Step Yo Game up Cleveland : >8/

[Bead]

I left my virginity in ur basement. XD

 

[King~]

Bead i hate you


anyways there seems to be nothing on the 26th and the only thing that could be possible is WaB but thats looking more towards OCT.

anyways whats everyone 26th look like i want atleast 15 if not more than last time??

 

[solecalibur]

Visting my parents that weekend doubt i'll be able to go

 

[Eddie G]

It's a maybe for me.

 

[Earth_Swords_Man_009]

That's a bit early right?

I mean I'm fine with it but I was just thinking it was early.

Anyways, I'm a good to go for this.

 

[Bead]

Yes
King, I love you. No homo.

 

[jokey665]

Can we get some more counterpicks for the next one? Pleeeeeeeeeeeeease?

 

[Eddie G]

Yeah what Jokey said. Japes and Distant Planet plzkthnx?

 

[fromundaman]

Meh, TBH, I can def understand not wanting Japes on there, as much as I like it. DP though, I think should be on, and PS1, as much as I love it, is not a real neutral stage

That being said, I am not against having it as a neutral XD

 

[King~]

hell no to japes

ill consider DP

although i dont see in what MUs it offer a valid CP, imo it adds nothing

 

[Eddie G]

Adds nothing? Tell that to Beegs. Boy can handle that stage like no other. Imo it's not always best to associate counterpicks by just matchups alone, but by the possible strategic element they can add to the game. In the case of Beegs on Distant Planet, it's about controlling the center from under the leaf while trying to trap the opponent on the left side.

And why hell no to Japes? Snake gets Halberd to kill early so why can't Peach/lighter characters get Japes to survive on? If Falco is the only reason for your denial of Japes then I dunno what to say...

What about Green Greens? It's only as janky as halberd tbh. WC/Washington allows it, Praxis loves it, so it can't be that bad.

 

[jokey665]

Adds nothing? Tell that to Beegs. Boy can handle that stage like no other. Imo it's not always best to associate counterpicks by just matchups alone, but by the possible strategic element they can add to the game. In the case of Beegs on Distant Planet, it's about controlling the center from under the leaf while trying to trap the opponent on the left side.

And why hell no to Japes? Snake gets Halberd to kill early so why can't Peach/lighter characters get Japes to survive on? If Falco is the only reason for your denial of Japes then I dunno what to say...

What about Green Greens? It's only as janky as halberd tbh. WC/Washington allows it, Praxis loves it, so it can't be that bad.

Listen to this man. Give me Japes and Green Greens (and Pipes if you're feeling generous).

 

[King~]

overall japes is incredibly campy stage and can lead to some very janky deaths. and i dont support as a legal couterpick.


good point on DP ill think about first and foremost gotta see if im even holding the event


no jus no on green greens

(sorry it took so long was playing wi-fi lolz)

 

[Eddie G]

Alright, fair enough. Although remember Japes is legal in Melee where there are those pretty little things called shine spikes, and no swimming in the water. Eh? Eh?

Man up Brawl ruleset. xD

 

[jokey665]

Make Hanenbow legal and I'll never ask for another stage ever again. :D

 

[fromundaman]

Ummm... remember how east and I believe maybe also WC has Japes as banned? Honestly, tell me why you think Port Town is banned. Now think on those arguements. They all apply to Japes, and on top of that it encourages running the clock. I love Japes as a stage, but it honestly has good reasons for banning.

DP also offers projectiles, so it can be strategic.

Green Greens is a lol stage... It's not even a counter/ban. It's just a plain old banned stage. To give you an idea, Port Town is a counter/banned stage on the official SBR stage list.

 

[Eddie G]

No, WC does not have Japes as banned from what I remember, or maybe I'm thinking of Washington. And East coast is picky with their stages as it is.

Well this is the way I see it. Some of these counterpick stages heavily favor certain characters and by "certain" I mean a very slim list, like...to a silly extent. Snake on Halberd and MK/GnW/Wario on Norfair are two examples. Japes may encourage running the clock but Norfair also encourages this tactic. It only has one obstacle that can potentially kill, that being the Klaptrap, but it's not like the Klaptrap just appears randomly.

