasoning.

You and me, we think on the same page, I like you. Personally, I also believe Jigglypuff is currently the worst character in the game, though who is next to her, I am not sure... Gunner maybe, with Palutena and Dedede close by.

 

[Zerp]

To all Zelda voters...

What makes Zelda not bottom tier? What does she do better than others? What about MU spread and theory? Only reasoning I have heard so far is that she has been used by top lvl player couple time. That doesn't prove anything. If player uses character that lacks theory and MU spread and wins with it... Well it only means he/she outplays his/her foes. As I have said before placing within tier list should be based around theory and MU spread.

But seriously is there something that she is better than most of the cast? I mean even Swordfighter has above average/top lvl off stage/edgeguarding game (when all special moves allowed along with all sizes ofc).

Anyways I think the worst character atm is Jigglypuff. Think about things that make Wario good. Now remove all of them and boom! You have a Jigglypuff. Like Pikachu most of her moves are unsafe on shield, lack of GOOD OoS options, lack of disjoints, no reach at all, lack of reliable KO options, "good" recovery (linear) etc.

I absolutely agree with you on Zelda, and while I both agree with most of the points you listed for Puff and feel that your opinion is well justified, I respectfully disagree with you on Jigglypuff's placement. Even with all of her horrid flaws, her aerial momentum, Rest, gimping and edgeguarding tools (Nair, Bair), above average priority and Wall of Pain are worth more altogether in my eyes than what the current bottom tier can currently offer. I'm not saying she's above the bottom ten, and I'm not in denial that she's bad overall, I just don't think she could be the worst character with her toolkit as of now.

Although, if customs were on I'd definitely be inclined to agree with you.

 

[Scamper52596]

To all Zelda voters...

What makes Zelda not bottom tier? What does she do better than others? What about MU spread and theory? Only reasoning I have heard so far is that she has been used by top lvl player couple time. That doesn't prove anything. If player uses character that lacks theory and MU spread and wins with it... Well it only means he/she outplays his/her foes. As I have said before placing within tier list should be based around theory and MU spread.

But seriously is there something that she is better than most of the cast? I mean even Swordfighter has above average/top lvl off stage/edgeguarding game (when all special moves allowed along with all sizes ofc).

She still is bottom tier. Why are you even asking and making a big deal out of it? She's not going to shoot up three or four tiers if she manages to win. You don't have to agree with my vote. Part of the reason I didn't vote in these last two tier rows was due to all of this counter voting bullcrap. People should just vote for a character they feel strongly about and leave it at that. This is a community voted tier list, and right now we are tasked with up voting or down voting a single character of our choosing. I legitimately think Zelda is out of place and not the worst character in the game so she could stand to move up to tier 6, which still isn't even that high at all. It's really not an issue, and I don't feel as if I should have to explain my reasoning behind my vote.

Although if you really want me to give you a quick explanation, I believe that Zelda has the potential to get a lot more out of a good read than many of the other lower tier characters. A strong read could possibly mean an early K.O. due to how hard she can hit. That's how higher level players play Smash. They read their opponent. And since she's been buffed pretty well fixing a couple of her issues since the game first released, a good read from a Zelda player can be all the more deadly.

 

[Bowserboy3]

She still is bottom tier. Why are you even asking and making a big deal out of it? She's not going to shoot up three or four tiers if she manages to win. You don't have to agree with my vote. Part of the reason I didn't vote in these last two tier rows was due to all of this counter voting bullcrap. People should just vote for a character they feel strongly about and leave it at that. This is a community voted tier list, and right now we are tasked with up voting or down voting a single character of our choosing. I legitimately think Zelda is out of place and not the worst character in the game so she could stand to move up to tier 6, which still isn't even that high at all. It's really not an issue, and I don't feel as if I should have to explain my reasoning behind my vote.

Although if you really want me to give you a quick explanation, I believe that Zelda has the potential to get a lot more out of a good read than many of the other lower tier characters. A strong read could possibly mean an early K.O. due to how hard she can hit. That's how higher level players play Smash. They read their opponent. And since she's been buffed pretty well fixing a couple of her issues since the game first released, a good read from a Zelda player can be all the more deadly.

