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Super Smash Bros 4 (Wii U/3DS) Topic

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Moon Monkey

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Honestly, I would prefer the approach they took with Melee and make 1 killer pre-rendered cutscene and do all the little cut-scenes through in game animations.
Like this short little Luigi sequence:
No need to boggle down the game with cutscenes you'll probably only see once or thrice.
 

N3ON

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Seems my memory is slipping, all this hustle and bustle and all these youngins must be too much for this old timer. *shakes cane*

http://www.joystiq.com/2013/06/19/xbox-one-80-microsoft-reverses-xbox-one-drm-features/

Oh. Well.

Looks like Microsoft is rescinding those controversial things.
Well that's cool I guess, though makes Nintendo acquiring Rare's IPs less likely, which is really the only thing to do with Microsoft I care about. (Not that it was likely anyway)
Still not getting one though. Wii U + PS4 for me.
Damn KH3 not coming to the Wii U...
 

kackamee

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Honestly, I would prefer the approach they took with Melee and make 1 killer pre-rendered cutscene and do all the little cut-scenes through in game animations.
Like this short little Luigi sequence:
No need to boggle down the game with cutscenes you'll probably only see once or thrice.
It's not like anything was cut out of the game due to SSE, as far as we know. And I guess maybe it's just differing opinion, but I thought SSE cutscenes were cute and quirky.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Whatttt? I thoroughly enjoyed the cutscenes more than anything. It was the coolest thing to see how characters paired up and fought together, or against each other. The story itself might not have been that great, but watching Marth and MK, Diddy and Fox, and all these other unlikely pairs come together was the incredibly cool to watch for me.

Those bits were neat. But a lot of them weren't. Like the very long cutscene with the whole battleship fight. Mind you, I am against cutscenes in general since they take up too much space, and are better off as dialogue with maybe a few cool moments.

My other issue is that they don't do a great job at telling the story, the only thing I find them useful for at best. I only like them for things like attacks(like Captain Falcon's Final Smash). The only cutscenes I thought weren't eh was the one where King Dedede trophified Luigi, Sonic's arrival, and Captain Falcon's first appearance.

I think some could still be reduced. I hope that For has a smaller slew with at best maybe only doing introductions for FMV's and leave the rest to dialogue. It'd save space while still telling a good story.

It's not like anything was cut out of the game due to SSE, as far as we know. And I guess maybe it's just differing opinion, but I thought SSE cutscenes were cute and quirky.
...It took up 70% of the development time. And there's the Forbidden 7 that never made it in. Technically, we did have some stuff cut overall. Mewtwo was the most finished, notably. Dixie probably wouldn't have made it in regardless, as Sakurai's reason she's not in is he couldn't get the mechanic to work right. The rest, though... especially Roy, Mewtwo, Dr. Mario...
 

LiteralGrill

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I dunno, story mode in general in brawl disappointing me quite a bit. It was decent I guess, but the random platformy crap was more annoying then anything and the story so vague and missing points as we've later learned that it was mostly disappointing, if getting rid of tons of cutscenes and trying something else for story mode could be done I'd prefer that.
 

Moon Monkey

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It's not like anything was cut out of the game due to SSE, as far as we know. And I guess maybe it's just differing opinion, but I thought SSE cutscenes were cute and quirky.
Well in terms of Brawl I don't think it matters all to much. But since the 3DS and Wii U versions of the game are said to be identical versions, with the exception of stages and the 3DS's mystery customization feature, too many per-rendered movies will cause an issues if Sakurai and his team are aiming similar core content across both platforms.

http://www.joystiq.com/2013/06/19/xbox-one-80-microsoft-reverses-xbox-one-drm-features/

Oh. Well.

Looks like Microsoft is rescinding those controversial things.
I'm not sure if this is one of those "the damage has already been done" situations. But at a lower price and higher specs the PS4 is still a better choice.
 

Hoots

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Well that's cool I guess, though makes Nintendo acquiring Rare's IPs less likely, which is really the only thing to do with Microsoft I care about. (Not that it was likely anyway)
This is still possible. Granted, Microsoft DID renege on the DRM features, but from a marketing standpoint, a colossal amount of damage has already been dealt. Many analysts are saying that Xbox is going to be sold off in 5 years. This is a very real possibility, as Xbox is a tiny fraction of Microsoft's revenue. If the Xbone bombs (which is looking quite likely), it would be logical for Microsoft to just sell off all of their gaming assets. If this DOES happen, I would imagine Nintendo would buy up Rare unless they have an aversion to money. Don't stop believin'.
 