So tell me, aside from encouraging the tactic of camping/running out the clock (which isn't uncommon in competition for this game anyway...) and having one very predictable obstacle; what exacly is so inexcusable about this stage that promotes the "banhammer"? I just don't see it. Show Falco/Peach/Lucario players some love. FD shouldn't be the only "excessive survival" option against characters like Snake/Olimar/MK...

 

[fromundaman]

No, WC does not have Japes as banned from what I remember, or maybe I'm thinking of Washington. And East coast is picky with their stages as it is.

Well this is the way I see it. Some of these counterpick stages heavily favor certain characters and by "certain" I mean a very slim list, like...to a silly extent. Snake on Halberd and MK/GnW/Wario on Norfair are two examples. Japes may encourage running the clock but Norfair also encourages this tactic. It only has one obstacle that can potentially kill, that being the Klaptrap, but it's not like the Klaptrap just appears randomly.

So tell me, aside from encouraging the tactic of camping/running out the clock (which isn't uncommon in competition for this game anyway...) and having one very predictable obstacle; what exacly is so inexcusable about this stage that promotes the "banhammer"? I just don't see it. Show Falco/Peach/Lucario players some love. FD shouldn't be the only "excessive survival" option against characters like Snake/Olimar/MK...

Heh, I did this just the other day... let's compare Japes and Port Town, which most people assume without a doubt should be banned:

-Hazards: Both levels have predictable and lethal hazards. However, contrary to popular belief, Klaptrap kills earlier than the cars. However, Klaptrap can occasionally be harder to see coming (though that is a weak arguement), and mostly can be easily comboed/grab released into for an instant kill. Hell, in certain parts of the map, just holding them can be enough... No grab release necessary!

Floor hazards (Water vs Track):

That track does a ****load of damage, this is no lie. However, it will keep you alive. For a whole lot of characters, this is not always true with the water, especially if you land on the left side. On top of that, if it takes you a bit to recover, say due to a tether recovery or sub-par recovery, then odds are klaptrap is coming to finish it, and there won't be much you can do.
Also, I was going to throw in that Japes ***** tethers, but then, both of these stages do...

Character advantages, ledges, and playstyle:

Japes encourages timing out the clock, with it's huge blastzones, many ledges, and platform layout. it almost completely negates vertical kills, invalidating many characters' kill moves. Now granted, that is also true of some other stages, like Pictochat, but this stage also has pretty far side zones for a stage with such high blastzones, especially on the left it feels like, making obtaining kills difficult.
The side platforms greatly encourage camping. Going from ledge to ledge isn't too hard for a lot of characters either, nor is attacking from the ledge through the platform then regrabbing the ledge.
It's true that time-outs are not a strange phenomena in Brawl, but no stage should be picked with the purpose of timing out the opponent, as is the problem, it seems, with Japes and Norfair (You also forgot to mention how well Jiggs camps on Norfair btw).
By comparison, Port Town has fairly standard blastzones, and the stage is usually just flat.

japes also gives huge advantages to a number of characters, while giving huge disadvantages to a lot of others. Now I know the point in counterpicks is to help your character and hinder theirs by picking a stage that helps you, but this stage is almost as bad as Luigi's Mansion since it ***** a good portion of the cast while greatly helping certain others. Characters like ROB, MK, Lucario, Falco, Kirby, Peach, DK and Jiggs thrive here, whereas most of the rest of the cast suffers greatly from either being stripped of KO options, gimping options, or recovery options. On top of this, a large portion of the cast has great difficulty doing anything to a player who knows the stage well, and ledge camps intelligently with a character who thrives at doing that on this stage (MK, Falco, and Jiggs, for example.).
It also completely screws over tethers.

Port Town, on the other hand, only does the screwing over tethers part, and makes everyone suffer from landing lag on the main part due to a lack of edges to grab.


I believe I had more, but I forget.

 

[ArgentStew]

overall japes is incredibly campy stage and can lead to some very janky deaths. and i dont support as a legal couterpick.


good point on DP ill think about first and foremost gotta see if im even holding the event

You can camp DP just as hard as Japes... Beegs used that strategy on me the first time he played me on that stage... If a character such as one of the one's we play gets the lead, it becomes a battle to see who can camp under the middle platform the longest with our disjointed hitboxes...