He's probably just asking because he himself doesn't believe Zelda to be among tier 6. You mention that Zelda can get good things off of a good read, when in fact most of the characters around her are better at that. Ganondorf gets more reward off of a read than Zelda does, as does Bowser. Samus (though I believe her to be in tier 5, I'll use the current list as an example) can get a potential shield break off of a read, into a KO, as well as having a great set of moves that can lead into Charge Shot tech chases, which of course can kill. Mewtwo also has this, with his Shadow Ball being the toughest projectile in the game. Jiggly also has the potential for a Rest on a read. Though Zelda does get good punishes off of her reads, they still aren't as good as all the characters around her (though I would argue that they are better than Puff's, even with Rest). Zelda also doesn't have reliable approach options or solid combos. Sure, she can string Up Tilts, or do Down Throw into Nair at low percents (even then the opponent can DI back and get out of it), but characters like Mewtwo and Samus have better combos, both of which can still combo at higher percents. Heck, even Ganondorf can combo a couple of moves into each other at higher percents more than Zelda, such as Dthrow to Uair, Dash Attack sourspot into Uair, which can potentially kill, and of course on certain characters, Flame Choke into Dtilt, or read the getup and punish. He can even get 29% off of his 0% combo throw.

In my ideal world, Zelda wouldn't be dead last. That place goes to Jiggly or Gunner for me. Zelda isn't the worst character in the game, and she isn't unusable a-la Brawl bottom tier, as she does have some things going for her. But she still is lacking compared to the other characters in tier 6.

I also think that Palutena is sorely misplaced too, as in she should also be lower. Out of all the low tiers, the shield changes hurt Palutena more than helping her, where as most of the others benefit from it (Zelda/Ganon/Samus/Mewtwo/Bowser/Dedede getting safer on shield moves, characters like Samus/Ganon/Bowser/Mewtwo all have a much easier time with shield breaks etc)

 

[Routa]

Edit: Damn Bowserboy3 why you so fast?

 

[DBZHedgy]

+ because those setups

 

[Bowserboy3]

+ because those setups
- because she's so sluggish in a lot of ways, and is generally pretty underwhelming compared to her previous Smash iterations

Just a note, you can only make one vote, not two.

And on another note, you clearly haven't seen what Samus can do in comparison to the other characters around her. Guaranteed shield breaks? Check. 0 to 40% combos? Check (on stages like Battlefield, you can get even higher percents, and even kill some characters). Great suitability thanks to great weight and multiple recovery options? Check. Samus also has combos that can lead into kills at higher percents. That is just scratching the surface.

 

[Wintermelon43]

+1

Also, to anyone saying Jigglypuff is bottom tier, I could litertatly make a Thousand reasons why she doesn't deserve to be even near there. That's not a joke OR exaggeration.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Wow, this list is actually pretty much perfect. I'm impressed.
That said, -1

 

[Scamper52596]

He's probably just asking because he himself doesn't believe Zelda to be among tier 6. You mention that Zelda can get good things off of a good read, when in fact most of the characters around her are better at that. Ganondorf gets more reward off of a read than Zelda does, as does Bowser. Samus (though I believe her to be in tier 5, I'll use the current list as an example) can get a potential shield break off of a read, into a KO, as well as having a great set of moves that can lead into Charge Shot tech chases, which of course can kill. Mewtwo also has this, with his Shadow Ball being the toughest projectile in the game. Jiggly also has the potential for a Rest on a read. Though Zelda does get good punishes off of her reads, they still aren't as good as all the characters around her (though I would argue that they are better than Puff's, even with Rest). Zelda also doesn't have reliable approach options or solid combos. Sure, she can string Up Tilts, or do Down Throw into Nair at low percents (even then the opponent can DI back and get out of it), but characters like Mewtwo and Samus have better combos, both of which can still combo at higher percents. Heck, even Ganondorf can combo a couple of moves into each other at higher percents more than Zelda, such as Dthrow to Uair, Dash Attack sourspot into Uair, which can potentially kill, and of course on certain characters, Flame Choke into Dtilt, or read the getup and punish. He can even get 29% off of his 0% combo throw.

In my ideal world, Zelda wouldn't be dead last. That place goes to Jiggly or Gunner for me. Zelda isn't the worst character in the game, and she isn't unusable a-la Brawl bottom tier, as she does have some things going for her. But she still is lacking compared to the other characters in tier 6.