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The way Sakurai worded it (every character who has appeared in the series at this point) makes me think that he may already have ruled out some characters flat out not coming back (probably Pichu, Dr. Mario, and Young Link). Brawl veterans that may get the axe with no intention of being included at all would probably be Snake, Sonic, and/or Toon Link (only if a newer version of child Link is planned).
At this rate, given Sakurai hesitant to cut, it makes me feel that should there be Brawl veteran cuts out of time constraints and DLC occurs, he will put them back.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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We can only hope for DLC.

Although the 3DS might not get much, if PT stays, I'd love to be able to download alternate versions of him.
 

volbound1700

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So what are the chances of Sonic and Snake's return? I know when Sakurai described Megaman, he stated he was a great add because he added move-set potential that nobody in the Nintendo pool had available. Sonic and Snake also fit this bill. Do you think they stay or are gone? It would stink if they didn't make it but I see more people on here bringing it up.
 
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Actually, I don't think Dr. Mario can be quite ruled out yet.

Now it is true that he wasn't in development as much as Roy and Mewtwo were but regardless he was still planned to return. That meant that Sakurai had some interest left in Dr. Mario. Based off him doing a 180 on the Villager, it's reasonable to assume that Dr. Mario is still in the race for potential additions.

Not that I think he's likely, but he is still a possibility.
 

FlareHabanero

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It was because ChronoBound noted just how inactive Chrom support was on Smashboards. I think the thread revived because of ChronoBound's comment.
Pretty sure it was user Nolar_Mass that did that. For some reason the majority of supporters in that thread are 110% sure that Chrom will be a very original and exciting character and that he cannot be a clone. You know, despite Chrom recycling aspects of Marth and Ike. I have no bloody idea what goes through their minds...
 

Opossum

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Pretty sure it was user Nolar_Mass that did that. For some reason the majority of supporters in that thread are 110% sure that Chrom will be a very original and exciting character and that he cannot be a clone. You know, despite Chrom recycling aspects of Marth and Ike. I have no bloody idea what goes through their minds...

Well, optimism, for one, and not blind pessimism. Keep in mind that while I like Chrom as a character choice, I do find Roy more likely, and about the same when it comes to appeal.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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You sure you wanna have DLC? Most of the time it's handled VERY badly and leaves bad taste in people's mouths.

Yes, I definitely do. I have no issues with it.

I'd only prefer it for costumes or alternate characters, though.

My only problem would be for on-disc DLC. Which has not been an issue for Smash. Even if Brawl could've had DLC, no character was finished nor did they have the time to do so. I would've loved to play as the others.

@SSBF: Agreed. I'd still like him back, but not before some newer guys, I.E. Toad.
 

`dazrin

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I was going to be a little quiet about this, but regarding the controversial topic on the "3ds limitations" I've gone ahead and done some research on the hardware specs of the wii u, wii, gamecube, and 3ds.

I honestly doubt that space is an issue-- but I did think that perhaps RAM or processing power would be a problem on the 3ds. If you examine the system specs of the Wii and 3DS, you can see that the 3DS is actually more powerful in quite a few areas. For one, the 3DS actually has more RAM than the Wii does and is more efficient at rendering graphics (shaders and textures) than the Wii is. However, when it comes to raw MHz, the Wii's processor clocks in at 729 MHz, while the 3DS trails behind at around 268MHz. The 8gb on a 3ds cart should be far more than enough space, and the 128mb of RAM that the 3DS has is a significant upgrade over the Wii's 88mb of RAM. The Wii U leaves both of these systems in the dust with it's 1.25GHz processor speed along with 2GB of RAM though.

So what does this all mean? It means that Sakurai is going to have some serious problems when it comes to loading times and having multiple things on the screen. I'm talking frame rate drops and unbearable transformation sequences when it comes to things like zelda and sheik. Sakurai is NOT saying that he's going to need to reduce the roster size because of the 3ds, and he's NOT saying that he's going to need to find ways to save space by removing cutscenes-- he's saying that the way some characters (or other aspects) innately work is going to need to change/ be lessened in some way in order to make the gameplay on the 3ds version as smooth and seamless as it is on the wii u version. This could mean things like Zelda and Sheik could very well perhaps only be switched on the character select screen instead of midway through a fight, or that Olimar would only be able to have 2-3 pikmin out at a time, or even no pikmin at all and have a completely revamped moveset. It could also mean that the Ice-Climbers may just have to be reduced to a single Ice-Climber, or that PT would only be able to choose one pokemon per fight, or even outright cut from the game. These are the kinds of "reductions" Sakurai is referring to. He is not talking about reducing the number of characters in the roster. If he plans on having both consoles have "identical" gameplay (ie: characters, movesets, etc), then some things are going to need to change to make sure the 3DS can keep up.
 