 

[King~]

there is no justifiable reason for japes to be on imo

and no japes isnt on on WC(or rather WC regionals),its pretty much only on in ohio(maybe other small states)

 

[Earth_Swords_Man_009]

Ya know, you guys could just ban that stage when you win. ^_^

 

[ArgentStew]

Then by that logic, add Japes and ban it when you win...

I'm not trying to justify Japes... I'm saying if you don't want campy stages, then keep both Japes and DP off...

 

[jokey665]

if you don't want campy stages we should probably ban smashville, dojo was able to take it to time when he and dehf both had two stocks left. sounds pretty campy to me.

 

[King~]

if you want to be that black and white about it sure.........


but i'm not

besides i dont agree with that point of view on that match but thats not up for argument

 

[Eddie G]

Heh, I did this just the other day... let's compare Japes and Port Town, which most people assume without a doubt should be banned:

-Hazards: Both levels have predictable and lethal hazards. However, contrary to popular belief, Klaptrap kills earlier than the cars. However, Klaptrap can occasionally be harder to see coming (though that is a weak arguement), and mostly can be easily comboed/grab released into for an instant kill. Hell, in certain parts of the map, just holding them can be enough... No grab release necessary!

Ok but if you compare the two hazards further, Cars take up the entire bottom/top half of the screen for a set period. The Klaptrap may arguably kill earlier then the cars do, but it still does not interfere with the match at all if/when the match is taking place on top of any of the three platforms. Only when one is in the designated areas for it to appear will he/she be in danger, which makes perfect sense...right?

Also, grab releases and such into the klaptrap are situational anyway. You have to be grabbed and successfully positioned in the necessary spot for the tactic to fall through. In all honesty that is just as cheap as a DDD walkoff kill on Castle Siege, if not less; and Castle Siege is still legal. Even though my point about Castle Siege only pertains to one character, it still stands.

Floor hazards (Water vs Track):

That track does a ****load of damage, this is no lie. However, it will keep you alive. For a whole lot of characters, this is not always true with the water, especially if you land on the left side. On top of that, if it takes you a bit to recover, say due to a tether recovery or sub-par recovery, then odds are klaptrap is coming to finish it, and there won't be much you can do.
Also, I was going to throw in that Japes ***** tethers, but then, both of these stages do...

Ok, so Olimar/Diddy/ZSS/similar characters have to be more careful. I don't see the problem with that. I don't see why a counterpick should have to cater to everyone's recovery options. A counterpick is a counterpick for a reason.

Character advantages, ledges, and playstyle:

Japes encourages timing out the clock, with it's huge blastzones, many ledges, and platform layout. it almost completely negates vertical kills, invalidating many characters' kill moves. Now granted, that is also true of some other stages, like Pictochat, but this stage also has pretty far side zones for a stage with such high blastzones, especially on the left it feels like, making obtaining kills difficult.
The side platforms greatly encourage camping. Going from ledge to ledge isn't too hard for a lot of characters either, nor is attacking from the ledge through the platform then regrabbing the ledge.
It's true that time-outs are not a strange phenomena in Brawl, but no stage should be picked with the purpose of timing out the opponent, as is the problem, it seems, with Japes and Norfair (You also forgot to mention how well Jiggs camps on Norfair btw).
By comparison, Port Town has fairly standard blastzones, and the stage is usually just flat.

It may encourage the tactic, but there is no guarantee that stalling is the purpose for the stage being selected. A player (like myself) may pick the stage just for a safer and longer survival option. Also, think about it, why should Snake/DDD/Wario/Falco/MK etc. be the only ones who can camp a character to bloody hell and back? On a stage like Japes, other characters (especially those who also have projectiles) can CAMP THEM BACK by choice if they are able to establish a lead and secure a safe location. Ok sure...this is exactly what you brought up, the encouragement of camping/timing out the clock, but I say again: why should those characters (moreso than the rest tbh) be the only ones who can camp the **** out of a match? I say spread the option around the cast, not just everyone's "favorite five". Japes at your service.

japes also gives huge advantages to a number of characters, while giving huge disadvantages to a lot of others. Now I know the point in counterpicks is to help your character and hinder theirs by picking a stage that helps you, but this stage is almost as bad as Luigi's Mansion since it ***** a good portion of the cast while greatly helping certain others. Characters like ROB, MK, Lucario, Falco, Kirby, Peach, DK and Jiggs thrive here, whereas most of the rest of the cast suffers greatly from either being stripped of KO options, gimping options, or recovery options. On top of this, a large portion of the cast has great difficulty doing anything to a player who knows the stage well, and ledge camps intelligently with a character who thrives at doing that on this stage (MK, Falco, and Jiggs, for example.).
It also completely screws over tethers.