I also think that Palutena is sorely misplaced too, as in she should also be lower. Out of all the low tiers, the shield changes hurt Palutena more than helping her, where as most of the others benefit from it (Zelda/Ganon/Samus/Mewtwo/Bowser/Dedede getting safer on shield moves, characters like Samus/Ganon/Bowser/Mewtwo all have a much easier time with shield breaks etc)

Uh, okay. You do realize that if Zelda moves up to tier 6, she'll still be placed behind all of those characters that you argue are better. Going by this tier list's logic in making orders within tiers, that would technically mean those characters are still considered better. There really wasn't much of a point to this post, and I'll still continue to personally feel that she belongs in tier 6.

Edit: Damn Bowserboy3 why you so fast?

Just focus on voting for a character that you personally feel should move up or down instead of trying to counter vote a character that somebody else feels strongly about. Since this is a community tier list, in the end majority should rule. It's pretty useless to me to throw out a counter vote since it rarely even works. I saw plenty of people try to counter vote Ryu from moving up; he still moved up. Same for people counter voting Yoshi from moving down; he still moved down. I don't see the point. If the majority feels that a character should move, it's likely going to happen.

What I was saying is that I believe Zelda is more likely to land an early K.O. off of a good read than many other characters. That's basically it. Of course other players read reads and what not, but eventually someone is going to get the read.

I don't feel like I need to explain my reasoning in detail due to the fact that I simply don't take this tier list as seriously as others do. I just choose to use some of my time on Smashboards to contribute and that's all. I do it for fun. It's too early to even create a fully accurate tier list anyways with balance patches still changing the meta.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Dang, it feels life yesterday this just started. I don't want it to the w break, maybe we I right into customs!!!

 

[Wintermelon43]

Dang, it feels life yesterday this just started. I don't want it to the w break, maybe we I right into customs!!!

Browny takes a break in between threm.

Perhaps if you get permission from Browny, you could run a customs one, but I don't think he will want you to. But either way, Browny isn't doing this for probably another four months

 

[Xandercosm]

+1 I think he deserved to move up. I still think so. I've now been playing him for quite a while and he is an incredibly solid character with an amazing edge-game, great advantage state, and fantastic air-game. Plus, 90% of his moves are super safe. He's, in my opinion, one of the best characters to combat Sheik. I think he has a lot going for him. Also, I wish him luck in the future. Hopefully he'll get some more rep even. He deserves it...

 

[Bowserboy3]

Uh, okay. You do realize that if Zelda moves up to tier 6, she'll still be placed behind all of those characters that you argue are better. Going by this tier list's logic in making orders within tiers, that would technically mean those characters are still considered better. There really wasn't much of a point to this post, and I'll still continue to personally feel that she belongs in tier 6.


Just focus on voting for a character that you personally feel should move up or down instead of trying to counter vote a character that somebody else feels strongly about. Since this is a community tier list, in the end majority should rule. It's pretty useless to me to throw out a counter vote since it rarely even works. I saw plenty of people try to counter vote Ryu from moving up; he still moved up. Same for people counter voting Yoshi from moving down; he still moved down. I don't see the point. If the majority feels that a character should move, it's likely going to happen.

What I was saying is that I believe Zelda is more likely to land an early K.O. off of a good read than many other characters. That's basically it. Of course other players read reads and what not, but eventually someone is going to get the read.

I don't feel like I need to explain my reasoning in detail due to the fact that I simply don't take this tier list as seriously as others do. I just choose to use some of my time on Smashboards to contribute and that's all. I do it for fun. It's too early to even create a fully accurate tier list anyways with balance patches still changing the meta.

Just sticking up for Routa here, I don't think he is trying to countervote Zelda. The way I see it, he's just asking the Zelda up voters to try and explain their reasoning a bit better, because in theory, she still doesn't have that great a kit compared to those around her. He's not saying "Don't vote Zelda", he's more saying "Just re think why you are voting Zelda". Or at least that is the way I see it.

 

[Scamper52596]

Just sticking up for Routa here, I don't think he is trying to countervote Zelda. The way I see it, he's just asking the Zelda up voters to try and explain their reasoning a bit better, because in theory, she still doesn't have that great a kit. He's not saying "Don't vote Zelda", he's more saying "Just re think why you are voting Zelda". Or at least that is the way I see it.