N3ON

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This is still possible. Granted, Microsoft DID renege on the DRM features, but from a marketing standpoint, a colossal amount of damage has already been dealt. Many analysts are saying that Xbox is going to be sold off in 5 years. This is a very real possibility, as Xbox is a tiny fraction of Microsoft's revenue. If the Xbone bombs (which is looking quite likely), it would be logical for Microsoft to just sell off all of their gaming assets. If this DOES happen, I would imagine Nintendo would buy up Rare unless they have an aversion to money. Don't stop believin'.
Well then in that case I wish them all the worst. :grin:

Pretty sure it was user Nolar_Mass that did that. For some reason the majority of supporters in that thread are 110% sure that Chrom will be a very original and exciting character and that he cannot be a clone. You know, despite Chrom recycling aspects of Marth and Ike. I have no bloody idea what goes through their minds...
You know... Chrom can be made unique and original. Do I think that's likely? No, I think Sakurai will find more merit in other characters. Does he lend himself to a unique moveset easily? No, not really. Do I personally find Chrom a big old snooze? I sure do. But... he can be made his own character, it's possible, and it comes down to Sakurai's opinion, because he'll definitely be looked at at one point.
 

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3DS has a 268MHz processor? That's even lower than GameCube's 486MHz one.

But here's the odd thing... If the problem is in the processor, why did Brawl take longer times to switch between characters and had longer loading times?
 

FlareHabanero

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But here's the odd thing... If the problem is in the processor, why did Brawl take longer times to switch between characters and had longer loading times?
That's probably contributed by the duel layer disc. It effects pretty much all of the loading in the game due to how the data is formatted, which is why Brawl generally speaking has slower loading times then Melee.
 

FalKoopa

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3DS has a 268MHz processor? That's even lower than GameCube's 486MHz one.

But here's the odd thing... If the problem is in the processor, why did Brawl take longer times to switch between characters and had longer loading times?
Blame the programming. Melee pre-loaded the transformations into its cache before the match begun. Brawl loads them only after you execute the transformation Down-B. It takes more time to read data from the disc.
 

`dazrin

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3DS has a 268MHz processor? That's even lower than GameCube's 486MHz one.

But here's the odd thing... If the problem is in the processor, why did Brawl take longer times to switch between characters and had longer loading times?
It's because brawl was very, very inefficiently coded. In fact, the loading times are SO horrible and so horrendously coded that the we, the Project M staff, had to re-code a lot of how those things worked to allow for MUCH, much faster and more efficient loading times.
 

Frostwraith

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That's probably contributed by the duel layer disc. It effects pretty much all of the loading in the game due to how the data is formatted, which is why Brawl generally speaking has slower loading times then Melee.
Yeah, I had a hunch it would be that. Couldn't think of anything else. [Badly programmed code is also to blame.]

The GCN had a 486 MHz processor, while the 3DS has a 268 MHz. 3DS's processor only has around 55% of the GCN's processor frequency. That would possibly cut the loading times in half. Yeah, it's an issue.

Unless Sakurai has a clever way to work around this and manages to keep the characters the same, certain aspects will have to be changed for the 3DS version, at least.
 

`dazrin

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The dual layer disk isn't necessarily the problem. It's just the way they coded things and how it was handled. For evidence of this, boot up PM and the difference in loading times is literally night and day.
 

Moon Monkey

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Most likely what will happen is that the 3DS version will have less particle effects and and flashy entrances compared to the Wii U version.
 

Frostwraith

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The dual layer disk isn't necessarily the problem. It's just the way they coded things and how it was handled. For evidence of this, boot up PM and the difference in loading times is literally night and day.
Well, with a more experienced team at Namco Bandai, I doubt such issues would arise this time around.

Guess we now know what's the root of the 3DS version's problem. Hardware issues. 3DS's processor is even slower than GameCube's.
 

Moon Monkey

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It's going to take much more than that, my friend. lol
It's a start, none the less. The differences between the two will be something reminiscent of Sonic Lost World for the Wii U and 3DS. There will be some obvious work arounds, and loss in level fidelity, animations and background detail.

Like the obvious pride rock jpeg layer in the background of Battlefield as opposed to floating ruin geometry on the Wii U version.
 

Frostwraith

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it's a start. The differences between the two will be something reminiscent of Sonic Lost World on the Wii U and 3DS. There will be some obvious work arounds and loss in level fidelity, animations and background detail.
It's not only that, but characters like the ICs and Olimar have AI controlled partners. Those characters require more processing power than other characters.