Jiggs is a crap character overall anyway, ROB's moves are basically telegraphed from a mile away and stale faster than a Dr. Pepper left out in the sunlight, and Peach players take a gamble by going to Japes because not only does it heighten the chances for her survival...it also hinders her already sub-par KO ability. So only by knowing the stage and playing smart on it will players of these characters win their matches. Hence...counterpick material.

Too bad for tether recoveries. They'll just have to play carefully. This also applies to lighter characters who face Snake/DDD on a stage like Halberd, which has a exceedingly low ceiling, don't you think?

Japes is a fair stage, it helps some characters who need it (a lot), hinders some others as any counterpick stage would inevitably do. It is still counterpick material in my eyes. King Yoshi, I respect your opinion and your entitlement to host a tournament with whatever rules you see fit, but I'm just getting it out there that I'm personally not convinced of Japes being worthy of a banhammer, that's all.

 

[Revven]

Dunno if I can make it, if I have tests that coming week I probably won't show. It really depends on my schedule, most likely if I did go, I'd just go for friendlies. Tight on money, even if it was $5.

 

[Earth_Swords_Man_009]

I'm just gonna say, whatever floats the boat.

If DP is off, then fine, I'll have to what else is on.

I do appreciate the comment about me on DP King Beef. It seems you listened to me when I was chatting about that stage. lol.

 

[Eddie G]

Haha no problem. You made me your ***** there in game 3. Definitely an insta-ban against you at any tournament where it's legal from now on. Well either that or I can try and be ballsy enough to ditto you there. Peach ain't gonna cut it there.

TYM's ruleset is boss. I'll be sure to adopt it when I get things going myself.

 

[ithrowthings]

Not sure if I can make it to this just yet. This girl is making things just straight up impossible for me right now. That being said, I can probly make it but if I ditch out last second, be happy for me.

 

[King~]

check the neoh group they require ur assitance itt


@KB: understandable we just have two diffrent opinons on the matter.

 

[Earth_Swords_Man_009]

Good luck ITT.

 

[fromundaman]

Hmmm... I don't know much about DP, so I'll take you guys' word for it. I figured the fact you could attack through the platform and the stage provided projectiles would discourage camping though. *shrugs*



Also, KB, I really hoped you would do this (Reply in an intelligent manner). I don't know about you, but I love intelligent debates.

Ok but if you compare the two hazards further, Cars take up the entire bottom/top half of the screen for a set period. The Klaptrap may arguably kill earlier then the cars do, but it still does not interfere with the match at all if/when the match is taking place on top of any of the three platforms. Only when one is in the designated areas for it to appear will he/she be in danger, which makes perfect sense...right?

Depends on the phase. The cars do take up more space, but for less time, and other than on 1 transformation, they are less 'in the way' than the Klaptrap, who can kill you for grabbing 4 of the 6 ledges on JJ, jumping between platforms, or being in the water (but that's not really something I can reproach the stage. If you're in the water, you either were being silly, trying to run back to the left side, or got knocked in.).
I mean, what you say does make sense, but it is also the case for PTAD. However, while Klaptrap does take up less space on the screen, as mentioned before, it strikes at more strategical places, and comes onscreen much more often than those cars do. As for it not affecting battle on the platforms...

Also, grab releases and such into the klaptrap are situational anyway. You have to be grabbed and successfully positioned in the necessary spot for the tactic to fall through. In all honesty that is just as cheap as a DDD walkoff kill on Castle Siege, if not less; and Castle Siege is still legal. Even though my point about Castle Siege only pertains to one character, it still stands.