*Sees No Counter-votes sign*
*Sees people upvoting Zelda*
Why u do dis?

He probably wanted to though.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Browny takes a break in between threm.

Perhaps if you get permission from Browny, you could run a customs one, but I don't think he will want you to. But either way, Browny isn't doing this for probably another four months

Yeah, I was just hoping with some miracle that he would not do the break but oh well!!!!

 

[Bowserboy3]

He probably wanted to though.

Even so, I don't see the point on trying to counteract a vote of another in a situation like this when you only have one vote. Like you said, just vote for who you believe in strongly enough. For example, I think Marth should be at least with Falco (however, this bought a whole other debate on for myself because I do believe Samus needs to move up a bit, and if Marth moves up, surely Lucina needs to move up a bit too, but rules are rules).

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Ok, apoligize for the double, but I think we can all agree that Wintermelon is like the most common person you see on here.

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

+1

Can't really find anything else I disagree with.

 

[KaseTaube]

-1 charizard just doesn't match up with the amount of potential the other tier 5 characters do in my opinion

 

[MarioMeteor]

The problem with pikachu is that within his tier ( 1) is the character that has higher skill ceiling and sorta unorthodox neutral game compared to others. This is what hinders him from getting more representation meanwhile Mario, Sonic, fox, sheik, etc are more straightforward.

Yet Rosalina and Ryu are top and high tier respectively, despite being two of, if not THE two hardest characters to use properly in the game.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I absolutely agree with you on Zelda, and while I both agree with most of the points you listed for Puff and feel that your opinion is well justified, I respectfully disagree with you on Jigglypuff's placement. Even with all of her horrid flaws, her aerial momentum, Rest, gimping and edgeguarding tools (Nair, Bair), above average priority and Wall of Pain are worth more altogether in my eyes than what the current bottom tier can currently offer. I'm not saying she's above the bottom ten, and I'm not in denial that she's bad overall, I just don't think she could be the worst character with her toolkit as of now.

Although, if customs were on I'd definitely be inclined to agree with you.

What are you talking about? Spinphony is obviously the best move in the game. But seriously, there is absolutely no way in hell Jigglypuff is the worst character in the game. That being said...

+1

 

[Furret24]

I still believe Jigglypuff is bottom 5 at the very least.

-1

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

+1 I can't possibly see him in the bottom half. Fantastic at spacing, really powerful, and good at applying pressure. His worst iteration, sure, but still has great tools.

Would have upvoted , but I see other people are already doing that. Also, I feel like , , and are too low within their tiers, and having a great matchup against Sheik is something to consider.

 

[L9999]

+1 I can't possibly see him in the bottom half. Fantastic at spacing, really powerful, and good at applying pressure. His worst iteration, sure, but still has great tools.

Would have upvoted , but I see other people are already doing that. Also, I feel like , , and are too low within their tiers, and having a great matchup against Sheik is something to consider.

Didn't the Lucario/Sheik myth died a month ago?

 

[Browny]

How do you know what's a counter-vote and what's not?

I don't, but anyone who actually mentions that in their post is going to get it ignored.

Think of it as a rule to identify people who dont read the rules, lol.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

One day we'll be able to do so... one day....

In the words of Chrom, we'll have our chance...another day.

 

[Routa]

I have to thank Bowserboy3 for answering for me. You were spot on on all most every part.

Anyways about the reasoning... I will give you an example. Let's say I vote -. Most of people would wonder why did I choose to vote her down even when it is commonly accepted and agreed that she is the best character in game. This would lead into people asking me to reason my vote. Then all the suddenly I would answer "I don't feel like I need to explain". The reaction would most likely be mix of confusion, anger and wonder.

What I am trying to say is that vote without any kind of reasoning doesn't bring anything to the discussion and isn't taken seriously due to that. In my opinion these kind of votes should be ignored, but I'm not OP in this thread so...

I don't feel like I need to explain my reasoning in detail due to the fact that I simply don't take this tier list as seriously as others do. I just choose to use some of my time on Smashboards to contribute and that's all. I do it for fun. It's too early to even create a fully accurate tier list anyways with balance patches still changing the meta.