As for the transforming characters, the only issue is the loading during transformation which might be slower. Considering GCN's 486 MHz processor and 3DS's 268 MHz one, it would take more time to load something on the 3DS version.

To be fair, I don't think this should be a huge difference, when you consider that Melee's loading times were quite fast. A reduction to a processor which has 55% of speed, I can assume that loading times would take more or less twice the time than in Melee... (Someone correct me if I'm wrong.)
 

FlareHabanero

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I have a feeling in order to create a consistent frame rate, the 3DS version is going to use 30FPS instead of 60FPS like the Wii U version, Melee, and Brawl did. I feel as though going that route would help to not overwhelm the processor of the 3DS.
 

Krynxe

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The point is, Brawls slow loading speed is because of the game not the console.

melee runs (slightly) better on a wii
if you could run brawl on a gamecube, it would suck
 

Frostwraith

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I have a feeling in order to create a consistent frame rate, the 3DS version is going to use 30FPS instead of 60FPS like the Wii U version, Melee, and Brawl did. I feel as though going that route would help to not overwhelm the processor of the 3DS.
Well, you're cutting the frame rate in half and, while I doubt it would solve everything, it would help things.
 

Moon Monkey

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It's not only that, but characters like the ICs and Olimar have AI controlled partners. Those characters require more processing power than other characters.

As for the transforming characters, the only issue is the loading during transformation which might be slower. Considering GCN's 486 MHz processor and 3DS's 268 MHz one, it would take more time to load something on the 3DS version.

To be fair, I don't think this should be a huge difference, when you consider that Melee's loading times were quite fast. A reduction to a processor which has 55% of speed, I can assume that loading times would take more or less twice the time than in Melee... (Someone correct me if I'm wrong.)
This is true too. Also I believe the additional power that the 3DS has is used to help maintain a high framerate for 3D, the 3DS processor and the parallax screen work with rates twice as high (120 refreshes in a 60 fps game.)

So the ex we might consider to be an improvement over the Wii may just be used so the system can run smoothly with 3D.
 

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I have a feeling in order to create a consistent frame rate, the 3DS version is going to use 30FPS instead of 60FPS like the Wii U version, Melee, and Brawl did. I feel as though going that route would help to not overwhelm the processor of the 3DS.
I'm not sure about it. The Smash 3DS trailers don't seem to indicate that yet.
 

`dazrin

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it's a start. The differences between the two will be something reminiscent of Sonic Lost World on the Wii U and 3DS. There will be some obvious work arounds and loss in level fidelity, animations and background detail.
Well, its quite obvious that the graphics will be reduced on the 3DS, is what I'm trying to say. If you just take a look at the footage we've been shown thus far, it's very apparent that the 3DS version doesn't look as good as the Wii U version. It's not surprising that the models and textures are reduced by quite a bit.
It's a given, is what I'm trying to say. Graphics will obviously be worse on the 3DS compared to the Wii U in EVERY instance, guaranteed.

The problem here is the speed of the CPU. It's very simple to just cut down on the poly-count of a model or reduce the quality of a texture. Where it becomes a little more tricky is when you need to tackle things like long loading times, reduced frame-rate (which means lag!! the kind you find in Melee if you play 4 players on Fountain of Dreams, or when you perform the "Black-Hole Glitch") and even just the actual speed of the game itself. If you notice the gameplay footage we've been shown thus far, the 3DS footage is slow, floaty, and very brawl-like in general, where as if you look at the WiiU match with Sakurai as Megaman playing against Mario, the speed of the game runs at a pretty respectable pace. Obviously, it could be just that the development team hasn't bothered to tinker around with the physics engine on the 3DS yet, and focused more on porting a playable version of "brawl" onto the 3DS to work with, but it's something to think about.

Still, I have faith in the development team of Namco Bandai and Sakurai. It's going to be hard, but things are going to need to change, and perhaps some characters are going to need to be cut (I'm looking at you, PT). But if they want a playable handheld smash, you gotta do what you gotta do.

--but yeah. What kynxe said: Brawl runs bad because of the game, not the console. With Smash3DS, the processor speed is a hard limitation that walls them from doing certain things because it could result in lag and unsmooth gameplay. Some characters and other aspects of smash are going to have to change as a result of that.
 

FlareHabanero

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I'm not sure about it. The Smash 3DS trailers don't seem to indicate that yet.
Keep in mind that the game is still in the middle of development and details could change as time goes on. While it's true it's far enough ahead to have actual in-game footage, it's by no means finalized. Especially in the case of the 3DS, where as time goes on changes to not overwhelm the hardware could be necessary in order to prevent any problems. The can range from reducing the quality of models further or dropping the frame rate.
 
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