Except this is much, much easier to do. I mean yeah, it is the same principle, but the difference is, most characters can do it, and do it easily for an instant kill. Boost grabs will usually get your opponent from the ledge so long as you didn't start from the middle of the center platform, and will always reach the edge on the side platforms, allowing for grab releases. CGs can also get you to the Klaptrap ledge easily. A lot of other throws will also knock you into the water. For example, MK's Dthrow and Kirby's Uthrow will stagespike you into the water right where the Klaptrap comes by.

Ok, so Olimar/Diddy/ZSS/similar characters have to be more careful. I don't see the problem with that. I don't see why a counterpick should have to cater to everyone's recovery options. A counterpick is a counterpick for a reason.

This is true. I was just throwing it in because I want to get every aspect of the stage that affects play down.

It may encourage the tactic, but there is no guarantee that stalling is the purpose for the stage being selected. A player (like myself) may pick the stage just for a safer and longer survival option. Also, think about it, why should Snake/DDD/Wario/Falco/MK etc. be the only ones who can camp a character to bloody hell and back? On a stage like Japes, other characters (especially those who also have projectiles) can CAMP THEM BACK by choice if they are able to establish a lead and secure a safe location. Ok sure...this is exactly what you brought up, the encouragement of camping/timing out the clock, but I say again: why should those characters (moreso than the rest tbh) be the only ones who can camp the **** out of a match? I say spread the option around the cast, not just everyone's "favorite five". Japes at your service.

Except not only does it encourage camping as a stage, which in itself means this stage affects the nature of the game, which is a criteria for a ban, it still encourages a certain few to camp harder than the rest. On top of this, this stage is set up in a way that you can kind of ghetto circle camp by just camping the right edge, then jumping to the water to go to the left side, then come back. For some characters, like MK, Kirby, Peach, Jiggs, ROB or Falco, you can do this, then just go from edge to edge until you get back to the right side (And if you pay attention to the clock/Klaptrap, you can even go edge to edge under the main platform, Uairing through it along the way!). You do have a point with the fact that it allows other characters to camp effectively for a change, but not only is the point you bring up more of a game mechanic problem than anything, but the ones who usually camp well still do on this stage as well.

Jiggs is a crap character overall anyway, ROB's moves are basically telegraphed from a mile away and stale faster than a Dr. Pepper left out in the sunlight, and Peach players take a gamble by going to Japes because not only does it heighten the chances for her survival...it also hinders her already sub-par KO ability. So only by knowing the stage and playing smart on it will players of these characters win their matches. Hence...counterpick material.

Those characters being how they are is exactly why giving them a stage like this where they excel would be a good thing. Sadly, this stage does meet some of the criterias for a ban, hence why only MW still has it.

Too bad for tether recoveries. They'll just have to play carefully. This also applies to lighter characters who face Snake/DDD on a stage like Halberd, which has a exceedingly low ceiling, don't you think?

Agreed again.

Japes is a fair stage, it helps some characters who need it (a lot), hinders some others as any counterpick stage would inevitably do. It is still counterpick material in my eyes. King Yoshi, I respect your opinion and your entitlement to host a tournament with whatever rules you see fit, but I'm just getting it out there that I'm personally not convinced of Japes being worthy of a banhammer, that's all.

I agree it helps some a lot and hinders some a lot. That's not my problem with it. I feel what qualifies it for a ban are the same things that justify Summit and Spear Pillar being banned: Strong hazards and more importantly, a stage that encourages camping, and, to a much more limited extent than the two I just mentioned, circle camping.
KYosh, I also respect your opinion on this, and any other TO's for that matter.
I'm just throwing out my opinion out there. As much as I do enjoy this stage, and how much it benefits my character, I don't think it should be legal.

 

[jokey665]

Sadly, this stage does meet some of the criterias for a ban, hence why only MW still has it.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=219725
Texas is midwest?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=243966
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=243828
New York is midwest?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=247690
Virginia is midwest?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=248717
Pennsylvania?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=148906
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200283
California?

 

[fromundaman]

Oops, thought it was only MW.
Also, doesn't PA qualify as MW?
Good point though.

I guess I'll rephrase that as most states have it banned

 

[Earth_Swords_Man_009]

I would love to add my own comments into this but I can't as of now. Just a bit too busy.