What is the point of this list if people vote here just for fun? The thing is that SmashBoards is known for up to date Smash Bros information so having thing that is complytely false is... well... I hope you get my point. Also as I have stated before tier list should reflect the current Meta, knowledge of characters and their MUs and theory.
Oh also

*Sees No Counter-votes sign*
*Sees people upvoting Zelda*
Why u do dis?

was a mix of a joke and a pointer. If people just vote a character that they think should not be in bottom tier without checking characters in other tiers and comparing them... well you gonna have a bad time...

I would seriously like to know what Zelda has that I am not aware of? Because as far as I know she has nothing special going for her self or anything that she is good at.

Anyways...

+1

Also, to anyone saying Jigglypuff is bottom tier, I could litertatly make a Thousand reasons why she doesn't deserve to be even near there. That's not a joke OR exaggeration.

I would like to hear the reasoning behind this. If I could have the reasoning without bias... well that would be great.

Also I have really hard time writing anything due to poor linguistic and dyslexia. But I hope you guys get what I mean with my writing.

 

[Bowserboy3]

NINTENDO DIRECT INCOMING! POTENTIAL FOR NEW SMASH NEWS! POTENTIAL PATCH CHANGES AND NEW CHARACTERS! 12TH NOVEMBER 2PM PT, 11PM GMT! THIS IS NOT A DRILL, I REPEAT, THIS IS NOT A DRILL!

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2015/11/the_next_nintendo_direct_is_on_12th_november

 

[Wintermelon43]

Oh no... This tier list might be ruined as soon as it is finished again.... Just like the first time....

 

[Vapo]

Wait, so if this new Direct brings any new characters, are we going to redo the entire list, or have a round where we place them, or? One new potential character could impact the tier list a lot. I wasn't there when this was done with Roy/Ryu/Lucas and people so I'm not sure what the procedure is here.

Also,

+1 Great air game, pretty good recovery (that can also kill at ridiculously early % at the top blast line due to MK's multiple jumps), safe moves. I strongly believe he's Tier 2 material, and in the same boat as Ryu. If I had two votes I would move up Villager as well, but alas, I don't.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Wait, so if this new Direct brings any new characters, are we going to redo the entire list, or have a round where we place them, or? One new potential character could impact the tier list a lot. I wasn't there when this was done with Roy/Ryu/Lucas and people so I'm not sure what the procedure is here.

Also,

+1 Great air game, pretty good recovery (that can also kill at ridiculously early % at the top blast line due to MK's multiple jumps), safe moves. I strongly believe he's Tier 2 material, and in the same boat as Ryu. If I had two votes I would move up Villager as well, but alas, I don't.

This one started the day Roy, Lucas, and Ryu were released, so we had nothing to worry about.

When Mewtwo came out, nothing was changed, so I expect this to happen in this one.

 

[Xandercosm]

Lets restart the tier list. VOTING ON TIER 7 AGAIN, EVERYONE!

 

[Crimson23]

+. Yes, his recovery isn't that good. At all. Neither is his speed. Yet, he still has really good combo potential and KOs insanely early. No, he's no top tier. Not even close. But I believe he deserves to be higher than a lower-mid tier. Mid or lowest in upper-mid, IMO.

 

[L9999]

NINTENDO DIRECT INCOMING! POTENTIAL FOR NEW SMASH NEWS! POTENTIAL PATCH CHANGES AND NEW CHARACTERS! 12TH NOVEMBER 2PM PT, 11PM GMT! THIS IS NOT A DRILL, I REPEAT, THIS IS NOT A DRILL!

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2015/11/the_next_nintendo_direct_is_on_12th_november

About damn time.

 

[TimG57867]

Just curious. How many characters could potentially move during this phase? Is their any technical limit?

Also, what'll happen once it's over?

 

[Wintermelon43]

Just curious. How many characters could potentially move during this phase? Is their any technical limit?

Also, what'll happen once it's over?

5 characters move.

Also, inb4 Ike has 1% added into down smash and people start considering him top 5

 

[TDK]

Watch that Nin direct just bring back all the veterans...

 

[Wintermelon43]

I hope and are given the Ike treatment.

And that are given the Falco treatment

should probably get either the Ike treatment, or the Falco treatment, as well

There should probably be a balance patch thread or something, though.