If I see something about DP show up, then yes, I will start adding my own comments and reasoning's to it.

Also about the "ban when you win the match" makes sense. Lets say I lost, the first round and I hate Jungle Japes or it's just not good for my character. Logically, I would not go there. So I win my counter pick stage. It's their turn to do decide where we go. But before any of this actions go down, you decide to ban a stage. If it's a Falco, Lucario, Wolf, ROB, Kirby (there's others that I'm missing) then Ban that stage. That's the only reason why I said "Ban it if you win" statement came in. I wasn't trying to be a smartass but more or less explaining in a very commen sense reasoning.

Also just for you King Beef and Yoshi - http://yourethemannowdog.com/

 

[Eddie G]

Hmmm... I don't know much about DP, so I'll take you guys' word for it. I figured the fact you could attack through the platform and the stage provided projectiles would discourage camping though. *shrugs*

The only thing that comes to mind regarding Distant Planet is the fight to control the left side of the stage. That is NOT criteria for a ban. I just wanted to throw that out there before anyone brings that up. Also, a player would need to have horrible DI, next to no knowledge of the stage, or just be a total moron in order to be caught by the hazard on the right, so that's not even an issue either. Neither is the temporary waterfall. This stage is just as legit as Castle Siege and yes...Halberd (which I've always been iffy on anyway).

Also, KB, I really hoped you would do this (Reply in an intelligent manner). I don't know about you, but I love intelligent debates.

I do as well, if I don't feel lazy that is.

Depends on the phase. The cars do take up more space, but for less time, and other than on 1 transformation, they are less 'in the way' than the Klaptrap, who can kill you for grabbing 4 of the 6 ledges on JJ, jumping between platforms, or being in the water (but that's not really something I can reproach the stage. If you're in the water, you either were being silly, trying to run back to the left side, or got knocked in.).
I mean, what you say does make sense, but it is also the case for PTAD. However, while Klaptrap does take up less space on the screen, as mentioned before, it strikes at more strategical places, and comes onscreen much more often than those cars do. As for it not affecting battle on the platforms...

Ok...half a second difference between the two, it really doesn't matter and isn't important enough to dive into. Yes, as I've already acknowledged...the Klaptrap comes up in designated areas every single time with a 10 second interval between each visit. So that does force players to be more careful, but it's still not a completely random and unpredictable hazard, thus not being a ban-worthy element. If you're in those designated areas or have been put in a situation where you're forced into one of those areas...you're doing something wrong. And again, even when pertaining to battles on the platforms, if you're caught and forced into a "Klaptrap spot", you're doing something wrong.

Except this is much, much easier to do. I mean yeah, it is the same principle, but the difference is, most characters can do it, and do it easily for an instant kill. Boost grabs will usually get your opponent from the ledge so long as you didn't start from the middle of the center platform, and will always reach the edge on the side platforms, allowing for grab releases. CGs can also get you to the Klaptrap ledge easily. A lot of other throws will also knock you into the water. For example, MK's Dthrow and Kirby's Uthrow will stagespike you into the water right where the Klaptrap comes by.

We're comparing this to DDD's d-throw off the side of a stage here...let's not bring up the concept of difficulty shall we? Myself being a rather technical Melee space animal player, I can assure you that there is no comparison to be made about these tactics, both are exceedingly easy to perform. However, do you mean to tell me that just having one character be able to perform such a tactic (DDD/Castle Siege) is more reasonable than having several, if not the entire cast be endowed with an available tactic of similar results? If anything that just ADDS to the concept of overall fairness that you are trying to tell me this stage doesn't have. Again, you get caught for an easy KO then you're doing something wrong, but at least MORE THAN ONE CHARACTER CAN PUNISH YOU IN THIS FASHION. And also, it's not as if this "easy kill option" is fullproof; The Klaptrap is not forever present, just like the phase of Castle Siege that enables DDD's walkoff option...correct?

This is true. I was just throwing it in because I want to get every aspect of the stage that affects play down.

Understood.

Except not only does it encourage camping as a stage, which in itself means this stage affects the nature of the game, which is a criteria for a ban, it still encourages a certain few to camp harder than the rest. On top of this, this stage is set up in a way that you can kind of ghetto circle camp by just camping the right edge, then jumping to the water to go to the left side, then come back. For some characters, like MK, Kirby, Peach, Jiggs, ROB or Falco, you can do this, then just go from edge to edge until you get back to the right side (And if you pay attention to the clock/Klaptrap, you can even go edge to edge under the main platform, Uairing through it along the way!). You do have a point with the fact that it allows other characters to camp effectively for a change, but not only is the point you bring up more of a game mechanic problem than anything, but the ones who usually camp well still do on this stage as well.

And? That's still completely circumstantial and doesn't amount to anything more than mere speculation. You don't know why a player may select that stage, although you can try to guesstimate why based on the character they're using, but that's about all you can do. It could be to survive, it could be to camp, it could be to go for the most viable KO option, it could be for a number of reasons.


Circle camping isn't nearly as full-proof as you make it out to be and you know it. In order to even ATTEMPT to circle camp, one must put themselves near the water if they're Peach/MK/etc. which is disadvantageous any way you look at it; and if you think to bring up air-camping as part of that issue, I have four words to address that...Genesis, DEHF, Dojo, and Smashville. Kirby, MK, DDD, ROB, Wario and plenty of other characters air-camp on pretty much any other stage so Japes shouldn't and isn't going to be a scapegoat for any complaints of air-camping.

Then more power to my previous point of those who should have an equilibrium against the already potent campers if they are to select this stage against the latter.

Those characters being how they are is exactly why giving them a stage like this where they excel would be a good thing. Sadly, this stage does meet some of the criterias for a ban, hence why only MW still has it.

All of what you have presented to convince me thus far has all been circumstantial at best. The Klaptrap, while dangerous, is still not a fullproof kill option when utilized by a player from the stage since it is not forever present to be used that way. It has a set period of appearance in two guaranteed locations, thus not being a random hazard. The "random" element that I believe guides your opinion is the situational collision with the Klaptrap while a match is going on. The hazard itself is not and never has been random. Air-camping and projectile camping are present in nearly (if not all) every other stage in the game, Japes is not the only place where this occurs. If you disagree, Dojo on SMASHVILLE against a TOP FALCO says otherwise.

Jokey already came in for the save. Midwest is not the only region that allows/may allow Japes. I knew I wasn't mistaken when I brought that up.

 

[Ballistaboy]

Ok, so Olimar/Diddy/ZSS/similar characters have to be more careful. I don't see the problem with that. I don't see why a counterpick should have to cater to everyone's recovery options. A counterpick is a counterpick for a reason.

FALSE! Diddy can recover as long as he gets out of the water before the edge of the stage with his over-b, double jump, and up-B.. just wanted to throw that in there.. diddy has very sexy and safe horizontal recovery... It's the vertical recovery we have to worry about.

 

[fromundaman]

The only thing that comes to mind regarding Distant Planet is the fight to control the left side of the stage. That is NOT criteria for a ban. I just wanted to throw that out there before anyone brings that up. Also, a player would need to have horrible DI, next to no knowledge of the stage, or just be a total moron in order to be caught by the hazard on the right, so that's not even an issue either. Neither is the temporary waterfall. This stage is just as legit as Castle Siege and yes...Halberd (which I've always been iffy on anyway).

Again, don't really know much about this stage, so can't say much.

Ok...half a second difference between the two, it really doesn't matter and isn't important enough to dive into. Yes, as I've already acknowledged...the Klaptrap comes up in designated areas every single time with a 10 second interval between each visit. So that does force players to be more careful, but it's still not a completely random and unpredictable hazard, thus not being a ban-worthy element. If you're in those designated areas or have been put in a situation where you're forced into one of those areas...you're doing something wrong. And again, even when pertaining to battles on the platforms, if you're caught and forced into a "Klaptrap spot", you're doing something wrong.

I am very well aware of the timer on JJ, and in fact hate to even play friendlies there with the timer off as a result.
As for doing something wrong to be caught in there, sure. To be forced into that situation though.... I disagree. Dash grabs and boost grabs allow a lot of characters to slide while grabbing you, which makes getting forced into a Klaptrap spot easier, especially from the side platforms. That being said, it is still very much possible to avoid being put there, that is true.

We're comparing this to DDD's d-throw off the side of a stage here...let's not bring up the concept of difficulty shall we? Myself being a rather technical Melee space animal player, I can assure you that there is no comparison to be made about these tactics, both are exceedingly easy to perform. However, do you mean to tell me that just having one character be able to perform such a tactic (DDD/Castle Siege) is more reasonable than having several, if not the entire cast be endowed with an available tactic of similar results? If anything that just ADDS to the concept of overall fairness that you are trying to tell me this stage doesn't have. Again, you get caught for an easy KO then you're doing something wrong, but at least MORE THAN ONE CHARACTER CAN PUNISH YOU IN THIS FASHION. And also, it's not as if this "easy kill option" is fullproof; The Klaptrap is not forever present, just like the phase of Castle Siege that enables DDD's walkoff option...correct?

That's true. In fact, it's not only D3 who can do that on Castle Seige, but I get your point.

And? That's still completely circumstantial and doesn't amount to anything more than mere speculation. You don't know why a player may select that stage, although you can try to guesstimate why based on the character they're using, but that's about all you can do. It could be to survive, it could be to camp, it could be to go for the most viable KO option, it could be for a number of reasons.


Circle camping isn't nearly as full-proof as you make it out to be and you know it. In order to even ATTEMPT to circle camp, one must put themselves near the water if they're Peach/MK/etc. which is disadvantageous any way you look at it; and if you think to bring up air-camping as part of that issue, I have four words to address that...Genesis, DEHF, Dojo, and Smashville. Kirby, MK, DDD, ROB, Wario and plenty of other characters air-camp on pretty much any other stage so Japes shouldn't and isn't going to be a scapegoat for any complaints of air-camping.

Then more power to my previous point of those who should have an equilibrium against the already potent campers if they are to select this stage against the latter.

All of this is true. However, I am just saying that it is a reason to pick the stage, which is not normal, but, TBH, it is not the only legal stage that gets picked for that reason...

I'm not saying that it's fool-proof. If it were fool-proof, then it would have been banned a long time ago with Summit, Hyrule Temple, Port Town, Spear Pillar, and other such stages. However, it is still doable and effective, despite being not quite as effective as on the afore-mentioned stages.

Also, yes, camping does occur on other stages, and there should be a solution to that. However, in this case, I feel fighting fire with fire is a bad idea and decreases the overall quality of the game, since it further encourages playing keep-away rather than the actual game.

All of what you have presented to convince me thus far has all been circumstantial at best. The Klaptrap, while dangerous, is still not a fullproof kill option when utilized by a player from the stage since it is not forever present to be used that way. It has a set period of appearance in two guaranteed locations, thus not being a random hazard. The "random" element that I believe guides your opinion is the situational collision with the Klaptrap while a match is going on. The hazard itself is not and never has been random. Air-camping and projectile camping are present in nearly (if not all) every other stage in the game, Japes is not the only place where this occurs. If you disagree, Dojo on SMASHVILLE against a TOP FALCO says otherwise.

It's definitely not fool-proof, but neither are the cars on PTAD, yet they seem to be potent enough to warrant a ban. This hazard shows up every 10 seconds, and can be easily 'comboed' into (by comboed, I mean the previous throw/grab releases/etc. we have been discussing), which IMO, while it is not a fool-proof kill method, it is an effective one. It could be considered situational, but much less so IMO than most things, considering there seems to be at least 1 Klaptrap death per game or two on this stage. Sure, some of that can be attributed to people not knowing the stage well enough, but often enough, it is also a result of being 'comboed' into it.

It's true that apes is not the only place this occurs. Just one of the places it occurs on most frequently.

Jokey already came in for the save. Midwest is not the only region that allows/may allow Japes. I knew I wasn't mistaken when I brought that up.

Yup. My mistake on that one.

 

[ithrowthings]

I think TYM's stage list had less haters. Too lazy to read everyone's stage opinions but you're all wrong.

 

[Eddie G]

TYM's stage list is ****ing awesome, that's why. The most diversity I've seen in a stage list without it becoming ridiculous. It was beautiful.

@ Fromundaman- I'll get back to the debate soon, feeling too lazy and tired to respond atm.